Guilds and Roleplay

[Duraza]

take them into good guilds.

While looking through the thread thread started by Leama (New players and roleplay) I stumbled upon the quote above. I didn't want to disturb the thread with something that was a little off the desired topic so I decided to start a new one with a basic question. Has anyone besides me realized that there are various guilds in the game with players that you see do nothing but train and chat OOCly? I don't think here is the place to name any of those guilds(to refrain from insulting anyone when you may be wrong) but there are a few that come to mind. What annoys me most is that these are the guilds I always see new players joining, these are guilds which I have no idea about IC or OOC, and when I've attempted rping with members of guilds like this they rarely know what I'm talking about.

I know that you can't force rp on players that don't wish to rp but does anyone but me believe that these guilds could also be a cause of new players lack of intrest in rp? I'm not trying to say that all those guilds are wrong and that they shouldn't exist, etc, but I want to know others opinions on guilds that don't necessarily promote rp. Don't get me wrong, I've found people who do rp in plenty of guilds I no nothing about but at the same time I'm not entirely sure that I agree with guilds that are created for no reason I know except OOC chat.

Edit:
Like to revise my question. After giving it a little thought I think a better question would be for any guild, not just those guilds who may or may not be OOC. There are negative and postive ways guilds influence rp depending on the guild and depending on who's in it as well as its purpose. I want opinions on that as well if you'd be so kind 

[Velh Krome]

What annoys me most is that these are the guilds I always see new players joining

lol I just have to second that here!

these guilds could also be a cause of new players lack of intrest in rp?

Interesting question you come up with!
Since a certain thread here in the forums I had a look at my very first logs, and saw that I tried to roleplay my char a bit (of course completely noobish, whatever). Needless to say Yliakum was a huge confusing world in the beginning, and even after having had a char in DL-guild I still wasnt focussing on RP completely, mostly because of there was so much to discover and explore. But that my first guild-membership showed me how exciting roleplay can be, and what potential it can provide!
Times passed, the Lords were discarded and I found myself levelling my char in the arena again.
One day I was grabbed by another guild, surely one that is not focussing on roleplay at all.
And this is the point where I tend to guilds indeed have a good impact on players and their focus and way to play to come. As a member of that guild for the first kinda forgot what I learned about rp and focussed on gathering that ooc-stuff/knowledge.
A few months later though I left for right that purpose: Getting back into roleplaying.

So no doubt, guilds have a major influence on the way players evolve! And yes, I may have a vague idea of what guilds you may talk, and it annoys me to see newbies joining them, as to me it feels like they get caught in some sort of machinery. Powerlevelling gets taught and is required to rank up, players either make chatroom-friends there and may stay for longer, or they get bored after few weeks of levelling and leave again.

Make setting up little rp-events, guild-specific ones, every 4 weeks, a requirement for every guild to stay alive! (Yes, a completely unrealistic, but may provoking approach;))

[Leama]

Duraza,

I admire you to try to keep my thread on topic. I cannot help but wonder if you are saying that if a guild does not role play then the player is more likely to get bored and leave if they just level up? I hope that question does not take your thread off topic.

Thank you,

Leama.

[Suno_Regin]

Wow are you serious, one little thing and everyone panics about getting off topic...it's called branching out and expanding the topic, not going off it. :/

Anyway, I admit this is a pretty original thread. I know that when I first started playing, I was thrown into an OOC guild, and knew nothing of roleplay. When I talked to people I had no idea what they were saying and no one tried to explain it to me, just said I was being annoying and a lot of GM's and wannabe GM's tried to ban me. :/

Took a while to learn, and I think that the cause really is OOC guilds. The tutorial wasn't around back then, and dueling in Hydlaa was popular (I wish I could go back to that if anything ), so it was just misleading how to really play the game.

[neko kyouran]

1) change the code to reflect that all guilds aren't automatically created. and instead, a guild founder must get a charter and have the min. required for a guild to sign it.  they then submit this charter and their guild creation status becomes pending.

2)  allow a certain body to be responsible for approving guilds.

3) have this governing body allow the guild petition to go through as long as it meets certain criteria.

4) easiest criteria is that before a guild can be allowed to happen, the would-be leader must be a member of the forums, and must have submitted a promotional guild thread in the guild forum section about the guild they are forming.  that thread must meet all rules listed in the guilds section and must be within the settings of the game (for example: no werewolves guilds allowed)

this allows only guilds to be formed that are of the rping nature.  as if they are not, they never get formed.  then only rping guilds can recruit new players, so new players are only introduced to rping guilds.

problem solved no? 

[Suno_Regin]

No, it isn't. Do we really want the pending process to be using OOC requirements? Seems like it's sort of contradictory to the purpose of creating fully-RP guilds when we're using OOC requirements like that. Of course, they're not bad requirements and make sense, but can there be a more realistic way of doing things that follows the same...can't figure out the wording, but, something similar to the OOC requirements listed?

I think that the charter could be like the forum guild post, it explains everything in the guild and at the bottom is a signature section. We turn in that charter, and also (to match the forum requirement thing) must (this might sound a little dumb) have posted in some sort of...public announcement board or something. I have no idea how that would work, but I don't think that having a forum account would be a...realistic requirement.

[Anumesa]

1) change the code to reflect that all guilds aren't automatically created. and instead, a guild founder must get a charter and have the min. required for a guild to sign it.  they then submit this charter and their guild creation status becomes pending.

2)  allow a certain body to be responsible for approving guilds.

3) have this governing body allow the guild petition to go through as long as it meets certain criteria.

4) easiest criteria is that before a guild can be allowed to happen, the would-be leader must be a member of the forums, and must have submitted a promotional guild thread in the guild forum section about the guild they are forming.  that thread must meet all rules listed in the guilds section and must be within the settings of the game (for example: no werewolves guilds allowed)

this allows only guilds to be formed that are of the rping nature.  as if they are not, they never get formed.  then only rping guilds can recruit new players, so new players are only introduced to rping guilds.

I agree with this completely it sounds like a good, fair way to ensure that guilds will be more RP focused. I think staying IC with the literal creation of guilds is unnecessary, because it would be just as easy to RP the creation of the guild IG after you get it approved. This would definitely aid RP as a whole in the game, because the individual players would be forced to evaluate their characters to see if they are compatible with the guild's storyline.

[zorbels]

  I also agree with neko, this would be just and fair. Makes sense to me.

2)  allow a certain body to be responsible for approving guilds.

I already have someone in mind that I would like to vote for to be the certain body. Sangwa. 

[SerqFeht]

this allows only guilds to be formed that are of the rping nature.  as if they are not, they never get formed.  then only rping guilds can recruit new players, so new players are only introduced to rping guilds.

problem solved no? 

This is hard for me to phrase properly. I can see it being misread already. I don't like the idea of forcing rping on everyone. Not everyone wants to, even after learning all about it, and these people are being pressured. It would be difficult to find justification for having many mercenary and warrior guilds. And I like seeing loads of different guilds. More variety, more ideas. I like having a majority of rping guilds, but rping guilds aren't always the best at training newbies the basics. For example:

Newbie: Hey! How do I train magic?

Someone deeply involved in a massive rp/smelting large quantities of ore: [Not right now! We're busy!]

This conversation pans out everyday, whether you see it or not. A couple of these leveling guilds are needed to teach basics, perhaps with some small, healthy doses of RP, and the option must always be there to join a more rp based guild.

[Phinehas]

I also agree with neko, this would be just and fair. Makes sense to me.

2)  allow a certain body to be responsible for approving guilds.

I already have someone in mind that I would like to vote for to be the certain body. Sangwa. 

Except... Sangwa's a big softy... Besides being way busy already.

[Under the moon]

Rename the current guild system and call it Groups instead. Make it free. Take away the visible label.

Create a new, layered Guild system for actual guilds of set kinds that requires more roleplaying in the creation, and less click and pay. These guilds would be monitored.

Give only those RP guilds 'outfits', 'badges' or 'colors' in the form of guild labels, which vanish the instant you take your 'colors' off.

New folks are drawn to guild labels. Only 'real' roleplaying guilds would stand out from others. Why would OOC guilds show up as looking different, when they are OOC?

[Dajoji]

While collecting information for this survey, I noticed there was not a strong correlation between being in a guild and having an edited description (which can be an indicator of a player's interest in RP). The reason could very well be that not all guilds are created with RP as an objective. Many are formed as OOC groups of buddies who want to chat while they camp in different places. They use "help newcomers" as one of their objectives and they often deliver, again sharing all their OOC knowledge of the game. Those are the guilds you see getting new members every day, fresh out of the tutorial. They tap into the need of guidance and offer it the best way they can but neglecting RP as the area they simply never considered and which their new members may have been interested in.

On the other hand you got the RP guilds, those that require commitment and consistency. The ones that can't let just anyone in. They often struggle because their recruitment process is not as simple as the "OOC guilds", making them less attractive for the player that needs instant help and quick answers.

So it's the current guild system that allows either path and it makes you wonder what the best way to go is. Despite all the problems one may come across with it, I don't think changing it by bringing a Guild Police to smite OOC guilds would help. I think that one of the reasons this community is great is because PS welcomes all kinds of players as long as they respect the other players' right to enjoy the game the way they wish within its rules. If we start imposing a group's idea of what a guild should be then we'll compromise our very welcoming nature and that can be much worse than just a bunch of mass-recruiting guilds that come and go with every release.

I'm not saying there isn't a way around this. There is. It's in the individuals. I think that although guilds can contribute significantly to promoting RP, given that not all guilds are created with this purpose, we still depend on one-on-one interaction to be the most important influence in newcomers. A new player will seek help and it's up to the experienced ones to show them the way. True, not all will learn or want to listen but if we as individuals stop helping newcomers or brush them off quickly, then we can't really throw stones at those guilds that welcome them, even if all they have is OOC.

Does this mean everyone should become a newcomer information center? Of course not. But you could dedicate a part of your in-game time to help a player or two every week and eventually your influence will be fruitful. After all, no matter what new mechanics or new guild systems we develop they will always have OOC; and no matter how great a guild can be, the quality of its RP will only be as good as that of its active members. So it really comes down to the people.

[Zan]

Mass recruiting is in my opinion the worst enemy of any roleplaying guild.

It's mass recruiting that has all newbies joining those non-RP guilds. Now I don't blame anyone, in this game you can learn two things when you're new. One, how to roleplay and build a roleplaying character and two how the game works and build a strong character. Most, if not all, new people start with the second thing. Now usually they don't have a very developed character yet and know little about roleplay, so they're not likely to be attracted to a roleplaying guild directly. They just want game information, where to get the good stuff and where to train. Where do they get this? Obviously from all those mass recruiting, easy access guilds. No roleplay involved but they do get a whole lot of game knowledge. They make friends in there and eventually they might start learning about roleplay, depending on whether people in the guild actually do it or not.

Suppose they do get a knick for roleplaying and develope a nice character, normally it wouldn't fit into that guild at all but their friends are all in it. So they have to choose between sticking with their friends and doing what their character wants. Almost everyone will stick with their friends, I did, still do to a degree. That means however that good roleplaying guilds are usually stuck with those exceptional characters that do enjoy roleplay when they start or alts of older players.

1) change the code to reflect that all guilds aren't automatically created. and instead, a guild founder must get a charter and have the min. required for a guild to sign it.  they then submit this charter and their guild creation status becomes pending.

2)  allow a certain body to be responsible for approving guilds.

3) have this governing body allow the guild petition to go through as long as it meets certain criteria.

4) easiest criteria is that before a guild can be allowed to happen, the would-be leader must be a member of the forums, and must have submitted a promotional guild thread in the guild forum section about the guild they are forming.  that thread must meet all rules listed in the guilds section and must be within the settings of the game (for example: no werewolves guilds allowed)

this allows only guilds to be formed that are of the rping nature.  as if they are not, they never get formed.  then only rping guilds can recruit new players, so new players are only introduced to rping guilds.

problem solved no? 

That'd be great! However the large majority of players won't like it, so I don't expect it to happen any time soon. This measure would mean a lot less guilded people because the roleplaying guilds usually have a standard of that character fitting the guild and the player willing to roleplay. Resulting you'd get a bunch of frustrated people because they can't start a guild and maybe can't even find one to join. It also means a lot of new players won't be able to get their much needed game knowledge from guilds anymore.

Maybe Moon's idea might fix some of these issues but then I'm wondering, will it really change much? I don't think it will ... unless a character can actually join an OOC group as well as an IC guild. Then groups can still be used to bond with friends and allow new players to learn about the game. While the guilds are for roleplay and should be picked according to how they suit your character.

[Under the moon]

Actually, yes, Zan. In a system I have proposed, the buddy list would become home to these groups, and you could have as many as you wish. They would be helpful in RP as well. Perhaps the buddy window would even be have is own limited chat interface. (limited so that it is not used for main chat)

As for the 'layered' guild system used to promote RP, it should be more realistic, making new folks see the difference from other games right away. Different types of guilds could be created in a process similar to Character Creation. The types of 'guilds' would dictate what your guild can do, and who can join in what capacity.

The problem is that guilds don't really matter to the game as it is.(which will change in time) I would like something more like the following.

True Guilds (merchant and trade guilds) would be top of the food chain with the most power. They are the -only- group that would actually be called a guild, and would get a special 'badge' (label color). They would get better deals from the NPCs, and even have the ability to influence NPC prices for non-guild members. Joining such a guild could also get you access to restricted places such as the winch. These guilds would very -very- hard to start, and take a long time.. The roleplay value in them would be high. They are awarded guildhouses without the need to buy one.

Parties. This is for those political 'guilds' that want to change the government. They would be easy to start, but would require a lot of effort to actually give them any power at all. They would have some chance of influencing Law (for when a law system is put in place).

Organizations. This is a catchall for non-trade, non-party 'guilds'. Organizations can be granted 'power' by True guilds and Parties, or through GMs.

Houses. Just for Lady Purrdy. These groups are granted certain rights -after- they have established proper background and linage.

Groups. The buddy list groups. No label. No special powers or rights, and can not buy a guildhouse. If IC, these would be used like clubs.

The above system would create an enviroment in which new folks can join non-RP groups, but will be able to see the infuence of the other types of higher groups.

[Phinehas]

I'm with Undy... as perverse as that sounds...

I doubt it'll be implemented, but his system appeals to the RPer within me...