Author Topic: The Quarterstaff, Spear, and Polearm Project (aka, I Made A Stick)  (Read 2639 times)

Uadjet

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Re: The Quarterstaff, Spear, and Polearm Project (aka, I Made A Stick)
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2019, 08:42:09 pm »
Great work, Uadjet. I like it.

Would be nice to see more dents or scratches appear as the weapon gets damaged.

That's entirely doable. It's just a case of swapping out the texture as the item degrades. To do drastic changes would require a geometry change, and I'm not sure if that's as workable, but scratches and small dents should be doable. Here's some documentation that (I think) explains it: https://docs.unrealengine.com/en-US/Engine/Rendering/Materials/MaterialInstances/index.html

Oh, and made some progress. I'll post the screenshots tomorrow, but I'll give you all a peek tonight:

 

Those are the first two spearheads I did. The one on the right is the first, and it's the simplest spearhead on a basic hunting spear. The one on the left is for a boar spear, so it's got a spearhead and a crossguard. Currently I've got five basic spears planned (10 if you count steel and plat steel as separate items), and I think they cover all the melee needs. I've got:

Hunting Spear: Haft, spear head.
Boar Spear: Haft, spear head, crosspiece.
Short Spear: Short Haft, spear head.
Battle Spear (terrible name): Haft, spear head, end cap, butt spike (probably).
Long Spear: Haft or Long Haft, large spear head, end cap, butt spike.

There are also the quarterstaves (most basic, some complex), polearms, and the race-specifc items. It's a lot of items, but I did five spearheads and a pair of butt spikes in an evening plus a few hours the next day, so it will get done!

Uadjet

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Re: The Quarterstaff, Spear, and Polearm Project (aka, I Made A Stick)
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2019, 04:36:57 pm »
Okay, I've got four spears ready to post. I'd do the last, but rendering while running Planeshift is kinda slow. First the short spear, which is based on the assegai spear the Zulus used:



Got this done. The dark portion where the spear head meets the haft shouldn't be there, so I messed around a bit and figure out that an edge crease is just the thing to sort that out.



And here's an image of the final-for-now short spear:


Uadjet

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Re: The Quarterstaff, Spear, and Polearm Project (aka, I Made A Stick)
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2019, 04:40:41 pm »
Oh, before I forget I tried something out on the hunting spear. It's not quite ready for posting yet, but I put a brushed metal look on the sharpened edge. Not sure if I'll keep it, but it shows what a few tricks in blender can do!



That brushing controls both roughness and gives an illusion of varied depth, so it's pretty nifty for such a little thing.

Uadjet

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Re: The Quarterstaff, Spear, and Polearm Project (aka, I Made A Stick)
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2019, 04:45:00 pm »
Now the boar spear. A little more complex, but it's triangular so it's actually fewer polygons.



Here's a closeup:



That surface seems odd to me. Completely unlike the rest of the spear. DId some digging, and I split an edge that maybe shouldn't have been. Changed that, and got this:



Still needs work, but it's getting better.

Uadjet

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Re: The Quarterstaff, Spear, and Polearm Project (aka, I Made A Stick)
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2019, 04:48:06 pm »
Only did one render of the battle spear, but here it is. It's the first one with a butt spike on the back end.



Oh, I'll post this too. It takes quite a while, but by arranging the vertexes on the edges you can really get things to look smooth!


Uadjet

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Re: The Quarterstaff, Spear, and Polearm Project (aka, I Made A Stick)
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2019, 04:52:35 pm »
Oh, and here's a preview of the last one, the long spear:



It's noticeably bigger than the others, but I don't have the haft on just yet. It also has a but spike, but this one is more pyramidal than the conical one on the battle spear. Got a screenshot of one, but I'm not sure I like the proportions:

« Last Edit: November 24, 2019, 04:54:20 pm by Uadjet »

novacadian

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Re: The Quarterstaff, Spear, and Polearm Project (aka, I Made A Stick)
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2019, 05:42:21 pm »
Venorel thinks spear training may be a good idea.

Nice work, Uadjet!

cdmoreland

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Re: The Quarterstaff, Spear, and Polearm Project (aka, I Made A Stick)
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2019, 10:10:51 pm »
Venorel thinks spear training may be a good idea.

Nice work, Uadjet!

Grab a quarterstaff and a dummy.

Uadjet

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Re: The Quarterstaff, Spear, and Polearm Project (aka, I Made A Stick)
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2019, 07:52:04 pm »
When discussing the spears I mentioned that there are ways to give an object the illusion of depth, and how those can be used to make an object look like it has more detail than it does. I didn't explain it very well, so I'll post some images here that demonstrate what I'm talking about.

Here's a cube with some gouges in it.



You can see that there's one big gouge on the corner there, as well as several smaller ones on the sides. They look pretty good, right? Like they're deeper than the surrounding metal. Now, were that the case you'd need to add tons of small faces in each of those gouges. Over a hundred for the big one at least. That's a lot of extra work for people's video cards, given that the basic cube only has 12 triangles on its own!

Well, the cube still has only 12 triangles, and those gouges aren't really there. Those sides are still entirely flat! There's just some trickery that tells the program (blender in this case, or a game engine) to have those areas reflect light as if they were angled differently. That's how our eyes perceive small details, so our brains are telling us that those gouges are deeper than the surrounding area even though they really aren't. The geometry hasn't been altered at all.

Here are a few images of the same cube that illustrate that:







See how that edge is still a straight line? That's the gouge that appeared to go around the edge of the cube. Doesn't look like it does anymore, does it?  That's both proof that the depth is an illusion and an illustration of the limitation of the normal map. They change how light is reflected, but not whether or not the game has the light reflected at a certain location, so the outline of an object isn't altered at all. That's a bit of an issue when you're dealing with a spear shaft, as depending on what angle you view it from EVERY spot is part of the outline! It's not as bad on the spear heads, though. The edges are part of the outline, but the flat faces can be altered by normal maps quite a bit.

Uadjet

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Re: The Quarterstaff, Spear, and Polearm Project (aka, I Made A Stick)
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2019, 11:43:40 pm »
One thing I didn't like about the spear images I posted earlier is that the wood looks entirely flat. In some images, the 12-sided spear half looked like a flat drawing. Gotta fix that. I can do a bit by creating a higher poly version and then projecting that shaped onto the existing shaft, creating a normal map that is more rounded, but I think most of the reason it looks so flat is that there's no fine detail on the wood other than the color. Well, that's fixable too!

Blender has an initially intimidating number of ways to generate textures instead of downloading images from websites, but once you get used to what they can do you can slowly add bits of information to what you know as you need to. Last week was wood week for me, and I'll see if I can apply what all of those tutorals and forum posts have taught me.

Here's the wood I have so far.



I've used the same grain for all of them because... well, why not? They look a bit odd when you set them next to each other like that, but so do multiple copies of the same item. The only way to avoid that is to make each spear generate a new texture, and any actual game developer that heard that would likely slap me for even suggesting it.  :oops:

But you can see that I've got what I'm thinking of as White Oak, Oak, Threestem, Black Walnut, and Cherry. Not sure why I made cherry. Just wanted red wood, I suppose. All I had to do was copy an existing wood and change the colors, so it's not like it took too much time. 

Now, those are a bit glossier than the others I posted, but that's just a change in the roughness slider. Still no fine details in texture, as you can see when you look at the highlighted sections of each staff. They're just entirely smooth wooden dowels. Kinda boring. Let's see what we can do.

Some of the wood materials I've seen have the different colors in the grain differentiated by either normal map or roughness map. I'm not sure if the roughness should be different, but I can run that grain through a bump map to give the final material a bit of variety.



And here's an angled view, which may give you all a better idea of what the difference is.



An odd site note: The top texture (white oak) worked fine, but the only way I could get the other woods working was by connecting the bump node to the grain from the white oak node group instead of the node group for its own wood type. No idea why. I'll have to simplify my node arrangements so that I only use one grain node group for all woods instead of duplicating it for each type. Simpler, cleaner, and less likely to do weird things like that.

Uadjet

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Re: The Quarterstaff, Spear, and Polearm Project (aka, I Made A Stick)
« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2019, 08:19:32 am »
Fiddled about a bit. Still haven't figured out what's going on with the bump maps, but I can work around it. The lowest staff in this picture is the one with scratches added.



Now, the grooves that align with the grain might be a bit deep, so those could be smoothed out a bit. And that leftmost scratch shows a weakness in that process, as it just looks fake. I might have to run those through the roughness connection as well, just to make them a bit more visually distinct. The problem is that these are such fine details that I think time is better spent on making the six versions of each item (three levels of detail for both steel and plat-steel) rather than perfecting scratches that may or may not make it into the game.

As for the rest of the material, I was also planning on doing just a slightly stretched noise + voivod (forgot the name) texture to randomize tiny bumps to give it more detail, but with such a busy grain I don't know if the wood really needs those details. Each bump would be less than a millimeter wide, so that kind of thing doesn't seem to urgent.

So I think I'll switch to getting a good metal material (well, three of them) and the lower detail versions of each spear ready. It's tempting to work on the fine details and fiddle about with more complex shapes for the race-specific spears, but those will come easier after I've had more practice doing the grunt work of finishing what I'm currently working on.

Anyways, that's my update!

cdmoreland

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Re: The Quarterstaff, Spear, and Polearm Project (aka, I Made A Stick)
« Reply #26 on: December 24, 2019, 01:06:31 pm »
 :thumbup: Still training!

Eonwind

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Re: The Quarterstaff, Spear, and Polearm Project (aka, I Made A Stick)
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2020, 03:29:50 am »
Excellent job Uadjet!!!

Just a  side rules note: to have the polearms ready to go and up to speed with other fighting styles we also need:
  • Some crafting rules: many crafting rules could already be there (to be checked) but it surely requires a new book with new recipes.
  • Quests: new crafting requires a quest implementation to get the crafting book, it also requires one more training quest (for crafting skill)
  • Combat: we have already designed some special moves (http://planeshift.top-ix.it/pswiki/index.php/Combat_System#Staff_and_Spear) but still it's required an Academy a full set of quest to tell a story about the academy and lead the character to learn the special moves they teach.

This may sound a tremendous amount of work but it could be a community effort  :)

Uadjet

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Re: The Quarterstaff, Spear, and Polearm Project (aka, I Made A Stick)
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2020, 08:34:15 pm »
I haven't done the assembly instructions, but I've done the x ingots makes y lines. About 650 lines of steel and the same of plat steel. They need a thorough checking, but it's a start! As for books, I've been thinking spears and quarterstaves in one book, and polearms in a second. Plat steel items would be two more books with the same division, and the race-specific items would have their own book. Honestly I'd love for each race-specific spear to have its own diagram type book, but that's just too many books to add.

As for quests, it shouldn't be too hard to do. I can't think of any NPCs who use staves, but I'm sure it'll come to me. I assumed this would all fall under Blades Making, and there's already a skill that trains that, and the combat skill could be raised with the same quest that trains the other skills. Just need to add a branch for staff, spear, and polearms.

The Academy thing... sounds fun actually. I'll take a look at the moves in that school.

Eonwind

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Re: The Quarterstaff, Spear, and Polearm Project (aka, I Made A Stick)
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2020, 02:38:51 am »
I haven't done the assembly instructions, but I've done the x ingots makes y lines. About 650 lines of steel and the same of plat steel. They need a thorough checking, but it's a start! As for books, I've been thinking spears and quarterstaves in one book, and polearms in a second. Plat steel items would be two more books with the same division, and the race-specific items would have their own book. Honestly I'd love for each race-specific spear to have its own diagram type book, but that's just too many books to add.

Excellent.
About books I would prefer to strip down the number as much as possible, possibly to 2 books (normal stuff, plate steel stuff), if possible (aka the number of items is not too big and it is not too hard to read/use). Reason is when it comes down to make fixes/maintenance in the database I find it easier to perform the task and another reason is I perceived players prefer to change the mind slot (book) as less as possible. Third reason is we need a quest for each book and for me each quest have to be unique and I don't like simple copy & paste quests (so the creative effort and challenge to put in quest writing is a bit more). Aside these consideration is more a matter of "philosophy" than real technical problems.

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I can't think of any NPCs who use staves, but I'm sure it'll come to me. I assumed this would all fall under Blades Making, and there's already a skill that trains that, and the combat skill could be raised with the same quest that trains the other skills. Just need to add a branch for staff, spear, and polearms.
this because we hardly have polearms in game. Once they are available this may change, with settings permission, and we can assign some NPC to be a polearm trainer or crafter, etc.

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The Academy thing... sounds fun actually. I'll take a look at the moves in that school.
actually you can get some inspiration from the Academy already released, and we have already a full set of quest for a second academy (unreleased, yet), written by Zunna. If you are interested I can let you read them.
We also have a couple of inspiration, draft for 2 more academies: archery and axes, but we haven't had anyone starting the quest writing yet. Fun thing is most of special moves (archery, hammer) are ready rules side, bu we won't release them untile the whole package (which includes their own academy quest) are ready to deliver.

We still miss an idea, draft for polearms completely, so, if you have an inspiration, let us know.  :)