Author Topic: Rolling Dice: Reloaded  (Read 285 times)

Rigwyn

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Rolling Dice: Reloaded
« on: December 06, 2012, 10:22:15 pm »

Rolling Dice:  Reloaded.

I've always been against rolling dice for combat RP.  Well, I'm considering taking a new look at this with unbiased eyes. We have all felt the pangs of RP combat at one point or another, and if you have not, you will. Trust me on that.

Why the hell would I want to consider dice?
Well, lets look at the problem with RP fights to start off:

1. Over powered characters:

Nobody wants to lose, and even fewer wish to lose unfairly. Some folks overpower their characters with awesome abilities and near-invulnerabilities to avoid the experience of losing. I honestly think that this is not always intentional. What exasperbates the problem is when you develop an environment of godmodes - each more powerful than the next. Fortunately, I have not seen anything this severe on PS.

2. Disagreements in taking damage

Nothing ruins an RP fight faster than a disagreement in how much damage one should take, and in how realistic the other player is being. There are those who will fight their point to the end, and others who will just cave in so as not to let the disagreement ruin the game. Either way, its a let down.

Well what about just doing what makes sense?

What makes sense to me and my *posse* may not make sense to you. Sometimes people have different ideas about what should be allowed to happen.  This also puts you into a smaller group of like-minded players. With a tiny RP community, playing with an even smaller subset of players just sucks.

What about just using the game's stats to determine who's more powerful?

The first issue with this is that it gives grinders the most power and role players the least. That's great if you're not a role player, but it you are, it means that the most powerful characters good or evil will often be some of the least skilled/entertaining role players ( and those who flat out do not role play ). The second issue is that it does not take the character's role played history into consideration.

Example:

    Mary is a new *player*. Her brand new character Emella is a seasoned warrior, though she has newbie stats.

    For role play, should a new player be allowed to do this?

    How should Emella's accumulated stats, scarce rp history, and background story be tied into the fight?
    How should these things balance out?

This is where the water gets awful muddy.


3. Problems with Dice

Not all dice systems work well Here's one example that got me rather pissed:

    HugeOgre grunts as he swings a 50 lb maul at TinyTim's head.
    TinyTim casually flicks a pebble at HugeOgre
    < dice roll decides that HugeOgre misses, and TinyTim succeeds - draining 15% or hugeorge's hp >
    < Yay dice gods >

 
Now I have to write a reaction emote for the Ogre!? This breaks realism.



Implementing a Dice System that works for RP

So now the question is, is there a way to implement a dice system that is conducive to role play and which does not break realism? Is there a way to make a system that:

* Is easy for players to use and understand.
* Takes into consideration the character's background story and role play history
* Takes a character's stats into consideration in a balanced way.
* Allows a character a chance at performing unimplemented feats and spells.
* Works with or without a GM or DM to moderate ?

While I don't know a lot about dicing, I did come across one suggestion that sounded promising. In this scenario, players would roll first, then write their emotes. So in the case of a fight, you would decide first if a swing would hit or miss and if the target would evade or defend. Then after that, write the actions and reactions. Hearing this idea made me think that perhaps there might be a way to make dicing work.

So I'm curious about what others think about this posbility, about how dicing systems from other games work, and so on. Anyone?


Aramara Meibi

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Re: Rolling Dice: Reloaded
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2012, 10:29:39 pm »
with yer ogre scenario, it still is plausible for the ogre to miss or tiny tim to dodge the blow. yer example i see is an example of bad roleplaying according to the dice. Instead of tiny tim simply deflecting the blow, I would have roleplayed him dodging quickly out of the way (being a small target does have its advantages) or maybe standing wide eyed and shocked as the maul comes crashing down beside me, the force of the impact knocking me off my feet.

but i guess that all depends on how the players interpret the numbers.

i still state that dwarf fortress has the best combat system in any game i've ever played, and it could still use some improvements and fine tuning.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 10:31:54 pm by Aramara Meibi »
all blessings to the assembled devotees.

Rigwyn

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Re: Rolling Dice: Reloaded
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2012, 10:33:18 pm »
Hows does this dwarf fortress system work?

Aramara Meibi

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Re: Rolling Dice: Reloaded
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2012, 10:39:52 pm »
all blessings to the assembled devotees.

Aiwendil

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Re: Rolling Dice: Reloaded
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2012, 06:26:49 am »
I know we have a slightly different opinion there Rigwyn but I really don't get the need of a complex dice rolling system at all. Maybe PS changed a lot in the last years but I just can't imagine any system that would work well. There will be always players who will just stay with the game mechanics. And players like me who will always ignore the mechanics completely.

For me it always worked best to not roll any dice at all and just try to write a good story together. But of course that isn't possible with everyone. So basically I tried to keep the few fights I had in PS with players I trusted. Of course that isn't always possible either...but a simple /roll 10 system for both was usually enough. It's about having fun together and playing out interesting situations, not about having a calculator next to your computer ( ;) ) just to find out what kind of roll command you will need next. If you have the feeling a fight goes "wrong" and is not really fun with the other player then just leave it to chance.../roll 10 is enough for that. Take the pressure off you to work towards winning a fight...you only have to write emotes that fit with the last roll of you both.

But what I try to say is...you won't be able to find a system that makes everyone happy. A lot people are proud of their stats and skills..and that is fine. But a lot people also will always just ignore these. I really can't see a good way to have both groups interact...so in the end it just boils down again that you better choose who you play with. It's in the interest of everyone that all have fun...if you can't have fun together look for someone else. That's a lot better than getting into useless arguments about who is worth more...the one who grinned silently for months or the one who never worked for anything in PS and only "chatted".

What I think is really a good way to deal with this is learning more about the others playing-style. Get into some training combats with others and figure out together what works well for both of you. And learn that fights don't have to end in winning or loosing at all. There are so many better ways to end a fight than killing the other (and have him stay in the DR for days). Have others intervene with fights and stop them without bloodshed, run away and hide, get too close to NPC guards and because of that stop the fight, have your weapons break..endless possibilities to end a fight without anyone feeling as looser. If you start a fight with the OOC objective to win it then you probably shouldn't start it in the first place..this will never end up in fun RP for everyone.

One the funny side..../rolls can lead to very funny RP situations as well...even with people you trust a lot. If you aren't exactly sure what you want to do...just use /rolls to determine what is happening. Never tease a female diaboli too much in a tavern...the /roll for her tail-slap between your legs could end up in a ten. I still feel soooo sorry for Orgonwukh for this...mainly because I wasn't able to type for minutes laughing too much about his emotes.

Bonifarzia

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Re: Rolling Dice: Reloaded
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2012, 06:42:59 am »
[...] I really don't get the need of a complex dice rolling system at all [...]. There will be always players who will just stay with the game mechanics. And players like me who will always ignore the mechanics completely.
I have to agree with Aiwendil here. It is not a bad thing when RP-fights leave room to ignore the mechanics entirely. I don't see a need to invent yet another /roll system that takes into account character statistics, as you can basically use PvP mechanics to do your roll, i.e. attack once and see if turns out as a hit, miss, block or dodge event.

Ebonwumon

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Re: Rolling Dice: Reloaded
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2012, 02:08:29 pm »
There's no recourse for those that, in a community game, disobey Wil Wheaton's Law.

For example, when I played there was a certain charater (and vast set of alts) that when one (admittedly quite godmoddish in strength) character was losing a fight, suddenly one of his alts would go green on my buddy list and conveniently show up and snipe the already weakened us. Systems can only go so far in helping combat the root problem in that playing with jerks isn't fun.


I am most certainly NOT the one known as Perriwinkle or Overtherainbow

Mekora

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Re: Rolling Dice: Reloaded
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2012, 03:28:37 pm »
the root problem in that playing with jerks isn't fun.

Yup... This.

Although, at the same time, nobody likes to be the victim. Some people I've RPed with who have low leveled chars will never accept any damage taken, let alone lose the fight at all. Thats why I prefer to stay away from RP fighting.

Cairn

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Re: Rolling Dice: Reloaded
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2012, 04:23:33 pm »
Honestly I believe the real disjoint is between player-smart and character smart.

When people fight, they tend to forget how their character would react, and instead just come up with the best possible scenario instead. Players will always tend to 'fight smart' instead of 'fight fun/realistic'.
I regret to announce that this is the end.

I bid you all a very fond farewell

Taya

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Re: Rolling Dice: Reloaded
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2012, 06:01:49 pm »
I don't want to dismiss this out of hand, but my initial response is to be very against dice-based RP. I'm also against RP based on stats/skills as they stand via game mechanics and frequently downplay Taya's abilities in several areas compared to what they would be based on these. (On alts I play as over their levels via mechanics and I have no issues with anyone else doing the same as well, be it their alt or their main.)

Both these things, mechanics and dice, are too strict for the fluidity I best love in RP. I love plotting with people. I love finding myself in a situation where yes, my character will get hurt because someone has managed to plot a realistic piece of RP that my character has no way to 'beat.' I also love the feeling when mine manages to outthink someone, and the other player stays true to character and accepts being beaten in turn. If these things become dependent on dice rolls instead of mutual agreement of the players and the flow of the RP, I'd lose most of my interest.

I know there are times when we all get bitten by our fellow RPers not seeing eye to eye with us and I know sometimes it would be wonderful to roll dice and make the issue go away. Maybe there are even a few occasions where this might work, but for me personally, I think the moment the other player insisted on a dice roll to determine events (excluding some very specific 'chance' type events), is the moment I'd apologize and walk away.

Eonwind

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Re: Rolling Dice: Reloaded
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2012, 05:41:01 am »
Despite the rolling dice seems to be not so loved among PS roleplayers I must say I'd be glad to use such system. I'm not a fan of combat RP because in my opinion it slows down what should be fluid, fast, furious and exciting. For the same reason, speaking about pen and paper RP systems, I favor the ones which handles combat in a simpler way, maybe sacrificing a bit of realism for fluidity.
Of course there are many other downsides and good sides of using dices but Rigwyn already listed most.

The dice system I'd like most would be one which accounts for skill but still allows untrained alt a decent chance to win the day (and untrained alt can always be given "fake" stats, provided they they're maxed only in a few skill selection ;) ), for example keeping the skill weight below 20% could be fair imo.

Another thing to consider is randomness, which is sometimes seen as a bad thing, but it's the factor sometimes makes good character loose the day (in real life too) and genius evildoers loose the day even if able to outsmart eveyone else.