PlaneShift

Gameplay => In-Game Roleplay Events => Topic started by: iridia on January 10, 2016, 02:22:13 pm

Title: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: iridia on January 10, 2016, 02:22:13 pm

Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4696712/shot185.png)


On Dwanden 28th [January 10th] the building known as the Red Crystal Den located in Hydlaa and all assets within were seized by the Octarchal Guard due to breach of the conditions underwhich possession of the building was granted by The Octarchal Society for Progress.

As of now the property and all assets within the buliding known as the Red Crystal Den are off limits to the public and any access or permission granted to current management by the Octarchy has now been revoked.

The Octarchy has reached the decision to seize the Red Crystal Den due to following reasons:
~ As the building was awarded by The Octarchal Society for Progress use of the building was expected to be maintain under the origional agreement. For example as performing a consistant benefit to Octarchal Citizens.
~ The enrollment of current management into the Red Crystal Den was handled erroneously by several involved parties. The takeover of Octarchal property should not have been allowed without fully establishing the ability of the interested parties in maintaining or improving the impact the Red Crystal Den was having on the community. However, at the time the social function of the Red Crystal Den for the local community outweighed the consequences of this mishap.
~ There has been a lack of clear management or organisational structure, nor has there been any indication of regular opening hours or regular activities taking place within the Red Crystal Den.
~ The value of the Red Crystal Den as a public space for social gatherings has been deminished due to this lack of activity. The result is that the establishment does not meet the requirements set by the Octarchy for public properties, especially such prominent ones as the Red Crystal Den.

Octarchal plans for the property.
The property currently known as the Red Crystal Den will undergo renovations after which it will be reinstated as a public space freely available for social gatherings and events. The building will then be permentanly open for use by citizens of the Octarchy.

For special occasions (specifics to be determined at a later date) the building known as the Red Crystal Den will be made availble for rent. These special occasions will include a specific layout of furnature to be supplied by the Octarch and removed by the Octarch after the event. Possible uses include a stage for performances, dinning hall for dinners and or celebrations, dance floor for parties.

[OOC STATEMENT GM TEAM]
A few months back a discussion was started about the RCD and the possibility for players to organize things there. As GM's we had noticed that there are no regular activities under current staff, yet there appeared to be plenty of others interested to take a more active role.
At this point we contacted Damola as she was the only player involved in the RCD at that time that was actually active in game. We discussed about our concerns about the RCD and she communicated those to the community.

Originally the RCD was given to a group of players by means of an 'OSP contest', in this contest they layed out a plan for the RCD within the rules and guidelines in what we call 'public guildhouses' as they are intended for the whole community and not a select group of players (like a guild).

It may be clear that the idea of 'Fine Dining' is not working out for the RCD. So one of the main points that we had brought up is that the GM team wanted a clear plan about the future of the RCD and what the IC function and identity of the RCD is.

Conditions Public Guildhouses
The rules are very simple, the house is to be used for RP only and regular activities are organized. Everyone who is respectful and doesn't cause trouble is welcome and allowed to join into the activities.

More info:
Guildhouses as RP rewards http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=41147.0 (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=41147.0)
OSP Event Rules http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=35378.0 (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=35378.0)

For the last 12 months (and time before that) there has hardly been any activity at the RCD. Opening nights were irregular and only one event was organized by the staff. When there were things organized it often proved to be very difficult for the staff internally to work together, or even show up for the event itself.

Needless to say that over time the personal relations between the members of the RCD staff haven't gotten much better. The attitude of some of the staff also hasn't given us the impression that there will be any change in this, meaning that we also don't expect any increase in activity at the RCD.

Over time the GM team has provided the RCD with quite some support and resources. At the time we gave that support hoping it would motivate the staff and see an increase of activities.
We also told the staff that to get support we would need to see activity at the RCD to justify the support we are giving.
After all, there are more initiatives who often get much less support from the GM team, while each initiative taken by players is equally valuable to the game.

As mentioned before; we asked the staff of the RCD for a plan for the future of the RCD and what the den will mean IC'ly.
As far as the GM team is aware there is no plan made for the RCD and even some of the staff has decided no longer to be a part of the RCD.
After that we have gotten several more requests for support but have yet to see a plan or any activity at the RCD.

Due to all of the above the GM team has decided that it is necessary to close the RCD so the space is put to a better and fairer communal use.
This means that; per [date] access to the RCD will be revoked for all current key owners, IG their will be RP by the Octarchal Guards to evict and announce the eviction to the public (see IC text) and the GM team will put the space to use as a public event hall (more info soon).


We hope that, although this announcement may come as a shock to some, that our decision will improve the game and make space for new ideas and initiatives.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Damola on January 10, 2016, 05:02:11 pm

Damola approaches at a rapid pace and jumps of her rivnak, just leaving it standing there.

Damola reads, with more and more surprise appearing on her face.

Damola says silently "They didn´t even talk with me."

I had it open yesterday.

Its true I didn´t open in a while before, and also I didn´t see Weased and Sulaika around for quite some time, but still, the Octarchy could have at least talked to me.

Damola looks pale "Just crammed closed. With all our beverages, dishes and other inventory."

Damola concludes "So thats how they say thanks for at doing our best to keep it alive."

Damola shrugs "I don´t care about all the values inside, but well, if the Octarchy doesn´t want our engagement then so be it." Damola says stiffly "I have enough other things to do."

Damola looks to Arane "I am done here. I never go where I am not invited anymore."


[I haven´t even been informed OOCly. If thats the thank for all the time I invested into the Den, then I am pretty thankful to free up this time completely. And I intend to very carefully check before I ever want to consider time into something like this for PS again. Its not that I would not have let go of it, after I found myself alone with the Den again, yet, just doing this without even talking to Waesed, Sulaika or me OOCly is not what I receive as respectful treatment]

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Damola on January 10, 2016, 05:20:44 pm

I add that during the time I placed the "Rent the Den" flyer on the billboard and now not a single player approached me to actually take on the offer. Damola had a key to give away all the time.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Ascomanni on January 10, 2016, 07:55:48 pm

This looks like a wonderful idea full of limitless potential. I am exceptionally excited for this new direction. I imagine this was a tough decision for the GM team and appreciate the team as a whole for their work and dedication.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Candy on January 10, 2016, 08:15:09 pm

Quote from: Dajoji on June 06, 2009, 01:09:34 am

Now that we have two OSP members and each has been granted administrative rights over Octarchal property, there are some rules we should make clear for everyone:
...
3. All players must have free access to all OSP venues and events as long as they respect the rules set for them. Likewise, they must respect the authority of the sanctioned administrators both IC and OOC. You, as a player, can bring any character to those places. No fees, no quests, and no acquaintances are required. And if your asked to fulfill any of those criteria you must report it so we can set it right.

[The RCD was not freely available all the time. Keeping OSP-granted locations open 24/7 is a much better way to enforce this rule, and I applaud the team for doing this. It proved extremely difficult to get online at the same time as the players in charge and acquire a key - now we can roleplay bartenders in the Den at any time if we want to. I look forward to having the character I had in mind to help revive the Den behind the counter more often.]

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Damola on January 11, 2016, 04:22:37 am

It is not the decision to open the Den 24/7 that is the issue here. Damola and I as a player would probably have agreed with that after the recent attempts of Waesed, Sulaika and me to invite player engagement did not create the desired outcome yet, but… the way the GM team did this. The "how" is the issue, not the "what".

Dear Iridia, dear GM team.

A day ago Damola opened the place again after a longer break, I took during my OOC holidays to actually have holidays from any obligation to open the Den as well for a while, and after looking at how many players are online at quite some evenings and deciding that there is no point in opening it with less than 20 players around. A day ago Damola opened the Den and invited player participation as I decided to end my PS wise vacation and continue working towards inviting more player participation regarding the Den. She actually invited events. Response: 1, in words, one guest, before she decided to close again.

I am online a lot of evenings both in IRC and in PS. It would have been very easy for you Iridia and any other GM to approach me about your planned change as well as it would have been very easy for the Octarchy to approach Damola ICly. In addition I see quite some ways to create a smooth transition that makes some sense ICly as well and actually creates an IC way that makes sense for Damola and other members of the existing Den team to be involved with a 24/7 open Den.

But what you did, Iridia, after all the time we spent together on building and creating for the Den, was this: Instead of talking to me you beforehand you just decided to let the Octarchy close down the Den to implement the change you desire for the Den. You didn´t talk to me OOCly nor Damola ICly about this change.

Back then when we talked in IRC about the future of the Den, I felt quite some pressure after the talk. As if I have been given an ultimatum. You told me we need to change things and come up with a plan. We accepted the challenge despite the demotivating pressure and started doing that. Sulaika, Waesed and me spent hours over hours into doing so. Dannae created the two beautiful flyers about hiring and renting the Den for us, based on our textual input.

As a GM you are given more power than a player and as long as those who gave you that in game power let you, you can do basically anything what you want. At the same time I am free to provide feedback to you about an immediate effect you created with your action.

If your intention was to destroy any motivation of both a character ICly and a player OOCly to ever engage with anything substantial regarding Yliakum or PlaneShift again, Iridia: Congratulations, you have been successful. My motivation to ever invest time into creating something lasting and substantial within PS is down to less than zero at the moment. And for Damola ICly it doesn´t make sense either right now to ever engage with the Den again, given it was another char who informed her the Den was locked down by the Octarchy and she stood before a barricaded door then not understanding anything at all anymore.

If your intention instead was to invite more player participation then the immediate outcome in my eyes is: You didn´t create that outcome. Instead you got rid of existing player participation. Inviting more player participation does not work by p*ssing players off.

The situation around the Den is a symptom, not a cause. The cause I see is: Lack of players who actively and consistently engage with creating RP atmosphere within PS and commit to do so over a longer time. The cause for this lack is deeper. In my oppinion and the oppinions of quite some other players I talked to it is mostly caused by how this project is lead and developed in the recent time. Many players I came to know closely within the last years quitted the game silently, not seeing any sense to provide feedback on why they chose to do that. It was challenging for both me and Damola to loose friends that way.

Considering the tells I received yesterday, I am quite confident that I am not the only player who actually feels disrespected and surprised by your recent decision. But neither I as a player, nor Damola would lobby anyone to voice their feedback to you or here in the forum. Even back then I received quite some feedback for people not in favor of opening the Den 24/7. But these players apparently aren´t the most vocal here. In respect for that I never urged anyone to speak up here. Neither I nor Damola will ever lobby anyone into something.

The most vocal players here appear to be those who demand. Let´s see whether they will now also create and give. Its not that the now past Den team did make it very difficult to engage with the Den. Damola had a spare key of the Den since quite some time and bet what, if someone ever attempted to get it: She would likely just have given it. But: There was no *single* attempt to even ask Damola for the key, despite the flyer about hiring and the flyer about renting the Den have been up for weeks at the new billboard that you placed there after my request. So its not that I, Damola, Sulaika or Waesed actually created a tough barrier to cross in order to engage with the Den. Yet as far as I know: No one even attempted to do so. Certainly not with me or Damola. Despite, well one attempt for a lottery event that was cancelled. Granted I did not yet post about the new flyers in forum, but for any player in game they were really not difficult to spot.

Neither for me OOCly, nor for Damola ICly it would make even remote sense to engage with the Den ever again at the moment. If the Octarchy would have treated Damola with respect, this might be different. But if the Octarchy appears to be socially incompetent enough to her not even attempt to talk to her before doing this harsh action, there is no surprise that Damola right now has no motivation to engage with the Den again. In fact Damola doesn´t know anything about the 24/7 demands as the Octarchy nor anyone else never ever contacted her about it ICly. So the immediate outcome of your action is: You lost one of the last chars and players who actively engaged with the Den on a not always  regular, but at least consistent base as you can review in the bar log that you also seized now. Luckily I have a local copy. I recorded most, but not all of the openings in it.

I close with: In the best intentions for PlaneShift and its in game world: Good luck with opening the Den 24/7. Without Damola for now, cause how the Octarchy did this, actually does not invite her participation. And those who know Damola, know that Damola never goes anywhere where she does not feel invited.

Inviting player participation works by: Inviting player participation. It is actually that easy. Yet, it does *not* work by pressuring players into any obligation and basically threatening them "If you don´t do enough, we take it away from you". And then out of a sudden deciding to pull them out of the business without even talking to them and finding a way to create your intended change in a collaborative way. I am not sure about Sulaika and Waesed, but Damola and I very likely would have agreed to accomodate for the lack of players who engage by opening the Den 24/7 and cooperated with it. But you didn´t even attempt to choose that route.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: cdmoreland on January 11, 2016, 11:15:50 am

Well, one more headache gone. >:( It's just as well, I guess, as I need to have surgery next week. I stand with Damola on the fact that we just got it stuck to us by the GM team.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Wocib on January 11, 2016, 12:23:02 pm

Who can we contact ICly for taking over the RCD ?
POC have some Bloody good ideas for having fun in there ... can we make RCD a PvP area ?

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Candy on January 11, 2016, 02:13:57 pm

Quote from: Damola on January 11, 2016, 04:22:37 am

The most vocal players here appear to be those who demand. Let´s see whether they will now also create and give. Its not that the now past Den team did make it very difficult to engage with the Den. Damola had a spare key of the Den since quite some time and bet what, if someone ever attempted to get it: She would likely just have given it. But: There was no *single* attempt to even ask Damola for the key, despite the flyer about hiring and the flyer about renting the Den have been up for weeks at the new billboard that you placed there after my request. So its not that I, Damola, Sulaika or Waesed actually created a tough barrier to cross in order to engage with the Den. Yet as far as I know: No one even attempted to do so. Certainly not with me or Damola. Despite, well one attempt for a lottery event that was cancelled. Granted I did not yet post about the new flyers in forum, but for any player in game they were really not difficult to spot.

Bull. I asked for a key, made an effort to get online and had the chance to ICly bartend all of once before Timezone Tag became an issue. Just because I didn't want to run a whole event there, doesn't mean I didn't want the place to be revived. Also:

Quote from: Damola on January 11, 2016, 04:22:37 am

Back then when we talked in IRC about the future of the Den, I felt quite some pressure after the talk. As if I have been given an ultimatum. You told me we need to change things and come up with a plan. We accepted the challenge despite the demotivating pressure and started doing that. Sulaika, Waesed and me spent hours over hours into doing so. Dannae created the two beautiful flyers about hiring and renting the Den for us, based on our textual input.

[snip]

Inviting player participation works by: Inviting player participation. It is actually that easy. Yet, it does *not* work by pressuring players into any obligation and basically threatening them "If you don´t do enough, we take it away from you". And then out of a sudden deciding to pull them out of the business without even talking to them and finding a way to create your intended change in a collaborative way. I am not sure about Sulaika and Waesed, but Damola and I very likely would have agreed to accomodate for the lack of players who engage by opening the Den 24/7 and cooperated with it. But you didn´t even attempt to choose that route.

You're contradicting yourself in your own post.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: CheatCat on January 12, 2016, 03:53:04 am

Pressuring players into action might work but it is demotivating. I do not see how that would contradict anything. The result will become in general bad if you are forced into something.

There are better way to do things. The GMs could help the staff instead of blaming them for their game is running low on players. Is it really the RCDs fault?

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Yenida on January 12, 2016, 04:09:31 am

I have no strong opinion about the contents of this decision, I welcome everything that enhances RP on the server.

But I'm not happy though with how the decision was executed. I miss the 'sorry-that-this-didn't-work-but-thank-you-for-trying' aspect. All efforts of RPers should be cherished, we don't have too many of them.

Yen, of course, had her own IC approach...

(http://i.imgur.com/OAfXIXb.jpg?1)

RP hyperbole, I appreciate equally well all efforts of the GM team

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Rigwyn on January 12, 2016, 04:35:20 am

LoL.... this PS drama never get's old.

They could rip it out of your hands without asking, so they did as if there was
no other viable option. Congratulations on pissing off more players. Before long
there will be no community at all.

You have a great game, so no need to worry about trashing the community. Just
build the software and the community will magically show up and form, right?

Honestly, the game itself isn't what's bad. The graphics could use a little cosmetic
reworking and sugar coating, but it works rather nicely otherwise.

Gee... I wonder what drives people away?

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1a/Laughing_Fool.jpg)

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Wocib on January 12, 2016, 06:58:59 am

Quote from: Rigwyn on January 12, 2016, 04:35:20 am

Gee... I wonder what drives people away?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1a/Laughing_Fool.jpg)

Maybe You ? or it is not even a solution you can imagine...

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: miadon on January 12, 2016, 11:48:30 am

The game will -never- reach it's peak again, which was around 2005/6 when you could get between 200-300 players online during weekends even without events.

Just have to watch this old video I made all those years ago to show how busy it was: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuA5TlJPTXI

The forum is a ghost of itself too, Looking at the forum stats shows a sad decline (ignoring a few stats that got distored by spam bots).

In April 2006 you had 32 new topics and 247 posts in just 1 day.

In September 2015 you had 16 new topics and 183 posts for the entire month.

So as cliché as it sounds you have to treasure those who remain otherwise the game will be completely dead in 5 years time.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: BoevenF on January 12, 2016, 03:42:23 pm

I remember in late 2009, when I first came in Hydlaa. I couldn't even type a word in english without crossing my fingers, so basically I was playing in shadows so to speak (I can't type a word fast enough even now, for what it's worth).
One night I remember there was this *huge* crowd just outside of RCD, at the stairs leading to Kada El's... I was staring at the people, trying to separate the chaos of text in my main, at least 30-40 characters I believe, and for what? A duel of some sort. I mean, it was simply *wow*...
back then the leaders were the ones owning the secrets of gold and platinum...
back then I could use an intel Atom with 2 gb ram to play decently.
then there has been some updates in CS engine and PS client, and balancing of economics and crafting, and petty player confrontations, and people started leaving.
I've been in RCD only once or twice, I think, so yeah don't blame this RCD move for the lack of players.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: gonger on January 12, 2016, 04:08:36 pm

There are many things about RCD I do not know.

I do not know under which conditions the house was given to whom.
I do not know what were the troubles between the people running the RCD.
I do not know what were the troubles between them and the GMs.
I do not know whether the seizure of the RCD was justified or not.
I do not know...

But I do know that this one line is very much disturbing:

Quote from: Damola on January 10, 2016, 05:02:11 pm

Damola says silently "They didn´t even talk with me."

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: cdmoreland on January 12, 2016, 04:32:37 pm

They didn't tell me, either. I found out here on the forum. I was even at the Devs meeting Sunday.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: verden on January 12, 2016, 08:24:04 pm

Miadon is right. I was there. Although I think the most I ever saw was about 215 online on a Saturday probably in 2006-2007, and that would have included quite a few alts. I'll say it once: The project needs a serious rebranding and update of the artwork. Go ahead and reset the database while you are at it, nothing drives players away like this community. Hate to say it, but its true and it has been demonstrated to be true, time and time again. Won't argue, peace.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Pierrette on January 13, 2016, 01:45:51 am

Seriously happy for the outcome - I think the RCD will be awesome as an open space for RP, honestly feel it's the best move - agree strongly that speaking to the current owners before announcing it here would have been extremely kind and thoughtful.  I cannot understand the reasoning behind the team's announcing it here without speaking to Damala and Waesad - it's like shooting yourself in the foot and trying to drive great players away.  Seriously cannot understand that.

EDIT:  It's like a compulsion to sabatoge yourself, that's how I feel about the decision - there are so many good GMs and devs, how could you lay it out this way and imagine that the old good players who have tried to make it work would not be driven away?  Sabotaging a great game, pure sabotage.  People like the hospital staff and the ex-RCD staff make us worthwhile, why eff that up in this way?  Same for other great RPers who were driven away with heavy-handedness.  It's like they have to eff up what could be great.  Anyone of us still playing, all the 40 alts, please take note of this for IRL - don't sabotage yourselves, play all out, let yourselves be great.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Illysia on January 13, 2016, 04:57:40 am

Sorry to hear about the contention here, but if I may make a suggestion... maybe it should just be shut for a little while and another space opened up to pick up the slack during that time, if possible. From what I've read, it sounds almost exactly like the contention from as far back as when Lhaa and Aiwendil were running it. That's rather amazing when you consider that neither the staff nor the GMs are the same. Some might not have even been playing back then.

History seems to repeat itself there. Maybe it's something about the place. Maybe a little time for it to lie fallow before opening it back up to everyone will do it and everyone that's been connected with it some good. If it's anything like the last times this issue came up, both previous staff and GMs alike could use some time to recuperate.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Rigwyn on January 13, 2016, 05:47:34 am

Eh.. I think it's a different situation. The problem ( from my limited perspective ) is that it was kept under lock and key ( as originally set up ). The problem with that is that it becomes someone's full time job to keep it open.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Illysia on January 13, 2016, 06:23:53 am

True, but sometimes a situation can develop an atmosphere about it that gets inherited right down the line despite small changes in the scenario. No guarantee that a small break will help, but it's something to consider.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Raikana on January 13, 2016, 07:50:04 am

The worst part is that there is still no answer from GMs about their rudeness in closing the Den without telling it to the current holders... but yes, this game has potential to be great but sometimes the staff thinks they can disrespect people, and that will be the death of the game (completely agree with Miadon in that!). Please Iridia, even if I know your intentions are the best, come here and apologize: that would be the best move.

That said, i'm sure this is for the good... let's wait and see!

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: iridia on January 13, 2016, 07:58:07 pm

Let me start by saying this: It is never easy to make a decision like this and we are very much aware that for some of you it is hard to accept. However, again I'd like to express that we do this with the best interest for the community in mind.

We have spoken with the players that were running the RCD in the last 18 months (or longer). We asked them to make a plan for the RCD, to revive activity because there seemed to be quite some players in the community who wanted to see that happen.
When I asked for this plan I was also clear about consequences for the RCD if they could not live up to what is expected of usage of public guildhouses. (See info about OSP or GH as a reward.) We are simply drawing one line for all the initiatives and public houses we have in game and after the issues we witnessed with the RCD since then and the lack of a plan 3 months later..
We see no other option than to close the RCD.

We are open to new plans and ideas for the RCD, for the time being the RCD will be in the hands of the GM team.

At those who have ideas for future use of the RCD: you can apply for a public house at any time. However, IC'ly your idea needs to fit the location and be approvable by the Octarchy, the RCD as your location is not guaranteed.


This Friday (Jan 15th) at 22:00 UTC until 23:00 UTC we are available at the RCD for players that want to pick up the items they left at the RCD.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Pierrette on January 13, 2016, 08:13:03 pm

Quote from: iridia on January 13, 2016, 07:58:07 pm

We have spoken with the players that were running the RCD in the last 18 months (or longer).
/snip
We see no other option than to close the RCD.

This makes sense to me and also is (obviously) your/the team's call (I strongly agree with the decision fwiw).

Just one line to current managers, a PM or something, to say "this is how it's going to go down," is the respectful collaborative thing to do.  Instead of having most of the (forum) community being upset/confused with the PS team for the treatment of people we respect, and the current RCD management totally discouraged about Planeshift...

You would have management pissed because not agreeing with the decision, but everything feeling on the up and up.

Simply a matter of giving a one line heads up before posting in the forum about it.  That would have me completely shut up here, except to be glad for the decision.  And glad that the hospital somehow proved proof of concept and seemed to help the team come to this decision.

Illy, I think your idea is funny, kind of like it (even though I don't want that to happen) - but there is something strange about how we all interact over that place, it's not to do with the place though, it's something about the structure of the team and the structure of the player base (which cracks me up because of the BRILLIANT suggestion to have the RCD be a pvp zone - ah those old darlings Lhaa and Aiw are rolling over in the death realm now  :devil: - but it's clear the player base is very different atm)...

Ciao people...

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Illysia on January 14, 2016, 01:43:22 am

Quote from: Pierrette on January 13, 2016, 08:13:03 pm

Illy, I think your idea is funny, kind of like it (even though I don't want that to happen) - but there is something strange about how we all interact over that place, it's not to do with the place though, it's something about the structure of the team and the structure of the player base (which cracks me up because of the BRILLIANT suggestion to have the RCD be a pvp zone - ah those old darlings Lhaa and Aiw are rolling over in the death realm now  :devil: - but it's clear the player base is very different atm)...

Well, the nature of the player base and the GM team actually changed pretty significantly from back then, as far as I saw when last in game, and yet the issues over that place are pretty much the same. However, one could argue that it's the nature of RP. However, one thing I am certain is that both GMs and previous staff are probably pretty worn out regarding this and could probably use some support and a kind word by now. :flowers: I'm certain that much won't change.

I'm sure both sides worked hard to make this work, but, in the end, there is only so much a handful of people can do. I'm sure people appreciated the efforts that went into the place both seen and unseen.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Volki on January 14, 2016, 02:23:19 am

Quote from: iridia on January 10, 2016, 02:22:13 pm

Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch

Someone's going to be very surprised by the items of questionable legality hidden in the cellar.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Vonor on January 14, 2016, 03:26:36 am

What do we have here?

We have two different versions.

One: Iridia speaking on behalf of the GM Team - not necessarily meaning she herself did it or decided it or said it.
So the GM Team states that there have been attempts to contact the RCD management. GM Team also states they have spoken to them and requested a change.

On the other hand we have Damola and cdmoreland saying they have not known anything about this.

Iridia stated in her first Post that the GM Team asked the RCD staff for a plan and that this plan was not provided.
Damola states that *she* has not been informed OOC'ly.

This is quite simple to me. All Damola has to do is to get in contact with the GM Team either on IRC, the Forums or ingame via petition and clear this directly with the team.
There is absolutely no reason for anyone else who is not involved with the RCD Management to point fingers at the GM Team / Devs about how they treat the community. It's always easy to point fingers and blame others, but fact is, we (everyone not directly invovled) don't know what was communicated between whom.

Now to the seizure. I can't say much about the activity of the RCD, cuz I am only back about 2 months now. But fact is, the RCD was given to a certain group to create RP for the community. Or IC'ly it was lent to them by the Octarchy for the benefit of the Citizens of Hydlaa.
If that has not worked out due to the managers not being around enough and only open on special ocassions instead of having open 24/7 so that players could use for RP anytime they want, the Agreements (both IC and OOC) have failed and the Octarchy just takes it back.

It's not like the RCD will be lost. The way I understand it is, that the GMs plan on making that Guild House available to the public for usage, so everyone - including the RCD team - can use it for RP and hosting events.
Iridia also mentioned it's possible for anyone to apply for the OSP and I don't see her mention that the RCD is excluded from applying again.

So if there is an interest by the RCD team to continue the RCD simply make a plan and provide it to the Octarchy. Find people interested in joining the staff of the RCD so it is more active. And if you don't win the OSP again there are other places that can be used for events the OSP team wants to run.

Look at Iridia's signature: Event idea? IRC #ps-event
This channel was formed by a former Settings Developer many years ago for the crystal eclipse event series for everyone from the PS Staff to participate (including settings devs, engine devs, prospects and GMs and others). That the channel is now open for players to join to present their event idea to get support by the GMs is a good sign. Unfortunately I have not yet seen anyone join in there other than GMs.

So, the possibilities to host events are available. Both, with and without GM support. Use the possibilities instead of complaining how badly the community is treated!

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Sulaika on January 14, 2016, 12:19:04 pm

Honestly I find it frustrating how it went either. I have been busy over christmas and now too, due to establish my living room and to extend the flat. So it seems it was a good time to just lock it down, when the staff is not around daily. There has been more than one event last year, but anyway. What I dont get is that we have made a plan and we never got an answer of the GM-Team so far I know. And its interesting that the renting the Den for events is taken up, which we have done too. I would have spared my precious time thinking how to make the Den a better place for my real life before christmas, if I known it would be closed down. And I am always open for IC-PMs here too. So whomever wanted a key for an event, if I get contacted here via pm I can hand the key over. I feel bad for contacting Dannae to make the flyer for renting the Den, as I stole her precious real life time with that too. Excuse me for my frustrating sound of those words, but it is like it is.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: gonger on January 14, 2016, 05:56:09 pm

Another most interesting line:

Quote from: Sulaika on January 14, 2016, 12:19:04 pm

What I dont get is that we have made a plan and we never got an answer of the GM-Team so far I know.

Looks like we are going to have a big discussion at the next Dev Meeting. Or maybe even before? I offer my help in organizing and moderating this.
And I need to add one more thing: Maybe (just maybe!) the RCD made some mistakes in not running things as it was asked, but one thing is sure:
They all had put their heart in this place, and this should never be forgotten, and always be respected.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: cdmoreland on January 14, 2016, 06:17:56 pm

I don't know that anything will make a difference at this point, Gonger. I (Waesed) was at the Devs meeting the day they took the RCD and was not told of anything. We had at least 3 events in the planning stage. We have been more dedicated to the RCD than the Devs have been for showing up at their own meetings.

The damage is done and it's time to move on.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Donari Tyndale on January 15, 2016, 08:42:07 am

The problem wasn't the management of the RCD, I think Damola did a fine job, but there is only so much activity that can be generated with 20 players online. Taking one of the last player owned venues out of their hands helps reduce the players interested in the game even further, great thinking, GM team!
If you really want an active RCD, you should instead focus on making the game more interesting to play (Not mechanics wise, RP wise), instead of taking any incentive away to play.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: jemima on January 15, 2016, 01:06:17 pm

My thoughts about the things going on regarding the RCD.

Usually I keep my mouth shut. You hardly ever hear me on any forum.
Since I was involved in the proces of taking over the RCD I have to stand up and talk.
At the time Ad Libertatum and the Family took over the RCD I was the guildleader of the Family. That's how I did get involved.

Around april 2014 the RCD had not opened for a long time. Dannae did not have time to open. She was willing to hand over the keys to a new owner.
Weased from Ad Libertatum did want to take over the RCD. The Family also was interested.
We did have a talk with Dannae. While making plans for the future of the RCD both sides did agreed that we - Both Ad Libertatum and the Family - would run the RCD together.

I did have long talks with a GM. I wanted to be sure that we would not get harsh interventions by GMs. When he did assure me that that never was going to happen. I did agree to the whole plan.

A donation of 4 million tria was made to DOX and keys were exhanged.

So... Let me make very clear... NO GM was involved at this stage. They came in later... Much later... with shattering force...

Both Weased and Damola would run the place.
They soon did find out how hard it is to get enough players together to have the Den open as often as they wanted.
But still they managed to open the Den. Sulaika soon joined the staff.

In 2014 the Family was - at least for planshift standards - a big guild. Both Ad libertatum and the Family were big enough to open the den frequently. Over time many active players disappeared. Now the biggest guild is only able to get 5 active players online on a good day. The same goes for the Family. We are a small guild now.
This means it's hard to open the Den.

When Damola opened the den... I was there. I always was there...
Even with 20-25 players online we managed only to get 3 to 5 players inside.
Damola behind the counter and two to three Family-members talkling in front of the counter. If we were very lucky... one or two other players did show up.
With less than twenty players online... You could get two or three players in if you were very lucky. I can remember many openings when Damola and I were waiting for other players to show up. They never came.

I know everyone wants to enter the building in their own terms and in their own time... but that's not how the Den was run. And to be true... It could not be run that way. All drinks and food where there for everyone to take.
Only with a person behind the counter we were able to prevent the place to be robbed empty.

And now.. The den is closed...

How to go from here?
I don't know. Actually... I don't even care.
Since the GM-staff did slam the door behind them there is no way back. We only can go further on the chosen path.
I don't know where this path wil lead to... but I won't be suprised if the den will stay closed. If we are lucky it wil be transformed in a place as thrilling as Guildlaw. At least that would mean that we can enter the building.

We can only hope the players who screamed the loudest to free the Den will step in and make things work.
If they do. I will even look where and how to support them.
But still... talking is easy. Doing something is not. It means that you can't sit back and wait. So I think it's up to the GMs to handle things.

I did speak a lot with (former) GMs and devs. All did tell me the same story over and over again. A few even let me read part of the logs they still did have. 
The rudeness displayed in these logs always did amaze me. Every time you think things can't get worse someone managed to find a way to top things. This is how we lost many good and active members of the GM and dev teams.

It seems that this way of behaving is now displayed to players willing to help out. The blunt way the GM-staff did behave to the staff of the Den will never be forgotten.
In stad of feeling sorry for themselves that they did have handle. The GM-team owns de Den-team a huge apology for the rude way they did handle things. I'm sure this will affect the involvement of these players and their guild as a whole for a long time.
Judging from the reactions in guild-chat the family-council will prevent any future guild-involvement with any long-term activities. Maby even any activities at all.

I feel cub enough to apologize to Damola, Weased and Sulaika for screwing up.
After contacting a GM I really did think we would't be harmed by the GM-staff. I really did think we could pull this off.
That both guilds could do something for Planeshift with minimal interference of the GM-team.
I was proven wrong. I'm sorry that my poor judgement did put you all in harms way.

I know this ship is slowly sinking. I think most players know. You won't safe the ship by kicking part of the crew. You need to give them tools to save the ship.
Now we have tools nor crew.

Jemima

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: cdmoreland on January 16, 2016, 06:11:33 pm

I went in when Iridia opened the Den and got the armor I left that was to be given away. Iridia never said anything though I greeted her and then told her I'd got my stuff. Maybe she was afk.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Roled on January 17, 2016, 01:25:25 am

Another abuse of self appointed power...

The management has killed their own game.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: MishkaL1138 on January 17, 2016, 07:41:37 am

Over the curse of the years I haven't agreed with the Game Masters and the Development Team in many of the choices they've made, even going so far as to actively try and be a pain in the ass for them - with hilarious consequences. I have also made many a plea and pulled on all the strings I knew could pull to try and get a guildhouse when the market for them was dead, and tried to make it so that I'd get a reward for (egotistically) thinking myself a great roleplayer and then use it to build a thriving roleplay metacommunity inside the slowly dying playerbase.

Boy, was I wrong.

You know, my choice to stay out of PlaneShift was mostly to flee the drama that developed from whiny players and misunderstood actions. Since I have found out it's nigh to impossible for me to flee it I've decided to come on in and chip in with my two tria cents:

Quote from: Roled on January 17, 2016, 01:25:25 am

Another abuse of self appointed power...
The management has killed their own game.

As usual, Roled, I can't help but feel you're mongering hate towards the administration without actually stopping and thinking about the underlying motives that have driven them to carry out these actions. When you're on fire you just don't run around blaming whoever caused the fire: you stop, drop, and roll to try and fix the problem. What I'm suggesting is that, instead of wailing and ripping at our head and chest hairs, we thinking about the road that has led to this (I'll admit it, unfortunate) turn of events.

Quote from: jemima on January 15, 2016, 01:06:17 pm

[A whole message I won't quote completely, but you can read if you click the link above. I highly recommend you do, though.]
~ by Jemi

This right here is where it went wrong. I was there when AdLib started. It was a great idea - no really, it was! Antisystem radicals against the otherwise oppressive government. I didn't agree to it ICly or OOCly - I just didn't like the idea that it was based off, but that's just, like, my opinion. Good. And they even had the manpower to go with it, and even manage the Den. But... you know, it needed more. Political discussions in the Den, providing asylum to prosecuted people, all that. After all, they were going to take over the RCD, weren't they? The thing is, we were expecting more RP, and we were let down.

The Family was originally a guild in ezpcUSA, the non-RP server. It is, to this day, a quasi-dead guild full of PLers that barely (if ever at all) roleplay, other than to drop shields on your toes, and not much more. Now, I'm making a generalization, but you can't really say I'm wrong when you think about it. As to playerbase dwindling...

Quote from: Donari Tyndale on January 15, 2016, 08:42:07 am

The problem wasn't the management of the RCD, I think Damola did a fine job, but there is only so much activity that can be generated with 20 players online. Taking one of the last player owned venues out of their hands helps reduce the players interested in the game even further, great thinking, GM team!
If you really want an active RCD, you should instead focus on making the game more interesting to play (Not mechanics wise, RP wise), instead of taking any incentive away to play.

How about you open the Dark Empire guildhouse for all to enjoy? Or why didn't you step up and ask for am old management switcharoo? After all, it was just 4 millions - you could've asked around and get everyone to chip in, for the sake of keeping the RCD alive. I'm not blaming you personally, I'm just baffled you know about the playerbase becoming smaller and smaller overtime and not exactly taking blame for not being the change you want to see in PS. Because it's the players that make the playerbase smaller. Less players, smaller playerbase.

Oh. Right. Real Life. And other games. You see, PlaneShift has a LOT of good things that many people don't know they like, and many other bad things that can be overlooked but everyone, being the goddamn nitpickers they are, won't choose to ignore. PlaneShift is free. PlaneShift has player-driven fun. You can't rely on quests to give you the fun, you have to make your own fun. In a sense, it's going back to your childhood. The problem is when unimaginative people play this game: cybering, leveling, and whining is all it'll be reduced to.

I won't go into what is causing the playerbase to slowly fade away into nothingness. But, honestly? Why it all boiled down to this?

THE RULES (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=41147.msg462637#msg462637)

Behold! Take a look!

Quote from: Talad on January 05, 2013, 08:33:21 am

• 7 - Do you accept that any guildhouse given can be taken away at any point if it is found you are unhelpful to new players, combative with Game Masters, failing to role-play or not keeping sufficient server presence to merit the use of a guildhouse or for any other reason deemed appropriate by the Game Masters or any other development team? (Note - A guildhouse should be considered a privilege, and not a right.)

THIS. This right here. I emboldened it for you. What does this mean?

"You're not doing your job. We're taking your house away."

So, while we're acting all entitled, we've got to remember: no matter how much we claim and whimper, claims aren't facts. No matter how much you argue you've worked for your boss, if he thinks your rates have gone down, you're still getting fired. And when this is all done and said, repeat after me:

We could've done something.

But we didn't. Me included. Now let's bawl over spilled milk, and try to find another place to use for roleplay. Because, let's be honest, who isn't roleplaying about it in game?

Mishka out.

PS: Curse you all for making me log in to try and bash some sense into your thick heads.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Jilerel on January 17, 2016, 11:36:54 am

Quote from: MishkaL1138 on January 17, 2016, 07:41:37 am

Quote from: Donari Tyndale on January 15, 2016, 08:42:07 am

The problem wasn't the management of the RCD, I think Damola did a fine job, but there is only so much activity that can be generated with 20 players online. Taking one of the last player owned venues out of their hands helps reduce the players interested in the game even further, great thinking, GM team!
If you really want an active RCD, you should instead focus on making the game more interesting to play (Not mechanics wise, RP wise), instead of taking any incentive away to play.

How about you open the Dark Empire guildhouse for all to enjoy?

Coming soon™

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Illysia on January 17, 2016, 05:12:04 pm

Honestly Mishka, while I figure the game will never actually die, I don't think there is much any of the players in game can do to lift it up. I'm not saying the basic premise for your post is wrong, but I don't think being the change you want to see will be enough at this point. It just leads to burnout.

Making an RP community work requires not only the investment of the players leading the RP but also the players around them that participate it. But, from what it sounds like, there aren't enough players left around to have enough support in either group.

At this point, players might as well just try to have fun the best they can, and if they aren't having fun take a break. Burnout and animosity will do worse for the long term prospects than lower player count.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: verden on January 17, 2016, 09:38:31 pm

At this point, there is nothing that can be said that has not been said already. If the "solution" were a simple one, it would have happened already. An art overhaul -- as basically impossible as I know it is to do -- would get people coming back to check out the game. But the problem is really one of _reputation_ now. Not to mention that it is impossible to have a consensus on what the roleplay chimera really is, in a way that is meaningful to all people involved.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Illysia on January 17, 2016, 10:15:59 pm

I think reputation could be overcome with enough charm, but Planeshift's charm has always been it's RP community. There are games with "worse" graphics that have completely devoted fans. However, if the community is too small, it will be hard to develop the charm as no one can be everywhere at all times in the game.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Jilerel on January 18, 2016, 11:47:32 am

It's a feeling I always had.
The game itself doesn't work on its RP aspects. It's like if the RP was a mod of Planeshift.
I mean, almost everything in the game is not helping Roleplay in my opinion. Grinding, alt char/death system not really worked on RPly, economics...

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Illysia on January 18, 2016, 04:11:26 pm

I've seen RPers hang on in games with far less for RP than what PS offers. Verden is right, though I don't think it's the larger part of the problem. The game needs more goodwill, especially between players.

But, I think it is hard to get a central RPing core in this game that is able to hunt down and draw new players into it's circle. The world is too large, the players too few, not enough agreement on what to do, and after a while you don't want to have to teach everyone you try to RP with. Sometimes, you'd like to just be be able to enjoy the activity without instructing. But, without that core, I don't think the game will every really recover.

Also, there isn't much to RP from on a grand story scale. The world is too stagnant beyond maybe the GM events and the few events run by players. If you miss out on those, you may not have anything to work from. I had that trouble several times in the past. I couldn't say much about what my character was up to beyond business, there was little to talk about in Hydlaa beyond murders, and even with characters mine knew well you could only rehash old history so much.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Volki on January 18, 2016, 04:59:02 pm

Quote

Honestly Mishka, while I figure the game will never actually die, I don't think there is much any of the players in game can do to lift it up. I'm not saying the basic premise for your post is wrong, but I don't think being the change you want to see will be enough at this point. It just leads to burnout.

(http://i.imgur.com/ImtKLbP.jpg)



It's the players and the moderation.

For PS to survive, all kinds of roleplay need to be allowed. Where Mishka says there is no imagination, I see potential. Roleplay is an escape for people. They're going to cyber, they're going to level, and they're going to whine. These are natural human behaviors. Players need to be given the freedom to do what they want, and more people will play the game.

Moderation needs to be equal for every player, it needs to be held back until necessary, and players need to feel welcome to express themselves and roleplay whatever they want as long as they are reasonable and responsible. The GM team should be separated between those who can essentially be dungeon masters and those who can moderate the players.

The game needs less focus on hardcore grinding and more on roleplay. Back when PP and tria were necessary for training, we had an economy, and removing the importance of those two things in regard to training made it disappear. Not suggesting we go back to that, but it might be worthwhile to greatly reduce the amount of time it takes to max out a skill, or preferably make leveling negatively exponential so that grinding is only really useful up to a certain point.

I honestly think that constant grinding reduced the amount of roleplay. Then, when players no longer needed cash for buying levels from trainers, they no longer needed to interact with other players to sell goods at a reasonable price.

There are probably a myriad of reasons, but I believe it's these things which led to the disappearance of the player base. At this point it's up to the remaining players to rejuvenate the game. I'm currently working on my own real skills to hopefully build new assets for the game (when I have time, which is now, luckily).

Here's muh five-point plan to rejuvenate PS:

1) Give more freedom to players: less punishment for undesirable behavior, such as cybering (responsibly), leveling (as long as they're not egregiously OOC), whining, criticizing, and simply being offensive (which is NOT harassment, so get over it).

2) Use game mechanics to necessitate an in-game economy.

3) Do something about the GM team. People have been complaining about this for ages. A good moderator is not necessarily a good roleplayer. We need DMs to run events, not GMs.

4) Change the leveling system. Make it negatively exponential, which is reflective of reality and will prevent players from maxing skills in a way that won't annoy them.

5) Players need to contribute. Become part of the team, run events, use the forum, and, most importantly, roleplay.

#ElectVolki2016

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Jebow on January 18, 2016, 06:20:34 pm

Interesting. I had not considered the loss of need for PP to be the cause of the loss of the economy. But I had 100K+ PP and could generate PP faster than I could tria when I was having to buy a level.

So, here is my opinion, however worthless it might be, for what is wrong with PS:
1) No economy - Goods that might be interesting to have are dramatically expensive (ie 300q magical armor of some sort), making tria is easy when grinding making those items both (a) affordable and (b) unimportant when I can make my own or close to it - so why bother buying it from someone else(?).
2) Ridiculous amounts of time to level anything except stats, which just takes enough money and the right NPC - 0 to 400 in a few hours if you have the cash.
3) Quest trails are difficult to find - you might do one or two only to not be able to progress because you didn't find the start of the trail to begin with, NPCs aren't always that helpful at pointing you in the right direction in many (most?) cases.

Fixes:
1) (Disclaimer: I'm not an economist) Paying more for better quality is still a good idea, but maybe not dramatically more... perhaps the NPCs who sell things could sell better quality items for more as well... this doesn't keep me from buying from players, but (I think) could make the market a bit more competitive. As it is, buying anything from an NPC results in a 50q item, but what if I could buy a 50q short sword from one NPC, but a 150q short sword from a different one, but if I really want something 200q or better, I either have to make it myself or find a player merchant, at least then I have more of a choice of how much money to spend or with whom assuming my character doesn't make the item I wish to purchase.
2) no idea... have seen both ways, liked it better when I had to pay a trainer, but finding the trainer was also annoyingly difficult. Maybe a hybrid approach that doesn't allow me to progress as fast over time until I buy more training (ie like a certification or something kinda like the magic ways used to be or maybe still are with adepts, apprentices, etc). So a trainee sword maker can continue to train (aka grind) forever, but the Q for making swords will max out and the trainee won't get  any better until they see a trainer and level up to journeyman, which allows them to start making higher Q swords quickly but diminishing over time to a max, etc. Would possibly not fix the length of time to max out a skill, but might make it more reasonable to support an economy. Also worth considering if there are skills which conflict, so that improving one prevents improving another... just an idea - maybe not a good one.
3) (Disclaimer: I have noticed some improvement on this one already) but it might be nice if a particular NPC knew more about the NPCs (a) close to them and (b) who train similar/same skills. So if you wanted to learn music, but you talk to the wrong NPC who happens to know about music, they could point you to the right person to talk to, or if they don't train music but are "close" to someone who does, could point your to the NPC close by who could point you in the right direction.

More on topic to this thread though, I'm saddened that the GMs took the approach they did, I'm saddened that we perhaps lost some people I enjoyed to RP with over how this was handled. However, even though I was only in the RCD once in a while (usually due to timezones) I don't think there needs to be such a thing as specific venues where RP takes place. Be IC and talk to people as you go by them... walk more often than run, after all you don't go dashing about the mall to buy things IRL, right? (or maybe you do...;-) yes it will take longer to get places, but you'll miss fewer opportunities to engage other players (however few there are) with little bits of casual conversation and possible adventures.

I will miss the RCD as it was, we'll see what the future holds - Thanks to Dannae, Damola, and others (whose name I unfortunately don't know) who ran the Den for a while, I, for one, appreciated the effort you put into making it a cool place to hang out.

Best,
Jebow

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Illysia on January 18, 2016, 06:34:55 pm

Quote from: Volki on January 18, 2016, 04:59:02 pm

(http://i.imgur.com/ImtKLbP.jpg)

Stop what?

Quote from: Volki on January 18, 2016, 04:59:02 pm

Here's muh five-point plan to rejuvenate PS:

1) Give more freedom to players: less punishment for undesirable behavior, such as cybering (responsibly), leveling (as long as they're not egregiously OOC), whining, criticizing, and simply being offensive (which is NOT harassment, so get over it).

2) Use game mechanics to necessitate an in-game economy.

3) Do something about the GM team. People have been complaining about this for ages. A good moderator is not necessarily a good roleplayer. We need DMs to run events, not GMs.

4) Change the leveling system. Make it negatively exponential, which is reflective of reality and will prevent players from maxing skills in a way that won't annoy them.

5) Players need to contribute. Become part of the team, run events, use the forum, and, most importantly, roleplay.

#ElectVolki2016

Some of these may work, I can't say. But I think the problem is that players get into a rut of how they "should" do things, and if they have to do differently they just don't. I remember clearly how much more I RPed outside of PS, partially because things hadn't stagnated so bad in those places yet. I even picked up new skills. It's probably not a lack of freedom but a lack of moving outside of a comfort zone.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Rigwyn on January 18, 2016, 07:08:47 pm

If you are interested in role playing only, then a lot of this crap doesn't really matter. You just need to be able to get on and RP with people with as little interference as possible. Role players make their own world and their own story, the rest is just icing on the cake at best. If you make sure not to entangle yourselves with gms, then you are likely to have a good experience. The moment you let them get involved, your game/story is in jeopardy. This is why I say shy away from guild houses, gm tricks and props that you cannot set up yourself.

If you care about the gaming aspect and the actual game economy, then there are a few huge things that need to be addressed:

1. The economy is still unbalanced. I would seriously consider getting someone who has majored in economics to tackle this. I think the costs and benefits are still a little out of whack. If you play WoW ( and I mention this because they have this nailed down very well ) you see that the cost of a weapon at any level is proportionate.

You don't need to farm shit for a week to be able to afford a high quality weapon, rather you can simply use stuff looted from level appropriate creatures. Also, stuff that is over powered is not usable, so intermediate stuff retains it's value. I hate to say it, but when a noob can wield q300 weapons, the value of all other intermediate weapons plummet.

If there was some restriction to what quality of weapon a character could use, then the low and intermediates would be worth more and crafters who have not maxed their skill could make something off lower quality items. Similarly, the amount of work needed to make an item needs to be proportional to it's cost or value.


2. Quests are a pain to do and npcs are hard to find. This is by design I suppose, but it's more frustrating than rewarding. One of the nice things about WoW is that you can level your character fairly quickly by just doing the quests and killing the mobs that the quests suggest. Rather than farming one character all day and leveling every fifty or so kills, you get a small amount of experience for the kills, and a larger amount of experience for completion of the quest. Best of all, the mobs that the quest recommends are appropriate for the character at that point of development. The mini-map and dots of the heads of NPCs reduce a lot of the frustration with questing.

3. Actual gaming content is needed - dungeons, raids, and huge ass beasts that require collaboration to take down.

4. When things get old and played out, people are going to get bored move on. Can't do much about this.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Wocib on January 19, 2016, 10:55:18 am

Quote from: Rigwyn on January 18, 2016, 07:08:47 pm

/me waves ''Bye Bye Rigwyn, enjoy playing Wow"

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Cairn on January 19, 2016, 06:31:10 pm

A house divided against itself will fall :)

Whether that means we need to support the game more, or the game needs to support us more is completely up for grabs, though.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Damola on February 13, 2016, 01:41:24 pm

Just for your information:

I did have a healing talk with Bodier and Zunna some weeks ago during and after the dev q&a where Gonger brought up this topic.

While I still think that the "how GMs did this" wasn´t helpful, I received the message that  GMs didn´t intend to do this in any kind of disrespect for the work of the Red Crystal Den team, of my work, Waesed´s work, Sulaika´s work. Quite the contrary the intended to free us from any burden regarding the Den. ICly the Octarchy speaks a different language, but well that may just be the Octarchy.

That doesn´t make it easier for me to play Damola with all of this, but well… she may be well on her very own special way to healing. As people near Hydlaa yesterday were able to find out and for all the others, see my recent forum post in "In-Game Roleplay Events".

I still didn´t read through all of this thread although I received notice that there was quite some support for the position I stated.

I may read through it all at another time, but in the end I consider this chapter closed and prefer to focus on how I can enjoy continuing to play PlaneShift and how can this all heal again. I am not yet totally clear on an IC path for Damola. It depends partly on what the GM team will come up next for the Den.

In either case I enjoy the freedom to let Damola just do what she wants, free from any obligation.

I thank Bodier for bridging the way to invite that healing talk to happen. It helped a lot.

Thank you!

I see no need to revive this thread, so I am totally fine if this post receives no further comments.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: cdmoreland on January 17, 2017, 09:30:38 am

It's been a year since the RCD was closed and it is still unused. What was accomplished with eviction? Waesed has left the Dome and Ellis seldom does anything but grind magic once in a while. I just can't get excited about PS anymore.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Emaline on January 17, 2017, 10:17:47 am

http://207.244.96.64/PlaneShift/smf/index.php?topic=42801.msg481265#msg481265

I think we are just waiting on the Bards to tell us when they are fully ready for it to be open to the public.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: cdmoreland on January 19, 2017, 11:54:01 pm

I wonder when the KNM will open. That poor rogue has been standing there on guard for over a year.

I do wish the Bards the best in their endeavor. We often had music in the RCD, just no one to hear it...lol

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Mairon on January 20, 2017, 03:53:28 pm

What is the Kor Neka Mansa, by the way? I have seen the map at Kisatol`s, but nothing more except a short story from that guard rogue.
There was an event there not long ago too.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Dilihin on January 20, 2017, 09:55:21 pm

Quote from: Mairon on January 20, 2017, 03:53:28 pm

What is the Kor Neka Mansa, by the way? I have seen the map at Kisatol`s, but nothing more except a short story from that guard rogue.
There was an event there not long ago too.

Once upon a time, there was a gambling den named kor neka mansa. Then it git shut down by octarchy with help of few citizens.And there is supposed to be second opening of KNM. Im too tired to find the link or write, buttö there is a thread  or two about it, go read them.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: cdmoreland on January 20, 2017, 10:15:54 pm

It was known as Naughty Mothers for a while. I haven't been paying much attention to it.

I've just been leveling magic with Ellis, my character from EZPC. I brought him out of retirement to tend bar at the RCD but I never did max him out like Waesed. Waesed couldn't see over the counter at the RCD. ;D

It wasn't all from losing the RCD, I couldn't be effective in service to my guild, Ad Libertatem, without being the guild leader and they wouldn't hold an election to replace Jilare. It also seemed that I was having trouble with the GM team.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Dilihin on January 21, 2017, 07:58:17 am

for anyone intrested, here's the KNM Thread:

http://207.244.96.64/PlaneShift/smf/index.php?topic=41912.0
 

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Mairon on January 21, 2017, 08:42:56 am

Would be great if they reopened it. I`m tired of betting 100 tria max when playing with Darven.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Dilihin on January 21, 2017, 11:11:55 am

Quote from: Mairon on January 21, 2017, 08:42:56 am

Would be great if they reopened it. I`m tired of betting 100 tria max when playing with Darven.

Yes, also more rewarding /tria sink  ;D  The event was really good gm event tho, a good chance to those events that last only 2-3 hours.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Damola on February 12, 2017, 03:15:55 pm

Quote from: cdmoreland on January 17, 2017, 09:30:38 am

It's been a year since the RCD was closed and it is still unused. What was accomplished with eviction? Waesed has left the Dome and Ellis seldom does anything but grind magic once in a while. I just can't get excited about PS anymore.

Well some time ago I asked about it at Dev Q&A but I meanwhile gave up on it. Damola would easily have opened this places quite some times during that year, but well…

Title: a few of my thoughts on the hows, whys, and wheretofores
Post by: Can-ned Food on February 19, 2017, 07:32:28 am

[OOC]  I know little regarding the history of this place or the details which transpired.  All i have are a few comments.  Seeing people's responses to this brought to my mind the various executions of so–called ‘eminent domain’ which make a ruckus every now and again.  They bring to mind that nobody can well maintain their ownerships from the meddling of those with more affluence.  Those were not situations of delinquency, but rather:  “We have someone else who will make more money with your land, and so we are taking it from you and giving it to them.”  I mean, wasn't there a certain well–known person who told a parable or two about the dangers from that sort of thing?

[OOC]  Anyway, all that aside, there is something which it seems many of you are forgetting:  So the GMs treated you callously and uncompassionately?  Aren't those GMs playing the roles of government?  It would seem to me that they are performing their roles well, whether deliberately, decidedly, or otherwise.

Title: Re: a few of my thoughts on the hows, whys, and wheretofores
Post by: cdmoreland on February 19, 2017, 01:12:18 pm

Quote from: Can-ned Food on February 19, 2017, 07:32:28 am

[OOC]  Anyway, all that aside, there is something which it seems many of you are forgetting:  So the GMs treated you callously and uncompassionately?  Aren't those GMs playing the roles of government?  It would seem to me that they are performing their roles well, whether deliberately, decidedly, or otherwise.

If their roll was to p o the 2 biggest guilds in the game and lower the player base, they did well.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Dilihin on February 19, 2017, 02:38:33 pm

It's been more than a year and people are still at this?  ::)

Anyway i agree with Can-ned Food on this one, GM team is roleplaying the goverment as well, and in my opinion, they did well on this one when remembering that goverment isn't supposed to fullfill every wish of citizens.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Damola on March 04, 2017, 04:02:38 pm

I have the feeling that the YANCA event on 11th of March will finally be the reopening of the house that was the Den more than one year ago. I brought up the house still being locked down at the last Dev Q&A and maybe finally we see a reopening of it.

Although from the event page itself it seems like YANCA would be located in Ojaveda. So I am a bit confused.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Emaline on March 04, 2017, 05:11:37 pm

Not sure why you get the feeling it's for Ojaveda. You are correct YANCA will reopen, re-branded and renamed in the place that used to be known as the RCD. 

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Tidebringer on March 04, 2017, 09:22:19 pm

Quote from: Emaline on March 04, 2017, 05:11:37 pm

Not sure why you get the feeling it's for Ojaveda. You are correct YANCA will reopen, re-branded and renamed in the place that used to be known as the RCD. 

That confusion would be caused by the... interesting choice of screenshot for the YANCA opening event's image in the calendar. ;D

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Shatterkiss on March 05, 2017, 02:36:51 am

I'd swear that's a screenshot for a guildhouse auction.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Aeghiss on March 05, 2017, 02:57:55 am

You actually can't trust the image shown on the calendar... It's not the first time an off-topic image from a previous event appears on the page for some reason.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Emaline on March 05, 2017, 09:49:05 am

/me sighs

 :oops: I told Sorka to change that....

I see the confusion now. I thought it was something I said in my post.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Sarko on March 06, 2017, 01:28:55 pm

Did you ?  ;D  :innocent:

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Emaline on March 06, 2017, 01:45:22 pm

Quote from: Sarko on March 06, 2017, 01:28:55 pm

Did you ?  ;D  :innocent:

I swear I did....probably one of the reasons you kept calling me boss, cause I was being bossy...I just checked my IRC and forum logs however and I can't find it to prove it... so I must have told you in game! But I know I did! But more importantly it still looks like the it's the pic for the last guild house auction :P

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Damola on March 12, 2017, 04:19:33 pm

[A dialog with Kaerli which shows Damola´s IC reaction to the reopening of the house that once was the Den]

One day after the opening, as Damola returned from a family visit in the lower realms:

Kaerli smiles and waves "Hey there Damola"

Damola mutters silently "So… that is now, what once was the Den."
Damola watches the newly decorated entrance and then glances over to the billboard

Kaerli nods "Aye. I actually did a magic act for the opening"

Damola then looks to Kaerli then "I wasn´t able to attend yesterday, but maybe it was better this way. Too many memories."
Damola sighs and then moves to the billboard.
Damola says: Hmm, okay the opening invitation.
Damola sighs again "It might be a shock for me, but I gonna look inside."
Damola breathes deeply and then opens the door, stepping through the entrance.
Damola looks around.
Damola enters the stage and then looks into the room "Well the stage is definitely bigger, but at the same time this is not a den anymore."
Damola looks to Kaerli "What do you think of it?"

Kaerli says: Aye, it's definitely more performance-hall and less tavern...

Damola says: Well… to me it feels…
Damola shrugs and goes up the stairs on the other side
Damola returns to Kaerli her eyes a bit wet "I don´t even feel anything."

Kaerli says: Just...too different?

Damola says: Is that it?
Damola says: Is that what the Octarchy was able to come up with in such a long time?

Kaerli nods "It seems so..."

Damola shrugs again "I hope at least that citizens of Yliakum will bring life into this. It feels… like being build as being planned, it doesn´t feel organic to me."

Kaerli says: I hope so as well

Damola couldn´t hide the disappointment in her face, but she asks "So you did a performance at the opening?"

Kaerli nods "Aye."
Kaerli says: A magic act, using Brown Way
Kaerli says: It drew a fair bit of praise, but did wind up making a few folks nervous

Damola smiles "Well some people may be cautious regarding magic, probably for good reasons"

Kaerli nods "I probably should have asked beforehand, yes..."

Damola giggles "Well I think I wouldn´t mind, unless you would let me fly around the area without my permission or so."

Kaerli laughs "I doubt you would"

Damola ponders "Well, its all so empty in here at the moment… so right now I see no point in staying here. I´d rather go to another place now."

Kaerli says: Kada's work for you?

Damola says: I bet it would.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Damola on March 19, 2017, 04:36:38 pm

[A little note here: That was Damola´s first IC reaction. As a player I am happy the house is open again.]

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: cdmoreland on August 28, 2019, 07:37:51 pm

How did this work out for everyone? Waesed is back! :innocent:

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: Damola on September 22, 2019, 03:53:30 pm

Well, the YANCA is open. I believe there have been some events, but not all that many.

Damola did not engage with it so far. So other may be able to fill in what happened there so far.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: cdmoreland on September 23, 2019, 06:55:01 pm

I know that it's all "water under the bridge" now. No one is left to even hold an event of any scale.

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: novacadian on September 24, 2019, 05:39:50 pm

Quote from: cdmoreland on August 28, 2019, 07:37:51 pm

How did this work out for everyone? Waesed is back! :innocent:

Welcome back!

Title: Re: [GM] Seizure of the Red Crystal Den by order of the Octarch
Post by: cdmoreland on September 24, 2019, 05:43:34 pm

Thanks! :)