Mary-Sue plots

[Dajoji]

We've talked about Mary-Sue characters before and had some kicks while doing it. For those who don't know the term, it refers to creating a character using stereotypical and unoriginal ideas (like being an orphan, having been possessed by a demon, have deep eyes filled with a hidden sorrow, etc.). Check some descriptions in-game and you'll probably know what I'm talking about.

Well, I've noticed that even when we don't have any Mary-Sues in our event parties, we do have a Mary-Sue presence of some sort that tends to re-write the events and plots to meet that stereotypical scenario that Mary-Sue really enjoys. It's like players are already expecting these situation and they sometimes blatantly ignore what they have in front of them or what they know (or should know) about the world we play in.

Let me give you some examples:

When you see a GM guard your first reaction is:
1) He/She is there to protect citizens and deserves respect.
2) He/She is probably corrupt and I will prove it.

When you saw a riverling for the first time you:
1) Charged immediately because it must be a monster.
2) Kept your distance since you knew they could be quite dangerous.

When you are offered a taste of a very strange looking and smelling dish your reaction is:
1) Yummmmm! It's delicious! *stuffs his face*
2) Er... *grabs a big piece of bread and dips the tip very slightly into the concoction, smiling nervously*

When you see a wizard bringing a pack of ulbers to attack Hydlaa your reaction is:
1) I must join him! He has to be fighting injustice.
2) He's attacking my city, I must help the guards!

When you (or if you) are placed under arrest for a misdemeanor like wielding your weapons in the city, your reaction is:
1) This is proof the guards are corrupt!
2) Please, let me out. I won't do it again...

When you hear a man was sentenced to true death by the Octarchy, your reaction is:
1) Booohhh, criminal! *Tosses rotten fruit at the prisoner as they are dragged to their execution*
2) He must be innocent! Let him go! *Stands in front of the guards demanding a fair trial*

When you hear that the Octarch has decreed that there will be zero tolerance for criminals, your reaction is:
1) I must fight oppression and for our civil rights! Flower power!
2) About time! The fights in the tavern are getting out of hand. 


See my point? Sometimes, there are corrupt officials in the government. Sometimes, innocent people are sentenced to death. Sometimes, you should attack first and ask questions later. Sometimes, but not always. So please keep that in mind and most importantly listen. You won't get it right if you don't. It doesn't mean that GMs will force a script on you so that everything plays out as we want, but we do expect outcomes to be logical and for that, players have to stay within settings and drop some of the notions that they so eagerly and inaccurately apply to every situation they face despite the facts.

So please, keep this in mind and resist the urge to Mary-Sue the plot, be it a player or GM event. Remember that what you believe in and your own experiences are not those of your characters. In the end it is entirely up to you how you want to play your character but, as more content is developed and settings get to be more specific, those elements should be incorporated to your RP. Otherwise, you won't be making much sense.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

Again a humorous, thoughtful, and more even tempered post on the subject than we are used to, good work dajoji.

[Prolix]

I understand what you are saying but to some extent it is unrealistic. Let me explain using your examples.

When you see a GM guard your first reaction is:
1) He/She is there to protect citizens and deserves respect.
2) He/She is probably corrupt and I will prove it.

In most societies 1) is the official position. Even in societies where 2) is the case, 1) is what the authorities want you to believe. It would seem to me that the harder they try to foist 1) on you the more likely 2) is the case. Enlightened societies will tell you to respect the law but won't routinely go around bashing heads to force obedience. What is the middle ground here? "stand around and gawk?" or "just mind your own business?"

When you saw a riverling for the first time you:
1) Charged immediately because it must be a monster.
2) Kept your distance since you knew they could be quite dangerous.

Well I still haven't seen one but "fools rush in where angels fear to tread!" Advancing cautiously would seem to be your favored approach but then again perhaps it would be to "defer to the GM guard" which runs us afoul of the previous situation.

When you are offered a taste of a very strange looking and smelling dish your reaction is:
1) Yummmmm! It's delicious! *stuffs his face*
2) Er... *grabs a big piece of bread and dips the tip very slightly into the concoction, smiling nervously*

That leaves "refuse to try it?" or perhaps "Ick Pyeuu, that is disgusting..."


Anyway I don't want to belabor this so I'll just say that some people are so starved for attention that they try too hard and jump the gun so I guess that is really what you are warning against. You cannot expect all the townsfolk to be so blase as to sit around waiting for exactly the right moment to react.

The last thing I wish to mention is that the character with the completely unique perspective, condition or essence is also a stereotype that can be found in most fantasy literature, Bilbo was a courageous hobbit, Thomas Covenant was a leper and carried the white gold ring, well you get the idea.

[Waylander]

I don't see asking players to roleplay correctly as being unrealistic.  One of the events implied here was witnessed by Nurahk who found it completely hilarious how idiotic the people of Hydlaa were reacting.

Premise A: A criminal is being escorted through Hydlaa.
Premise B: The ciminal's brother attacks Hydlaa with four Ulbernauts.
Logical outcome reached by players: Therefore, the criminal must be innocent and deserves an immediate fair trial just outside the front gates without giving the guards any chance to bring forth the evidence unless they just so happen to carry it on them...

I hope you can see where the logic is some what... off

One player went so far as to have the other players vote on whether or not they thought the criminal was actually a criminal and determine the guilt with that...

Players seemed ready to believe that the guards controlled the Ulbernauts...

Occam's razor was thrown right to the wind in favour of "If I stand up to the guards I get to act all righteous and stuff and be all cool and people will be like 'oh that guy's so cool' and I'll be all like 'rawr guards' and chicks dig that and... and" ... You get my point.

I mean... really?

[Shaman]

Felt like I had to throw my opinion in here. The reason for the "public" conclusion being set, is because the quality of the players in these events is poor. They simply choose the option that might possibly give them a reward, for example setting a proven-guilty criminal free so he might pay them for proving him innocent, or some such.

[Dreamcrafter]

I blame movies and bad literature.  People think that by being daring, loud, and attention-grabbing that they're being interesting.  They always want to be the one who gets the attention, who is interesting and unique.

The simple answer?  You are unique!  You are a special, magical, completely individual snowflake!

Just like every other freaking snowflake. 

People need to develop a sense of realistic reaction, coupled with a hearty dose of cooperative play--meaning, you are not the star.  You are part of a very large ensemble cast, and you should not constantly seek to be the center of the crowd, or you're probably going to look like a fool ICly and a Mary Sue OOCly.

Just some random, meandering thoughts based on a wealth of experience in MU* and limited (but quite striking) experience here.  That said, I've also seen some exceptional players here, and I heartily applaud them!   

[Prolix]

Well it is possible that it is the action of some people who are impressed by their ability to ruin things for others, i.e. that it is completely intentional and not unintentional. Waylander's point about adolescent behavior is well taken though it was not couched in just those terms. So if these peoples idea is to just disrupt things perhaps the thing to do is to post complete logs of the events so that we can mock their absurd behaviour. Perhaps this is how the pecking order of Yliakum society can be decided let everyone vote about the actions of all involved. At the very least it would show everyone who is deserving of being ignored.

[Kaerli]

1) Uh...can you say a bunch of well-drilled half-wits?  Maybe I need to bring Mom over and have her whip 'em into a real bunch o' guards...

2) Kaerli would have probably either tried to pick the thing off from behind first chance she got or stalked it for a long time, observing it.

3) *inspects really closely* Hmmm...have I seen this before?

4) What in Xiosia's name are you doing draggin' Ulbers around like that? *runs the wizard through before he even gets halfway to the city*

5) Just try to arrest me.    (hint: I wouldn't be surprised if the incarceration spell just plum didn't work on Farren or Kaerli, Farren's quite resistant to magic and Kaerli has a limited form of that through her necklace)  (they could, but it'd take them a good deal of time and effort to do so + they'd have to do it "by hand" for the reason mentioned above)

6) Hmmm...I sure hope that criminal's name's Allola Peloosey...*licks lips and watches execution eagerly if it is* it's about time they disposed of her...

7) You might want to fix the laws while you're at it folks...you've got the guards running around arrestin' people for misdemeanors while a slaver sits right under your nose!  Now, that makes as much sense as an Ulbernaut trying to fit through the door to Kada's!

[Aro]

5) Just try to arrest me.    (hint: I wouldn't be surprised if the incarceration spell just plum didn't work on Farren or Kaerli, Farren's quite resistant to magic and Kaerli has a limited form of that through her necklace)  (they could, but it'd take them a good deal of time and effort to do so + they'd have to do it "by hand" for the reason mentioned above)

They totally should.  And then Kaerli can replace the entire guard.  We won't need anyone else.

(Just try to arrest me...  I HAVE A TANK!!  )

(*Sees Kaerli is guard captain* "Oh.  I'm gonna need more than a tank.")

[Waylander]

So if these peoples idea is to just disrupt things perhaps the thing to do is to post complete logs of the events so that we can mock their absurd behaviour.

As much as I'd love to do that, I'm pretty sure many would be embarrassed and then leave PS completely.  Red-faced and all.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

* Xillix Queen of Fools looks for kaerli to arrest in game.

[Dajoji]

When you hear rumors of a Night Thief, you:
1) Organize a party to hunt him down in the middle of the day.
2) Contact the guards to see how you can lend a hand.

[I get the impression this thread will be updated with every event we throw ]

[Prolix]

Actually, this event is specifically aimed at showing players that not all situations can be solved quickly, or with combat. They are -finally- catching on that this is something that can not be solved by brute force, and needs cooperation and planning with the guards, who -do- have a plan.

When a GM/guard tells you "Don't fight him!" and "Stand back!" or "He is still to powerful!", then you should assume bad things will happen if you do not listen, and it is not a combat event.

When you hear rumors of a Night Thief, you:
1) Organize a party to hunt him down in the middle of the day.
2) Contact the guards to see how you can lend a hand.

Does not compute... no, wait, does this mean that option 2 is your preferred option for all your examples? I was taking them for just the flip side of the mary-sue coin! but no, the first example you gave option one was the seemingly reasonable choice. I am confused.

Have you come up with a scoring system yet so I can tell if I am a Maryann or a Ginger? Maybe I am just Gilligan though I think myself the Professor.

From my experiences in the real world law enforcement do not want to be bothered by people offering to help as they are likely to just get in the way. It is a different story if they ask for help but unsolicited offers just get you a funny look.

[Kaerli]

When you hear rumors of a Night Thief, you:
1) Organize a party to hunt him down in the middle of the day.
2) Contact the guards to see how you can lend a hand.

[I get the impression this thread will be updated with every event we throw ]

Kaerli's busy figuring out how to counter his attack tactics...  (what Rogue would expect to be counterattacked after casting a powerful freeze spell on his victim?)

[Dajoji]

Actually, this event is specifically aimed at showing players that not all situations can be solved quickly, or with combat. They are -finally- catching on that this is something that can not be solved by brute force, and needs cooperation and planning with the guards, who -do- have a plan.

When a GM/guard tells you "Don't fight him!" and "Stand back!" or "He is still to powerful!", then you should assume bad things will happen if you do not listen, and it is not a combat event.

When you hear rumors of a Night Thief, you:
1) Organize a party to hunt him down in the middle of the day.
2) Contact the guards to see how you can lend a hand.

Does not compute... no, wait, does this mean that option 2 is your preferred option for all your examples? I was taking them for just the flip side of the mary-sue coin! but no, the first example you gave option one was the seemingly reasonable choice. I am confused.

Have you come up with a scoring system yet so I can tell if I am a Maryann or a Ginger? Maybe I am just Gilligan though I think myself the Professor.

From my experiences in the real world law enforcement do not want to be bothered by people offering to help as they are likely to just get in the way. It is a different story if they ask for help but unsolicited offers just get you a funny look.

In the examples provided, sometimes the choice that makes more sense if you look at the evidence provided in the event will be 1) and for others 2). No particular order was set.

Oh, and I'd say you're a Maryann.