Mostly Player-Skill based PvP

[zanzibar]

^^ And there are similarities, such as dependence on player-skill/influence.

Puzzle solving is intellectual though.  To win duels, you have to be cheap, not smart.

[Nurahk]

The main point behind all this is it's a matter of opinion.

Sure, Drah, you have a good point.  But at the same time it's a battle between RP and Enjoyment, as is everything.

RPwise, it should all be character skill.
Enjoyment-wise, it should be mostly player skill.

I'm sure we both agree on this.
You did slippery slope of RP, with everything being characterskill, slippery slope is an annoying argumentative strategy considering it has a huge chance to backfire.
Damage is character skill,
Weight carried is character skill,
Weapon quality (when making is character skill,

Why not have everything playerskill?
Make PS into an FPS.

The large ideas behind mmoRPGs are, in my opinion:
1.  You are somebody else.
2.  Your character has to practice to become better.
3.  Your character isn't you.

Now, the large ideas behind Planeshift:
1.  It's free.
2.  It can run on most machines.
3.  mmoRPG stuffeses.

Now, if you concentrate on points 2 of both lists you find valid arguments against Player skill based pvp system.

1.  People with faster reflexes IRL will win out.  (Against RP)
2.  People bring OOC skill into the game.  (Against RP)
3.  People with better computers will win out.  (Against RP)

This is the tip of the iceberg of course.

Now, I understand that some Player Skill must be involved, as I said, it makes it more enjoyable.  But it certainly shouldn't be mainly Player Skill.  If anything, Player Skill should be there for the odd win against somebody better than you and for deciding battles between two players of very similar character skill.

I'm in no way defending the current PvP system, I don't even know it, to be honest.

(I'll probably rewrite this in a bit, it's poorly written to say the least )

[Raleigh]

Make the physical skills of combat character-based, tactical, and strategic(for "guild" wars), elements dependent on players, It wouldn't be cool to end up with something like the way fights with neighbours happen in "The Sims", where we only click on the other sim, "go for a fight" and watch it having no influence on the final outcome. FPSes are mostly no-brainers(exceptions: Thief series, System Shock series and Deus Ex, you'll have difficulties if you play any of these the way you play a typical FPS), if they are the antithesis of what Planeshift intends to be, then it should focus on having mind-challeging player skills instead of just being a demonstration of a virtual world where we passively watch our characters doing whatever they like(that would be the only way to eliminate completely player skills from the equation).

I already suggested how to give some tactical depth

http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=28378.msg326610#msg326610

Also things like rain(decreases slightly accuracy for ranged weapons), terrain(being in a higher location should give your character a defensive bonus, and in the case of ranged weapons, attack bonus too), light(dark places would give advantages for races with night vision - or for someone with a night vision spell if it exists - while bringing disadvantages for those without it in combat, same with day and night). In other words: the environment should have a strong influence on the way combat happens.

I hope it will not end up like:

Yes, but if the combat itself will be entirely based on character skills, having a tactical edge of it would make things more interesting and challenging than just "sit and watch your lvl 25 character kill another lvl 25 character because you got a lucky dice roll".

Wait, in a certain form, "luck" is also a player skill, so we would have to eliminate the random factor too, alongside the capability of the player influencing on the decisions of the characters, who would be completely independent AIs we could not control, but simply watch. Now we got a 100% character-skill based game.

3.  mmoRPG stuffeses.

RPG stuff is better, as none of the games of the genre(MMORPG) I know, 'cept for PS, have RP. If models to serve as inspiration for PS are being looked for, perhaps Neverwinter Nights or a D&D rulebook would be a better choice than WoW or other of the MMOGs

[socia]

1.  People with faster reflexes IRL will win out.  (Against RP)
2.  People bring OOC skill into the game.  (Against RP)
3.  People with better computers will win out.  (Against RP)
My suggestions:
1: Faster writers on keyboard are quickier (against RP) - forbid dvorak on PS
2: Knowlage of language brings ooc skill, and big knowlage of tales too (against RP) - forbid all native english, only people who aren't good readers should be allowed to play
3: same as 1, you have better keyboard you win.

It's not much about fast reflex, if you are wise and you don't just run mad on your enemy you don't need much reflex..
OOC skill starts with knowlage of area and so, its only on player how much lost his new char will be if he already knows area, same with duels, good dueler have to choose how good he is. And its pretty hard to kill someone with weak weapons when your oponent needs only one hit to kill you.. oh and I forgot that if peoplw sould use less offensive stances, weaker chars won't have chance to hit...
People with better computers doesn't win out as there are some requirements for how and all pcs above that shouldn't have problems (it's problem of bad writen requirements and realy heavy engine)...

[Nurahk]

Raleigh: Good point.  RP stuffeses then

As for the rest, it is about fast reflexes, timing and such, Socia.  Granted, common sense does play a big part but, that doesn't mean reflexes don't.
It's still OOC skill, Socia.  Anything you can do that your character isn't taught how to do is OOC skill.
And yes, there are requirements, but those are minimum requirements.  If you've ever played WoW or EQ2 (I played both, Wow for a couple weeks, EQ2 for a few months) and participated in PvP you'd know this.  Lag always strikes.  It just strikes better computers less.

And you are referring, in the main, to the old PvP system.  I don't think anybody wants that to be the system permanently, it's not what I was arguing against.

As I said, some Player Skill adds enjoyment to the PvPing.  But I would never have a mainly Player Skill PvP system.

[drah]

Well, this is why I pose the idea of having two combat systems, it may not seem the most practical solution... but it would mean people who enjoy either aspect could still enjoy it, and potentially make both branches/styles of combat more enjoyable.

I don't even mind turn-based combat as long as there's some decision making as a player... but it still doesn't beat the excitement that's possible from what I'll call "live" combat for lack of a better description. (which unfortunately, as much as some hate it... does depend quite a lot on player-skill... or... "cheating" / "being cheap" as some wish to refer to it.)

I'm not denying that 'live' combat employs a lot of player-skill, has flaws due to lags and isn't very IC for several reasons, it's also unfair to those with poor connections and weak computers... but it is still fun, and a lot of players that I know do enjoy it, even some on dial-up... and I don't just mean "my circle of friends" ... I mean LOTS of people.

I'm just wondering if there's anyway that people who enjoy different styles of combat could be catered for. - Rather than making the current one pushed to one extreme or the other.

1)"turn-based" combat, more true to RP, etc.
2) "live" combat... stats, weapons have effect.. and to quite a high degree... players skill too, why not!?

You could make turn-based the default and make it so that both sides would have to agree to "live" combat because of how it is unfair on some players... if both don't chose "live"...  use the default "turn-based" to keep things fair.

This would also add diversity to the types of tournaments that could be held.  Some "live", some "turn-based".

I know... the idea will probably get shot down anyway... because it'll make development awkward, it'll 'draw the wrong crowd' or something.  I was just pondering what possibilities there are because I know a lot of people like both types of combat.

[John80sk]

Sure, Drah, you have a good point.  But at the same time it's a battle between RP and Enjoyment, as is everything.

Shouldn't RP be enjoyable?

I like to think of my own personal skill as being my characters natural abilities in the field.

[zanzibar]

Sure, Drah, you have a good point.  But at the same time it's a battle between RP and Enjoyment, as is everything.

Shouldn't RP be enjoyable?

I agree.

Basically, I'd like to see combat be less like mortal combat and more like a game of bridge.  Obviously it will end up somewhere in the middle, but right now it's just an arcade game.

[dying_inside]

SO are you guys litereally intending on  click watch, click watch, cast a spell occasionally get bored leave?

I'm not saying that you should press buttons to initiate an attack, dodge whatever, but come on!
I'd ask for some character skills and actions to use, rather than a runescape lookalike combat system.

I know that RP is  the central focus on this game and I;m  happy with that, but at the same time there should be a decent amount of focus on gameplay.

I at least would like to not be idle and watching whilst stuff happens o screen. You would end with an increasingly stagnating game...
A 3D version of runescape, but with a better community.

[Raleigh]

SO are you guys litereally intending on  click watch, click watch, cast a spell occasionally get bored leave?

I'm not saying that you should press buttons to initiate an attack, dodge whatever, but come on!
I'd ask for some character skills and actions to use, rather than a runescape lookalike combat system.

I know that RP is  the central focus on this game and I;m  happy with that, but at the same time there should be a decent amount of focus on gameplay.

I at least would like to not be idle and watching whilst stuff happens o screen. You would end with an increasingly stagnating game...
A 3D version of runescape, but with a better community.

Unfortunatelly there seems to be a "tea time lobby" that wishes to make of PlaneShift an Utopia for chatting with friends like in some kind of 3D IM in a roleplay fashion and scold all those who like a minimal amount of action and dynamism.

I would like to see combat where players wouldn't be mindless and passively watching like in *cough*RUNESCAPE*cough*, but need to use their intelligence(Don't come with that "character intelligence" talk again as there is no way to implement a real A.I.) to make tactical decisions on the fly, while the agility with a mouse is not important at all, as the physical part of the combat would be dealt by the character skills then. And remember that gameplay that requires intelligence isn't  as 1337-friendly as a system where all you have to do is to powerlevel and then you'll have an almost asured pwnage as "teh l33t". Everything based on character skills mean 0 challenge, 0 challenge means anybody can do it easily, and that it'll always be boring as well. Remember that this is a game as well and a game without fun is contraditory, roleplaying is to augment this fun, not to hinder it.

[Feline Prince]

What makes an argument for using mental skill in a game any better than one for using physical skill?

[zanzibar]

... Make of PlaneShift an Utopia for chatting with friends like in some kind of 3D IM in a roleplay fashion.

Sounds preferable.

I at least would like to not be idle and watching whilst stuff happens o screen. You would end with an increasingly stagnating game...
A 3D version of runescape, but with a better community.

The good things about the Planeshift community come from its emphasis on creativity and its distaste for PVP.

[Raleigh]

What makes an argument for using mental skill in a game any better than one for using physical skill?

A "game" where no player skill is required at all is an interactive movie/book, not a game, and passive experience = boredom. And mental skills gives some challenge and normally are easier to master by adult people, who usually are the best roleplayers around.

... Make of PlaneShift an Utopia for chatting with friends like in some kind of 3D IM in a roleplay fashion.

Sounds preferable.

     IRC can do that pretty well, just open a #Planeshift_Roleplay, tell people to read the Settings and write a character sheet and mail it to some IRC-Op before talking IC there, and PS would be pretty much redundant in that case. I don't get why there are so many people wishing to spoil PlaneShift potential venues by wanting to suggest things to turn it into another typical and boring RPG, gameplay-wise. Because in Planeshift, as a game, roleplay and gameplay coexist and should preferably be linked and not opposed as in the alpha levelling system of now, and character skills can be harmful to roleplay as well. The leet won't stop being a bad RPer because all is 100% character based(something I already mentioned that is not possible), instead they will level and level their character until reaching the top and start their "pwnage" then. In fact too many character skills encourage powerlevelling. To turn PlaneShift in an "utopia for chatting like in some kind of 3D IM in a roleplay fashion" is an utter waste of the potential of this project, as for that, even a text-based MUD would be too much. I don't see any reason to reply to more posts, as I have to check if that was serious or is another bait to push a unnecessary lock, or perhaps that reply was just a load of sarcasm.

[Entevir]

If you go back and read what i said at the start of this thread you will see an example game:Gothic or Gothic 2.Ive played both of them and i can tell you that as far as the reaction claim goes im just laughing at it.It took me an average gaming day to learn the basic combinations to stay safe.And about a week of casual gaming to master the "Twin side-step".
If you will believe me then mastering the fighting in that game takes more practice than reaction.And as far as lag beeing a subject i think that is something that NO system in general can avoid.Unless the PS devs make the most insanely short and effective comand for it.But other than that lag is here for good.And as for Player skill beeing a question i would like to add that the characters start as grown-ups so the player skill could be the basic knowlege that they got through their life up to that point.And the continuos improvement of that skill would allow for great fighters to come up with their own combinations.In other words if you looked at things a litle more inovative friendly then you would have seen such a simple point long ago.
Also as Raleigh said RP should help a game be fun.Not shoot down ideas that make a game fun.(And dont say im a newbie or an RP hater)

PS:It is me Quitarias.I just posted with my friends account :p.

[dying_inside]

The good things about the Planeshift community come from its emphasis on creativity and its distaste for PVP.

This is true, but that statement I guess was actually more just based on PVE or PVP. I know this is in the PVP subforum but I find it dissettleing that people want and point, click, watch game...