Guild wars, why the system is fundamentally flawed in a nutshell

[Valorius Rageway]

Normal PvP rules dont apply at all actually. Once war is accepted....there are no rules in a guild war. You can attack any member of guild anywhere, anytime, without cause or reason.

And no, i dont like the decline option.

You said once it is accepted so yes, normal rules apply. It is like a group on group duel.

Again, normal rules do not apply because ONLY the guild leader can accept or decline, there is no individual choice for each person, as per a normal or 'group' duel. In those setting the individual has full ability to decline any challenge.

Also the part about secret guilds fighting is quite imposibleif you are secret how do you fight wars it would be more like a large number of attacks against a group of people.

The concept of spies and carfully drawn target lists of enemy personnel obviously eludes you. What's more, barring spies and excellent intel, a open guild would be at a massive disadvantage to a secret one in PS. One of the many reasons there are so many secret guilds in PS.

[Volund]

The concept of spies and carfully drawn target lists of enemy personnel obviously eludes you. What's more, barring spies and excellent intel, a open guild would be at a massive disadvantage to a secret one in PS. One of the many reasons there are so many secret guilds in PS.

Being a secret guild in a guild war against another open guild would be a advantage to the secret. Obvioulsy because the Open guild couldnt track them. I doubt the open guild would be dumb enough to start the war in the first place without a good plan. I would enjoy using guerilla style...much more fun and frustrating for the other side. 

[Parallo]

Valorius, once again, the big green letters over someone are not IC knowledge. Unless a person wears a uniform marking them as part of their guild or a marking then you won't know what guild they are part of.

As for the guild wars, it has to be accepted just like regular pvp so that makes sense. If you don't follow your leaders cuase why are you in the guild in the first place. From an OOC point of view think of how long it would take to wait untill everyone in the guild has come online and accepted. I don't know about you but I have been in guilds with many barely active players that still play a big role.

[Quitarias]

As for the fairness of the accepting i think its all in the guild leaders power and individual members can either leave or there could be something like a white scarf that shows you surender and wearing it would make you impervious but also if more than 50% of the guild wear them make the guild auto lose because that would seem more like surender to  me.
On another note guild wars should not only be fights but also as some have mentioned use difrent more cuning tactics and secret allies.
I can easily picture a raid group attacking from one side while an ally of a secret guild sneaks in to poison the food and water suplies and maybe sabotage plans and inteligence.O course this tactic wont be used until/if there is a nurisment requierment bar so players dont only RP food stop and bringing suplies.

[lurkmost]

Hold on here...I have looked through this topic (and recieved a stack of headaches) but has anyone ever considered a few simple options for a guild to toggle at creation (and could later only be changed through a hefty price and GM action)?

RP wise they could be represented as a series of licenses that are observed and enforced by all organizations and governments.

These toggles include a full PVP status, this one would allow full out war as well as scirmishes and one on one fights between players of a guild.
To optain this licence, I think that maybe a hefty price might be required, or perhaps a special quest wherein a number of the guild members have to prove their ability through combat.
With this licence, not only are you vulnerable to PK by other priveilaged players, there would be a public roster that shows which guilds are full PK and possibly the members.

To put it simply (ignoring my suggestions about the license bit) a guild can go full PK at creation, or they can go passive.
The difference between the two can either be simple or complicated, in fact there could be many nuances added to the system.
For instance, maybe PK licenced guilds can be labeled as independants, which means that they could not be helped by guards, nor hindered. Any official ingame RP or NPC governments would likely ignore their actions and not protect members from monsters or other
"Independant" guilds.

I would love to be a passive player watching two Guilds duke it out in the middle of town and be effectively imune to their actions, and since I don't have a license my self, nor belong to a guild with one, I could not help them.

I have some other ideas on the subject, but I think they would merit their own thread....

[Parallo]

I don't see the merits of this system. It's not IC at all and people fighting in the streets isn't something we want to encourage at all.

[Volund]

I don't see the merits of this system. It's not IC at all and people fighting in the streets isn't something we want to encourage at all.

Labryinth armies running through streets of hydlaa = "barbarians" invade rome and sack it.
Ojaveda is overrun with rogue invasion = trying to get more tourist attraction for ojaveda.

[Parallo]

We're talking about guilds fighting each other in the street and the guards letting them.

[Volund]

We're talking about guilds fighting each other in the street and the guards letting them.

If thats the case, if you all seem to dislike dueling near harnquist or the plaza, then put a sensor around and if a challenge is made, harnquiist automatically says, "Guards help!". They come running and ta-dah, also, if people just mis-clicked while trying to greet using the shortcut tab, put a "do you really want to challenge dude?" the first time so you wont be harasses by guards for a mis-guided mouse click.

[Gharan]

If thats the case, if you all seem to dislike dueling near harnquist or the plaza, then put a sensor around and if a challenge is made, harnquiist automatically says, "Guards help!". They come running and ta-dah, also, if people just mis-clicked while trying to greet using the shortcut tab, put a "do you really want to challenge dude?" the first time so you wont be harasses by guards for a mis-guided mouse click.

It would be much easier to just disable the possibility to duel in the Plaza.

[Narure]

How would that be explained IC? The gaurds idea is much better in my opinion.

[Holdan]

How would that be explained IC? The gaurds idea is much better in my opinion.

Agreed, somehow being unable to attack someone anywhere is out of character, guards would be a much better idea. How ever this is badly off topic now!

To point out the origonal post of this thread I'd have to say I agree, no body 'declines' a war... However, how does somebody decline being sucker punched or attacked? Sometimes ooc stuff is needed to prevent '1337 kr3wz' from just up[ and killing anyone, by all rights ICly you should be able to beat someone up without their permission, but the accept/decline is there as an ooc protecton.

In any case I do like the idea... Im just saying ooc precautions are nessasary for things. But there is a way around this, make guild making a tad harder, I recall there being a suggestion for a 'petiton' to make a guild proving it is IC and such. This would make newbie ooc guilds unheard of, and thus we wouldn't need to worry about evil guilds picking on weak guilds. Also, leaders should have to have been in game for a while, at least *I* think so.

The rest, follows in. 

[theirah]

I think the main problem here is:

role-playing quality vs protection for new players

well, lets face it. War isnt supposed to be a situation where everyone wins.