Author Topic: From one Beta Tester to the Dev Team & the future.  (Read 1247 times)

Cairn

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From one Beta Tester to the Dev Team & the future.
« on: November 08, 2017, 11:34:36 am »
Your game is dying, and almost dead.

The RPers are -gone-. I repeat, -gone-. 1-2 cliques of European friends in the same guild does not a game make.

You need to consider the efforts of the people on your development team, the LONG term efforts of the people who have Beta tested this game, and do what is right.

As attractive as a new Engine may seem, it will not save this game. Neither will new quests, new gear, new mechanics, etc. - the effort to implement is immense and cannot be supported by the current team without a development cycle that is UNREAL - and killing this game slowly.

Common complaints are either about the mechanics or the lack of RP. I think, and everyone should know this by now, that the two don't always play nicely together. In fact in many ways the mechanics either gently get in the way or are just not a necessary aid.

From where I sit, we've got two options.

1.) Shutter the game, stop bleeding time into this failed project, or
2.) Restructure and re-advertise

If you end up going with #2, good luck. Strip the game to what it needs, stop development on things that are 'nice to have', and focus on supporting RolePlay to the highest extent. Advertise the game as such, make sure the lore is ROCK solid, and find a way to bring player population up into a developed, albeit small, world that already exists and can be fleshed by the imagination. There are plenty of text-based RPs that do incredibly well at this. Take a page from them - our world can live, breathe, and be a great place to play, but it is TORN between mechanics and RP, and wants to be too much.

Develop what's worthwhile. Get a smaller, more defined focus, or watch the company continue to die.

Thanks guys - and good luck to our dev team!

Thank you, fellow Beta testers, for a hell of a decade with this gem.

(random thoughts - re-org under a Board of Directors, start structuring as a non-profit company, helps define focus & create accountability, etc. etc. - your thoughts welcome)
I regret to announce that this is the end.

I bid you all a very fond farewell

netforce10

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Re: From one Beta Tester to the Dev Team & the future.
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2017, 01:40:06 pm »
The Planeshifts playerbase is far below optimal/desired, it however doesn't seem to actually die off. There is a core of players that seldom leave and are inclined to return every so often even if they do. There's also a small trickly of new players, although most of them leave quite soon after their first playing session or even in the very first moments there are nevertheless a couple that stay and it seems they roughly even out in the end.

Although the unreal engine in itself will not make the game popular in and of itself, it will however be far better than the current engine which is way too old by now and misses quite a few features, features that would allow for quite a few things that might enhance roleplay.

People will always complain about mechanics, especially if they are grind orientated and I would prefer if the mechanics were more engaging. I however have no clue about what would be good and how to implement that.

As for the lack of roleplay that would most likely be remedied by having more roleplayers online at one time, so you need more players to play Planeshift. When I first started playing the first thing I ran into was the game crashing, many new players would just stop at that point and remove the game from their computer. Likewise, the game runs quite horribly and is visually not appealing, both of which don't encourage new players to stick.

As for everyones options, there are considerably more options although I must conclude you want to make it binary to create two concrete sides. The reality is that we can also sit on our behind and talk how things need to change before doing nothing or just continue playing the game we enjoy, even if it isn't as good as we want it to be. Although I do think it would be much preferable if we actually did something to better the game.

As for going back to essentials and to make the game more in the vein of a text based RP game: Planeshift is quite unique, it's a 3d RPing mmorpg with a large part of its community dedicated to rp or atleast enjoying it. One of Planeshifts strengths is that it is spatial, you can put down your harp because someone approached you, a kran can come up to you and tower over you to intimidate you.

All the best to you, and I hope you'll come back every once in a while if only to stop by.
Larili Soriol

Volki

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Re: From one Beta Tester to the Dev Team & the future.
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2017, 06:41:02 pm »
(Not sure why this was posted in Newbie Help, but I'll roll with it.)

It may not seem so, but there are more players around than you think. Chances are you haven't come across them. I've been roleplaying with mostly Americans during evenings/nights almost every day. However, roleplay tends to become cloistered away the further it progresses. Due to the lack of players, roleplay may seem to be gone, but some of us have stuck around.

We're not here for the game, though. The roleplayers are still around because there are other roleplayers. The game doesn't fully support roleplay, so many have migrated to other games that actually do support roleplay. (And I was saying this years ago when I didn't even know anything about game design: "PS fills a niche that other games/mods will soon take over if it doesn't improve.")

Not to mention, there's a huge amount of toxicity in this game. I see it from players, GMs, and some developers. I've heard way too many stories from other roleplayers of being told "You roleplay things I don't like," "Your roleplay isn't appropriate for this game," or "Your character is too rude." None of the roleplayers I've heard this from do anything close to what is considered inappropriate on other roleplay-oriented games, so the issue isn't with them. It's the attitude of restricting what roleplayers are allowed to do in this game.

In regards to mechanics. They just do not make sense. This is supposed to be a roleplay-oriented game and yet the grind is so ridiculous that most players who have played have never been able to OOCly match the IC capabilities that their characters should have. Grinding takes away from time spent roleplaying. What is the point, to make non-roleplayers or light-roleplayers grind long enough that it seems like the playerbase of roleplayers is larger than it is?

Talad said himself that he wants training to be realistic, and yet skills seem to grant exponential effectiveness the higher rank they are. At the dev meeting, it's stated (something along the lines of), "The higher the skill cap the less likely you are to have OP characters because who wants to spend all that time grinding?" Sure, you might have some less maxed characters, but now you've created characters that are more OP than before, and everyone spends even less time roleplaying. Never underestimate what a gamer would go through to become powerful in a game.

This leads me to believe that the issue with the game is its design. The obvious solution to the example from the previous paragraph is to make skill effectiveness as a function of rank be logarithmic. And to do away with every skill having the same max of 200, but that's for another discussion.

The points is, the game's design does the opposite of support roleplay. It actively hinders it. And then, in response to lack of player interaction, the developers have the idea of making some questlines only complete-able if other players are involved. The Way Circle quests, for example. You have to show NPCs items from other players to progress. Now, let's put that in context. There are so few players that have those items once you progress far enough. Doing it through roleplay without metagaming is very difficult at this point. This is just frustrating for the player trying to complete the questline. You can't fix a gaping wound with a band-aid.

And now we have so few players that the GMs feel compelled to hold event after event in the hope that it will keep players around, even if those players aren't actual roleplayers. Good on them for trying, but they've already hit the point at which quantity subsumes quality. Lore and immersion have been thrown out the window for numerous events. Not to offend (that I am worried I'm going to face consequences for saying this is absurd), but in the last event I participated in, a GM was roleplaying as an old man with a cane and jumped from a platform 60 feet in the air and landed on a set of stairs without injury. What?

Machine gunning now, but the skills haven't been changed to reflect lore (for example, a player should not be able to max Crystal Way and Dark Way) even though there has been plenty time to do so. Canon lore is contradicted in several older parts of the game (old books saying a Ynnwn can be the child of a dwarf and a Diaboli, as example). There is no guide on commonly accepted roleplay etiquette in the game for new players, so they come in not fully understanding what IC or OOC is and no concept of what godmoding is. And why is the full lore not included on the main website? Being familiar with lore is a priority for roleplaying.

In short, the game's design doesn't fully support roleplay, the mechanics hinder roleplay, and the GMs and mechanics neglect lore and players' immersion. I've honestly, seriously thought several times that developers and GMs may be trying to reduce the number of roleplayers on PlaneShift. Maybe it was a mistake to say it would be a game focused on roleplaying during its conception?

Back to the design of the thing. I know for a fact that development has been snailing along without the usual design documents that any other game has. Even the tiny mobile games I've worked on have had art bibles (references and concepts for artists), custom texture resources, and base meshes that were available for anyone on the team to use. Organizationally, PS is a mess.

As for the lack of roleplay that would most likely be remedied by having more roleplayers online at one time, so you need more players to play Planeshift.

The developers need more players to play PlaneShift. This is not on the players. If you don't design a game to attract and retain a certain kind of player, it's your own fault if you don't have the playerbase you want.

The reality is that we can also sit on our behind and talk how things need to change before doing nothing or just continue playing the game we enjoy, even if it isn't as good as we want it to be.

This is how you kill a game. Acceptance of mediocrity leads to incompetence and failure. The team that the game has right now needs to seriously consider what mistakes may have been made. The team needs new members who are familiar with game design.

Planeshift is quite unique, it's a 3d RPing mmorpg with a large part of its community dedicated to rp or atleast enjoying it. One of Planeshifts strengths is that it is spatial, you can put down your harp because someone approached you, a kran can come up to you and tower over you to intimidate you.

I know that you're new to the game, so I'll explain why this is not necessarily true: other games and mods have begun to fill its niche. I won't share what those games are, but they do exist, and they do not have the plethora of issues plaguing PlaneShift. Also, it doesn't matter if "a large part of its community" is dedicated to roleplay if the community consists of less than 30-40 unique players.

Strip the game to what it needs, stop development on things that are 'nice to have', and focus on supporting RolePlay to the highest extent. Advertise the game as such, make sure the lore is ROCK solid, and find a way to bring player population up into a developed, albeit small, world that already exists and can be fleshed by the imagination.

The gist of this is good. The game needs a huge overhaul when it comes to roleplay and mechanics. Fix up the lore and make it accessible. Support the roleplayers.

To be honest, the dev team needs new blood. It is stagnant, and there are many questionable decisions being made. I'll probably try to apply in the future, as that's all I can do besides criticize the direction of the game. But it doesn't need people who haven't worked on or studied games before. What it needs are people who understand the development process and real game design. You can't just let someone on your team because he's your friend or because he's willing to do it. You need competence and some experience.

To the current team and GMs: please, don't take this as bashing or complaining. This is criticism that I've thought long about before making, and these are ideas that I've bounced off other players. We see that this game has potential, but, at this rate, the game will be dead before then.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 06:44:44 pm by Volki »
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Rigwyn

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Re: From one Beta Tester to the Dev Team & the future.
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2017, 07:53:43 pm »
When the last few players who stayed despite the population shrinkage leave, it will imho be dead. All that will be left is a trickle of new players who will treat it as a single player rpg and leave as soon as they get bored.

Part of the problem is that the game is not discoverable. How are new people going to learn about it?

In all honesty, the game itself is far better than it was when I joined in '07. The community grew toxic for various reasons and the spirit of the game kind of fizzled out. It used to be about exploring, newness, experience, wonder, meeting new players, characters and so on.

Perhaps a with a huge infusion of new players and a thorough letting go of what Planeshift is, once was, and should be, it could become something once again.



estaga

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Re: From one Beta Tester to the Dev Team & the future.
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2017, 01:00:56 am »
Here are my thoughts and why I continue to play.

1) I like the concept of the game. In theory, there are no real limitations, I can nearly literally be *anything* I want to be as a character. If I choose to not run around killing things, it isn't required for success in the game. If I choose to not craft anything, it isn't required for success in the game. Really, imo success in the game is defined as simply as being able to be IC as much of all the time as is reasonably possible. I currently have 3 characters, one is quite self-unaware and submissive and has been controversial in some groups. Another is quite accomplished with CW magic, but not yet a full master, another is still learning about metallurgy and otherwise unremarkable. Yet I feel I can play successfully as each of those roles within the game. I don't have to be a mighty warrior - the chosen one - to bring peace and ... blah blah.

2) The mechanics are rather unfortunate as it seems to take as much effort to level in mind-numbing manual labor as it does to become highly skilled at a complex task. For example, mining... manual labor - most IRL people can master manual labor very quickly to the point that much more master is not significantly better. So becoming really good at mining should take far less time and the rewards come much much sooner (ie higher Q ore). However sword making takes significantly more effort to become a master, so it should take longer. In a manner of scale mastery of mining should come in "days" while mastery of sword making should come in "years", like dozen(s) of them. Manual labor like gathering herbs, mining, etc should be masterable more quickly than using those raw elements to craft a thing (tea, swords, armor, jewelry). Intermediate skills like metallurgy should influence how well we are able to perform at a particular skill level. The more someone knows about herbs and metals the better alchemist because it should take more skill to figure out what blends well, how long to stir, how long to heat, etc. Sadly, putting this much thought into _how_ a mechanic might be categorized for skills could be far more work than most people would really appreciate. And we haven't even talked about combat... I'll leave that alone for now.

3) the chat mechanics to actually perform RP is... well... challenging. I'm not sure how to improve it without making it very complex. Sometimes I want to react with some emotive non-verbal thing (/me frowns slightly, pondering the import of the accusation) takes too long to type... and is gives awkward queues to the other person. When we see someone doing this (the /me thing above) IRL we interpret their behavior and intuitively "know" they are pondering what we just said... in the game there is no way to communicate non-verbal queues more naturally. If I, as a player, could do more to control the animation of the character rather than the somewhat odd race specific loop that currently exists, that would go a long ways toward helping... so if I hit F1 my character brushes a lock of hair behind her ear, F2 she bows, F3 she looks away from the speaker... not sure what the list should really be but assigning common non-verbal "behaviors" to a short list of keys (F1-F12?) might keep the complexity down a bit, but allow more natural feeling interactions... not sure - obviously I can't try it and see how it might work out.

Final thoughts, I stick around the game because my character is free to be whatever he or she "wishes" and I can allow environment and interactions to color how my character develops as a "person". I really enjoy that aspect. Grinding is not fun, but we *all* grind IRL. Each of us practices something over and over and over again until we master it enough to move on to something else, whether its playing the piano, taking a shot on goal with a soccer ball, programming a computer, whatever. So, while it is less enjoyable and more difficult to participate in RP in remote locations to mine some ore, to me, it feels like a necessary evil and I have to manage the time I do that and the time I can be around others for their interactions. I really do enjoy this game and I tell others about playing it and invite them along. It's unfortunate there are only 4 people on sometimes in the evening when I have time to play - nothing like the days when there were 100 or more online, but the game now is much much improved, but losing the number of players means its hard to prove it.

long post, my 2 cents of thought - worth what you're willing to pay :-).

Best!
estaga

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Re: From one Beta Tester to the Dev Team & the future.
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2017, 01:48:38 am »
There was a point in time when it was very rare to see a GM doing an event. Or maybe I wasn't online during the right times, but I'm pretty sure they were uncommon. So I appreciate that GMs are doing events now despite the criticism, I know running events with at least 20 people can be very challenging and sometimes things are improvised but either way I in no way think they shouldn't keep it up. The thing about it is we should push our fellow players to go one step beyond the event and RP about what the event addressed if there's a means. I was one of those people who didn't RP until someone used Geoni as a means of hiding and as a result putting him the middle of RP. And after that the rest was history because I was fascinated with the storytelling it pulled my character into and fell in love with RP. We've gotta somehow put new players in the middle of our storylines somehow if there's a way to ( :devil: ) socially entrap them in interesting situations. This has always been the case when it comes to answering that age old question of how you can bring the population of RPers up, it's really all I can say when it comes to what we have the power to do as players, aside from also running events which never hurts.

As for unreal engine, I see potential in it, don't think it can't help but give the game more allure. To be frank, the graphics are outdated and it can be somewhat offputting when set beside other options. Not only that, but there needs to be a push to complete the lemur and diaboli models and the Ylian female model because that also comes off as bizarre for a model of one race being used to represent another and breaks the immersion visually. That, and I feel like the game can only be helped if they build more places, perhaps have more dungeons with a sense of interaction like the lavar cave (even though I find it a bit awkward I appreciate it) and with interesting architecture. I know this just straight up a matter of manpower but if the game is to be improved it needs more skilled folks who are somehow willing to dedicate their skills to the game for free.

Mechanics wise, I think the enemies need to be nerfed, they seem to have buffed them up way too much. There is always something in every dungeon that can kill a new player or even somebody who has intermediate skills yet have built skills for at least a month. Perhaps set up a main storyline that has a purpose of building up the character in a rising level of difficulties, sending them through dungeons that get harder as the storyline progresses, not just having them wander a bit aimlessly.


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netforce10

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Re: From one Beta Tester to the Dev Team & the future.
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2017, 06:14:23 am »
The developers need more players to play PlaneShift. This is not on the players. If you don't design a game to attract and retain a certain kind of player, it's your own fault if you don't have the player base you want.

I'm confused as to why we would not need more players yet there's complaints from players that there aren't enough players? I'll assume given that you say "it's not on the players" that you mean it's the developer's task to get more players. In that case the developers should indeed strive towards it since they have the most means to do it, but even players should help out where they can as you imply in the next part:

This is how you kill a game. Acceptance of mediocrity leads to incompetence and failure. The team that the game has right now needs to seriously consider what mistakes may have been made. The team needs new members who are familiar with game design.

It's unrealistic however to expect everyone to help, there are those that don't have the energy or time to spare. That's why I say it isn't so binary to either stop playing or to help out. Even the players not helping to develop the game still keep what's here now to go on, it's not how you kill a game it's how you make it continue to exist. Sure it's better to have everyone help out but that won't happen, in that case isn't it better for those that don't to keep the game going, keep some interest in it, even if a little, going while those that can help out help out.

Beyond that you also say that the dev team doesn't need someone that has no experience in game design or hasn't studied it. Which leaves only a few people that are able and willing to help out, and most of them probably lack sufficient time to do so.

Also, it doesn't matter if "a large part of its community" is dedicated to roleplay if the community consists of less than 30-40 unique players.

It actually matters quite a lot, it means that I can walk up to someone and say hello to them, if they notice they'll respond ICly, they won't at some point suddenly say something OOC or use OOC terms. If they do it's most likely a new players that's not accustomed to PS and a simple OOC message does usually suffice.

From what I notice, or rather a lack of noticing any frequent updates, there's simply not a lot that's done on the game and what's done is mostly devoted to porting the engine to Unreal. Most likely due to no one having the skills, time and or effort to dedicate to PS.

As for opening the lore, that's something I can simply agree upon and would encourage the dev team to actually decide to do that.
Larili Soriol

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Re: From one Beta Tester to the Dev Team & the future.
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2017, 04:13:18 pm »
I want just to point out a single but yet important thing: transition to UNREAL engine is not just for fancy graphic and cool feature... it's necessary for PS to survive. Current engine is no longer developed, Cal3d (a component required to compile) has been recently shut-down. Not to mention a lot of tools and feature we'd need to make the game more intuitive and easy to play are not available.
In time we may no longer be able to compile on recent systems. No need to say it's not good at all.

Volki

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Re: From one Beta Tester to the Dev Team & the future.
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2017, 06:58:00 pm »
I'm confused as to why we would not need more players yet there's complaints from players that there aren't enough players?

I'm not sure where you got this. I never said anything close to this.

I'll assume given that you say "it's not on the players" that you mean it's the developer's task to get more players.

Yes.

but even players should help out where they can

No. Never. That would be totally inappropriate. The only way a player should be obligated to do so is by also being a developer or prospect. The players of this game are both players and testers. In the world of game development, being a tester itself is a job. It involves bug-hunting and critique. That's as much as the players of this game should be expected to do.

It's unrealistic however to expect everyone to help, there are those that don't have the energy or time to spare.

I honestly don't know how you got this from what I said.

Even the players not helping to develop the game still keep what's here now to go on, it's not how you kill a game it's how you make it continue to exist.

Here's what I was responding to:

The reality is that we can also sit on our behind and talk how things need to change before doing nothing or just continue playing the game we enjoy, even if it isn't as good as we want it to be.

The game is going to exist for as long as the server is up. Development could stop. No players could log on for months on end. It's still there. You don't need players to keep a game in existence.

You need players to keep a game alive. At this point, its life is dependent on the players. It shouldn't be. There should be a continuous flow of new players to replace those that leave. That relies on the game itself (the development).

"...continue playing the game we enjoy, even if it isn't as good as we want it to be." Here's how most players answer that: "LOL! No." They leave. They find less buggy games with less toxic communities that serve roleplay better. You should not expect others to take that suggestion seriously.

Beyond that you also say that the dev team doesn't need someone that has no experience in game design or hasn't studied it. Which leaves only a few people that are able and willing to help out, and most of them probably lack sufficient time to do so.

It doesn't. Here's what my proposal would be:

Bring in new people as department leads who are familiar with game development. Let's use the art department as an example. Bring in an art lead with some experience. First thing to focus on: creating an art bible. You need scores to hundreds of reference images as inspiration for a consistent style across the game. Then create texture, mesh, and tutorial resources. These should be available to anyone working for the art team. Starting a model from scratch should be rare. Begin quality control. Make the process to joining the art team as simple and open as possible so that hobbyists can join and artists trying to break into the industry can use it as portfolio work. Advertise on Polycount, Artstation, etc.


Also, it doesn't matter if "a large part of its community" is dedicated to roleplay if the community consists of less than 30-40 unique players.

It actually matters quite a lot, it means that I can walk up to someone and say hello to them

Let's say 75% of the players are roleplayers. If you have 40 players, 30 of those are roleplayers. Because players are scattered across timezones, depending on your schedule, you'll consistently meet less than half of those players.

What if there are 200 players? 150 of those are roleplayers. You'll meet less than half of those regularly. That would be amazing.

Okay, now, let's look at the direction PlaneShift is actually headed in. I log on to see a maximum of 20 players online. Lows of less than five players. It's getting worse, so let's average it between the high and low and round to 12 (because you can't have half a player). 75% of 12 is 9. Nine. Nine roleplayers. Nine roleplayers that aren't all in your timezone. Good luck finding them without metagaming.

My point is, as the number of players drops, the chance of you roleplaying with anyone reaches zero. Because there is no one available to roleplay with you.

there's simply not a lot that's done on the game and what's done is mostly devoted to porting the engine to Unreal. Most likely due to no one having the skills, time and or effort to dedicate to PS.

From what I gathered, it's because the development is not open enough. There are people with the skills and time. But they don't want to waste effort when the development is lacking in resources and competence.

transition to UNREAL engine is not just for fancy graphic and cool feature... it's necessary for PS to survive. [...] Not to mention a lot of tools and feature we'd need to make the game more intuitive and easy to play are not available.

To be honest, if PlaneShift is successfully built in Unreal and the development is restructured, I think this game would have a resurgence. Changes in the game itself would have to follow. But I'm looking forward to an Unreal PS. It's probably one of the best decisions the dev team has made, and it is a very good decision. :p
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Elder

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Re: From one Beta Tester to the Dev Team & the future.
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2017, 03:30:51 pm »
What's confusing to me on this topic is the sense of the "original pitch". I understand the passion for Role Playing. I'm not sure if people are just imagining a second life looking game.

A 3D MMORPG comes with a lot of functional realities like the economy. There won't ever be an expansive crafting system and vibrant economy built on roleplaying in a game. I'm certain that role playing would be a lot more fun in a game that had a vibrant economy —where participation as a RPer is possible. The actual drive of the virtual economy in all living games as far as I know is based on the actual numbers of the game.

If it takes 422 pelts to advance a Skinning level it can be hidden in the UI, but it will always become accessible knowledge to the community. The industriousness that puts 422 pelts in the game, e.g. which advance a Leatherworking level that requires 1155 pelts, is a vital part of what makes games alive. Putting items, gold(even generating it through vendoring crafted items), and growing demand in the game allows expansiveness and general health.

In my opinion that's just a reality of a 3D MMORPG virtual economy that helps RPers in widely played games. In my opinion there's all kinds of principles that have been learned over the last decade plus in making that type of game if that was the original pitch.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 11:33:05 pm by Elder »