PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rigwyn on January 16, 2014, 05:27:38 am
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A Dice Based Roleplay System - Discussion
So a few of us (Allena, Roled and I ) have been tossing around the idea of trying out some dice based RP within Planeshift. The idea here is to run events large and small using a D&D-like point system instead of the stats and abilities that the game offers via the mechanics.
Why?
Because it would be interesting to try. It's difficult to incorporate the game's stats directly into role play for various reasons that I won't mention here. Let's not digress.
A brief overview:
So the basic idea here is to structure an event like this:
* One player acts as a DM. They will design a campaign or quest for others to play. It could be short or long, it could be made for one sitting or multiple.
* Each player would make a character ( preferably a new one ) following the system that we will outline, then submit a character sheet. The character sheet basically shows your charcter's starting stats and tells a little bit about them.
* The DM would then try to tailor their campaign or quest to the participating players. You really need to have a good match. The campaign should be palatable to the players, and the players should have working chemistry and a common goal or reason to partake in this quest.
* When actions arise and players attempt to do things, the /roll command is used to determine success and so on. The DM would have the final say as they could include their own judgement.
* The DM would also award experience points and money which the player could in turn use to increase their stats or buy new items.
This so far is just a rough overview. I'll defer to Ascomanni for the specifics. Give her a few days to reply and fill in the gaps. She knows much more about this than I.
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Hey guys,
For those of you who do not know, I am Allena's player. I am happy and willing to answer questions anyone has on this subject. For a brief idea (Besides what Rigwyn already touched on) what we are thinking is to use DnD's v. 3.5 as a base and mold it to fit our needs. In short, depending on your character's strengths and weaknesses you will declare what you intend for your character to do (i.e Attack, steal, bake a pie) and roll a 20 sided die and add some modifiers to it to come up with how well you did/succeed or failed. The DM has complete authority in this matter.
I am short on time here so I will deffer to your questions and in the coming day or two I hope to post some basic characters (Stats, not back-story or motivation, etc.) for people interested in trying this out with us to use for a dry run. Once we work out some of the troubleshooting and issues, we will open it up to building our own characters and then maybe opening it up further to existing characters. I am planning on a fighter, rouge, and mage template. let me know if you what something added to that, but simple might be the way to go to help get people introduced to the system.
If everything goes well, the DM will have challenges that are difficult to overcome as individuals and more roles will need to be played. Teamwork and communication and all that.
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This sounds like a wonderful idea to me. Would a pre-existing character be all right to introduce? The character has been played on roll20.net campaigns and the stats are earned not made up. It was created for a Pathfinder campaign if that is exceptable.
Ballisk Darkeyes : http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=465871
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A Dice Based Roll System is fine to add into the game BUT should not be required.
http://illarion.org/general/us_startpage.php is a great example of this. When players do meet up and want to RP, they sometime agree to a dice based system to determine end results to keep things fair among members in more sophisticated events created by the players spontaneously in the game.
BUT personally, I like my hard work and stats to determine whether I am rewarded or not. I prefer to control the outcome through focused training and self discover of character development as I venture around the world.
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These were always fun systems to try. I'd be down for it. I'm familiar with 3.5 rules at the most, and I have a new character I've been bringing up that could participate (no stats trained from base ;) )
Looking forward to something!
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I've actually been thinking of doing something similar for awhile. If I where to do anything though, I'd use the Cortex System (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14750.phtml). The Cortex System is far more flexible than 3.5, and offers a tool kit approach that would easily transfer to PS. Its light weight, and intuitive, and it relies on the story instead of the rules. As much as I enjoy 3.5, players who aren't familiar with it can be a little intimidated. Also, Dungeons and Dragons assumes your character is a hero that fits into a number of heroic archetypes (or classes). In Planeshift, not many players fall under "Human fighter" or "Elf Rouge". Most of the characters I've seen are far more rounded. While you can certainly stretch 3.5 to allow you to play a fighter who can cast spells, it you would still be fighting the system.
Also, the Cortex System also encourages RP more than the D20 system. With mechanics like plot points, and complications to go along with assets, it is far easier to bring your characters to life. The D20 system has similar alternative rules, but they always feel like they have been added in as an after thought. Action points, and Flaws are only added in supplements. In addition, combat is often the focus of many D&D games, and a battle map is almost always present. How would things be measured in game? Would combat take place on another platform like Roll20 (http://roll20.net/)?
I'm unsure how D20 mechanics will factor in to the setting as well, particularly when it comes to magic. Would Ways be considered schools of magic? Or would each class have access to different spells? And what of the characters who would likely be stuck with NPC classes, like dear old' Zalya? Would she be stuck being a level 3 commoner?
However things play out, count me in for this one. I've been playing Pen and Paper games for a long time now, and I pick stuff up pretty quickly, no matter what system you choose to use. I'm very familiar with 3.5, and plenty of other games. I'd love to be a player, or a GM if you need me. Send me a PM with more details if you'd like :) . Good luck!
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Typically I'm not really for dice-based, but I've never actually tried it, and I've always been the try-before-you-choose sort. So I'd certainly be willing to give it a go. It might make combat more interesting. (Usually I just lose. ;D) If you're up for it I'll make up a character!
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I really like this idea. It would be a refreshing change to other types of PS roleplay. I've never actually played these types of games before, however Zalya did a great job a while back creating a one night sort of Dungeon Master based RP. I'm looking forward to it.
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Wow, well that Exploded quickly! :D That is really exciting that we have a discussion going on this.
So I guess to help give everyone a little more, let me give you guys a little more understanding in our intentions. Rigwyn was toying with the idea of creating a setting/quest/series of quests where the players opponents were NPC's rather than other players. The idea was largely meant as a tool to help the person or people manage the action and such. We are still in the "ideas" phase and the discussion is meant to help see what people are looking at, hammer out some rules and regulations, and also see what sort of interest there was. A lot of this was generated in one night on PS chat. We are hopping for this discussion to generate a lot of the interest and particulars.
So the idea was never meant to be mandatory for players and may not even be used constantly by the DM, but rater as I said, a tool to help manage things when dealing with the NPC's set against the players in the RP.
I think Rigwyn was looking for all new characters for this so bringing in one that is experienced would be not an option. I know pathfinder is similar to 3.5, but this is, as of right now, it's own idea and using 3.5 as a base. To be honest, I was not sure if we were even going to have classes, but rather make archetypes with ability scores and the like. Magic is definatly an issue and will take some time to figure out how it gets implemented. I was thinking about the ways being schools of magic being equivalent to the ways as well, but unsure. If I was more experienced with the PS magic glyphs, I would suggest maybe even just a spell for spell substitution for the standard in game magic and then leave the RP invented spells up to the DM as a simple success/fail, but I don't know.
I am not familiar with the cortex system, but I agree, 3.5 can be a little intimidating at first. I was hoping to streamline it a little here in the discussion. maybe even limit it to combat and a few opposing skills and let the normal RP was of doing things stand for a lot of the minor interactions between characters and some NPC's.
But anyway, this is really exciting that there is interest and with a fair amount of people with experience with something similar. I think this has some potential to be an option for given storylines or individual quests.
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I was thinking that it would be ideal to integrate this dice system with the game as closely as possible - giving buffs and de-buffs for racial abilities and so on. For example, settings wise, Enki are supposed to have keen night vision, however, in the game, it's not implemented. The entire concept of illumination, terrain and distance is not really a factor in PS, so their night vision trait is never seen or experienced. You can account for this in roleplay, but most of the weight is on the players to do this cooperatively. In the same way, Kran should have a natural bonus for armor because of their skin, red way users should have an affinity for blacksmithing, and so on.
Having a method for dicing in a way that does not make RP silly and that takes into consideration, a character's abilities - "which are gained via roleplay" and not via isolated training would be a plus. This might mean borrowing ideas from the d20 rules, or outright using the d20 rules- perhaps swapping race names where possible, tweaking a little here and there to make it fit.
We have all run into cases where you want your character to try something, but then there is question or disagreement about whether they should or could do the action in question. This may make such judgement calls easier - especially when playing with players who have very different ideas of what is plausible within this fantasy setting. Having predetermined rules and or odds for general actions and specific actions might help.
I could certainly help in bringing a little clarity to the settings side of things if others could help with the d20 rules side of things.
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Thanks Rigwyn. I was thinking the same and communicating it poorly. Maybe oothers can suggest a better system then 3.5, but one of the reasons I thought of 3.5 immediatly was i thought it matched well I saw stats as ability scores and jobs as skills. I was not suggesting we play 3.5 or ps, but borrow from it to impliment something akin to PS as a tool for RPs.
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I believe the d20 rules are also available online
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/getting-started
http://www.d20srd.org/
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I know pathfinder is similar to 3.5, but this is, as of right now, it's own idea and using 3.5 as a base.
Pathfinder is essentially 3.6. It takes 3.5, makes some minor changes, fixes some balance issues, and changes some general settings stuff. It is almost exactly the same.
I was thinking that it would be ideal to integrate this dice system with the game as closely as possible - giving buffs and de-buffs for racial abilities and so on. For example, settings wise, Enki are supposed to have keen night vision, however, in the game, it's not implemented. The entire concept of illumination, terrain and distance is not really a factor in PS, so their night vision trait is never seen or experienced. You can account for this in roleplay, but most of the weight is on the players to do this cooperatively. In the same way, Kran should have a natural bonus for armor because of their skin, red way users should have an affinity for blacksmithing, and so on.
I actually did some of the work for you in terms of the races if you end up using Cortex. The Cortex system uses what are essentially trait bundles for races. I already put together a list of traits for each and every PS race. I had planned on working out a magic system for a PS campaign as well, though I never finished that. I'd be more than willing to continue it if there was interest in it. Send me a PM if you want to see those bundles.
I'm always skeptical about using the d20 system for anything that isn't Dungeons and Dragons. The d20 system simply doesn't have the flexibility or pacing to use for PS. Its very rules heavy, and that tends to take away from the story, especially for those in PS used to far more freestyle RP's. Classes don't work well in PS, because everyone is so different. Its harder to box Planeshifters.
One of the things I was planning on doing with this kind of idea, was taking a small group out of Yilakum to explore the labyrinths. It would give me plenty of freedom as a GM, as I could make things up, and not have them suddenly become non-canon because of a settings update. It would also make death a far scarier subject, as there would be no DR outside of Yilakum.
I believe the d20 rules are also available online
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/getting-started
http://www.d20srd.org/
The good thing about d20 is that the OGL makes it a lot easier to gain access too.
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Questions:
1. Can you explain briefly how this cortex system works?
2. How does one gain adequate knowledge of it?
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Hello all. I have been reading this topic for a couple days now. And I would be interested as well. I haven't
done gaming like this for a while. So I looks foward to it. Sounds like fun. \\o//
Player of Anysu
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Hello! I've been thinking something like that since quite some time but I was ever unsure if bringing up the issue was worth the time. As it seems there could be some interest and could be the case.
I know 3.5 system very well and I played it for ages both as a player and as a DM and I can guarantee it will not blend well with the way PS and its settings is designed. I could go down to finely explain why point by point but it would take too much time, just let me say the magic system will not blend at all.
Cortex system is a bit better as lot of its mechanics blends in much more in the current system, unfortunately I think it's not "open-sourced" (but I may be wrong) and it still need some hard fixes to adapt it to PS.
So basically my idea was to ask you if there would be any interest in creating a dice based PS System.
The rules created could be developed in the official wiki http://planeshift.top-ix.it/pswiki/ (http://planeshift.top-ix.it/pswiki/) and made available to the whole community.
Some of the advantages:
- a simple dice based system that will offer a very simplified version of the "official" system.
- the possibility to use your existing character and its stats with no need to go down to hours of time for conversion
- creation rules for higher level characters as well
- the possibility to share your character sheet with the GM (or player GM) through MyPlane http://planeshift.teamix.org/myplane/ (http://planeshift.teamix.org/myplane/) (if your character isn't a trained one its stats could be written in the OOC description.
- no need to adapt different skills as currently listed skills could be used in the system right away
About me I don't have much time at hand because I'm focusing on the next (huge) PS update but I would be able to provide guidance for anyone willing to spend some time on it for the community.
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I think if there was a dicing system that everyone agreed on, that would be great. It would be even better if the game provided something to:
* keep track of character sheets and rolling
* report rolls to a player designated or player accepted DM
* provide a way to join a game and appoint or accept a player as DM
* provide that DM with some administrative mechanisms for seeing and comparing rolls
I would say lets experiment first and see what works and is most enjoyable.
We should probably also discuss some of the things that do not work for RP with the existing mechanics as well as what does.
For example:
Planeshift awards stats and skills in response to physical training and questing ONLY. I see this as bad. It would be better in my opinion, if such skill and stat advancements were the result of role playing feats and accomplishments - hence the reason for using an offline character sheet. In this case, they would be rewards for actually playing and would reflect your character's REAL accomplishments in a meaningful way.
One of the problems with awarding stats and skill for leveling is that is does not really contribute to roleplay and it creates a terrible imbalance in the game. For example, I could stop playing with everyone for a few months and totally max out my character. When I return to my group, my characters is now a demi-god and really doesn't fit in. Furthermore, he can now overpower the entire group if we were to try to roll against his leveled stats.
Awarding stats and skills for leveling only encourages leveling. Leveling is NOT roleplaying.
I do realize that the game itself cannot look at your RP and award stats. If we allowed each character to have an "RP character sheet" and either let them update their own RP stats on that sheet, or let their accepted DM update those stats, then that would be swell. Yes, I am suggesting a totally separate set of stats just for RP alone.
Lastly, I would suggest against making the dicing system inferior to the game's stats system. If you do that, then people will subvert it because it sucks and use their own system to track stats and skills ( Much like what we are starting to do now )
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Rigwyin I really appreciate your efforts to bring in constructive criticism in the topic and don't take it personally :) but ... let's stop saying some stupidity :P in particular:
Planeshift awards stats and skills in response to physical training and questing ONLY. I see this as bad. It would be better in my opinion, if such skill and stat advancements were the result of role playing feats and accomplishments - hence the reason for using an offline character sheet. In this case, they would be rewards for actually playing and would reflect your character's REAL accomplishments in a meaningful way.
a computer IS NOT able to evaluate your RP not now and not even in a distant future, not even an human can do it without knowing the full story and background (an this is the reason why only GMs can do it in every known RPing) game.
So just to be clear: it is not going to happen ever, not now and not in a distant future, so always bringing up the issue is pointless.
This is also the reason why I would really like a bigger GM involvement in the players community: they have the power to do so and woud be desirable they'd put it to good use.
One of the problems with awarding stats and skill for leveling is that is does not really contribute to roleplay and it creates a terrible imbalance in the game. For example, I could stop playing with everyone for a few months and totally max out my character. When I return to my group, my characters is now a demi-god and really doesn't fit in. Furthermore, he can now overpower the entire group if we were to try to roll against his leveled stats.
Awarding stats and skills for leveling only encourages leveling. Leveling is NOT roleplaying.
I do realize that the game itself cannot look at your RP and award stats. If we allowed each character to have an "RP character sheet" and either let them update their own RP stats on that sheet, or let their accepted DM update those stats, then that would be swell. Yes, I am suggesting a totally separate set of stats just for RP alone.
I may go on for hours discussing many of the points you bring up and why I disagree they should be implemented in a game (RP or not whatever it is) but in particular I would like to point out:
* we always said every action in game has to be considered IC so training, hunting, levelling in general has to be considered IC. So I don't mind if you and other players ignore it, do quests OOCly just to get the reward or whatever and then want to ignore the consequences. You're free to do it but don't pretend the Devs the GMs team or all the other players to ignore it in any way. It's your choice and the choice of the other players that agreed with you.
* the game awards exp for questing and doing mental and physical game actions; this game and any other computer game is not going to support awarding whatever happens in the player's mind anytime soon :P
* we are not going to support a dichotomous system with a real time system and a RP system in the code not now and not in the distant future. Not even mention supporting a dual system to track stats and skills. You already have everything you need for that: an IC tab and an OOC for your char to fill in with whatever you want and MyPlane which already let you share all this even when you're offline.
Now going back to the main topic my idea is not to make an inferior system but a simpler system allowing two roleplaying players to quickly determine the RPed actions outcome by rolling two dice and a comparing the results with no need to use a calculator or go through endless calculations impossible for a human mind to do in no time. All this in a way consistent with the PS setting.
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I believe the d20 rules are also available online
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/getting-started
http://www.d20srd.org/
This would seem to be a huge advantage for both GM's ease of not having to explain things and players' ease of having the rule set readily available.
Cortex may have the advantage of removing the inevitable philosophical rule interpretation debates of table top gaming. The GM would simply explain what to roll and how that affects the outcome.
However, my GM experience is that players like to have the rule set available to them.
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I think if there was a dicing system that everyone agreed on, that would be great. It would be even better if the game provided something to:
* keep track of character sheets and rolling
* report rolls to a player designated or player accepted DM
* provide a way to join a game and appoint or accept a player as DM
* provide that DM with some administrative mechanisms for seeing and comparing rolls
So lets just be honest here: if this is what you want, you just want an online tabletop roleplaying system. Roll20.net is a really good one. PS brings absolutely nothing to the table for what you want.
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I think if there was a dicing system that everyone agreed on, that would be great. It would be even better if the game provided something to:
* keep track of character sheets and rolling
* report rolls to a player designated or player accepted DM
* provide a way to join a game and appoint or accept a player as DM
* provide that DM with some administrative mechanisms for seeing and comparing rolls
So lets just be honest here: if this is what you want, you just want an online tabletop roleplaying system. Roll20.net is a really good one. PS brings absolutely nothing to the table for what you want.
And this is not going to happen because PS is a MMORPG and it's out of its scope to build an online tabletop system.
The only thing I can help with is creating a "roll" based system to help roleplayers unwilling to use PvP to handle roleplayed fight in a way consistent with the official mechanics.
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Well, for those who are intersted, what I am looking to do is to find a relatively easy way to use dice or the /roll command to resolve rp conflicts and determine outcomes or actions. This would be a strictly player-made solution that's independent of the game's mechanics. If it's possible to use the game's stats and skills in a way that seems fun and fair and without players having to grind to keep up, then fine, otherwise, I'd be happy to ignore the stats and skills that the game awards for questing and grinding and just go with stats and skills awarded in RP. These could be tracked on paper or in the ooc tab or something.
I'm not sure what was up with your last post, Eonwind, but I did mention in my post that I am NOT suggesting that the game would or could interpret roleplayed events and award points based on that. As for suggesting the possiblility of the game offering mechanics to aid in the rolling of dice or in supporting character sheets, I would like to withdraw that suggestion altogether. I won't argue further about why the game's stats and skills are useless in RP, I presented my argument already, and you answered it clearly - planeshift is an mmorpg. ( I interpret this as, "screw roleplaying, this is a grind and shoot game." That is fine with me - I have no intentions in trying to change that. I just want to entertain and roleplay with fellow players who have similar interests. )
As for roll20.net, I think I'll check that out tonight.
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[...] - planeshift is an mmorpg. ( I interpret this as, "screw roleplaying, this is a grind and shoot game." That is fine with me - I have no intentions in trying to change that. I just want to entertain and roleplay with fellow players who have similar interests. )
No your interpretation is wrong, this is a mmorpg ( = MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ONLINE ROLEPLAY GAME) and roleplay has a primary focus in PS and we want to support RP as best as we can. We are just not going to support a full fledged tabletop RP platform because it's out of the scope of this project.
Back to topic what I was thinking was something very simple as a confrontation of rolls between players after the roleplayed declarations have been done. Example:
/roll d50 + RELATED STAT/40 + RELATED SKILL/10 + CIRCUMSTANCE BONUS
A melee attack with a STR 200 + Sword 100 (circumstance bonus is ad-hoc bonus determined by the roleplayed situation): d50+15.
This is just a very rough system, more a proof of concept than anything else, also the type of dice rolled can be changed to give more or less weight to stats or skills.
Likewise a char creation could be as simple as picking a race, assigning 50 points to every stats and assigning 150 character points to the stats, skill could be chosen by assigning them as the player best fits with a starting pool of 30.
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Awarding stats and skills for leveling only encourages leveling. Leveling is NOT roleplaying.
Well in the more traditional RPG tabletop/roll20.net-ish campaign one can get XPs for completing a quest of sorts. Traditionally that means you kill X amount of Mobs and get X amount of XPs which one would translate to levels. That need not be the case however.
The PS GM, which is being suggested here, could place an amount of XPs to be shared out during a quest, breaking it down into small parts much like a GM may award XPs after a nightly session of table top play. How these XPs are to be used could be up to the group/GM as well.
Perhaps they could be used for skill development, yet just as easily they could be used for other things more attune to RP in the PS sense. Maybe enough for an item, knowledge, a means to bid the outcome of an RP event. For example "that was a hit". "No it wasn't". "I bid X XPs it was." "I bid X XPs it wasn't." "I don't have that many XPs so I guess it was." All these suggestions are just to show XPs can be handled any way the group/GM decides them to be used. They need not be stats/level based alone.
There is also a tradition, yet rarely used these days, of awarding XPs for good RPing in RPG table top. Instead of being forgotten about like in most campaigns in this day and age it could be brought to the forefront in this RP that is being suggested.
What both Eonwind and Rigwyn are suggesting do not sound in opposition to me. Perhaps just coming from extremes of the same spectrum. Eonwind's dice mod sounds very useful. How it is used, by a player like Rigwyn, may be a total and pleasant surprise from the intent of the creator.
- Nova
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I have always wanted a way to roll against another player's skills or stats. A outward bound saving through, so to speak. A way of saying could a another player accomplish something, yes or no. The results of the roll would be indicated in chat, rather than privately to the user. This could be annoying to non-participant characters, so it would be better if it were only allowed in guild or group, with any considerations that might apply. It would also be good if two skills or stats could be taken into account in this roll (or more but two would suffice I think).
I can already hear the grumbling from the roleplaying-is-not-mechanics faction. I think the last time I brought this up I was accused of things like wanting to "implement a completely different combat system or game" ... But I did add two feature requests to flyspray long ago.
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I guess I think it is a bit much to say a d20 system is incompatible, but I do agree the magic system is a problem. I have played a d20 system and found it really flexible. I am not saying we open it up to the multitude of books out there, but have a simpler system designed based on it. If this cortex system is a better fit, lets try that. I just have no idea what it is so I will not be able to head this up. I might keep tinkering with a d20 idea (as that is what I know) but count me in to give the cortex system a go.
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I guess I think it is a bit much to say a d20 system is incompatible, but I do agree the magic system is a problem. I have played a d20 system and found it really flexible. I am not saying we open it up to the multitude of books out there, but have a simpler system designed based on it. If this cortex system is a better fit, lets try that. I just have no idea what it is so I will not be able to head this up. I might keep tinkering with a d20 idea (as that is what I know) but count me in to give the cortex system a go.
I know very well both d20 system and PS internal mechanism and I'm very sure d20 is almost incompatible with PS, I also think d20 (while I played it for ages and I still play it weekly on tabletop and I really appreciate this system) is far more complex than it should be for a dice based system whose purpose is judging if a RPed action is a success or not. Also note that such system could be used effectively in the PS environment only by who knows the system very well... which I suspect could be you, me and a very selected few in the PS community :P
Also consider converting a character from PS to d20 could really become a nightmare even just because d20 foundation is based on classes, an alien concept in the PS system. And I suspect even providing "template" will sure won't satisfy the taste of most PS roleplayers.
That's way I suggested a straightforward and very simple system with very few rules ontop of a simple but very customizable char creation system.
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I know 3.5 system very well and I played it for ages both as a player and as a DM and I can guarantee it will not blend well with the way PS and its settings is designed. I could go down to finely explain why point by point but it would take too much time, just let me say the magic system will not blend at all.
Running an old school D&D campaign on roll20.net there was a difficulty of most players not having access to the original basic/expert rule set. This lead me to simplifying parts of the system that required detailed knowledge/charts. One such area was magic.
In the original system there is the complicated handling of spells to level. That is to say, for example, a fifth level MU gets 2 first level spells, 2 second level spells and 1 third level spell when totally fresh for the day. When the player loads up his/her/kra's character in my online software many charts are uniquely generated for the character. One thing that is generated is spell points. Each spell is assigned X spell points. All first level spells are assigned 1 spell point, second level spells 2 spell points, third level spells 4 spell points and so on in an exponential fashion each level. A fifth level MU in my system gets 10 spell points to be used as they wish. The spell point assignment could be modified according to their intelligence (INT) stat to provide some variance. Each time a spell is used a record is kept. When they total the number of spell points that the software assigns them for their level then they are out of spells for that day. This system could be used on any magic system that the GM has assigned spell points to the list of available spells. It would not matter what Way is used, only if the character has the needed spell points left to cast it.
As far as classes are concerned, taking the old D&D system it would be my suggestion to only use the human stats with slight tinkering of those charts to give slight modifications for the different PS races. Kran would get strength (STR) bonus, perhaps others dexterity (DEX) and so on; much like halflings in D&D have.
My players generate their characters in cgi scripts of my creation. Those scripts then generate the D&D charts unique for each character. Most of my players have never seen a D&D basic/expert rule set. Yet with their unique charts that will change for them as they level and a list of spells and what they do they have all that they need to get up and running. Simplicity should be what is being sought in a system for PS. Many players come into my campaign having never played RPG and never having seen D&D rule sets; yet are role playing from the first session.
Who needs graple and climb skills when they can roll against dexterity (DEX) stat? The GM is there to add mods to the rolls so that, although the same basic roll, with mods it does not seem like it. My motto is the KISS approach (Keep it simple stupid). We are there to play not take a 1st year course in d20.
When all else fails we have a luck roll. A 1d100. Fifty or less they get their luck. Fifty-one and greater they fail. A player found a +1 sword in a treasure a few weeks ago. They asked what type of sword it was. They were asked to roll their luck. They succeeded. Because they were a halfling it ended up being a short sword. If they had failed it would most likely have been a hard to wield two handed affair.
Eonwind has my agreement that d20 is incompatable; yet for the reason that it is too damn complicated. If this idea is going to fly it has to be simple and fast paced in my opinion.
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I have been silent since Rig's first post because the conversation has turned technical here and as most of you know, I have little knowledge or interest in the technical aspects.
My interest in a SIMPLE dice based system is personal (perhaps too personal?) to Roled- due to a quirk in the early days RR managed to max all his stats. But I don't play them because it seems unsupportable to my character, who doesn't like to fight, and will only fight if he has to or to protect someone weaker.
So for me its how to play RR in a fight that doesn't discount his real training in sword and melee and magic and yet doesn't automatically overpower his opponent- the lucky blow to the jaw, the superior cunning or experience in a fight, the vaugeries of unclear situations. To make the fight interesting to both/ all and with no foregone conclusion.
So I see this as an enhancement to my role play. To acknowledge what RR CAN do and would, like protect himself with magick if he can, without playing superman with a little pacifistic elf.
I appreciate those who like and get the math and I am reading these discussions. Just wanted to reiterate my rp interest!
RR
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To give a little more clarity on what I had in mind:
For casual role play, some of the situations that we run into would include:
1. Player vs. Player RP fights
2. Feats - like making a potion or disarming a trap - ( within a roleplay session )
For more game-like RP *Events* as I proposed in the first post - where players embark on a player lead quest and start off with a common understanding of why they are there and what they need to accomplish - and possibly a fresh character for the event, I would predict a need for the following:
1. Dice fights against narrated npc characteres. ( these characters would either be alts or we would just imagine that they are there )
2. Feats ( like trying to interpret a scoll, detect a trap, or heal a fellow player )
3. Use items or abilities gained as a result of participating in this player lead event. Possibly gaining stats or skill in the process. Again, these stats and skills would be tracked by the goup, not by the game's mechanics.
I agree with Roled and Nova on keeping it simple, but also keeping it flexible.
For roleplayed player vs player fights, usually we just determine how strong the caster is what sort of defence the target might have, and what circumstances might aid to hamper the attack. Sometimes I overlook my own stats if the fellow player is playing a strong character but does not have mechanical stats. I tend to go more by what the character is supposed to be than by stats. It's rough guess work for the most part.
How hard could it be to approximate this with dice? Anything more accurate than a rough guesstimate would be equivalent.
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To give a little more clarity on what I had in mind:
For casual role play, some of the situations that we run into would include:
1. Player vs. Player RP fights
2. Feats - like making a potion or disarming a trap - ( within a roleplay session )
For more game-like RP *Events* as I proposed in the first post - where players embark on a player lead quest and start off with a common understanding of why they are there and what they need to accomplish - and possibly a fresh character for the event, I would predict a need for the following:
1. Dice fights against narrated npc characteres. ( these characters would either be alts or we would just imagine that they are there )
2. Feats ( like trying to interpret a scoll, detect a trap, or heal a fellow player )
I think what you maybe looking for is something very simple like rolling a single dice to determine the outcame of an action, should it be a RPed crafting or roleplayed fight action.
I still think something like I suggested would be very easy to use:
roll a dice + add a stat related bonus + add skill bonus + add an optional circumstance bonus -> if you beat a given difficulty you succeeded (*)
(*) when two players are fighting each roll a dice and the results are compared, the higher wins the tie
I feel this very simple and very flexible mechanism could be used for almost any situation where rolling a dice is suitable.
By choosing carefully the dice type and the stat and skill bonus even untrained character can have a chance to fight a trained charater: the bigger the dice the higher the randomness and less important the stats and skill become. Also by using carefully the circumstance bonus you can account for any situation like an already hurt character, a well played maneuver, having hard time fighting more than one opponent at time... ...
Just remember one thing the more a system is flexible the more common sense is required by the players to account for special situations, it's a double edged blade.
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So here's some preliminary ideas for formula guidelines which would be subject to negotiation and common sense. I used DW as a single example rather than repeating myself for each way. (CW is DW's opposite. )
Attack with DW: /roll d50 + DW/10 + CHA/40 ( = 1 - 80 )
Defend Against DW: /roll d50 + DW/10 + CHA/40 + Armour_bonus1 ( = 1 - 80+ )
Damage Dealt via Magic: /roll d20 + DW/10 +CHA/40 (1 - 50 )
Attack with Sword: /roll d50 + SWORD/10 + STR/40 ( = 1 - 80 )
Defend With Armor Against sword: /roll d50 + ARMOR/10 + AGI/40 + Armour_bonus1 (= 1 - 80 )
Dodge sword attack: /roll d50 + AGI/20 ( = 1 - 70 )
Damage Dealt via sword: /roll d20 + SWORD/10 +STR/40 (1 - 50 )
Feats:
To attempt a feat with a difficulty of 1 - 70
/roll d50 + Skill/10 ( = 1 - 70 )
1. Armour bonus - value between 1 and 10 for *enchanted* armour that protects against the way in question.
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Forgive me for this post - perhaps I don't understand it very well and I'm missing the point entirely. However, can I ask why you're designing a game to put in a game when there's mechanics readily available for everyone to use?
I can see this is somewhat popular but this does seem to be something more fitting in a forum-based community where an IRC roll-bot can be used. This does not seem to be fitting for a developing MMO game (besides using the lore)
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Forgive me for this post - perhaps I don't understand it very well and I'm missing the point entirely. However, can I ask why you're designing a game to put in a game when there's mechanics readily available for everyone to use?
I can see this is somewhat popular but this does seem to be something more fitting in a forum-based community where an IRC roll-bot can be used. This does not seem to be fitting for a developing MMO game (besides using the lore)
IMHO this is a legit question, for various reason (too long to explain here) roleplayers are uncomfortable using the real time game mechanics, given this fact I think it was better to outline a brief set of simple roll based "mechanics" than relying on different systems that while they surely efficient while used in other contexts they require hard work to blend with PS concepts.
So here's some preliminary ideas for formula guidelines which would be subject to negotiation and common sense. I used DW as a single example rather than repeating myself for each way. (CW is DW's opposite. )
[...]
yes, something like that, you understood the concept, in particular for melee fight opposed roll maybe done depending on the actions undertaken by fighters, for example:
1. Player A attacks with sword, player B dodges: A roll Sword Vs. B roll a dodge
2. Player A attacks with sword, player B blocks with a shield: A roll Sword Vs. B roll Shield Handling
3. Player A attacks with sword, player B blocks with a sword: A roll Sword Vs. B roll Sword
Armors do not avoid taking damage only absorb it so:
Player A has hit Player B: A roll Damage Vs. B roll Light/Medium/Heavy Armor
Magic example:
1. Player A cast DW, player B is not casting: A roll DW --> B absorb with DW resistance if any (enchanted armors give magic resistance) or B roll DW resistance if any
2. Player A cast DW, player B cast CW: A roll DW Vs. B roll CW
3. Player A cast DW, player B cast DW: A roll DW Vs. B roll DW
In fact the only ways to stop magic is opposing an opposite effect (usually from the opposite way), opposing the same way (mastering a way provide a way to defend against the same way) or relying an passive magic resistance and in fact enchanted items as much as opposed ways buffs provide magic resistance against the opposed way.
But RP situations are tricky so if all else fail and the situation is still worth the chance to try avoiding a spell effect, then use a "luck" or "dodge" roll:
4. Player A cast DW, player B dodges: A roll DW Vs. B roll a dodge.
These are just a few preliminary ideas.
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can I ask why you're designing a game to put in a game when there's mechanics readily available for everyone to use?
If you try to see the problems faced by role players from our perspective, then this solution might make more sense.
Problem #1 - Not everyone who plays wishes to level.
Leveling takes a very long time, and for some, it is seen as a very boring chore. Some of us find it far more enjoyable to focus on the role playing side of things and so we do not level that much, or do not level at all. Because of this, there is sometimes a huge difference in skill level. The difference is so large that an untrained character cannot be matched against a fully trained character. This means that if you use stats to resolve fights and you wish to role play a strong character, you have to spend a ridiculous amount of time leveling.
Should only maxed characters be able to play very strong characters?
The majority of players who I have come across who have maxed characters don't RP, they just train and train and train... and train. They don't have interest in RP or don't have the time because they need to train some more.
Typically, you want strong characters to be good, solid players and not people who are going to screw up a role play by saying stupid occ things that don't make sense, derailing it because they can, or just pushing their weight around with their maxed skills and not providing any entertainment in return. As it is now, role-played characters are as powerful as other players allow them to be. There's a sort of balance here as a result.
Problem #2 - The thrill of roleplaying vs thrill of mechanics fights
For many of us who role play, we find it far more immersive and enjoyable to role play our fights. While a fast paced mechanics duel can last for seconds or minutes without the hassle of reading and calculating stuff, they lack depth, description, and detail. I suppose its just a different type of thrill.
Problem #3 - difference of opinion and the need for conflict resolution
As you would imagine, there are sometimes disagreements about the outcomes of rp fights - ones that the mechanics system would automatically resolve. For many of us, we can make mutual judgment calls about success, failure and damage without a problem. The problem is when you try to have a cooperative rp conflict with someone who has very different ideas of what is fair and plausible , it can take the fun out of the game. A set of rules and conventions for resolving this with /roll is what we are after.
Problem #4 - handicap and difference in stats
There are times when you want to overlook large differences in stats and skill so that you can play with a newer player as if they were much closer to you in stats. To date, there is no way to give a weaker player a "handicap" so that they can participate as if they were close to equal. Roleplayers will sometimes overlook shortcomings in stats and just treat the character as being as strong as they are intended to be. This works well with players who can see eye to eye, but again, tends to not work when players have very different ideas about what is fair and believable.
Lastly, I was thinking that such a system could open up more possibilities for leading events.
I recently lead a small event with a few players where we discovered fissure in the death realm and ventured into it. We encountered a seemingly desolate and threatening underworld city and began to explore it. Upon entering a strange building one by one, the door through which we entered was slammed behind us, and in the complete absence of light, we were attacked by something gigantic, and vile....
During this small event, it occurred to me that if I had planned out an entire campaign complete with traps, challenges, obstacles, and rewards, it could have been epic. It was at this point that I saw how an enhancement like a dicing system plus a formal method for calling success and failure on various feats could enhance the game.
I hope this helps.
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/me very oocly wants to run into Rigwyn soon - he's itching for a fight :devil:
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As a roleplayer, I would never use something like this. This is way too complicated to be any fun. If it's not in the mechanics, very few will want to use it. I definitely don't.
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As a roleplayer, I would never use something like this. This is way too complicated to be any fun. If it's not in the mechanics, very few will want to use it. I definitely don't.
Easy peasy. Just ignore us. ;)
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Well, part of the idea here is that the cooperative RP that many of us do might not be so easy or intuitive for some players. Supporting some form of dicing as an alternative might help to include more players.
As for you Mr. Rolak, Brimstone and Fire is not over yet. :devil:
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I'm not going to be very popular for saying this but it's been on my mind for a very, very, long time.
I personally feel that this is a bad idea to implement into PS for a number of reasons. The most concerning reason is that this puts a definite wedge between RP'ers and players and shouldn't be encouraged. The reason why some players don't find it easy to be involved in these intuitive RP's is due to the fact that they're not adhering and conforming to the PS world nor the same set of rules that are fundamental to the gameplay of the developing gaming world. If you cannot acknowledge PS and all that in entails do not expect others to acknowledge your created set of rules. This will exclude players into two different factions. A healthy balance should be sought where RP is a compliment that adds to the experience to immerse a player. Gameplay is the backbone of any game and should be respected as such. If you cannot contribute to PS and be involved in the rich content and what it has to offer, I feel you should seek another means in which you can fulfil your wishes. When there are clear divides and groups between RP'ers and gamers like this it can only have a negative effect on the PS community as a whole.
However, how about creating /roll based games at Kada-El's? Give players a reason to socialize and RP and create an experience where in-game rewards pair with RP'ing and interaction. Perhaps even make an official betting game, or maybe games just for fun? This is just a suggestion.
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I personally feel that this is a bad idea to implement into PS for a number of reasons.
just to clarify: we are not going to implement this system in the PS code because we already support a complex game mechanics. This dice based system is only a way to use the /roll feature to better figure out RPed situations.
However, how about creating /roll based games at Kada-El's? Give players a reason to socialize and RP and create an experience where in-game rewards pair with RP'ing and interaction. Perhaps even make an official betting game, or maybe games just for fun? This is just a suggestion.
We recently released a gameboard at kada-el, try to check and right click on one of the tables in kada's basement you should be able to play the "tic tac toe" game with a friend!
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I personally feel that this is a bad idea to implement into PS for a number of reasons.
just to clarify: we are not going to implement this system in the PS code because we already support a complex game mechanics. This dice based system is only a way to use the /roll feature to better figure out RPed situations.
Ah, implement may have been a clumsy word to use. I meant to say use a /roll based system to determine in game events that already have an attributed system e.g a duel, or casting magic.
I'll definitely check out "tic tac toe" :thumbup:
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I'm sorry for missing your post Rigwyn. This should all be taken as my opinion and nothing else.
#1 You get what you put in. It may be boring at times but the good thing about PS is that there's a variety of things to do. Tired of mining? Well, lets go questing. Don't want to increase axe today? Fine, we'll make them instead. The game is how you make it and I like that aspect of PS. If somebody does not wish to RP then that's their choice and they're not getting the full experience whilst at the same time, if you RP and do not engage in the gameplay mechanics then you're not getting the full experience either. Stats and skills are and have always been a measure of strength for a character/monster. I don't see why some players refuse to acknowledge this and then expect all players to also acknowledge their personal scoring system. You can't RP as a famous weaponsmith if you've never even acquired a crafting book, cannot create weapon handles, or never been involved with any of the NPC smithing factions. You cannot RP as a powerful warrior if you're not skilled in a weapon, or can even put on chainmail, and you hit one-eyed rats for a living. Playing PS should be a rewarding experience and it's the time you put into it that should count. Levelling has never been easier in PS now. Everyone can become someone with some effort. I mean, sure, RP whatever you want but when the time comes to prove it you're character concept will fall flat in an instant. RP and gameplay should be a synergy and not an exception.
#2 That's a personal preference and I have my own opinion on this. Personally, just like #1 it's an easier way to RP glory. Anyone can /roll a fight and type an action and not everyone can duel effectively... it's more than standing still and clicking a stance. PvP takes practice to get absolutely right and there are factors of lag that everyone is subject to. You also have to train in your weapon, get the most out of your armor through enchantments and then there's base stats before you've even began... then there's weapon choice, weapon speed and counteracting your opponent and finding the chink in their defenses. Duels are based on stats and skills and it's no surprise that some find mechanical fights not thrilling... namely pure RP'ers. Acquiring all of these elements to become a powerful character requires interaction with others better equipped to craft weapons/armor and do enhancements etc. Interaction is RP and isn't that what we're trying to encourage? A characters skills also create many aspects of PS and most importantly, the economy of the world itself. With /roll and RP you're cutting out allot of PS' main functions in-game because there's no need for it. If more people take this direction, how can that be healthy for a developing MMO?
#3 Well, if I react aggressively in a RP it will be resolved through the mechanics. No /roll will work and I suspect I'm not alone in this thought. What happens in this instance, where one wants a RP resolution when the other wants a mechanical one? This is where the divide occurs – should both parties now ignore eachother from now on to prevent this occurrence from happening? Do we pretend this RP has never taken place? Do we behave against our characters to have an easier resolution? It's difficult for each group to take the other seriously if both have completely different ideas on how things should be resolved. This creates niches or RP'ers and groups of gamers and then there are complaints of how people are not interacting with one another.
#4 I'm not sure how to address this. If a player is weaker than I am then I teach them the ropes and show them how to level quickly and effectively so they can design and become the character that they want to be. Depending on the player and how they are comfortable playing I'll teach them OOC. There have been cases where I've RP'd the entire 'training' phase. There are even introductory books out there to help. In PS your character can be whatever you want it to be if you have the raw stats and time to prove it.
That sounds absolutely awesome and should be encouraged. We have difference on opinion with the /roll system but I would love to participate in an event like that. That sounds really fun and refreshing.
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I would love to see RP and game play work in synergy. I just don't see it happening though. They are just on entirely different wave lengths right now. It just doesn't make sense for everyone who visits Hydlaa for the first time to know jack squat about everything. What about all of that time they spent before arriving in the city? Of course you can't be a famous weapon smith right off the bat, but must you know next to nothing? I would much rather spend that time I could put into grinding, doing something that I actually enjoy, like RPing, or learning new things as a player. If I don't touch the mechanics, but I do my research, get good at writing sword descriptions, and find a good source of stock props why can't I be a purely RP'd smith? I'd put in just as much time as someone else would, and get far more out of it in my eyes.
And then there is the training factor. PS assumes that all people learn in the same way. It makes absolutely no sense that every single person in the world has to learn from the same trainers. PP, and tria are also broken too. Not much of the system, or anything about any MMO's makes sense when you try to add narrative logic to it. The two just don't mesh. No computer is ever going to be able to think on its feet, and make creative narritive choices on the spot. Not while any of us are alive anyways.
Sure anyone can type /roll and /me, but it takes real skill to make it interesting. Its the difference between SoandSo swings a sword
and SoandSo narrowly dodges the blade. Kra spins around using the momentum to heave his own sword down towards kra's attacker with crushing force.
Being descriptive, and reactive in an RP is a skill in and of itself that deserves far more attention than spending 300 hours learning how to smith 300q sabers. When I see a good RP'd fight, I get excited. I feel like I can picture it. When I see a purely mechanics driven duel, it just looks like two idiots running back and forth, idly swinging weapons in the others direction. Its just not fun.
I personally can't touch the mechanics. It makes me frustrated, and I never feel accomplished when all is said and done. I've tried, and it didn't work for me. So I RP whenever I can. I won't let numbers define my character as much as I won't let numbers define me. Stats and rules should bend to the story, not the other way around. Only a real, human player can do that. That is what makes RP so engaging to me. The flexibility, the creativity, and the reliability. If I wanted to play a game for the game play alone, I would not play Planeshift.
I am glad though that these points are being brought up. I love to hear other points of view. It often times gives me a new perspective on things. Perhaps we only save the dice conventions for special player run events?
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Perhaps we only save the dice conventions for special player run events?
That or maybe use the mechanics one step at a time? Another solution might be to have the rp fight in question and launch an attack emote followed by a single attack? This would allow for use of both rp and mechanics, at least for things that the mechanics can account for.
There are still some kinds of attacks and actions that would need to be called by players - such as an attempt to strangle someone, to heal a specific illness, or to hex someone or something.
I'm glad this discussion is taking place, and I'm glad to hear differing opinions and points of view on the topic.
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Ulfer is explaining everything I don't want to bother explaining. Thanks, Ulfer!
As a roleplayer, I would never use something like this. This is way too complicated to be any fun. If it's not in the mechanics, very few will want to use it. I definitely don't.
Easy peasy. Just ignore us. ;)
You do realize that's what most players will be doing if you use this?
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As a roleplayer, I would never use something like this. This is way too complicated to be any fun. If it's not in the mechanics, very few will want to use it. I definitely don't.
Easy peasy. Just ignore us. ;)
You do realize that's what most players will be doing if you use this?
My comment was referring, tongue in cheek, to your recent thread (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=41592.msg469562#msg469562). ;D
- Nova