Mostly Player-Skill based PvP

[emeraldfool]

However, in this context I don't, for one simple reason: lag. Even the best of us lag around a bit. For the worst of us, combat will be impossible due to lag, which means (at least for now) they'll have no way of getting decent experience.

If you have a DSL connection, which most everyone does by now, you shouldn't have any problem.

I have the fastest DSL connection available, and I still get quite a bit of lag sometimes.

Still, if Idoru had a strong, champion character (he is the leader of a prominent guild), and I had a weak, frail insane character (which I do), I could still beat him easily just because no matter how 'skilled' at pressing buttons Idoru is, there'll always be a 2 minute gap between the buttons he presses and the actions that are performed, which I could easily take advantage of.

[John80sk]

I'm not trying to offend anyone here, but the fact of the matter is that someone who lags will always be at a disadvantage unless we go to a turn based system (which I'm not entirely against).  It happens, not everyone can run the game.  In other rpg's you won't be able to chug potions as efficiently as the other guy etc.

Now, understand that I'm not suggesting that it should stay as it is.  However, just about every rpg has a 'margin of error' between levels.  What I'm saying is this should be dealt with by player skill instead of dumb luck.  Basically when someone's within 10 or 20 levels of the other it becomes based on player skill.  This mantains the roleplaying element of it, but at the same time keeps it interesting.

And finally, yes, we all lag sometimes.  However, my point is that the majority of the time you will not have significant lag with a decent connection.

[Quitarias]

Or how about as a trial run it could be an optional sellection.
That way if you see it lags you can take it off although puting yourself at a dissadvantage in duels.
But that has obvious flaws (dont tell me about them ok ?) so how about it being a duel option made before dueling.
That way we would also make a greater spectacle for the tournaments because it wouldnt be two guys runing around but more like a quick bloodbath (i love that word) where the first mistake takes you down.Also it would make more sense that someone who has fought his entire life with swords would instinctively be tough with axes simply because he knows the combinations of blocking side steeping and attacking.
Also i think daggers should have a VERY small rate of parry (for those who dont know parrying is blocking an attack with your weapon).
While swords would have a quite high chance due to their lenght.

[Idoru]

However, my point is that the majority of the time you will not have significant lag with a decent connection.

Sorry about the delay in replying to this. But, I (and presumably others) do have signifigant lag all the time and I dont have a decent connection.

[John80sk]

already addressed, please read my other posts

[Idoru]

I'm not trying to offend anyone here, but the fact of the matter is that someone who lags will always be at a disadvantage unless we go to a turn based system (which I'm not entirely against).  It happens, not everyone can run the game.  In other rpg's you won't be able to chug potions as efficiently as the other guy etc.

Now, understand that I'm not suggesting that it should stay as it is.  However, just about every rpg has a 'margin of error' between levels.  What I'm saying is this should be dealt with by player skill instead of dumb luck.  Basically when someone's within 10 or 20 levels of the other it becomes based on player skill.  This mantains the roleplaying element of it, but at the same time keeps it interesting.

And finally, yes, we all lag sometimes.  However, my point is that the majority of the time you will not have significant lag with a decent connection.

That was your last post and I fail to see where it is addressed other than what seems to be the sentiment 'deal with it'.

My idea to remove lag effects; Start the attack timing when both players have clicked attack, not when just the first has. This way the combat would not be affected by lag. It would also seem to be the way the Devs had intended duels to be. Two people stood toe - to - toe and letting the stats, skills, and mainly the engine sort out the combat.

[bilbous]

Personally I think it is unfortunate you do not have dsl or cable available but we don't make allowances for people running on old hardware without 3d acceleration either. Sad to say, I think this is a minimum equipment issue more than anything else. There is a certain amount of lag associated with distance from the server, but if you just don't have the bandwidth should it be the games problem?

[John80sk]

Basically what I was trying to get at.

[lordraleigh]

I would suggest to make combat somewhat like it is in Strategy Games

Tactical and strategic side of skills are player-based - Retreating, Combat style used, Multiple stances, Which spell to cast, which weapons are better for a specific enemy, Terrain advantages(Being on top would give a character defensive bonus for example), and combined forces for "guild" wars(So the position of a "commander" in a military "guild" would make sense as the way characters are positioned would influence on the way combat happens. IE: A "wedge" formation would give an offensive bonus while "phalanx" would give a defensive one and so on).

Having a fully character-based "combat" like in "The Sims"(where you click on someone your "Sim" dislikes and then on "go for a fight" and just watch it) would be as interesting as watching an ant walking on a table. Still there could exist an "automatic" option like in some turn-based classic CRPGs, but taking over the tactical and strategic part of a combat as the player is usually better, as making a believable game AI for such things isn't an easy deal anyway.

Combat skills are character based(or "unit" skills based in Strategy Games), and thus if you lack a good connection or dexterity with a keyboard and mouse it wouldn't influence in any form.

Still such idea would work better on a turn-based combat system in my opinion.

Real-time in one way or another will rely on players agility.

[Valorius Rageway]

I don't think player skills in combat is what we are after.

God forbid...

However, in this context I don't, for one simple reason: lag. Even the best of us lag around a bit. For the worst of us, combat will be impossible due to lag, which means (at least for now) they'll have no way of getting decent experience.

If you have a DSL connection, which most everyone does by now, you shouldn't have any problem.

I dont. As I said in a previous post. Should I have to play a slow, weak and poorly trained character just because I have the misfortune to not live in a broadband enabled area?

I have 650ping dial up. Doesnt hurt my dueling SKILL 'that' much.

[dying_inside]

See, I'd at least like SOME interaction between me and the combat, rather than just click and sit.
That gets Boring, lame and all round drives away the player basde. Player skills still allow you to roleplay but they put a bit more interaction around the game, rather  than havng everything just run on the game mechanics.

[drah]

It takes player influence to navigate terrain.
It takes player influence to climb on the roof of the Broken Door.
It takes player influence to get into the Laanx dungeon and navigate the thin paths.
It takes player influence to play Groffeltoe.
It takes player influence to answer riddles in quests.

If the arguments against player-influence were strictly valid...

Our characters should automatically navigate Yliakum based on their willpower, intelligence, hunger, thirst and aspirations based on our char-generation.

Our characters should automatically play Groffeltoe with the outcome determined primarily by statistics such as intelligence.

Our characters should be able to answer the riddles in quests by themselves based on their intelligence, not based on player intelligence.

...and so on..


If you don't like player-skill-influenced PvP... why not roll a dice and RP the rest?

Failing that... you could always have 2 forms of combat?

- One form of combat... for those with (a) antiquated technology (b) the dexterity of a fish ...or... (c) a general dislike for player-influence in combat. - Make it purely stats/die-roll based, you start the fight, you stare at the screen... you either win or lose.

- Another form of combat... for those that find player-influence makes the duels more fun and exciting.


For me, player-skill involvement makes the duels a LOT more fun.

At least, it's a lot more fun to me... rather than starting a fight and waiting to see whether you win or lose.

[zanzibar]

There's a difference between puzzle-solving and... whatever it is that you want to call the present duel system.

[drah]

^^ And there are similarities, such as dependence on player-skill/influence.

[Quitarias]

Actualy player skill would also once and for all deny the almighty high damadge weapon invunerability.
If i can block your hits and counter attack it wont matter if im beating you with a stick will it ?
Anywaysits hard to find arguments while headbanging so maybe ill post something later.

PS:Drah does have a good point