PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => PvP,PK and Thieving => Topic started by: Narure on April 04, 2007, 07:45:12 am
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The idea starts with the fact that characters have to wear all their items on their person. As well as a weight all items are given a length, breath and volume value. You would then be able to carry a sack, in which you could put items that fit, using the length and breath values and as many items as the volume of the sack allows. Items could also be carried on your person. Such as strapped to your back if you don’t have a sack their or on your belt, etc. The length and breath would take the minimum possible, for example a tefusang skin could be rolled to take up less space.
Now the main part of the idea is that 'pat down' command would be part of the pick pocketing skill. This would allow the player if they get close enough to know what sort of items the other character has in their sack or any other item in which other items are concealed. How much pick pocketing skill you have determines how accurate that is for example at the lower levels you may see "there is a sharp object in 'playernames' sack" and at higher levels it maybe "there is a dagger in 'playernames' sack", as well as this the bigger the volume of the item in the sack the more likely it is to be felt. Also depending on skill would be whether or not you get caught doing this, if you do the other player is alerted. With the 'ol big red letters if you really screw up or just a message in the chat window if it is more subtle. Assuming you weren’t caught an inventory window comes up with all the items you felt, be it just 'round object' and gives an approximate size or 'apple' and an exact size depending on your skill you then get to pick one thing to try and steal. The success of this is them decided by how secure the sack is, the other persons pick pocketing skill, the weight and the volume of the item, 'cos if someone tries to steal the coat off your back you more likely to notice than if they pinch an apple from your pocket. From there you can either fail to get the item and be spotted, fail to get the item and get away with it but trying again on the same person would mean a more likely chance of being caught, getting the item and being spotted, getting the item and getting away scot free. Other people in the area with a higher pick pocketing skill than you may still notice if the person you where pick pocketing didn't, so getting away with the booty with no one noticing would be rare. Now in any case, if you have succeeded or not, if the player you where pick pocketing notices and challenge you auto accept. This means that another person nearby could alert the victim to your attempt and they would then know to challenge you even if they hadn't noticed in the first place. If they do notice in the first place they auto target you and are prompted whether to dual you or not. At this point you scarper. For the next 2 minutes the AI guards will attack and arrest you on sight IF the pick pocketed player uses a command along the lines of /alert 'yourname'. The option of alerting would also pop up if they decline to dual you. Items could be stolen from any part of a person but obviously stealing something off their back would be much easier than stealing something right out their hands.
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Silverweave daggers are small and light. I played for AGES to get mine. Now I would get really annoyed if some low level noob came along and stole my lifes work wouldn't you?
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I think the way you explained it was full of thought, really well done. It's a good idea too, but I'm wondering, would magic have any affect on this? I mean, if, in the future there's a levitation spell, would that be able to be used in this idea?
And wouldn't anybody be mad if anything is stolen? ;) :)
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Well if I had a light valuble item I would keep it in the most secure container I could find to stop it being stolen. I don't see why magic couldnt be implented into this system and be used to distracat etc.
I guess it would be like being pickpocketed in real life. You might lose your wallet, its an annoyance but no biggy. There will be a way to store items eventualy other than in your invetory so people will put their vauble items there.
I think being able to have things like this as part of the game mechanics is a great idea because for those playing less savoury characters it gives alot more control.
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Well, if you spend all of your money on a sw dagger you wont have another million to spend on a container would you...
even after that it would mean the implimentation of banks...
or we could stop the pvp theiving and have it so that players can only theive NPC's
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If a begger gets a massive amount of money another begger will try and steal it. A noble man gets a massive amount of moeny he will buy a safe for it. If you cant afford to look after an item why buy it. Its like buying a huge HD T.V without a house :P Banks are going to be implemented anyway I think, and we will have houses at some point i hear. Theiving npcs would be like mining :thumbdown:
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different npc classes give you different items
and still i'm not a begger I train for many many hours to get them and i would hate for them to go in a matter of seconds and if we do it your way people would never use their good wepons because they would be stolen, nobody will be able to use their best wepons in a duel because they might get stolen... it would ruin the game and saying that just keep it at your house and never use them would be hindering us all, and not letting the character reach its full potential because of possible theft... its stupid.. Its a game its supposed to be fun.. not stressful, they dont want you to hide at home in fear of your possesions getting stolen!
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Well it seems to me that it is very hard to pickpocket successfuly and get away with it with the system. And if you have your daggers equiped then it will be almost impossible to steal them surely?
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If there is going to be pick-pocketing implemented, then set it up so that equipment items and stuff equipped is impossible (or very very very close to it). Pick-pocketing should be one of these things that is hard to do because you are frisking someone to take their stuff. It must be something that is hard to do and most of the time stealing stuff that is border-lining worthless. Otherwise, stick to violating npcs.
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I think it should be limited to stealing money or external containers.
If you have a small pouch or sack attached to your body then it could be cut off, untied, etc.
I don't think any thief could open your backpack and remove an item without you noticing; however a deft thief could cut the straps off your backpack and make a run for it. The game would check the thiefs skill and agility and determine if it forces the thief to auto-accept a dual, otherwise the thief gets away and you are given the option to report the thief.
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If there is going to be pick-pocketing implemented, then set it up so that equipment items and stuff equipped is impossible (or very very very close to it). Pick-pocketing should be one of these things that is hard to do because you are frisking someone to take their stuff. It must be something that is hard to do and most of the time stealing stuff that is border-lining worthless. Otherwise, stick to violating npcs.
I think it should be limited to stealing money or external containers.
If you have a small pouch or sack attached to your body then it could be cut off, untied, etc.
I don't think any thief could open your backpack and remove an item without you noticing; however a deft thief could cut the straps off your backpack and make a run for it. The game would check the thiefs skill and agility and determine if it forces the thief to auto-accept a dual, otherwise the thief gets away and you are given the option to report the thief.
Wern't all these things addressed in the origanal post?
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I wouldn't know, this is the only pickpocketing thread I've read.
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Personaly i dont thing you would be able to take anything out of a bag until you raech a bit above average rank in Pick poketing.
Things left in the inventory should be considered "Losely placed" and be easyer to steal.Thing equiped in your hands should be IMPOSIBLOE to steal.Without cuting the nerves from someones hand without them noticing you wont be able to steal their weapon.
As for magic it could be distraction for the pickpocketer and bindings for the victim.Bindings as in mental.Kindof like a sense that that thing is moving making it a lot harder to be stolen.
That would make it hard to steal valuable objects.Also i think Player houses should be IMPOSIBLE to break inot.Think about it.You spend months gathering that incredible weapons collection and sudenly BAM its gone from your house.
Lockpicking should only work for chest inside that house (that is considering tha player let you in there).I'm geting a bit off topic so ill shut up.
Well basicaly there have to be limits as to what extent you can steal and unlock.
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Does training pickpocketing defend against pickpocketting?
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I didn't overabused the "pickpocket" skill in Neverwinter Nights, for example, because if you were caught, you would be either as good as dead or locked in jail. And "pickpocketing" a sword, for example, is outrighteously absurd. For me all that could be stolen would be very small objects and small quantities of money(This would make carrying trias instead of circles interesting on a certain poin, for example, but uninteresting as well once devs remove the "weightless" money from the game system - implement weight to currecy -). Thus it should be possible to buy pocket protectors, or perhaps even to literally put the proverbial "scorpion"(or whatever venomous small creature exists on PS) on the pocket. This way rogues would have a hard life, and woudn't be able to steal any significant amount from from a single person, preventing in most parts the infamous griefing.
However, until there is a intelligent guards system, I would say no to pickpocket, so for now it definitively shouldn't be a priority now.
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How can you allow pick pocketing and not allow the slaying of said person if they get cought. I've thought on this, you need permission to slay someone that is out of order yet one could take something off of you without your permission. I don't agree with this idea although as it seems a great deal of time did go into it. Perhaps a clone of the item could go to the thief rather than the original owner loosing it all together.
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Cloning items is a very bad idea that would be exploited.
I believe my idea from above would solve most of these issues.
The intelligent guards could be done pretty easily:
An illegal fight occurs in town.
Server determines type of fight, based on challenge code, if fight is within sight of an NPC, otherwise fight is not reported, unless by player alerting guards manually.
Server determines distance from fight to guards, utilizing x, y, z coordinate system already in game. (this is the easy way, later this would generate a path the guards would take and then calculate that distance)
Guards despawn or start running.
If despawned: Server waits period of time based off distance and type of fight.
If guards run: Server waits period of time based off distance and type of fight, then sends the guards running towards the fight. (delay to simulate the amount of time it takes for a npc or player to tell the guards)
Guards spawn or arrive near fight and break up fight. If fight began due to provocation then the person responsible for starting the fight gets punished. Failing to pickpocket auto challenges the person you tried to pickpocket.
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Why can't attempting to pickpocket set the "accept duel" flag silently? Someone tries to pickpocket and the attempt is the same as agreeing to duel the person if caught.
It would be nice if there was a perception check to see if you notice the attempt to pickpocket. Could be based on INT or WIS or both without adding a new stat.
So it would work like this:
Char X: /pickpocket Char Y
Char Y does a perception check and fails.
Char X receives Item, "You steal 1 sack."
or...
Char X: /pickpocket Char Y
Char Y does a perception check and succeeds.
Char Y gets a message, "Char X has attempted to pick your pocket, Duel? Yes/No"
If "Yes", duel begins.
If "No", you can shout, "help me, I've been robbed!" as Char X runs off.
I either case, there is a chance the item was in fact taken. In a pen and paper rpg, I would determine this by how much the perception check was succeeded by. If Char Y, just barely made the role, the item has changed ownership (Char Y, noticed the attempt once the item was removed form the pocket). But if Char Y made the role by a bunch, I'd say Char Y actually caught Char X in the attempt, Red Handed so to speak.
See? Simple.
Araye
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I either case, there is a chance the item was in fact taken. In a pen and paper rpg, I would determine this by how much the perception check was succeeded by. If Char Y, just barely made the role, the item has changed ownership (Char Y, noticed the attempt once the item was removed form the pocket). But if Char Y made the role by a bunch, I'd say Char Y actually caught Char X in the attempt, Red Handed so to speak.
I was thinking that there would be two different rolls. One to determine success of theft, and the second to determine if they get noticed.
First roll is simple success or fail outcome.
Second roll is more complex.
Fail: Player given the opportunity to engage thief and summon guards or just summon guards. (summoned guards don't appear immediately, thief can still get away but the guards head towards the area making it harder for thief to escape)
Succeed Slightly: Thief is noticed and guards get notified.
Succeed Greatly: Thief gets away and nobody knows what happened.
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Yes, I agree, it would be more complicated than one roll. The "perception check" I mentioned would be modified by the pickpocket's skill and die roll as well. Actually I could think of a lot of modifiers, agility for example.
But I was trying to make the concept as simple as possible. Sorry for the over simplification.
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No apologies needed. :D
We're both trying to figure out ways to make this game fun and realistic for everyone, while weighing risks for both sides, and making sure the victim gets justice and the suspect gets rewards for their gamble.
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Just KISS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keep_it_Simple_Stupid) it. One of the (arguably) most successful open-source free game projects around based its working on it(Battle for Wesnoth if you're curious), and wasting time with overtly complex systems is a bad idea. I would say:
Single roll, 1/4 of the (single roll + skill value) is used against the perception check and the whole for the sucessful steal check, that could be based on fixed values(From what I remember, it should be >=20 for neutral and >=30 for hostile NPCs/PCs in Neverwinter Nights, just as an example), and these fixed values could be larger if the victims has things like pocket protectors and such.
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Single roll, 1/4 of the (single roll + skill value) is used against the perception check and the whole for the sucessful steal check
That seems overly simplified.
The perception check would always be a ratio of the success check. It's possible to try to steal from someone and fail and not be noticed, while it's also possible to successfully steal the item and get noticed. 2 dice is a requirement for this situation
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My 2 tria's on this subject and how it might work....
1. A player should be able to pick pocket Rogues and such for loot. If it fails, the Rogue would be considered attacked, and would pursue the thief as such.
2. An icon similar to the "trade" icon should be available to thieves when they want to pickpocket.
3. To pick another players pocket, the thief would click the "pickpocket" icon after right clciking on the target player.
4. Depending on success rate, a marker may be left in the victim's inventory. A "clue". The player may "view" this marker by right clicking on it. A window would open on it, much like examining a weapon. Information about the thief may show on this marker, such as "What was taken", "Race of the thief", "color of hair, skin, etc", or, with a massive failure even "Name of thief". This would allow the player some recourse. The player could, if they wish, turn this marker in to the authorities...the proper NPC. The accumulation of too many markers would provide a description or identity of a thief and lead to an arrest warrent. I think this could be incorporated as an involuntary trade. The thief would get a random number of coins, based on what the target is carrying. It should be a low number, but may be tria's or circles, depending on the target.
5. If a thief has an arrest warrant, he is subject to non-lethal PvP at any time. If he is defeated, he goes to the stockade, and the player defeateing him gets a reward.
6. Once the thief serves his time in the stockade, his "markers" reset to 0 with the authorities.
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Even if pickpocketing gets in-game I still have to wonder about some other problems with it. The first being if you are in some random place and someone walks up to you out of no where, stalls for a moment (worse if there is an animation) and then runs away you are still likely to know you were pick pocketed. Also the setting side of this will depend on how we store our items. If your tria is buried in the bottom of your sack then it is harder to get then if you carried it in a purse on your belt.
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The big problem, I see with pickpocketing is, that once inside your backpack, all items are more or less equally fair game. A lot of quest items are the size of an apple and being stuck in a quest forever because some lucky griever managed to snatch the triggeritem is hardly fun. The next big issue are glyphs. They cannot be banked. If someone stole my wind glyph, this would probably be just a bit annoying, but if it was the life glyph, on which a spent weeks getting it, you can count on it, that this would be my last day in PS.
Point is: If a pickpocket is able to steal items, this will either simply harvest him/her junk (things like apples), that do not justify training the skill or cause a lot of anger if things of real value are lost. You can probably count on lots of petitions from players complaining either about other players or about the fact, that things mysteriously vanished from their backpacks.
If you want pickpocketing to be fun, it should probably be done directly in the opposite way of how suggested by other posters in this thread. Instead of buying a "protector bag" to secure your valuables, you'd have a "lootbag" in which you can put items (ICly this item would be described as a fancy purse, that is worn openly for stylish reasons). This lootbag would serve as a pickpocket bait. If you have a certain skilllevel in pickpocketing, you could determine the rough value of it's contents by viewing the playerinfo.
Why would a player want to have a lootbag? Some ideas that come to mind would be:
* The lootbag (being a fancy purse) gives a charisma bonus proportional to it's contained value.
* Catching a pickpocket redhanded will earn you a reward (s/he has to pay/bribe you or suffer consequences).
* The lootbag may be a (magical) device that lets you store things more efficiently (e.g. 10% less weight).
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I like the idea of a lootbag, although I would not name it that explicitly :). In general, there may be different parts of your inventory (purse, trouser pocket, backpack, bottom of your back back, magically protected glyph sack), all requiring different levels of pick pocketing to get into (and some you cannot get into at all). All would have other properties, such as size and weight limitations, so you would have to decide which items are well protected and which not.
This could be implemented without any art at first (but that would be great of course :) ), as that would mean a major effort for the hardly (wo)manned 3D department, and there are many other more important things (my Xacha would like a body first, then a cloack, then a pocket in the cloak :) ). On the engine side, although compared to other inventory problems this may be a relatively simple thing to implement, I am well enough aware of the inventory code (and have seen all bugs :) ) to know that in this case 'simple' is still a major effort, which will result in many bugs to fix. But I do not mind the bugs, and maybe some dev likes to present us with some fresh ones :)
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Why can't attempting to pickpocket set the "accept duel" flag silently? Someone tries to pickpocket and the attempt is the same as agreeing to duel the person if caught.
It would be nice if there was a perception check to see if you notice the attempt to pickpocket. Could be based on INT or WIS or both without adding a new stat.
So it would work like this:
Char X: /pickpocket Char Y
Char Y does a perception check and fails.
Char X receives Item, "You steal 1 sack."
or...
Char X: /pickpocket Char Y
Char Y does a perception check and succeeds.
Char Y gets a message, "Char X has attempted to pick your pocket, Duel? Yes/No"
If "Yes", duel begins.
If "No", you can shout, "help me, I've been robbed!" as Char X runs off.
I either case, there is a chance the item was in fact taken. In a pen and paper rpg, I would determine this by how much the perception check was succeeded by. If Char Y, just barely made the role, the item has changed ownership (Char Y, noticed the attempt once the item was removed form the pocket). But if Char Y made the role by a bunch, I'd say Char Y actually caught Char X in the attempt, Red Handed so to speak.
See? Simple.
Araye
I like this idea :thumbup:... since all here are leaving their imagination fly...
What about an penalization?
Example, if a Thief ( Person who like stole things from others) get caught ( Duel by example), he/she has to pay an penalization ( not necessary DR), maybe a Locked House where he/she have to be at least 10 days (game time) isolated, thinking about he/she has done. \\o// Inside that locked house will be anothers NPC's (
prisoners) tha would "entertain" such player make him some riddles... Also can be an Guard that under certains circunstance he can leave the prisoner (PC) escape.
Just an idea, all of you just awake my imagination.. ;D
Its quite obvious
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What about an penalization?
Example, if a Thief ( Person who like stole things from others) get caught ( Duel by example), he/she has to pay an penalization ( not necessary DR), maybe a Locked House where he/she have to be at least 10 days (game time) isolated, thinking about he/she has done. \\o// Inside that locked house will be anothers NPC's (
prisoners) tha would "entertain" such player make him some riddles... Also can be an Guard that under certains circunstance he can leave the prisoner (PC) escape.
/me waits for Under-the-Moon to come in and say "hey that is my idea!"
I think crimes should have a fitting penalty. If someone tries to steel some trias from me, I guess in Hydlaa it would not be OK if I killed the person in return. There should be some way for me to capture the thief (a duel not ending in death as suggested for example), and the thief would then be send to that prison map UtM is designing in his head :). If I do not manage to capture him, at least I would have seen him and some faction would be affected. There would be a small chance (depending on how easy it is to get to the stolen object) of not seeing the item being stolen, in which case the thief would just walk away. For that I would like the possibility of using inventory with different 'openness' though.
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What about an penalization?
Example, if a Thief ( Person who like stole things from others) get caught ( Duel by example), he/she has to pay an penalization ( not necessary DR), maybe a Locked House where he/she have to be at least 10 days (game time) isolated, thinking about he/she has done. \\o// Inside that locked house will be anothers NPC's (
prisoners) tha would "entertain" such player make him some riddles... Also can be an Guard that under certains circunstance he can leave the prisoner (PC) escape.
/me waits for Under-the-Moon to come in and say "hey that is my idea!"
I think crimes should have a fitting penalty. If someone tries to steel some trias from me, I guess in Hydlaa it would not be OK if I killed the person in return. There should be some way for me to capture the thief (a duel not ending in death as suggested for example), and the thief would then be send to that prison map UtM is designing in his head :). If I do not manage to capture him, at least I would have seen him and some faction would be affected. There would be a small chance (depending on how easy it is to get to the stolen object) of not seeing the item being stolen, in which case the thief would just walk away. For that I would like the possibility of using inventory with different 'openness' though.
Sorry Lanarel i didnt read all the posts.. but im glad to know that we share the sames principles.
As you, i Think that all kind of crimes must be penalized.
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Lets elaborate the "lootbag" idea (of course, "lootbag" being just the codename for these things):
* There should be different types of lootbags, giving different types of bonuses.
* Only things stored in lootbags can be taken.
* Quest items may not be stored in these containers.
* Ultimativly, lootbags should be craftable and quality being the factor determining, how hard it is to get into it.
* A lootbag should have a distinct appearance, so nobody puts things accidently in it (suggestion: Like a glyphbag, just red).
* The description of a lootbag must clearly state, that it will give some kind of a bonus, but it is subject to pickpocketing.
* If somebody has a lootbag, his/her playerinfo will display some info about it in the same style, playerstrength is estimated. A higher level in pickpocketing allows for better estimation. A higher purse quality defends against estimation.
Suggestions for bags:
Name: Fancy purse
Description: A purse prominently displayed to show personal wealth and impress other people. The nature of this item however also attracts thieves.
Bonus: Proportionally increase charisma by the amount of wealth contained within
Name: Bag of holding
Description: A magical bag, that somehow makes it's contents weight a little bit less. The enchantment however is powered by the crystal, requiring it to be worn openly, which makes it subject ot pickpocketing.
Bonus: Items in this container weight 25% less (I'd really love to see a masterpickpocket looting this baby for 300kg worth of ulbernaut claws).
Name: Crystal encrusted purse
Description: A purse, that draws energy from the crystal, boosting magic. The nature of this purse requires it to be carried openly, where it is sbject to pickpocketing.
Bonus: Increase crystal way proportional to contained value.
Name: Snapper Sack
Description: A booby trapped sack, often worn by law enforces to bait thieves. The nature of this bag requires it to be worn openly, though it's contents may be stolen.
Bonus: Increases the owners chances to detect pickpocket attempts.
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Hey, that is my idea... ;)
Honestly, though, pickpockets and slitpurses generally target coin, not items. With items, you have to hide the item you took, then convert it to usable coin without getting caught. It is time consuming and dangerous. Most items are not worth it. Jewelry is a gray area. It is risky, but accessible and highly profitable. So things like necklaces or loose bracelets might be fair game. With coin, you already have the end product, which is virtually untraceable. So I would avoid the issue of losing that important quest item/reward or hard earned glyph by not having them available to take. It would not rob much from realism, as the typical pickpocket would not steal these things. Muggers and house thieves, on the other hand, are a different story, as items are easier to take than finding a money stash.
In the end, I would go with the 'lootbag' idea, but in a realistic manner. Most people carry their money in an easy to access area (so they can access it easy, duh). Make it so that only money in that pouch can be used in trades. Extra cash can be stored in your inventory bag (or shoe) with the rest of the items that can not be stolen, but you can not use it until you put it in your money purse.
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If this ever gets implimented - how about having items (Not cash) marked as "Stolen", this in turn will require the thief to "Fence" the items making them more suceptable to capture.
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If this ever gets implimented - how about having items (Not cash) marked as "Stolen", this in turn will require the thief to "Fence" the items making them more suceptable to capture.
Why? If you steal an ordinary in the real world it wouldn't have any "stolen" flag either. Special items are a different matter and may be recognised as stolen.
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But in the real world you have a police force and a system to be able to register on a national database items that have been stolen, plus you can also "ID" items in many ways.
However i was talking more along the lines of higher valued items, not common items - items that would be of notice to people anyway.
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I think there had already been a proposal for that. The proposal was to allow people to "engrave" certain items with the name of the owner.
Improving crafting a little (and also improve protection against thieves) (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=32211.0)
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Engraving items - fantastic idea - opens up a whole new craft and potential trade for people as well.
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I think you should only be able to pickpocket NPCs.
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@Omni:
1. Why do you have to mark your comment in red? I personally think that this is annoying.
2. This has already been suggested so it is nothing new.
3. Stealing from NPCs without having to face any consequences is just boring and is prone to be abused. If suggesting stealing from NPCs one has to suggest possible consequences, too, IMO.
If you are interested in pick pocketing you may want to check Pickpocketing and Roleplaying (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=32574.0) which mentions a different approach to pick pocket from players.
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I dunno, his arguments do have some merit.
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Pick-pocketing actual items or money from a PC inventory is going to get contentious real fast (and probably will not be worked on for quite a while anyway), which I think is Omni's point. A skill that allowed someone to pick pocket a small amount of random money, or mundane items on success (and hopefully cause an NPC to shout for a guard on fail) I personally think would be a better approach.
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What happens if during pickpocketing, the pickpocketed has a chance to
not lose anything (pickpocketing failed)
Notice the pickpocketing and ignore it
Notice the pickpocketing and turn around to fight the thief for the stolen items (duel, thief has loot)
Lose the stuff without noticing.