Theiving other players = bad

[Xordan]

I found a tiny huge glitch in that one....  
Nobody\'ll be able to reach the higher lvl\'s of pickpocketing, as all the low lvl pickpockets\'ll keep on getting caught. Nobody\'ll ever be able to nick summin.

[sashok]

that\'s the whole point.  The harder it is to nick something, the less experienced theives there will be.  U suggest that everyone would become great theives in no time and go around stealing everything .  I think it should be very hard to nick at the beginning, and be at the same time very dangerous for the theif, because when the best of the best reach high levels of theivery there will only be a few of them.

[Xordan]

Maybe, but u should have a lesser time limit, or maybe the player being robbed should have less a warning. Otherwise nobody\'ll be able to reach a high lvl, as they\'ll keep getting caught.
Nice idea, but it needs tweaking.

[lostprophet]

I\'m not sure if we should penalise players for not being glued to the screen all the time. It\'s a nice idea for players to be able to figure out what\'s going on and choose to act on it, but what if a player has to leave the computer and comes back to find their character with no clothes, weapons or money?

[sashok]

ok, not a problem, there should be afk position, where player types afk and he sits down and can\'t be harmed. no regeneration, no fighting, unit just freezes.  
I mean it\'s a game, let\'s make it dangerous and interesting.
And, there won\'t be players around you everywhere and not everyone will be a thief.  But if you start to get robbed there\'s a good chance the theif is a noob and you can kill him and take his money.
I think it\'s fair.

p.s. I think that people will start to cheat the system this way.  After all you can rob your friend as many times as you want and return the items, for the purpose of powering up stealing ability.  So I believe, this has to be thought out more.  Maybe upgrading stealing ability is not a good idea, maybe it should just be skill of a player.  knowing what you are doing, there should be a small, but complicated process to steal something.  This process would take a newb 30 seconds, while it could take an experienced player with shortcuts and who\'s serious about theivery, only 10 seconds.  

But like I said, there\'s shouldn\'t be any stealth, where a robber can nick your stuff without you knowing.  That would cause grief.

[Abemore]

My reactions to the sashok20 thieving system:

• AFK should only stop the initiation of thieving and pvp... nothing else.  And it will not stop what already has started.
• you are attempting to create a community of hulking Kran thieves, because your thief acts like a tank while stealing.  not an ideal scenario by anyone\'s standards.
• I kinda like the vague idea of solving a puzzle to steal, making it a player based skill, but I think it needs to get more specific.
• I agree nicking without the \"mark\" knowing is unacceptable.  That is why I suggested an icon (of varying intensities) to alert the mark in my earlier post.
• and I think killing is probably a fitting punishment for a thief, but only IF you catch him/her, and no looting the corpse.

I like what you mentioned about players raising their thieving skill by safely stealing from a friend.  It\'s a good point.  However, if I recall correctly, this is not how our skill based system will work.  In our system, you are given a certain number of \"skill points\" as you gain experience that you can use however you want in whatever skill category you want.  So you can kill 1000 monsters and only your thieving skill would increase if thats what you wanted.

[paxx]

?Take this as Paxx the player and not Paxx the DEV?
There is another possible solution?

Instead of ?thieves, muggers, pickpockets? stealing real items they would steal a generic item type, ?thieving loot? this is then transferred for money or exp at a ?fence? of some type.

If pick pocketing a PC, the thief becomes vulnerable to being caught by the player?if he, she is?one hit knocks the thief out, and or (victims choice) taken to the jail or some thing like that?.where the thief is given remedial tasks to do until they ?pay their penance? for guild members, this might include?working in the guild garden or some stupid thing like that.

My point with this is that thieves have fun and a challenge, players want to catch them, but there are little ill effects to the victims.

In the case of NPCs depending on type?it might be like an attack or like the PC. But this would allow us to have thieves enter houses and other odd things.

To add more incentive on the ?penalizing the thief? the victim might get an ?item was stolen, will be available again in X minutes? this way we can also have NPC thieves :-)

And only items in inventory are susceptible.

Anyway that is an idea?mull it over, think about it, spew about it, and we might be able to flesh out some stuff.

I am probably the biggest thief fan in the Dev team, and we need concepts that we can sell, not just what thieves would want.

[Abemore]

If thieves stole generic \"thieving loot\" items, then there would be no reason to try to catch them.  It could all be done with statistical probabilities and would only have roleplay implications.  The victim (who wouldn\'t really be a victim because he/she wouldn\'t be losing anything) would only call for a guard if their character was morally against thieving.  Otherwise, why bother?

I agree 100% with...

Paxx-
My point with this is that thieves have fun and a challenge, players want to catch them, but there are little ill effects to the victims.

...but I think a very small percentage of the victims money or an insignificant item should be at risk in order to motivate the victim to catch the thief.  Motivation is key.  My suggestion of the \"you-are-being-pickpocketed\" icon that you have to click to catch the thief is still my favorite system.

Isn\'t it interesting how most people like their own ideas over others\'?

Frankly, I don\'t see the problem with thieving anymore.  We have enough raw ideas here to make wonderful system.  Unless... there\'s something I\'m missing... paxx?

[sashok]

paxx your idea totaly kills the motivation to be a theif.
What if a theif is drawn to steal by some knowledge that a person has an item the thief desires.  Of course, it wouldn\'t be easy, if you read what I proposed.
or what if it\'s a spy mission? and a theif works for a guild to retrieve an item from player.  

as I said, no equipped item could be stolen, even if the theif manages to get thru the process(about the process, well I have no idea yet ).  

As for Krans...  well, maybe stealing ability should be their worst skill possible .  after all, a huge rock is trying to pick pocket you sounds ridiculous

[paxx]

Originally posted by Abemore
If thieves stole generic \"thieving loot\" items, then there would be no reason to try to catch them.  It could all be done with statistical probabilities and would only have roleplay implications.  The victim (who wouldn\'t really be a victim because he/she wouldn\'t be losing anything) would only call for a guard if their character was morally against thieving.  Otherwise, why bother?

the key is having it so there is some penalty for the victim?like not having access to a random item for some amount of time (to simulate it?s being stolen and gone). This can be money, an item short of a weapon strapped on, or armor strapped on, but could be a hat, or rings?bracelet.

I have no problem with the icon coming up for the (you are being robbed) but I would want it to be some opposed skill roll.

At the same time thieves might choose different pick pocket/ stealing options, grab and snatch?shadow and evaluate?and then take, or in a house, appraise and take?.all these things then give different payoffs from the fence, faction hits are taken as deemed?.

If the victim becomes aware of any of the actions?(icon popping up)  he can then attack normally on the thief, a hit will cause the thief to be KOed, but it must be a hit?and then the victim can have a choice of penalties. If there is a reward for the thief?in some cases there may be, then the victim would get it from the local authorities.  

Anyway that is my thinking at the moment?Ideas still more then welcome.

As far as it being pretty good, I think it is, but it is not my choice :-)

It is something I?d have to propose and get people to take on. With no major veto?s. So the better the idea, the better the possibility it gets through.

[sashok]

some of the things you proposed sound good, would work well. specially the one where the victim(if he beats the theif to 1hp) gets to choose what to do with him.  maybe to let him live, but to take his loot or kill him, but can\'t take theifs loot or spare the poor bastard.

but that generic item really disapointed me for a sec there paxx

[paxx]

Sashok20
I read your idea, and I don?t find it all that wonderful, Abemore is right in that we all like our own ideas. The main difference here is that the thief uses the character skill (stealth included) to steal the item. The item can be anything?random or not so random, but it is not something specific to gameplay, it is specific to the thief as a character. He might have a quest to steal the ?ruby of the lost duke? and we might have an NPC with it?another player given a quest to transport it, or a player in the area has it ?as far as the quest is concerned? but in reality never even heard of it?the server simply picks a player with the right parameters?if the player loggs, thief reports back and is told?he passed it on to another PC/NPC.

For the thief the only real difference is that he is not stealing from the player but from an NPC, that might be human, with a humans AI and a humans motivations.

This is the same for spying and any number of things, grief is avoided, there is gain to penalty, and uses for thieving skills can be much more then this?but this is the classic urban thief startup.

You should not be trying to pick the pocket of the War hardened Hero of Legends, hell skewer you for breakfast and not break a sweat.

But you might burglarize his home :-)

But also in games like these, players don?t have items that are prized stuff. They have only the things needed to play the game better, with this we can expand characters a bit more?.in the house, the baker might have some trophies or gems or statues, or paintings?when in reality the player only uses the house to keep spare equipment and supplies that the baker got cheap.

We are blemishing reality of the game to fit the needs of pickpockets and thieves, while not making others miserable.

[sashok]

I just thought all that stuff you proposed about the different styles of stealing are all show off.  it\'s like the idea or the theory of stealing, but not the action.  If you saw the movie \"the last castle\" you would know what I mean. I had enough of EQ to understand that robbing npc is very unprofitable/dangerous/ but not exciting.  It\'s all buncha AI to me.

[Abemore]

This is all theory right now sashok, even the system you posted is theory.  That\'s how things are in the pre-implementation stage of development.

Paxx- I have no problem with the icon coming up for the (you are being robbed) but I would want it to be some opposed skill roll.

That\'s fine, someone mentioned an awareness skill to be used to detect thieves.  Not a bad idea to help determine the opacity or obviousness of the \"you-are-being-robbed\" icon.

On the Idea of stealing a \"copy\" of an item, a serious flaw exists.  The ability to copy items would be exploited immediately.  Two people could even steal one item back and forth generating an undetermined amount of copies.  In other words, I like my idea better

[Harwen]

I think the theives getting to choose the items is horrible, and that you may want to check up those people online when that system gets implemented. Besides, I don\'t want to have to go through the game and be watching my back 24/7 it might make the game less fun when elder players steal all of the newbs money, (Hey, are you new? Yes? ::Snatches:: /buddy NameOfSucker ) I think that it is a dangerous skill to begin with, I\'m sure the devs are working hard on that one But being able to steal should only consist of money, and then a percentage of that would be better, as rich people would me more favorable to steal from than a poor person...Also, crystals would be impossible to steal (would you really accept that? your only diamond? or your hoard of 40 diamonds that took you 5 months to excavate from an island city?) So, you should be able to buy a crystal, and sell it for an equal price, thereby protecting your money in some way,...(crystals should be expensive)...Ever played Lufia? That seemed nice, though shops wouldn\'t really accept crystals as payment....hopefully the currency should be in denominations (like the crystals) so let\'s say 30 trias equals three so and so\'s which equals 3 emeralds and such...Stealing equiped items is just silly...no one steals a sword out of my hand...I would prefer though that stealing was implemented in battle,...or at least would be activley stoppable...sadly,...that\'s where the cheating might start...

Another thing about the houses, is making them completeley lagslip-proof...you don\'t need to pick the lock if you can walk through the door...Again, give it time.