Vive la France !

[Rigwyn]

Of course people are killed by guns in a country which allows you to carry firearms. How many people are killed with knives, blunt force, etc in countries which harshly restrict firearms?

I tried looking this up a while back, but couldn't find recent data on this for London. The most recent data I found was from ''08 or something and it showed that London wasn't much worse than the US. It was better, but only by a little. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Those who are violent enough to kill people will use something else if they can't get their hands on a gun.

I think it's important too to separate the kinds of shootings into different categories. For example, a school shooting by a student might be a sign of a frustrating educational system ( common core, you suck! ), while terrorist shootings are likely more political in nature and don't necessarily imply that the country has a problem with violence. Similarly, gun deaths administered by cops may be indicative of poor training, poor selection and hiring or corruption within the police community.

It's very easy to just blame guns, and much harder to look at the underlying issues. Obama is happy with just blaming the whole problem on guns. Let's just get rid of all these guns and see if the problem disappears. Without guns, terrorists won't have anything to shoot with, emo kids with anger issues and mentally ill college students with Kool Aid dyed hair will just give up on their violent ambitions and learn to chill like Kermit over a cup of Lipton tea and play checkers instead, right? I don't think it's that easy.

[LigH]

As sad as the killing of several people by religious fanatics may be ... abusing such a crime as reason to limit civil rights and violating privacy is - IMHO - terrorism by the government against the nation. Fanatic terrorism may threaten some percentage of the citizen, mostly in large towns where many people at once could be harmed; but governmental terrorism will harm the whole nation, even in the smallest village.

Blocking TOR and demanding Private Key backups (fr.)

[Volki]

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/United-Kingdom/United-States/Crime/Violent-crime

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded/expanded-homicide-data

Guns make homicide easier, so there are more deaths by firearms. Most deaths by firearms in the USA are suicides. The availability of guns don't necessarily increase the rate of suicide. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

The statistics show a disturbing trend among black males for being victims of and perpetrators of gun-related crime. Considering that the population of blacks is somewhere around 16% in the United States, these tables should not have the majority of murderers and victims being black males.

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-2

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-3

Just follow the facts. Strange thing is, I don't ever see media and people who push for gun control ever mention the fact that it's mostly black males doing the shooting. They never mention gangs, broken families, or economic factors. The truth is, the facts disagree with the narrative.

[Jilerel]

As sad as the killing of several people by religious fanatics may be ... abusing such a crime as reason to limit civil rights and violating privacy is - IMHO - terrorism by the government against the nation. Fanatic terrorism may threaten some percentage of the citizen, mostly in large towns where many people at once could be harmed; but governmental terrorism will harm the whole nation, even in the smallest village.

Blocking TOR and demanding Private Key backups (fr.)

These informations (at least for blocking Wi-Fi) were claimed as false and we were told that these will never happen by the prime minister (Manuel Valls) some days ago : http://www.bfmtv.com/mediaplayer/video/valls-l-interdiction-du-wifi-n-est-pas-une-piste-envisagee-715644.html

[LigH]

Promises, promises. By politicians. The oath of office (like: to serve the public, protect them from harm, defend the constitution) is their first lie, after that it gets only easier.

You already have one of the most conservative and restrictive laws in Europe, including data preservation which never helped avoiding any assault. Is that your "liberté", to get rid of privacy?

Power will be abused. Because they can. Requires judge reservation? That can be circumvented. Requires a major crime? That can be constructed. Who would sue the mighty? They make the laws the lawyers turn against you.

Too much that should hardly ever happen, already happened for the smallest reasons. And a just even avoided assault is one of the best reasons to let the people want to surrender public rights for the promise of a bit more safety when the next assault comes. Cui bono? Are secret services really interested in preventing terrorism? If terrorism was extinguished, who would still need secret services anymore?

By the way, this era is so perverted, you are already blamed being an extremist when you are against war. Because nothing creates more profit than war. Germany wouldn't be top exporter in Europe without selling military equipment. And who pays best? Israel, Saudi-Arabia, Egypt, ... the most peaceful countries in the world, seriously.

[Siteya]

add it all up Cops in the US still killed more unarmed people then terrorists, "lone wolfs" or fanatics combined in 2015..

[Rigwyn]

So then the logical conclusion is to take the guns away from black people and from cops?  Then we only have the suicidal nuts to worry about. Most of them will just self destruct (problem solved), but a few will go full retard and try to take out some innocent folks with them. This last group is probably the toughest one to sniff out.

I'll email this plan to Obama and tell him that it will greatly curb gun violence and save the lives of some of his people, but won't do a damn thing about the specific cases that the news media loves to dramatize and harp on. Since it won't affect the news media, maybe I should cc them on the letter too - just to make sure it doesn't get ignored.

In all seriousness, I don't think that this would stop Obama from trying to destroy our second amendment RIGHT (which he could give a shit about). He'll be replaced soon enough... probably by Hillary or Trump. Either way, we'll have a fresh set of problems to deal with and gun control will probably be the least of them.  :/  We know Trump has a gun, and it's rumored that Hillary has one too.       

[Eonwind]

So then the logical conclusion is to take the guns away from black people and from cops?

yes!

[LigH]

Many years ago I heard Maxi Jazz (singer of Faithless) say in an interview, that if you want to tell something important, and you want people to listen, you have to whisper. It appears to be a kind of implementation of a proverb that the louder your statement is, the less important is your argument.

Using a gun is probably one of the loudest possible statements.

"Willkommen im Neandertal" (E.A.V.)

[Volki]

So then the logical conclusion is to take the guns away from black people and from cops?

Where did you get that idea?

[Rigwyn]

So then the logical conclusion is to take the guns away from black people and from cops?

Where did you get that idea?

Ehm.. this thread. That was meant more as a joke. Removing arms from cops might prevent a few shootings but would cause FAR more harm than good. Likewise, disarming black people in general would be racist and would have no positive effect in reality.

add it all up Cops in the US still killed more unarmed people then terrorists, "lone wolfs" or fanatics combined in 2015..

The statistics show a disturbing trend among black males for being victims of and perpetrators of gun-related crime. Considering that the population of blacks is somewhere around 16% in the United States, these tables should not have the majority of murderers and victims being black males.

[Volki]

I was trying to show that gun violence in America is actually caused by poor socioeconomic conditions. I can see how it could be construed as racist, but it's the truth. Once you see the statistics, racial profiling makes a lot more sense too...

[Rigwyn]

I was trying to show that gun violence in America is actually caused by poor socioeconomic conditions. I can see how it could be construed as racist, but it's the truth. Once you see the statistics, racial profiling makes a lot more sense too...

No, I strongly agree with you on that point. People don't just go ape shit and shoot up their school or rob people because they're tickled pink and looking forward to enjoying the rest of their life. If you go into more wealthy neighborhoods, you just don't see people whoring their asses for crack and rent money or shooting each other up. In all fairness, you might see more non-violent crime like cheating on taxes, hiring illegals, and doing 45mph in a 30mph zone, but it's nothing like what you'll see in the ghettos and projects.

This of course brings up other topics like multiculturalism and population density. In areas where people have more space between each other, differences in culture and religion are less noticeable. In a suburban neighborhoods where each family's house is separated by about 100 feet of lawn and hedges , you could live for 30 years without knowing that your neighbor was of a completely different religion, or that they were gay or whatever. When people are stacked up on top of each other like sardines and you can hear your neighbor's every thump and whimper as you roll over in your bed at night (wishing perhaps that you hadn't heard that last heated swear or cry of twisted jubilation), you are forced to deal with cultural differences. You are exposed to their lifestyles and they are exposed to yours. You smell their incense burning, and they are taunted by the sound of your cries of praise to Satan and your thumpy, dancing feet.  There is more friction in cases like this.

[LigH]

Now you know why there is a specific kind of people condemning social projects like Obamacare. If everyone was equal, they wouldn't be better anymore. And less guns would be sold. Inequality makes profits. Therefore profiteers are conservative.

[Eonwind]

Now you know why there is a specific kind of people condemning social projects like Obamacare. If everyone was equal, they wouldn't be better anymore. And less guns would be sold. Inequality makes profits. Therefore profiteers are conservative.

I agree.
On top of that I can add there are several security system a country can adopt. Widespread availability of firearms for everyone maybe the simplest approach but is not the one giving the best results for sure. A good security system accounts for the social equality too.
Preventing social reason that may lead [some subjects] to violence is the hardest path to implement but is surely the best one on the long run.