Resurrect the PVP Zones

[Bonifarzia]

I think you come up with some good points, Volki.
The suggestion about stealing mechanics is nice - and also implies the option that a player can be in "yield" state, not only after (auto-)accepting a duel. So far, if you defeat someone in a PvP zone, during a guild war or via /groupchallenge, they are instantly sent to DR. No choices, no yielding. I think this is an aspect where PvP zones could be made much more interesting.

[Vaneal Serozen]

Just have certain areas in the wilderness set as PVP zones. Set them far enough away from the roads and cities so that someone can't just accidentally walk into them, but so that they are potentially in the path of the quickest route between cities. So, if you were to run in a straight(ish) line from, say, Ojaveda to Hydlaa, completely ignoring the roads, you run a risk of being killed along the way. This would have the added benefit of more player interaction on the roads.

Another good but questionable idea is to add small PVP zones into cities, for example the hidden alleyways and sewers, but tucked far enough away from places where beginners might go to train or quest. I swear that these at one point existed, but were rare.

As for making PVP worthwhile, we know for certain that we will never allow players to loot other players, so I propose this: allow stealing from other players, but only conditionally, and if the victim chooses. Assume that a player has been beaten or has yielded. The attacker can either kill the victim, let them go, or steal. The victim has a choice to offer something for their life. You'd need a longer wait period between losing and release, but I think this should only apply to PVP zones and be five minutes maximum.

Final idea (I swear), which I think would really help roleplay and tie into mechanics, is to make faction-based PVP. This is drawing from Dark Souls, but I could see it working really well here. Once you've joined a specific faction, a Dakkruist one for example, killing people could reward you with more faction rank but additionally give you points that you could exchange for money or items with an NPC in the Death Realm. Another (legal) example would be a gladiator faction, which gives you a point upon defeating another player in the Arena, and those points can be redeemed for money at an NPC in the Arena.

Tell me how all this sounds, because I'm pretty sure these ideas would save PVP. We need to make PVP great again!

As far as pvp zone placement goes, I have never been a fan of smaller more plentiful zones as players just run in and out of them freely to avoid any kind of conflict and may even abuse the boundary.  As far as pvp zones in towns go, I had high hopes that shindrok's crater would be a pvp zone seeing as though it is run by outlaws and cutthroats but i doubt this has been considered.

As to yielding in pvp zones, I am skeptical but if properly done it could be a nice feature. I believe it should be an option for the player to do if they want to avoid death and not forced on them like it is in a duel.  If it is forced on the player, it opens up the possibility of them being practically stun-locked by anyone who has nothing better to do than be a jerk for an indefinite period of time until they use the /die command to "escape" to the DR. 

Faction based pvp sounds like a nice idea but I am not certain it could be implemented with the factions in ps because a lot of them are not war-like and even dakkru only values the lives of the strong if I remember right.  I know, I mentioned it previously but I think it would be a headache to develop into game mechanics.

[Volki]

If it is forced on the player, it opens up the possibility of them being practically stun-locked by anyone who has nothing better to do than be a jerk for an indefinite period of time until they use the /die command to "escape" to the DR

I had the same thought as I was reading over my post. After a player  is released, they could be "immune" from other player attacks for a certain period, long enough for them to escape the range of a ranged attack. Otherwise it would be easily abused.

[LigH]

How much is PvP related to "roleplaying"? ... PlaneShift used to be a roleplaying-promoting game, which made it an exception among all the lot of other combat oriented games.

I don't mind allowing PvP for fun. But I doubt it should be a primary element.

[Bonifarzia]

I did not mean an active ability to /yield, but the passive mechanics that you get knocked down when your health is depleted. So, if you want to kill someone, you'll have to deliver another finishing blow. Actually, I think that could also be nice for arena NPCs - getting a reward for knocking them down, instead of the kill-and-loot mechanics. But yeah, off-topic.

[LigH]

So, if you want to kill someone, you'll have to deliver another finishing blow.

MORTAL KOMBAT!

[Rigwyn]

[Vaneal Serozen]

How much is PvP related to "roleplaying"? ... PlaneShift used to be a roleplaying-promoting game, which made it an exception among all the lot of other combat oriented games.

I don't mind allowing PvP for fun. But I doubt it should be a primary element.

I would have to agree with you about it not being a primary element but I don't want to see pvp zones also become ooc zones.  Some people are better than others at being consistent with their  actions but every now and then someone feels like goofing off and starting a little chaos.  Do I want to see a lot of /me or /my chat in pvp zones? No not really, we can do that any place atm.

I did not mean an active ability to /yield, but the passive mechanics that you get knocked down when your health is depleted. So, if you want to kill someone, you'll have to deliver another finishing blow.

Not a big fan of this because some time ago I have had a defeated target in yield state bug up so they were next to impossible to kill and even worse, could move and still attack.  Not sure if this bug can still occur and is rare or has been fixed.  Even if it was added to pvp zones it is not bullet proof as some enchanted weapons and damage over time spells kill targets in spite of the yield mechanic.  What annoys me the most is the screen confirmation window.  It has the potential to block your field of view and increase the time required to kill.  Not an issue if you are fighting a single target but if you are engaging multiple targets (players and/or npc's) things are going to be that much harder.

[LigH]

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh26/LARS_SKYNYRD/SubZeroFatality.gif

I can't see that as inline image, it's redirected to an ad-bloated website.

[Eonwind]

As we said several time since PS is heavily focused on RP every character action should be seen in the first place as an IC activity.

This is not to say we are evil and we want to force every action you have your character do in game as an IC action. This is just to point out that if someone sees your character acting in a certain way inside a PvP zone it's completely licit for them to treat this action as an IC action.
This also means we would like to setup the PvP in a way that makes them enjoyable IC areas rather than OOC areas (this was also the reason why we changed the arena setup in the first place).
Not every one (and every character) will enjoy a PvP area just like some character will not enjoy much a certain area like a tavern or a certain type of RP. That is perfectly fine, our gaol as a developers, is to make it so various gameplay styles are covered and enjoyable but do it in a planeshift style way.

That said my personal idea of "special currency" for PvP area is not to create a "currency" that compete with other types of already existing currencies or to create something you absolutely need to have for crafting a super equipment, it's more to offer a way to reward PvP activities somehow. The idea could be to give characters an alternative way to train, gain money, PP etc.
For example I was thinking about a repeatable quest(s) that send the players in that area for a IC reason and reward the player (maybe even if they haven't had any chance to kill anyone NPCs or PCs) in order to make the trip to that area worthy of the time to do so.

Other mechanics like faction mechanics or something like this, while interesting makes things require heavy work on the code base and so are harder to implement. On the other side using existing mechanics we could create this factions based on what we already have (e.g. some NPCs may not attack anyone with thief factions so some PVPers may side with the baddies against other players, while people with faction points in the guard could be charged to liberate the area etc.)

These are just draft ideas of course.

[Mouli]

It's sure that PS, should not been focused on PvP, but back in the past, the time when we were 200 online, lot of ppl were RPing and PVPing. with Guildwars, with over 80 players fighting (alliance of the light Vs Alliance of Chaos).
At this time PS was a game for everyone, and everyone was having fun. Players were Rping and RPer were Playing, not just RPing their skills totaly ignoring game mecanism.
Then because of few complain, PS decided to change direction, to enforce RP, with some rules and changes, it's been like this for quite some time, loosing players every weeks and last step of this was to split the small comunity and push half of the Player on EZPC.
Since I never seen more than 60 players online (weekend), and if you log in morning Eu timezone you can log with 2-3 players online...
So I'm ok to enforce RP, but if ps works better when your computer is on, It's also a lot more fun to play with 200 player online than 12...

[Gaheris]

Very nice thread.
Just my 2 cents.
I'm not a great fan of PvP (yet). But i can see it's potential to a game and PlaneShift in particular.

Reading all the posts, i would like to add/confirm the following.

Volki:
so I propose this: allow stealing from other players, but only conditionally, and if the victim chooses. Assume that a player has been beaten or has yielded. The attacker can either kill the victim, let them go, or steal. The victim has a choice to offer something for their life. You'd need a longer wait period between losing and release, but I think this should only apply to PVP zones and be five minutes maximum.

PvP as stated by others as well, should have a reward. Looting the tria might be the easiest and best way. Of course, as others also noted. A player should be informed entering a PvP area. Indeed a dead body should take longer to enter the Death Realm, so it can be looted. This extra time, might also come handy for another change i have in my head, but is not related to this thread. We can put our tria in the bank, so that can protect our rich merchants from dropping all their hard worked tria.

PvP could create RP as well, if played right. Like every action in PS can create RP if played right. So saying PvP-ers don't RP isn't a reason to stop PvP in PS. And many of us agree we need more dark/evil playing characters for RP?
PvP could very well, be a excellent way to create this.

Another way to create reward in PvP, is the following.
Create a 'guildhouse-alike' thing in the wilderniss. Maybe a tower or something. Make the area around the 'house' a PvP area. Guilds can own the house by controlling the area for a certain time. They can keep it for themselves or share it within their alliance. (And so making the alliance your in more important). It's not a reward like a mine, that declines other players to it's use, but it does give your guild a little extra / some fame. Of course the idea need to be worked out, since a guild doesn't have 24/7 online presence to keep the 'house'. Maybe some NPC's that fight along the owner that need to be killed as well. (I wish players could hire NPC's in the future for certain tasks like guarding)

One question as newbie to dual/pvp: Do you get experience points for killing other players?

[Rigwyn]

I don't think you get any points for winning pvp, but I think you did in the past. Either way, said points cannot be used for anything, so they're pointless.  :p

As for being able to spare one's live in exchange for an offering, I believe you CAN choose to spare or kill the player currently, so I don't see what would stop you from saying, "Your pants, or your life."

This is where OOC vs IC starts to seep in. From an IC perspective, it might make sense to part with one's dignity to be spared being send to the death realm. From an OOC perspective, it would be pretty stupid to give up something since you're going to back in 5 minutes and have the benefit of training under Dakkru's curse.  ( extra experience points gained )

Making the game allow you to forcefully steal from the other player is an avenue to violating the other player's will. If they were willing to let you rob them after a battle, they would do so willingly.

[Gaheris]

Thank you Rigwin for the quick reply.

I don't think you get any points for winning pvp, but I think you did in the past. Either way, said points cannot be used for anything, so they're pointless.  :p

If it were experience points, they are not useless. They can be used for training.

Making the game allow you to forcefully steal from the other player is an avenue to violating the other player's will. If they were willing to let you rob them after a battle, they would do so willingly.

That's why we need a warning signal/mechanic when players enter a pvp area. Then it's really the players choice to enter that area.

[Bonifarzia]

You only get the practice points for using your weapons and armor skills. A while ago not even these were given. But it was always fun to give out prizes for small PvP player events (e.g. left signature link).