Author Topic: Mostly Player-Skill based PvP  (Read 10626 times)

Draklar

  • Forum Legend
  • *
  • Posts: 4422
    • View Profile
Re: Mostly Player-Skill based PvP
« Reply #60 on: July 12, 2007, 03:58:30 am »
In reference to some posts, ooc case of intelligence and fighting skills were often disputed in the tabletop communities, I believe.
There were those who believed it should all depend on character skills and there were those who believed character skills should be greatly controlled by the player.
Personally, I've been always supporter of the latter.
Why? The creativity.

The former case often led to situations when playing a tabletop would be all about rolling dice. Boring, and that can be compared to the limitating game mechanics. As a GM I never allowed situation when Intelligence roll would give the player a solution to a problem. Intelligence rolls were reserved for such cases as perception or fields of knowledge not possessed by the player. Bribing and lying? You first had to come up with some swift talk before you were even allowed a Charisma roll. Yes, much was depending on the player, but that was the beauty of the tabletop games. About combat, it was generally rewarded when you came up with a good strategy. If GM was in a good mood, describing how you attack could give you some advantage over the enemy. Battlecries and role-playing intimidating was good too.
So yeah, I can say I'm all for player's involvement in the character.

But this having been said, some of the suggestions here are really... how should I say it, faulty.
Mad strafing and other keyboard combinations aren't the only way to make combat entertaining. They won't enrich role-play either. From what I've seen it looks much more like some circus show, rather than actual duel. Pardon the expression, but it simply looks downright stupid.

So let me go this way:
Let's start with duel that is all about standing face to face. Boring, right? Even more boring when the fight looks like a repetetive exchange of blows.
I'd keep the former, but kick out the latter. Basically standing face to face and characters not doing anything, unless commanded by the players.
Now about the commands:
Replace defensive/normal/bloody with actual combat actions. Strong attack, fast attack, normal attack, faked attack, prepare to dodge, prepare to parry/block.
Some bar ashould go down with extend depending on how much effort it takes to perform particular action (and no action should be allowed until the bar is regained to some point). This should be balanced (slow) enough to make it depend less on the lag or ability to make fast decisions. Additionally prepare to parry should be the action of choice if player hasn't chosen anything by himself. It should only allow the player to create some tactics and enjoy involvement in the fight. It shouldn't allow the player to take superiority thanks to the personal player skills.
And it should be enjoyable to watch.
Obviously, casting magic would take up the bar in a similar way.

So to sum up:
Player involvement? Yes.
Player skills? No.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2007, 04:09:26 am by Draklar »
AKA Skald

Entevir

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 168
    • View Profile
Re: Mostly Player-Skill based PvP
« Reply #61 on: July 12, 2007, 06:44:24 am »
I admit the inferriority of my idea compared to Draklar's.That one is pure genius.Depends on both the player using his tactical knowlege and the stats he has.And shouldnt lag to much.Anyone who gives a better idea gets a cookie.
If I stand on the axis of the world will you mind if I say that the world revolves around me ?

Raleigh

  • Guest
Re: Mostly Player-Skill based PvP
« Reply #62 on: July 12, 2007, 06:27:32 pm »
Draklar's idea would work even better on a fully turn-based combat system, I don't know why, but I always preferred turn-based for both RPGs and Strategy Games, because it makes the game much less dependent on the player quickness than real-time combat. Real-time is usually more suitable for FPSes, and as we don't want a "1337 Cr3w" of unbeatable PvPers in PlaneShift(And by myself I'm an average FPSer anyway though I do better in teamplay, the reason why I prefer team-based combat games than deathmatch on such genre). Don't shy from it. The classic Final Fantasy from SNES were turn-based, Civilization series are turn-based, Fallout 1 and 2 are turn-based and are greater games than many real-time combat RPGs and RTSes. In fact, the most fun and still character-based combat system I ever found in a RPG was Fallout 2's one(though player influence made a huge difference on the success an failure of it). Would be quite challenging to implement though, I know. Action Points, ability to retreat multiple times, allowing a battle to go beyond its original starting position. But if I am to defend a PvP system, I would like to see one inspired by that game combat system.

Also, in Fallout 2, if you started to go trigger-happy on innocent people in a city, the whole city NPCs would take on arms to attempt to kill you. Usually it resulted in death, though sometimes I managed to wipe out an entire city  :devil:
« Last Edit: July 12, 2007, 06:39:08 pm by Raleigh »

zanzibar

  • Forum Legend
  • *
  • Posts: 6523
    • View Profile
Re: Mostly Player-Skill based PvP
« Reply #63 on: July 13, 2007, 02:12:40 am »
I give Draklar's views a +1.
Quote from: Raa
Immaturity is FTW.

Entevir

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 168
    • View Profile
Re: Mostly Player-Skill based PvP
« Reply #64 on: July 13, 2007, 04:47:37 pm »
In Fallout 2 you controled a team in an NPC world.That the bigest stoper for TB PvP in Planeshift.Its real time unless the devs turn everything regardless of state.Because if i am chasing two people who stole something valuable and a person who i could kill with a single blow will still slow me down until he makes his moves and i make mine.That would mean th other one gets away and the system could be abused.
Personaly id prefer Draklar's sugestion as it fits right in to the Planeshift frame.It requires skill.Not so much reaction time.And i was thinking that you could use balance as a bar for the action performed.Anyones who has ever tried swinging a sword (wodden or real) knows that it realy throws you of key.But on the bright side if your opponent is weaker than you you have a chance to finish him quicly.If he is equaly as strong than you play a 50 50 gamble.And if he is stronger than you then you basicaly sign your own death certificate.
If I stand on the axis of the world will you mind if I say that the world revolves around me ?

Irick

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 109
  • *Meow*
    • View Profile
Re: Mostly Player-Skill based PvP
« Reply #65 on: July 19, 2007, 08:14:39 am »
i think there will always be a desire somewhere in the PS community for player skill vs player skill. though this is not the system the Devs have chosen, and it makes sense, you can't really call it a RPG if the main PvP system is based on OOC skill. personally, i love pitting myself against others skill wise, which is why i started making my little RP dueling system. there is always that road to take if you don't like the current PvP system, make you own /roll based or rp based system for use with you and your friends.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2007, 08:39:12 am by Irick »
-Irick (frequent rper and Macie)
Though hidden in the shadows, my mind does not fear the Dark...

Head instructer of the Bujini-kyuuryuu-toutou-ryu

zanzibar

  • Forum Legend
  • *
  • Posts: 6523
    • View Profile
Re: Mostly Player-Skill based PvP
« Reply #66 on: July 22, 2007, 07:12:16 pm »
i think there will always be a desire somewhere in the PS community for player skill vs player skill. though this is not the system the Devs have chosen, and it makes sense, you can't really call it a RPG if the main PvP system is based on OOC skill. personally, i love pitting myself against others skill wise, which is why i started making my little RP dueling system. there is always that road to take if you don't like the current PvP system, make you own /roll based or rp based system for use with you and your friends.

Designing your character and its stats involves skill.  The problem is that if you can max out everything, then you don't have to make any decisions so less skill is required.
Quote from: Raa
Immaturity is FTW.

Raleigh

  • Guest
Re: Mostly Player-Skill based PvP
« Reply #67 on: July 23, 2007, 02:44:22 am »
i think there will always be a desire somewhere in the PS community for player skill vs player skill. though this is not the system the Devs have chosen, and it makes sense, you can't really call it a RPG if the main PvP system is based on OOC skill. personally, i love pitting myself against others skill wise, which is why i started making my little RP dueling system. there is always that road to take if you don't like the current PvP system, make you own /roll based or rp based system for use with you and your friends.

Designing your character and its stats involves skill.  The problem is that if you can max out everything, then you don't have to make any decisions so less skill is required.

I usually only take time to create characters in PlaneShift because it's hard to find the right combination of life events/etc. for the type of character(regarding stats and skills) that I wish to create. Otherwise it's mostly a breeze, same with character levelling when I did it, something that I never had to waste a single neuron to think about, because it requires no thought as it's quite obvious(just continue the original character idea). The WoW l33t have little difficulties on making a good starting character to reach the level cap quickly than a bad one or to excel in combat better since from the beggining, for example, and it is really obvious for any situation or game(Charisma for the fast talkers, Agility for thieves and ranged weapons, etc.)

Then it becomes a completely automatic action, just like typing or grinding. And as I don't believe in RL luck and much less that an hypothetical IRL luck would influence on the result of a random number generator, then there is no skill involved at all for most of the combat. Just mindlessly click on the enemy, sit down, hope for a lucky roll and watch. I would just watch a war movie. That's why I rarely used the in game PvP system, and that I rarely engage into PvE as well(besides the dull grind of course).

The only thing that truly involves skill in PlaneShift is designing good and original characters' life histories and personalities, something that unfortunately seems a bit underhanded right now.  Now if you want pure and passive dice rolling and no player influence or need to interfere, you should play poker or a gambling game instead. As now combat is just a "gamble" of who will get the better rolls.

P.S.: I'm full of seeing "Go play a FPS!" misjudgements about people who want a less boring and more active combat system, so this last comment is an ironic twist of that old and beaten up thing.

zanzibar

  • Forum Legend
  • *
  • Posts: 6523
    • View Profile
Re: Mostly Player-Skill based PvP
« Reply #68 on: July 23, 2007, 10:04:30 pm »
Personally, I think that your life history should be independent from your stats.  The same things may happen to different individuals, but each individual will take something different away from the event.
Quote from: Raa
Immaturity is FTW.

Entevir

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 168
    • View Profile
Re: Mostly Player-Skill based PvP
« Reply #69 on: July 29, 2007, 05:30:12 am »
Personally, I think that your life history should be independent from your stats.  The same things may happen to different individuals, but each individual will take something different away from the event.

If you want the character generation to be realistic then you need to make a branch effect.....Sort of.As im sure we all know experiences define who you are and what you are like.So each event would have effects upon your character that would effect ALL later events.If you were a good student but had a weak body then you wouldnt get as much from fighting and training events.And vice versa.
Also age would come into play as we are more easily effected when we are young.A six year old seeing a mass murder will be hit harder than a fourteen year old.Also birth events should have the detriminal effect on you.If you were born solely thanks to magic then you are going to have incredible affinity for it.But you still could become a warrior but it would take extra effort.And these events would have to stay with your character.It would have to effect him up until you delete him.But in any case thats geting off topic.
If I stand on the axis of the world will you mind if I say that the world revolves around me ?

zanzibar

  • Forum Legend
  • *
  • Posts: 6523
    • View Profile
Re: Mostly Player-Skill based PvP
« Reply #70 on: July 31, 2007, 10:06:04 pm »
If you were a good student but had a weak body then you wouldnt get as much from fighting and training events.

Fighting teaches discipline and self-confidence.  You do not need to be a body builder in order to gain something from training.
Quote from: Raa
Immaturity is FTW.

Under the moon

  • Forum Addict
  • *
  • Posts: 2335
  • Writer extraordinaire.
    • View Profile
Re: Mostly Player-Skill based PvP
« Reply #71 on: August 04, 2007, 02:27:19 pm »
I agree with Zanzi and Entevir (who said the same thing, if you read closely). A student who had a weak body could still gain the same knowledge in fighting as a stronger student, but will not have the ability to use that knowledge to the same extent. You can learn the technique to lift someone over your head and toss them, but without the strength to back it up to practice it, you will not learn the actual move.

So, as Zanzi said, you will gain something from the training. But also as Entevir said, you will not gain as much.

I am of the cental view on PvP. Your character should have to be taught (or created with) all the skills, stances, and moves he needs to fight, but it should be the player who decides exactly how those skills, stances, and moves are used.

I absolutly hate it when the server tells me where my character is hitting the other person, and uses a random roll to say how hard. My fighting character is very honorable, and would never hit below the waist, or stab a lady in the face. ;)

zanzibar

  • Forum Legend
  • *
  • Posts: 6523
    • View Profile
Re: Mostly Player-Skill based PvP
« Reply #72 on: August 05, 2007, 01:25:31 am »
My fighting character is very honorable, and would never hit below the waist, or stab a lady in the face. ;)

Honour is 100% subjective.
Quote from: Raa
Immaturity is FTW.

Entevir

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 168
    • View Profile
Re: Mostly Player-Skill based PvP
« Reply #73 on: August 05, 2007, 11:26:36 am »
But UtM does have a point (thats been brought up before).We should be able to control at least where we hit.If someone is wearing heavy armor everywhere exept his hands and you have daggers then you wuld most likely aim for the hands to beat(disarm) him.
You could set it on random if your to lazy to do it yourself.Or you could attack with a bit more precission.Inaway it would mean the difrence between a smart fighter and a skilled one.
If I stand on the axis of the world will you mind if I say that the world revolves around me ?

zanzibar

  • Forum Legend
  • *
  • Posts: 6523
    • View Profile
Re: Mostly Player-Skill based PvP
« Reply #74 on: August 06, 2007, 11:16:06 pm »
But UtM does have a point (thats been brought up before).We should be able to control at least where we hit.If someone is wearing heavy armor everywhere exept his hands and you have daggers then you wuld most likely aim for the hands to beat(disarm) him.
You could set it on random if your to lazy to do it yourself.Or you could attack with a bit more precission.Inaway it would mean the difrence between a smart fighter and a skilled one.

I think we need to hear from someone with real life experience.
Quote from: Raa
Immaturity is FTW.