Blue Way Spells and Glyphs

[Tessra]

I'll try to post this with as few spoilers as possible, but to be able to describe the problem adequately, I will need to post some.  Please don't read any further, if you do not wish to see any spoilers.

This is the third time in the chain of Blue Way training that I've needed a glyph for a new realm's spells that is only attainable through the Way Circle Quests at least one realm, up to three realms, out of reach.

It starts with Realm 2, when the glyph you need for any of those spells, isn't available until at least level 40/realm 3.  Frustrating, but at low levels, it trains fast enough even using the lower level spells.

Not too big of a problem, until you realize there aren't any Realm 3 spells, so you have to wait until Realm 4 to be able to efficiently train.  But once you reach Realm 4, you can't get one of the needed glyphs until another half-realm has been trained, and the other glyph needed for the second Realm 4 spell isn't available until Realm 5.  Again, irritating.

If you for some reason decide it's still worthwhile to train Blue Way, once you reach Realm 5, one of the glyphs needed for that realm's ONLY spell, is locked into the Way Circle Master Quest.  Another 50 levels away. 

This is not the only magic I train, and I've not seen Crystal, Dark or Red having this many forced stagnations in training. 

Levels 1-40: train on a realm 1 spell.
Levels 40-70: train on a realm 2 spell.
Levels 70-130: train on a realm 4 spell.

It's already been addressed that Water was one of the most rare glyphs in game, as a GM glyph, and now it's been added in at a relatively low level actually.  With the new Way Quests, even the rarest glyphs are now attainable, which is great.

I'll be the first to say, Blue Way is not a good way for people who wish to use magic for hunting.  The spells do very low damage, if any, on most profitable mobs, and they have a habit of crashing either the caster, or surrounding players in the cities.  Even people with above-recommended specifications crash routinely around me if I cast in Hydlaa.

However, Blue Way is a great Role-Played magic, and it has a lot of possibilities for the way the characters can utilize it.  For any players who like to back their RP up with actual skills and stats, it's somewhat daunting to see just how slowly the progression is for Blue.  It wouldn't be that big of a deal if all the Ways were like this, but in my experience, at least 3 of the other 5 are much easier and more practical in the way the quests, training, and glyphs are organized.  I hold the same realm for both Crystal and Blue, as my character is trying to become a healer, and what took me a matter of weeks for Crystal is taking me months for Blue.  To me, it seems like you shouldn't have to be realm 7.5 before you can cast the only realm 5 spell, especially when the other Ways don't have the same restrictions.

[Gilrond]

I agree. The new system makes training Blue Way pretty unpleasant for new mages (and I mean really unpleasant). Brown way also has realms without spells. Though Blue Way is the worst in the glyphs availability / current realm disbalance.

I think it requires general revision of availability of glyphs vs training efficiency (i.e. current realm spells). I'd expect that for normal progress it makes sense to get some spells for each realm and glyphs for them as soon as you reach that realm. I believe that missing spells is a hard thing to address, but it's supposedly being worked on (long term). However matching glyph quests to the realms is another matter, that wasn't really focused on before. May be Venalan can provide some idea if this issue is being addressed or not.

[bilbous]

What is really needed is some way of collecting and binding the profusion of naturally occurring glyphs. They were said to be everywhere from the markings on an animal coat to patterns on rocks and anywhere else you can find Jesus and Mary appearing. To go along with that and the way quests are the rituals to fuse them to a proper magical power substrate. The lower level glyphs could be easier to bind and so on. This "get your glyph from the quest" system really suggests the question where did that loser get his endless supply of glyphs to be able to hand them out on a whim.

It may be that this has been planned for and the current system is a stop-gap measure, maybe the forthcoming gemmology trade can be co-opted to fill the gap. I missed the introductory events but I'll be surprised if that already is the case.

[Talad]

There is actually a realm 3 level spell. Requiring two glyphs. I will have to check where those could be found, and if there is anything preventing players to find the spell.

In general I agree we need a revision of magic, adding more spells and balancing it. I think we can have a round at this after this crafting updates we are making now.

[Timil Deeps]

Agreed, Tessra, this is one of the main reasons I haven't pursued Blue way. I still only have the Blue glyph that Levrus sells, after months and even years of questing (prior to the introduction of Way quests, that is). I have gained multiple glyphs from pretty much every other way just in the course of random questing (much of which was spent trying to gain Winch access).

I doubt I'll pursue Blue until it is reworked and made more rewarding for the effort. Although the fact that it can be used creatively for RP does make it tempting....

[Gilrond]

I think some Blue Way glyphs are in the game but have no quests which provide them, so even if there are potential spells with them, they aren't accessible.
Here Tuux demonstrates the Mephitic Haze spell: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwFS0VELVQs
But glyphs are missing to research it.

[Tessra]

Having the Realm 3 spell would make training much easier at the Apprentice, and Lower Adept levels, but that still won't help the 50 levels you have to train on a lower realm spell to get to Master Level.  I'm quite surprised that as many people have Master Level Blue Way Magic as do.  [And by as many, I know of maybe 3-4.]

[Gilrond]

I'm quite surprised that as many people have Master Level Blue Way Magic as do.  [And by as many, I know of maybe 3-4.]

I know a few. It was easier to train before even with previous flat progression rules. Actually I'm not sure of anyone who reached that level starting from the beginning, after the major change in magic progression. On the other hand, Blue Way has some fast spells, and someone might overcome the realms disbalance with them. But it's really a lot of grinding now, which is totally the opposite from what the new system is supposed to promote.

[citizen]

When way quests came out i was about level 15 Blue way, trained with freeze until i was able to get water glyph and used icy blast to reach level 150. I trained all my ways up to 150.

[Chessire]

On the other hand, Blue Way has some fast spells, and someone might overcome the realms disbalance with them.

Unless the way magic experience is distributed changes, i think spell casting speed should also become a factor of the experience it gives. Dark Way for example has realm2 and 3 spells but they are pretty slower and mana consuming compared to the basic realm1 spell while their exp output is augmented only based on their realm. That makes the realm1 spell a better option for training.
Although the real issue for me is skills are leveled by long hours of repetitive clicking on spell shortcuts. Its quite unappealing and if nothing else mind numbing gameplay. We should try to get something that encourages the player to combine spells or maybe make spellcasting more complicated than a single click and more rewarding in exp. Or, at least, change the way experience is received, as awarding decent experience after a challenging foe is beaten, so that it'll be harder for the caster to fall into a loop of casting for hours on unchalleging or stationary enemies. Willing to brainstorm on it.

[Gilrond]

Well, major magic redesign is a big subject, and a long term plan of PS anyway. This particular issue is more short term (balancing realms / spells / glyphs availability from quests and etc.).

[Eonwind]

At the moment the formula that rewards practice points seems to account the spell realm, which is a good thing, but I think in the future the spell casting time should be factored in as well since it's a key element to be able to properly handle the levelling speed.

Soon gem crafting will offer a different way for mages to train and gain practice point and hopefully in the future, AI improvement will be able to offer more challenging hunting sessions than just spamming spells at weaker mobs.

[Gilrond]

I'd like for example to see some complex spells which require several mages to participate (and these can give more practice, also encouraging more RP and team work). But that's probably a big change for the engine. Since we are back on the subject of magic suggestions, you can take a look at these threads:

• Spells proposals
• Spells proposals [comments]