Pick pocketing.

[Staren]

How can you allow pick pocketing and not allow the slaying of said person if they get cought. I've thought on this, you need permission to slay someone that is out of order yet one could take something off of you without your permission. I don't agree with this idea although as it seems a great deal of time did go into it. Perhaps a clone of the item could go to the thief rather than the original owner loosing it all together.

[Avadon]

Cloning items is a very bad idea that would be exploited.
I believe my idea from above would solve most of these issues.
The intelligent guards could be done pretty easily:
An illegal fight occurs in town.

Server determines type of fight, based on challenge code, if fight is within sight of an NPC, otherwise fight is not reported, unless by player alerting guards manually.
Server determines distance from fight to guards, utilizing x, y, z coordinate system already in game.  (this is the easy way, later this would generate a path the guards would take and then calculate that distance)
Guards despawn or start running.
If despawned: Server waits period of time based off distance and type of fight.
If guards run: Server waits period of time based off distance and type of fight, then sends the guards running towards the fight.  (delay to simulate the amount of time it takes for a npc or player to tell the guards)
Guards spawn or arrive near fight and break up fight. If fight began due to provocation then the person responsible for starting the fight gets punished.  Failing to pickpocket auto challenges the person you tried to pickpocket.

[Araye]

Why can't attempting to pickpocket set the "accept duel" flag silently?  Someone tries to pickpocket and the attempt is the same as agreeing to duel the person if caught.

It would be nice if there was a perception check to see if you notice the attempt to pickpocket.  Could be based on INT or WIS or both without adding a new stat.

So it would work like this:

Char X:  /pickpocket Char Y
Char Y does a perception check and fails.
Char X receives Item, "You steal 1 sack."

or...

Char X:  /pickpocket Char Y
Char Y does a perception check and succeeds.
Char Y gets a message, "Char X has attempted to pick your pocket, Duel?  Yes/No"
If "Yes", duel begins.
If "No", you can shout, "help me, I've been robbed!" as Char X runs off.

I either case, there is a chance the item was in fact taken.  In a pen and paper rpg, I would determine this by how much the perception check was succeeded by.  If Char Y, just barely made the role, the item has changed ownership (Char Y, noticed the attempt once the item was removed form the pocket).  But if Char Y made the role by a bunch, I'd say Char Y actually caught Char X in the attempt, Red Handed so to speak.

See?  Simple.

Araye

[Avadon]

I either case, there is a chance the item was in fact taken.  In a pen and paper rpg, I would determine this by how much the perception check was succeeded by.  If Char Y, just barely made the role, the item has changed ownership (Char Y, noticed the attempt once the item was removed form the pocket).  But if Char Y made the role by a bunch, I'd say Char Y actually caught Char X in the attempt, Red Handed so to speak.

I was thinking that there would be two different rolls.  One to determine success of theft, and the second to determine if they get noticed.
First roll is simple success or fail outcome.
Second roll is more complex.
Fail: Player given the opportunity to engage thief and summon guards or just summon guards. (summoned guards don't appear immediately, thief can still get away but the guards head towards the area making it harder for thief to escape)
Succeed Slightly: Thief is noticed and guards get notified.
Succeed Greatly: Thief gets away and nobody knows what happened.

[Araye]

Yes, I agree, it would be more complicated than one roll.  The "perception check" I mentioned would be modified by the pickpocket's skill and die roll as well.  Actually I could think of a lot of modifiers, agility for example.

But I was trying to make the concept as simple as possible.  Sorry for the over simplification.

[Avadon]

No apologies needed. 
We're both trying to figure out ways to make this game fun and realistic for everyone, while weighing risks for both sides, and making sure the victim gets justice and the suspect gets rewards for their gamble.

[Raleigh]

Just KISS it. One of the (arguably) most successful open-source free game projects around based its working on it(Battle for Wesnoth if you're curious), and wasting time with overtly complex systems is a bad idea. I would say:

Single roll, 1/4 of the (single roll + skill value) is used against the perception check and the whole for the sucessful steal check, that could be based on fixed values(From what I remember, it should be >=20 for neutral and >=30 for hostile NPCs/PCs in Neverwinter Nights, just as an example), and these fixed values could be larger if the victims has things like pocket protectors and such.

[Avadon]

Single roll, 1/4 of the (single roll + skill value) is used against the perception check and the whole for the sucessful steal check

That seems overly simplified.
The perception check would always be a ratio of the success check.  It's possible to try to steal from someone and fail and not be noticed, while it's also possible to successfully steal the item and get noticed.  2 dice is a requirement for this situation

[Baron Samedi]

    My 2 tria's on this subject and how it might work....

1. A player should be able to pick pocket Rogues and such for loot. If it fails, the Rogue would be considered attacked, and would pursue the thief as such.

2. An icon similar to the "trade" icon should be available to thieves when they want to pickpocket.

3. To pick another players pocket, the thief would click the "pickpocket" icon after right clciking on the target player.

4. Depending on success rate, a marker may be left in the victim's inventory. A "clue". The player may "view" this marker by right clicking on it. A window would open on it, much like examining a weapon. Information about the thief may show on this marker, such as "What was taken", "Race of the thief", "color of hair, skin, etc", or, with a massive failure even "Name of thief". This would allow the player some recourse. The player could, if they wish, turn this marker in to the authorities...the proper NPC. The accumulation of too many markers would provide a description or identity of a thief and lead to an arrest warrent. I think this could be incorporated as an involuntary trade. The thief would get a random number of coins, based on what the target is carrying. It should be a low number, but may be tria's or circles, depending on the target.

5. If a thief has an arrest warrant, he is subject to non-lethal PvP at any time. If he is defeated, he goes to the stockade, and the player defeateing him gets a reward.

6. Once the thief serves his time in the stockade, his "markers" reset to 0 with the authorities.

[Erisnas]

   Even if pickpocketing gets in-game I still have to wonder about some other problems with it.  The first being if you are in some random place and someone walks up to you out of no where, stalls for a moment (worse if there is an animation) and then runs away you are still likely to know you were pick pocketed.  Also the setting side of this will depend on how we store our items.  If your tria is buried in the bottom of your sack then it is harder to get then if you carried it in a purse on your belt.

[Irgendwer]

The big problem, I see with pickpocketing is, that once inside your backpack, all items are more or less equally fair game. A lot of quest items are the size of an apple and being stuck in a quest forever because some lucky griever managed to snatch the triggeritem is hardly fun. The next big issue are glyphs. They cannot be banked. If someone stole my wind glyph, this would probably be just a bit annoying, but if it was the life glyph, on which a spent weeks getting it, you can count on it, that this would be my last day in PS.

Point is: If a pickpocket is able to steal items, this will either simply harvest him/her junk (things like apples), that do not justify training the skill or cause a lot of anger if things of real value are lost. You can probably count on lots of petitions from players complaining either about other players or about the fact, that things mysteriously vanished from their backpacks.

If you want pickpocketing to be fun, it should probably be done directly in the opposite way of how suggested by other posters in this thread. Instead of buying a "protector bag" to secure your valuables, you'd have a "lootbag" in which you can put items (ICly this item would be described as a fancy purse, that is worn openly for stylish reasons). This lootbag would serve as a pickpocket bait. If you have a certain skilllevel in pickpocketing, you could determine the rough value of it's contents by viewing the playerinfo.
Why would a player want to have a lootbag? Some ideas that come to mind would be:
* The lootbag (being a fancy purse) gives a charisma bonus proportional to it's contained value.
* Catching a pickpocket redhanded will earn you a reward (s/he has to pay/bribe you or suffer consequences).
* The lootbag may be a (magical) device that lets you store things more efficiently (e.g. 10% less weight).

[Lanarel]

I like the idea of a lootbag, although I would not name it that explicitly . In general, there may be different parts of your inventory (purse, trouser pocket, backpack, bottom of your back back, magically protected glyph sack), all requiring different levels of pick pocketing to get into (and some you cannot get into at all). All would have other properties, such as size and weight limitations, so you would have to decide which items are well protected and which not.
This could be implemented without any art at first (but that would be great of course ), as that would mean a major effort for the hardly (wo)manned 3D department, and there are many other more important things (my Xacha would like a body first, then a cloack, then a pocket in the cloak ). On the engine side, although compared to other inventory problems this may be a relatively simple thing to implement, I am well enough aware of the inventory code (and have seen all bugs ) to know that in this case 'simple' is still a major effort, which will result in many bugs to fix. But I do not mind the bugs, and maybe some dev likes to present us with some fresh ones

[Kemex]

Why can't attempting to pickpocket set the "accept duel" flag silently?  Someone tries to pickpocket and the attempt is the same as agreeing to duel the person if caught.

It would be nice if there was a perception check to see if you notice the attempt to pickpocket.  Could be based on INT or WIS or both without adding a new stat.

So it would work like this:

Char X:  /pickpocket Char Y
Char Y does a perception check and fails.
Char X receives Item, "You steal 1 sack."

or...

Char X:  /pickpocket Char Y
Char Y does a perception check and succeeds.
Char Y gets a message, "Char X has attempted to pick your pocket, Duel?  Yes/No"
If "Yes", duel begins.
If "No", you can shout, "help me, I've been robbed!" as Char X runs off.

I either case, there is a chance the item was in fact taken.  In a pen and paper rpg, I would determine this by how much the perception check was succeeded by.  If Char Y, just barely made the role, the item has changed ownership (Char Y, noticed the attempt once the item was removed form the pocket).  But if Char Y made the role by a bunch, I'd say Char Y actually caught Char X in the attempt, Red Handed so to speak.

See?  Simple.

Araye

I like this idea  ... since all here are leaving their imagination fly...
What about an penalization?

Example, if a Thief ( Person who like stole things  from others) get caught ( Duel by example), he/she has to pay an penalization ( not necessary DR), maybe a Locked House where he/she have to be at least 10 days (game time) isolated, thinking about he/she has done. Inside that locked house will be anothers NPC's (    
prisoners) tha would "entertain"  such player make him some riddles... Also can be an Guard that under certains circunstance he can leave the prisoner (PC) escape.

Just an idea, all of you just awake my imagination.. 

Its quite obvious

[Lanarel]

What about an penalization?

Example, if a Thief ( Person who like stole things  from others) get caught ( Duel by example), he/she has to pay an penalization ( not necessary DR), maybe a Locked House where he/she have to be at least 10 days (game time) isolated, thinking about he/she has done. Inside that locked house will be anothers NPC's (    
prisoners) tha would "entertain"  such player make him some riddles... Also can be an Guard that under certains circunstance he can leave the prisoner (PC) escape.

* Lanarel waits for Under-the-Moon to come in and say "hey that is my idea!"

I think crimes should have a fitting penalty. If someone tries to steel some trias from me, I guess in Hydlaa it would not be OK if I killed the person in return. There should be some way for me to capture the thief (a duel not ending in death as suggested for example), and the thief would then be send to that prison map UtM is designing in his head . If I do not manage to capture him, at least I would have seen him and some faction would be affected. There would be a small chance (depending on how easy it is to get to the stolen object) of not seeing the item being stolen, in which case the thief would just walk away. For that I would like the possibility of using inventory with different 'openness' though.

[Kemex]

What about an penalization?

Example, if a Thief ( Person who like stole things  from others) get caught ( Duel by example), he/she has to pay an penalization ( not necessary DR), maybe a Locked House where he/she have to be at least 10 days (game time) isolated, thinking about he/she has done. Inside that locked house will be anothers NPC's (    
prisoners) tha would "entertain"  such player make him some riddles... Also can be an Guard that under certains circunstance he can leave the prisoner (PC) escape.

* Lanarel waits for Under-the-Moon to come in and say "hey that is my idea!"

I think crimes should have a fitting penalty. If someone tries to steel some trias from me, I guess in Hydlaa it would not be OK if I killed the person in return. There should be some way for me to capture the thief (a duel not ending in death as suggested for example), and the thief would then be send to that prison map UtM is designing in his head . If I do not manage to capture him, at least I would have seen him and some faction would be affected. There would be a small chance (depending on how easy it is to get to the stolen object) of not seeing the item being stolen, in which case the thief would just walk away. For that I would like the possibility of using inventory with different 'openness' though.

Sorry Lanarel i didnt read all the posts.. but im glad to know that we share the sames principles.
As you,  i Think that all kind of crimes must be penalized.