PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: drJack on May 21, 2010, 11:48:19 am
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Hello all. I'm a prospect member of the Setting team, and I'd really like to have your feedback.
Planeshift is full of quests. Every quest (or almost everyone of them) has one or more challenges inside.
I'd like to know the challenge you like the most: the ones that you want more.
And I'd like also your feed-back about the other types of challenge you like less. So, someone could improve them.
Here we are. A list of the challenges I found:
Travel challenge: where a player need to go to another NPC and talk him (or give him something).
Hunt challenge: where a player need to give to a NPC some item found on a monster.
Research challenge: where a player need to give to a NPC some item found on the ground or to buy it on a merchant.
Riddle challenge: where a player need to give an answer to a riddle.
Setting challenge: where a player need to give an answer to a setting/history related question.
I'd like to know your opinion about these types of quest, especially your favourite (and, if you have time, also: why you like it), and, for the one who want to give more:
- Do you think there's something we can do to improve the challenges in the quests?
- If you think there's any other kind of challenge, tell me, and I'll add them.
- If you want, I'd like also to know what are your favourite quests (until now).
I'll be grateful for every information, suggestion, or feedback.
Your opinion matters.
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Personally I'd like to see more quests that encourage more player interaction. For example the quest requires the player to get something that only a player character can provide. If the player in question doesn't have the still to provide the needed item then they need to seek out and meet another player character who can craft the item in question. This would help support player crafting and also encourage more players to meet and work with other players. Group quests might be nice where two or more characters need to work together to complete the quest. Now sure if group quests would be possible though.
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Travel challenge: where a player need to go to another NPC and talk him (or give him something).
honestly: just boring and annoying most of the time
Hunt challenge: where a player need to give to a NPC some item found on a monster.
pretty much the same as the travelling ones
imo those 2 kinds are the plain old all-day quests you can find in any hack'n'slay game you want - not really what I personally enjoy
Research challenge: where a player need to give to a NPC some item found on the ground or to buy it on a merchant.
those are the fun ones for me after all :) they could be extended quite a bit, though. I only recall very few of those.
Riddle challenge: where a player need to give an answer to a riddle.
those really depend on the quest. sometimes they're pretty annoying because you know your answer is right, but you just can't find the right trigger.
also it sometimes happens that a supposedly matching answer isn't accepted because the author simply didn't think of that possibility, so those are probably the hardest ones to write ;)
on the other hand there were really disappointing ones for me as they were just too easy - especially with the new quest systems (e.g. a riddle that used to be tricky if you didn't know it already now got 2 answer possibilities of which one just doesn't make sense - think it's fixed already, though).
Setting challenge: where a player need to give an answer to a setting/history related question.
those are fine for me as you learn a bit about the settings, etc. even though they can be tricky to find out
the kind of quests I enjoyed the most are the ones that are somewhat out-the-line, e.g. the one in which you serve that little clacker *winks*
then as to what I'm personally missing: quests aren't depending enough on each other imho. most are just of the first 2 types you named which makes it rather boring after all.
I'd really like to see more quests that don't actually require that you have completed another one, but instead require some kind of knowledge you achieved during other quests.
e.g. in one quest you have to know a certain phrase in a certain accent (I hope you still have to know it) which you learned in another research quest. or in several quests you need items achieved during earlier ones, etc.
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Please go light on the riddles. ;D I always liked quests that give you info about settings, particularly the environment. Like what unimplemented cities and land features are around. And more quest options would be nice like: you can run this package across all of creation back to the person yourself and end the quest at some time in the future, or you can pay me and finish it now. ;) Or, I need this item, but this other item will also work.
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I prefer the killing ones :devil:
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Do I get an opinion on the matter?
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Personally I like the quests with some story behind them. Like for example, the quest where Lucky (the butcher ?) gets in trouble with the law ( i hope I did rememeber the name, I did this quest looooong time ago). It's nice, because a story develops with time, you don't have to run too much, except when you want to earn extra credit, which is a nice feature too. In this quest, you get small hints, who to talk to. I think, this is also a nice feature. It may often be enough to give smaller hints like "the last time I saw him, he wanted to get his knife sharpened", instead "he went to Harnquist to get his knifes sharpened". Players should think a bit, who would be able to do such things or ask around IC, if somebody knows who would sharpen knifes, or sell this or that, or has experience in mixing healing potions or whatever.
Just a sidenote, I think with the new npc-communication system, some quests get a bit too easy for my taste, because you get a pre-selection of people, you can talk to (just rightclick and see if he or she has a answer), maybe the good old 'about' would be enough to trigger some npc-answer-and-question chain, which then can be done in the new system. And yes, I know, it sometimes was a drag in the old times to find the right keyword (i remember, yelling at some poor NPC, because he refused to pay me, because he didn't understand me), but if you keep it simple, like "about lucky" and then switch to the new system, things would work
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i'd prefer a double way to access than having a forced idea of what people should use. so if you want to quest by typing you can go with it, if you prefer menu you can go with that
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Thanks for asking drJAck!
My favorites so far are:
Believe it or not the Guard at the BD that has a huge problem with taxes and there are two distinct ways of approaching the solution. First , it was a compelling story and the npc had a compelling need. And a big secret. It was well written to evoke compassion for the npc and his situation. Then you find there's not just one solution. Cool! I did the more involved way the first time then the easier {in time} way after the wipe. Maybe it was the freshness but I liked the more involved way. it really felt like my character had to really work on helping him, it wasn't easy, it took a lot of time, it had a lot of parts, I had to ask several other players to help with the parts I couldn't do myself {like the killling of mobs etc} that my character wasn't skilled enough to do. When I finally finished it, I felt like I had accomplished something.
Particularly liked the series of Mirra quests- those were really varied and felt like she had a real story that she was following... I wish the rewards might be a sample of each dish....
The story ones- like Frilaa's husband and then you find other ... angles to her story. Or the haos pollen one, and the Jirosh's family ones. Those are good. And the mysteries like Lori and Zak... and the riddles 'cause they are hard sometimes!
The traveling ones are good for learning the maps and the npcs but daunting when you're new.
Don't like the killing slashing ones. Starting out having to kill rats was not where I thought my character was going but there seemed no other way to train weapons. Wouldn't it be cool if in the arena there was a room with straw dummies for the very very early practicing? I still wish there were more ways to progress without killing...
Really like the ones with humor like Areaya's (sorry I can't remember any of the spellings of these names it seems) big adventure.
The best the very best ones for me are the ones where the npcs have involving stories that force your character into some kind of moral choice... it has been hard to 'walk away' from some probable reward because my character just wouldn't do that. The stakes are high with those- like the one that gets you into the winch the legal way. You know,, when you make that choice there's no way you will ever get some of the answers to some of the settings questions IC. So you have to be wiling to have part of the game not available to that character, ever.
Thanks for the quests. That's what has kept me playing, that and the rps.
Roled Rolak
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Personally I'd like to see more quests that encourage more player interaction. For example the quest requires the player to get something that only a player character can provide.
Yup, they are the social challenge. I avoided to insert them on the list, because I think that the choice become obvious with this ;). We're implementing them.
the kind of quests I enjoyed the most are the ones that are somewhat out-the-line, e.g. the one in which you serve that little clacker *winks*
then as to what I'm personally missing: quests aren't depending enough on each other imho. most are just of the first 2 types you named which makes it rather boring after all.
I'd really like to see more quests that don't actually require that you have completed another one, but instead require some kind of knowledge you achieved during other quests.
That's a very interesting point, I'll work on it immediatly. And thanks also for the deep answer :).
And more quest options would be nice like: you can run this package across all of creation back to the person yourself and end the quest at some time in the future, or you can pay me and finish it now.
Ehehe. I agree with you, giving player choice is always a good thing, but branching too deep is difficult. About this, the first rule, for me, is: "If you have to create a choice in a storyline, create two (or more) awesome stories. If one is awesome, and the other is only good, that's an error."
I prefer the killing ones :devil:
Yeah. Killing time :p.
Do I get an opinion on the matter?
Sure. Get it, it matters :thumbup:.
Personally I like the quests with some story behind them.
Uhm. If you have time I'd like to know more about this. I feel there's a deep message on this. Every quest has a story, so I think you want to say "some kind" of story. I understand that you prefer "hints" over than "obvious direction". And maybe you want to say also something else.
you don't have to run too much, except when you want to earn extra credit
Wow, that's tied with the optional branching in the quest. A good point. And easy to implement.
@ weltall and Zakrei:
It seems to me that you both would like to change (or add an option) to the menus of the quest. It's a more general topic, and the GUI is pretty away from my competence, for now :p. But thanks, I'll try to think on how to handle this from the inside of the quest.
Thanks for all! \\o//
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you just need to add some variant to the trigger
P: need pants. Give me quest. ...
P: allola sent me. need pants. ...
and so on can do a big list of these, the first is used for the menu now the rest can be used by players manually, before it worked this way but due to a bug we had to remove all the variants, now the bug is fixed and variants can be placed back, although it would never be first priority as before, as now we have menu.
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Thanks for asking drJAck!
Thanks to you for the answers, this topic is full of thankigs :innocent:.
I was busy with reply to the others when you posted, but here I'm.
Deepness of the story, compelling needs, humor and secrets are very important elements for me.They're more story elements than quest challenges, but don't worry, I'll be delighted to take care of them ;).
And the options you talked about (that are parts of quest challenges) are one of the principal ways to play the role of your character.
Particularly liked the series of Mirra quests- those were really varied and felt like she had a real story that she was following... I wish the rewards might be a sample of each dish....
Mirra's quests give you a nice way to manipulate the ambient. A nice thought. It could be used more.
The traveling ones are good for learning the maps and the npcs but daunting when you're new.
That's a point for the travelling ones. At least until you became more experienced.
Don't like the killing slashing ones. Starting out having to kill rats was not where I thought my character was going but there seemed no other way to train weapons. Wouldn't it be cool if in the arena there was a room with straw dummies for the very very early practicing? I still wish there were more ways to progress without killing...
That's a more rules issue. I'll try to find a solution, but I'm not sure I can do something. interesting point although.
The best the very best ones for me are the ones where the npcs have involving stories that force your character into some kind of moral choice...
Ehhh, moral choices. I love them :). I'll try to make them deeper, we'll see.
@ weltall:
Thanks for the explaination.
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Personally I like the quests with some story behind them.
Uhm. If you have time I'd like to know more about this. I feel there's a deep message on this. Every quest has a story, so I think you want to say "some kind" of story. I understand that you prefer "hints" over than "obvious direction". And maybe you want to say also something else.
Sorry, I wasn't really clear on this thought. What I liked about this quest, was the twists and the little things. Some quests are like "I need this or that, please fetch it", and some are like the ones with Lucky, you start by looking for a missing husband and end up with solving a murder mystery. And the character of Lucky sounds interesting, it would be fun to have him visit Kada Els for a drink or two (or spill them over some guests ;)) or to have Allelia gossiping a bit about him. During the quest, the story around Lucky develops, you hear some things about him, and the plot is fun. Another example are some quests with Zak, where you get to know a bit more about his background.
P.S: Many thanks to all the people who come up with the ideas for quests and who implement them \\o//
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I'll just say that with the menu system, I feel like the quest system in PS not only can now come of age, but more importantly that it is fun. I was able to do a few quests the other night and immerse in the game. It was pleasant. I support all quest ideas proposed in this thread. Nice work!
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All the challenges are good imo, but you have to look at it from different perspectives. If you are new to PS, the hunt and travel is nice and easy (for the most part) and lets you get to know places and more of the backstory.
After you've been around for a while, the travelling and hunting might be getting a bit monotonic. So then the researching and settings might be more to your liking. I've always loved a good riddle, but not everyone does and thinks it's annoying and timeconsuming. You can't please all no matter how hard you try. I also like the social challenges as mentioned earlier, gives you a chance to get to know people. Of course, that can also be a part of the other challenges as well. Like if you ask for directions etc.
For the improvement of challenges I'll leave that to you, I can't really think of anything right now that would make it better than it is. We have, imo, a good quest system. We even did before the Talk window was implemented, the NPC was sometimes just a bit narrow-minded in terms of triggers. An improvement on some quests would be the reward, especially in terms of PP. I don't think quests give nearly enough compared to what monsters give, given the time spent on some of the more challenging quests.
And finally, some of my favorite quests:
The Coming Eclipse - Because it is interlinked with other quests.
Lorytia Starhammer and the Clan Reunion - Yes, it is very long in sense of travelling, but the story is quite amusing.
Mirra Houphen's Road to Mastercook series - Because they have a nice challenge curve as you go along.
I would also like to add one that I didn't like at all:
Deadly Claws for Kelicha - The idea behind the quest is fine, the way it is played out is not. I won't give out spoilers, but anyone who has done this quest would most likely kill Kelicha either before they've finished the quest, or when they get the reward.
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Here we are. A list of the challenges I found:
Travel challenge: where a player need to go to another NPC and talk him (or give him something).
Hunt challenge: where a player need to give to a NPC some item found on a monster.
Research challenge: where a player need to give to a NPC some item found on the ground or to buy it on a merchant.
Riddle challenge: where a player need to give an answer to a riddle.
Setting challenge: where a player need to give an answer to a setting/history related question.
Riddle challenges are my favorite ones. They have simple qualities. For example, a couple of them were hard enough to not be answered on the spot, keeping a mind busy while mining or traveling or whatnot. Their main flaw is the possibility of spoilers (as in hearing some people spoil in the main chat).
Travel challenges are most annoying when the trip is long, providing trouble without any form of satisfaction (obviously, I'm talking about the endless back and forth visits from Oja to the Fortress). They are fine on a smaller scale though, like inside Hydlaa. More importantly, they can be enjoyable when the NPC conversation is interesting.
Hunt challenges and Research challenges are the same, basically because you don't have to hunt or make the object yourself. For example, I gave a NPC the ulber heart he wanted, said heart I bought from some random fighter. Nothing wrong with that, but the challenges would improve if some quest demanded that the deed be actually performed. This requires some way of marking the loot/objet with the killer/craftman's name, or to mark any action as performed (witnessed) in some way. I see that as a must not only fo provide really challenging quests, but also to give access to myriads of quest possibilities. Currently, one can succeed with any challenge at any skill level.
The best quests would probably involve mixing the challenges. For example, giving clues for a riddle (some of them essential, some barely helpful, some false leads...) through a series of conversations (travel challenge), with optional clues obtained with hunt/research challenges. Optional clues should be available without the NPC sending you to a NPC that could give them; new conversations open, but the player has to decide and find which NPC can help him with the task at hand.
Another type there is (to which I also give higher preference) is the Choice challenge, in which all there is to do is to make a choice, with consequences. There is no failure to that kind of challenge, but later opportunities open while other opportunities are forever discarded. For example, you get an object, but the real thing is to decide which NPC you give it to.
Oh, and I almost forgot: one of the two things I really dislike in games is a time limit. A Time challenge is definitely what I don't want to undertake. Such limit should always be clearly announced before the quest is accepted.
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Hunt challenge: where a player need to give to a NPC some item found on a monster.
I'd love those quests if we could go into the Stone Labrenths and do massive quests for the Octarchy!
other than that I hate traveling ones, but Settings ones are the best since they tell you all about Planeshift, to improve Settings Quests have a place where you can get the information (like the Library) but have it much more easyier to find what you are looking for, but still learn at the same time.
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After you've been around for a while, the travelling and hunting might be getting a bit monotonic. So then the researching and settings might be more to your liking.
So when you first started rat fighting and long backtracking they weren't monotonous? These kinds of things are monotonous regardless of time (point in or spent) and only made slightly better by the place. If you don't know where it is, the exploration amounts to randomly wandering around until you find what you're looking for. These sorts aren't really "quests"; they are "menial jobs"...it would be nice if they were called that. A quest is something where you, the player, are getting experience out of doing it. The greatest quest is one that gives you an experience you can apply to real life.
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Traveling: That's fine, but it gets quite annoying sometimes. Most of the quests should include traveling out of the city, and it gets a bit tiresome after a while.
Hunt: That's ok once in a while, for quests that have a glyph in the end should cause one to have to fight something, which, they usually do. I also think that it depends on the npc. If the npc is weak and it needs something, then he/she/kra would want you to go kill a monster to get that stuff for them.
Research: Personally I love these kinds of quests, but they should be for quests that give you more tria than experience or access to something. It also should be something that would combine with the riddle quests once in a while.
Riddle: I do like these once in a while, but they shouldn't be too far-fetched. Like said before, these can be somewhat messy because it's hard to type in the answer exactly how the npc is programmed to accept it.
Settings/History: These should be in some of the newbie quests, which are the quests that reward the player with a book. This way new players are forced to know the settings before they choose a job or hobby.
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Travel: These are fine, but only if they're short. Having to run back and forth between EBD and Ojaveda is lame.
Hunt/Gather: These are the staple quests of every MMO, so I say keep 'em. Again, as long as the amount of what you need is not ridiculously high, they're great. Seeing as these tend to be PL-centric, perhaps a nice chunk of extra xp after gathering the items would be nice, particularly since people will often just buy the items. I also sort of agree with Khoridor - there should be at least some of these where you have to kill/make/buy things yourself. Of course, the latter ought to have better rewards than the former.
Riddle: These are awesome. Only thing is, we need more hint options so we don't have to get spoiled when we're stuck. Also, I'd like to see more where the nature of the quest itself hints at the riddle's answer.
Settings: I've got mixed feelings about these - while I like learning details about the world my character is in, I don't like having to do a quest specifically to learn them. I like that one where you go read things to research for an NPC, and the one where you gather information for a certain bard to spin their yarn. However, I'm of the opinion that if more of these quests are implemented, they should reward the adventurer with obscure information not every character would know (and some quests already do this - I like the way the Black Flame stuff is handled, for instance). The basic stuff should be more easily accessible - NPC dialogue, the libraries, descriptions of objects (like the bottles and paintings in Kadas) and stuff like that, rather than having to jump through hoops for it.
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Also please....None of those "One small favor" quests >_< Every game has one and everyone hates them the most...
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Something that just popped to my 11th neuron: Some games have quests where you need to accompany someone to a distant place. These make great Travel challenges. In the Gothic series, for example, some NPCs follow you, some actually guide you; and they are not helpless if danger occurs.
Although it can't be done exactly the same way in a MMORPG, other ways can be thought of. For example, let's say NPC1 wants you to deliver some animal to NPC2, and this animal is too big to be put in your inventory, so it follows you, at its own pace. I can think of many ways to make that one more amusing, without even resorting to hungry mobs.
The system doesn't support that so far, but it's not that different from the pets mechanism, and you can keep it noted for later use.
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I've never been much of a quester, never have been [I haven't even finished the EBD quests]. I give it to one reason: All the quests I've done [or most of 'em, at least] are boring. All the quests I've done are also the newbie quests. There are two things a newb is going to do when he/she/kra first starts: Talk to a real person for some help, or get a quest. Now, the quests we give em shouldn't be boring, because otherwise it'll make em leave [and, in fact, has happened to one of my friends. He's still mad at me about it]. I have no idea how to make an easy quest interesting [or at least newbie interesting], unless it becomes some sort of optional supplemental to the quest.
Anyway, thats my rant.
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Something that just popped to my 11th neuron: Some games have quests where you need to accompany someone to a distant place. These make great Travel challenges. In the Gothic series, for example, some NPCs follow you, some actually guide you; and they are not helpless if danger occurs.
Although it can't be done exactly the same way in a MMORPG, other ways can be thought of. For example, let's say NPC1 wants you to deliver some animal to NPC2, and this animal is too big to be put in your inventory, so it follows you, at its own pace. I can think of many ways to make that one more amusing, without even resorting to hungry mobs.
The system doesn't support that so far, but it's not that different from the pets mechanism, and you can keep it noted for later use.
Oh god. Escort quests are horrible. Please never ever implement them.
*Candy makes puppy-eyes at everyone reading this to reinforce her point*
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Wow, which games escort quests have you had experience with? They aren't always that bad, and they tend to be far more interesting when your companion is interesting. Like the ones where your quest changes halfway through as you receive a new quest from your escorted.
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to make them slightly interesting you must make them talk and say something interesting. but an unsupportable case is when the escorted walks at a speed you can't gather with your char and you have to use a controller to reduce speed by keeping the analog stick at 1/3 (annoying ^ infinite) or have to stop continually :P
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Wow, how many informations. I appreciate very much your attitudes, everyone.
During the quest, the story around Lucky develops, you hear some things about him, and the plot is fun. Another example are some quests with Zak, where you get to know a bit more about his background.
Ok. You mean complex plotlines.
I'll try to condense all the other answers.
- Too repetitive challenges are boring. Travel challenge is nice only the first times, but a quest full of travilling could bother some players. Especially for long travels.
The same is for hunting. Continue to kill rats is boring. But going in interesting places (ex. Stone labytinth) or killing special monster (ex. to get Glyph rewards) could be ok.
- Riddles. Seems many like them, especially if they are tied with other quests or setting elements. Another suggestion was: to give clues through conversation or other inside quest elements. Flaw: 1) they could have more than one answer, and this could create frustration if not implemented. 2) there is the possibility of spoilers.
- Setting quest. Flaw: they could be too easy.
Fetch quest: are a mix of Travel (principal and necessary) and Hunt or Gather (optional)
I'll take not of some engine issues:
1)
Hunt challenges and Research challenges are the same, basically because you don't have to hunt or make the object yourself. For example, I gave a NPC the ulber heart he wanted, said heart I bought from some random fighter. Nothing wrong with that, but the challenges would improve if some quest demanded that the deed be actually performed.
2)
In the Gothic series, for example, some NPCs follow you, some actually guide you; and they are not helpless if danger occurs.
The good thing in escort quests are that you can know better the NPC and that he can relate to the invonroment. For now, we can only use it like any other fetch-pet (travel) quest. Thanks Khoridor, you made good reports.
About time limit quest:
I've read no quest with this challenge until now.
I also take note that the most reported request is: deploy choices with consequences internal in quests like these ones.
- decide which NPC you give the object (or the information) of the quest.
- decide how to finish a quest (ex. combat or conversation)
Any other suggestion?
If you don't know where it is, the exploration amounts to randomly wandering around until you find what you're looking for. These sorts aren't really "quests"; they are "menial jobs"...it would be nice if they were called that.
About this. Well, this is also a way to make players socialize, they have to ask around. What do you think about this? (Nivm, but also any other who'd like to express their opinion)
Did I understand something wrong?
Any other opinion or clarification until now?
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Multiplayer quests could be quite fun. I know you don't have code to support this, but logically it should not be that hard to implement.
Here's some examples of what the players might experience:
Player1 talks to npc1. Npc1 is depressed and tells player1 that so and so has been missing for days... A ransome note appeared in the laanx temple.. It stated that she would be returned unharmed in exchange for 100 million tria..
Npc1 pleads with player1 to assemble a party. Npc1 will lend the party a number of items to aide them.
Player 1,2 and 3 return a few days later to complete the quest...
A few dynamic npc's are created somewhere on the map (perhaps the gobble huts in this case) and the players are told to go. Npc1 might provide a vague hint - indicating the basic direction in which they should look.
The dynamic npc's could be permissioned so that only quest members can interact with them - this would prevent a random killing from spoiling the quest.
Completion could entail freeing the victim npc and perhaps returning some of the borrowed items.
The borrowed items could be weapons, glyphs, armor, or even ordinary items that might require some unusual out-of-the-box usage. Ie. You might be given an ornate lead key... But the trick to solving the quest might be to use the lead in the key to poison someone ( rather than opening a lock )
As for rp, a group of players that know how to rp could turn a quest like this into a very interesting rp if they chose to roleplay the adventure.
While this particular scenario might be used a few times with different name and places, other types of quests could be made using the same mechanics.
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If you don't know where it is, the exploration amounts to randomly wandering around until you find what you're looking for. These sorts aren't really "quests"; they are "menial jobs"...it would be nice if they were called that.
About this. Well, this is also a way to make players socialize, they have to ask around. What do you think about this? (Nivm, but also any other who'd like to express their opinion)
I have found my way to really hating that design. Every time I get instructions, they lead me in the wrong direction, or I find another fork in the road halfway through; having to search all the way down both paths to find my target. If I get a guide, I lose them shortly because of regular crashes. You would expect that if someone (quest giver) was desperate enough to entrust a random stranger with their parcel, they would make sure he knew where he was going. In real life they would even test to make sure you will remember.
To elaborate on my last post, it would be nice to have more quests where you are not totally sure what is going to happen, but are driven through them anyway. One's that give you the feeling that life so often does, where you are swept away into the unknown and chaotic. These would probably be the first "timed" quests, where once you finish the first step in the quest there is no turning back, and you need to push forward. Just need to make sure the timer is only going when you are logged in (just like the food, fluid, and sleep requirements that might one day go in), perhaps with a delay right after you log in to get your bearings. As an example, think of the player acting as an extra hand on a trading boat. The captain isn't very cautious, so 'e takes a dangerous route and gets caught in a storm (or attacked), leading the player into a shipwrecked or trapped situation they need to get out of. Both of these could also be done with teams of players, as the captain might need more than two extra hands, he might also know the danger he is getting in and looks for help that can handle themselves, without telling them the danger.
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Reading all the above input, and seeing how people may have some specific dislikes, remind me of something I encountered many times through the game. Dialogs roughly go like this: - Would you help me with something? - Yes! (---You've got a quest---) - Ok, here is my problem...
I believe that a NPC should have told me a bit more before I answered; if only for the sake of a more "natural" conversation. Now, it makes even more sense if people are willing to refuse quests because they are of a type they don't enjoy at all.
So, avoiding details, the NPC would say: I have a [tiny/casual/serious] problem that requires muscle/investigation/hunting/crafting skills/a long journey/whatever... Would you help me?
Even better if, before answering, a coloured warning message annouces the type of quest we are close to accepting, when the case is clear. As in "You are being offered an Escort challenge", so that Candy can pass, for example.
On a different subject: Group quests make sense in a MMORPG, yet they are not the only way to take advantage of a multi-player game. You can have Trade quests, for example, in which players barter, acting as intermediates between NPCs. An obvious other possibility is a Competing challenge. It can be as simple as a race to a mob (another useful case where mobs activate, or even instanciate, for marked characters only) or a fist fight, up to something as complex as any other quest.
Engine requirements/developments aside, one flaw (in some specific scenarios) is a competitor logging off and never coming back, blocking the other one. Quest launch design is also a bit complex, for the players must be synchronised (waiting and maybe called later to start).
Well, complex or not, I felt compelled to mention it. I won't mention competitive group chall... oops! Sorry... :whistling:
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Khoridor - I thougt about the possibility of a log off event jamming up an event too. Good point. This sort of thing could be managed with limitations and rules.
For example, a group quest might time out after x minutes if an involved player (or all involved players) is disconnected. Likewise for a multiplayer type quest a limit could be put on how many can be issued at a time.
I see this as something that could be taken quite a bit farther - having spawqned npcs issue additional related quests to anyone who asks and eventually dying once all related quests have been completed or timed out.
Yes, GMs are supposed to do these dynamic quests... Buy why not let a process do it for you?
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There are two type of multiplayer quest:
The multi player - (optional): ex. you need to kill a monster or to gather items. It is easier to do it in group.
The multi player - (necessary): ex the multi-lever quest. -> You need to pull a number of levers distant from each other and you need to do it at the same time.
But, as Rigwyn says, these are game design issues, not only a quest line issue.
You also mentioned the possibility to make NPC interact with the setting (dynamic NPC). An engine issue. (I divide them, so if anyone want to work on this or study them will be facilitated.)
Nivm you pointed out a possible flaw. Make players feel "not in control" is bad (it is different from "surprises" that are good elements). I agree. I'll try to think something out through the quest lines.
The NPC who trust too much the player is a story (congruency) issue. No problem for them. Easy to correct.
Then you mix the "time quest" with the "No way back." and "A step done is done." They are different issues but I think to understand what you said.
Reading all the above input, and seeing how people may have some specific dislikes, remind me of something I encountered many times through the game. Dialogs roughly go like this: - Would you help me with something? - Yes! (---You've got a quest---) - Ok, here is my problem...
I agree. First a player need to know what to do, then he/she/kra could decide. Otherwise the player had no real choice.
For the ones who are following this post I think you could like some more explainations.
Quest are composed by many elements tied together:
- Challenge.
- Story.
- Reward.
This post was designed to focalize on challenges (story and reward only when they are tied with challenge). Obviously the suggestion about stories and reward are welcome, but I'll try to remain on subject.
Oh... and I identified another type of challenge.
- Item interacting challenge: where the player have to use some item in the setting to obtain something. Ex. the cooking quests in ojaveda.
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I guess the challenge would be the conflict and what needs to be done to resolve it, but not the story itself ?
If you google "plot ideas" there are something like 35 known patterns for plots .. ( some folks will describe these ideas in different numbers - some more, some less .. same difference ...)
These can easily be adapted to fit the ps setting. Its a good source of ideas.
Below are two examples, [ unforturnately I cannot check them at the moment... hope they still work:]
http://www.dndresources.com/index.php?showtopic=6597 (http://www.dndresources.com/index.php?showtopic=6597)
http://www.stumbleupon.com/s/#9Th9qT/www.io.com/~sjohn/plots.htm (http://www.stumbleupon.com/s/#9Th9qT/www.io.com/~sjohn/plots.htm)
Regarding quests, I think the biggest pain point with planeshift quests is not being able to find the right npc's ( thats just my opinion )
Would be easier if the npc giving the quest guided you to the correct npc .. ie. if npc says "give this book to x" , then it would be nice if they told you where "x" was. When you dont know the map its a real pain to find the needed npc's
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Your second link is a good one, most importantly the end.
Make players feel "not in control" is bad (it is different from "surprises" that are good elements). I agree. [...] Then you mix the "time quest" with the "No way back." and "A step done is done." They are different issues but I think to understand what you said.
Whether it is bad or not depends on how the quest writer handles it; it's one of the elements that is hard to pull off but that much better when you do. I was aiming for such a situation in which the player is taken by circumstances they can't control, and has no choice but to take it to its conclusion (and finds consequences if they don't do it fast enough). When you do this to player, you should not make them feel like their options have been reduced; only increased. You can do this through a combination of making the NPCs look to them for guidance (instead of directing the player exactly where they need to go), and using mechanics and resources they player has encountered before in new ways (strange ways, ways that rotate 90° into a new dimension). Both of these are still difficult and still even better when successful. [rant?] I've seen quite a few quests now where the author tried to keep from "holding the player's hand" but only ended up trying to lose the player completely. Instead of giving vague information that encourages the player to check everything until they find the right thing, leave the details where they would have been left; rumors that give you an idea of who is who and what is what, people mentioning things of great importance among those with none, listing all details of an examined item and leaving the player to know which is important.[/rant?] When making mechanics for a puzzle, you need to make sure that the "right answers" are numerous and make sense, and the "wrong answers" come in swarms and make even more sense. It might seem like a better idea to make sure the "right answers" are always those the player would expect from the information, but then what will the player learn? And what if the author didn't guess correctly?
The main reason I want to see something like this is to fight of the supreme mediocrity of the quests I've done so far;[rant?] the ones (that seem) designed to pull you in only mean more boring steps, the ones that are written seriously only sound like bad joke, and no matter what happens you can assume that the right item and selection will mean everything will turn out fine. Then it's always jarring when the NPC congratulates you for speedy delivery when you took eight times as long as their normal service does.[/rant?] I want to see quests where time means something, and where your actions mean a multitude. This I have not yet seen.
I find it kinda funny how DrJack says the developers divide things. I don't see any reason to segment the work, especially in planning where one person can finish it quickly.
(I abuse semicolons, apparently.)
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Well, my main issue with escort quests (and admittedly, my experience in them is pretty much in WoW) is that NPCs are morons. They drown themselves, they waddle right into aggressive clumps of giant-crocodile-mobs that it's impossible to solo (unless you're a class with a combat pet/minion, but that's irrelevant >>; ), even with the NPC fighting alongside you, they stop every five seconds to catch their breath or something, and in one case, even if you manage to successfully complete the stupid quest, the dude gets shot down at the end anyway. That one really made me nerdrage.
Now I'll admit, I might check one out if PS could implement them in such a way that your NPC isn't all like "Hurr, ahm gon' walk right up to every single monster on the map and kite 'um over to ya". I mean, I don't mind fighting a few things - particularly if the NPC I'm escorting is helping me out - but in the ones I'm used to, the challenge lies in the fact that your NPC has an IQ of a negative number.
Anyway, I totally support the idea of having a "You are being offered a(n) x challenge" message showing up, and having the NPC give an idea of what you're doing. Realistically, at least among the people I've known, nobody immediately gives a yes or no when asked for a favor with no details. At best you'd get a reply to the effect of "Well, what kind of favor?"
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I like the types of quests where you travel, or bassicaly a storyline of all of the types combining ;)
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Thanks for the links, Rigwyn.
I guess the challenge would be the conflict and what needs to be done to resolve it, but not the story itself ?
They're two different things. Some player prefer one, some other prefer the other. I would like to improve both.
Story have elements like characters, motivation, congruency, chronology etc.
Challenge have other elements like difficulty, GUI, Way to solve etc.
Conflict is one of the elements that ties the two.
Then it's always jarring when the NPC congratulates you for speedy delivery when you took eight times as long as their normal service does.
One of the new thing you said is that the NPC will recognize honestly the player effort. And giving compliments to everyone could be like giving to no one.
I'll try to do something about this.
And, Nivm, I understand your points. There's no problem, I (think to :p) understand what you're saying. And I will try to improve the elements you defined.
I find it kinda funny how DrJack says the developers divide things. I don't see any reason to segment the work, especially in planning where one person can finish it quickly.
Well, this is really above this topic :).
Ok to talk here and there about some engine issues or other part of the challenge system, but the question under your statement is about mangement of people :p.
I know that if we want we can dig in this topic and go deep (challenge is tied with everything if we want to analyze it), but I prefer to focalize on the types of challenge already implemeted (or easily implementable :p).
Thanks also for the new answers, Candy and Kinghtspark9.
Sorry for my late reply, but this week I had some connection problems.
Please, remember that this is only a topic of a prospect member (me) who want to familiarize with the quest challenges and to hear it from the players.
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After playing through the Winch quests again, I would say that my favorite quests are those that put the character in a position of jeopardy regarding factions. There should be many lower-level quests that offer dark side/light side choices but with small faction changes. This would give developing characters the chance to go good or go bad, but maybe wouldn't be so great as to make those choices irrevocable. I don't know if I said that good. I really like how things started developing once I got to Datal though.
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I really enjoy the riddle quests, but then again I've got more than just a slight intellectual bent. I particularly enjoyed the riddle posed by the captain of the guard in Gugrontid (forget the name) where I gave an answer I was sure was the one, and he says something like "Actually, the I was looking for answer is <x>, but your answer <y> is also appropriate and correct".
Travel/fetch quests are typically boring to me, except where the story makes it worthwhile. For example, the Starhammer quest where we see Trasok's animosity and learn the cause for it, recruiting Grimal Bloodaxe, him then realizing how old he is, the build-up and humorous let-down of Aerayau's "Great Adventure" quest (funny that carrying an order of food typically requires seasoned troops).
I'm not as bothered by hunt quests as some others are, they typically give me another reason to train my (currently pathetic) combat skills. Still working on being able to kill an ulbernaut for its heart, I know it'll take a while but I'm ok with that.
I agree that multiplayer-enabled quests would bring a lot of interest, as well as more complex plot structures -- having choices available, some clear but some not immediately obvious. There is one in the rare disease quest, but because I am so used to quests being completely linear I didn't think of the obvious fact that I didn't have time to dawdle by going to the BD on another fetch/carry. I think that if there were more such quests, it would become common practice to wonder whether there is another way of completing the quest rather than agreeing to every NPC's request.
EDIT: I think that for quests that require player-crafted items (like the sabre quest), quest rewards might be given based on the quality of the item. If poor ones are given, "You call these sabres? My hammer has a sharper edge! Still, I've got to make this delivery and I suppose these'll do" (you get a minimal amount of tria). If superior/extraordinary, "My, these are fine blades indeed! I'm sure I'll be able to get a bonus from these. Here's a little extra for you!". If finest sabres are given, maybe even toss in an item, like an uncommon glyph or other item. A golden ring, for example, would allow you to advance in a quest that needs it without having to go through the trouble of collecting tefusang hides. There you've made the quest itself more interesting (and actually make me want to give the NPC good sabres), while at the same time providing an alternative way of completing another quest.
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Please, remember that this is only a topic of a prospect member (me) who want to familiarize with the quest challenges and to hear it from the players.
Yeah, but you're currently doing a much better job with what you have available. It's a very good thing when people talk to each other.
I also wanted to bring attention to the kind of problem I posted in #4492 (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/flyspray/index.php?project=2&sort=asc&pagenum=8&do=details&task_id=4492) (wanted to make it official). It's those situations where the serious nature of the game clashes with the really bad jokes that the writers made. The questions Levrus asks in that quest really do make it seem like he messing with you for the fun of it, or is becoming senile. I'm not totally sure what thought path brought about this creation, but it wasn't successful.
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I think Levrus is supposed to be kind of a wackjob anyway. Have you asked him "about purple"?
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I don't think I've used the /about command successfully to date. I was worried that his responses were exemplary of much of the rest of the game. Nothing so far has challenged that idea.
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I never used a slash before "about", myself. I just clicked the NPC tab, said "About purple", without the slash, and he started ranting.
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I think I will remember.
I wanted to know how many people here have studied the quests from the game "Arcanum", for they are quite similar in mechanics to Plane Shift quests. I stumbled across an Arcanum Let's Play (http://lparchive.org/LetsPlay/Arcanum/chapter35.html) and noticed two interesting concepts (the page of the Let's Play I linked exemplifies both). The first is the influence of skill and stats (charisma, intelligence and negotiation) on the options available; higher charisma and negotiation gives you more options, while intelligence influences those options. Having low intelligence in the game will ruin your grammar and make many people refuse to speak you to, but having extremely high intelligence will skew all your options to the related stereotype. I think it would be an awesome way to liven up the dialogs (the person doing the Let's Play even gets drunk on multiple occasions to get the stupid options for fun).
The second has to do with conversation design. The link demonstrates the player speaking to a dwarven king, and although the conversation acts like a kind of memory quiz, it flows like a real conversation, and the riddle-nature is very subtle. Of course, it might just be the player's role-play talking.
(I think it's been 24 hours since I last had sleep now.)
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There should be many lower-level quests that offer dark side/light side choices but with small faction changes. This would give developing characters the chance to go good or go bad, but maybe wouldn't be so great as to make those choices irrevocable
Moral choice... if we change it a bit we maybe can create some moral challenge. A moral choice is easy enough, but I think that moral challenge needs a special type of prize. It is not always applicable, but I'll try to think about it.
Bragan:
I see that you like when a NPC interact realistically to your words, a nice point I think. You also say that a good story could make you forgot a bad challenge :p. We'll try to make them both good.
I think that for quests that require player-crafted items (like the sabre quest), quest rewards might be given based on the quality of the item.
Here you say again you want some honest answer from the NPC, you're not the first you asked for it. I'll take in mind this.
You also pointed out a new challenge.
Item creation challenge: where a player need to create an object for the NPC.
Nivm:
Thanks for the links, and for all your opinions. I really appreciate your enthusiasm in giving your feedback.
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How about a quest that doesn't make my mind melt with its stupefyingly routine requirements?