Godmodding GMs!

[Dajoji]

So, Game Masters apply the game settings through events, bringing them closer to players' RP. We remind them of those things mechanics cannot yet cover or police. We create situations in which players can roleplay their characters in accordance to what should exist in the world of Yliakum. Because of this, events are run through settings first to make sure we got all angles covered and consistency is not compromised.

GMs also have access to certain powers that IC could be translated as "godly". We can drop an ulbernaut on your head if we need to. We can port you anywhere in the world and even to parallel dimensions where you are the only living person. We can make you sit down compulsively. We can cut your tongue. We can turn you into any living creature. We can make your character age, change the color of their hair or give you a tattoo and make these changes permanent. We can even strip you naked. And more. And we can do all of this with a few commands. That means that we can create IC situations in which your character will be "forced" to do or face something.

Note that I'm talking about IC situations. That means that should we do any of the things listed above it will be within a context that fits the game settings and players will always get the choice to sit the event out if it doesn't fit their character. We do not force players to join events. We offer the choice and from that point we provide consequences to the players' decisions.

Now, that means that we are somewhat in control of what may happen in these situations. The only thing we cannot and will not attempt to control will be your choices. We'll have different scenarios prepared so you can choose to follow one path or another and we try to roll with what players wish to do once the party has reached an agreement (if 10 people can't agree on what to do, we simply wait and see what they do as a group).

The bottom line is GMs have the upper hand here over players, in a similar yet, hopefully, more intelligent way as NPCs do with quests. Certain answers are expected from players, choices are given, and situations are altered to provide players with information they can use to solve the mysteries at hand. The way these situations are being altered is mostly through available mechanics and, again, supported IC by the settings, and we always provide a way out so all characters can stay IC and react as they should. Sometimes, we describe the situation with messages that describe things you may hear or see. Sometimes we will make you feel certain things as a consequence of your actions like a "deep sense of loss" caused by a divine power after you participated in some kind of ritual, or plain dizziness or a stomachache because that pie your character ate didn't agree with you.

Well, my question is: how do players feel about us having "the upper hand"? Do you consider that godmodding? If it is, is it the same as when a player does it? What would you find acceptable and what would be going too far? Do you think there's a better way?

[Sen]

Hmmm... at a first thought it is for me the difference if your character godmods ("I don't like your nose and so I turn you into a clacker" *zap* ) or if you use the powers to create an as realistic scenario as possible ( *An extraordinary strong earthquake lets all stumble* -> You let all sit down a moment )
Naturally, I wouldn't like the first but would like the second. 

Sen

[zanzibar]

The bottom line is GMs have the upper hand here over players, in a similar yet, hopefully, more intelligent way as NPCs do with quests.

That's the goal.

With a lot of the events I've been to, it seems less about being IC and more about showing off or attracting attention, or simply having fun.

Well, my question is: how do players feel about us having "the upper hand"? Do you consider that godmodding? If it is, is it the same as when a player does it? What would you find acceptable and what would be going too far? Do you think there's a better way?

It's a matter of how you do it.  Can you give examples of things that have been done and then we can say if we think it was inappropriate?  It's best to work in terms of specific examples.

[Rennaj]

First off I would like to remind you what GM stands for, Games Master, not Game Magician.
So I fell you do not need to do most of the things you have sighted, not to mention find a IC reason for doing it.
In my view a GM should only need ban/boot/mute/port/move target/give/take items/change name. The rest should be handled by setting devs, after all it is there job, and you and me do not have privy to all they are planning.

[zanzibar]

Talad and the settings team do have a secret plan, and we don't know all the details of it, but players have more than enough information to roleplay.  If players have enough information to roleplay well, then game masters have enough information to run events that are fun and settings-friendly.

Edit:  Dajoji even said that game masters consult with the settings team before running an event.

[Bamko]

well, since we are asked how we feel, here is my opinion:

If a GM was doing an event where they played the role of Talad, Laanx, etc, then appropriate power would be ... appropriate.
I would think the primary role of a GM would be to police and admin the game itself.  (as per Rennaj's post).  If they get bored and just want to play, I would think they should play normal characters bound by the same rules and laws.  Imagine if police were allowed to shoot anyone who got in their way when they were off duty.

However... If they were to, for example, be creative in their roles as GM... Let's say you catch someone aggroing monsters and getting them lost, to prevent others from playing.  Sure, you could warn them, but how much more fun it would be if you then simply became the mightiest ulbernaut, or whatever they were aggro'ing and chased them across maps, wait for them to log back in... etc... now this vicious monster might even run into hydlaa, where the community could join forces to defeat it.  Fun stuff.  And then an "angel' of talad could explain to the mob... I mean crowd.. that so-and so lured this danger to hydlaa, and for the next 10 minutes, or until they die, Talad would be lifting his protection from him... hehehe. That and the local guard leader and the octarch asking the posse to remove this person from yliakum, and help him find his trial in the DR, (where the penalty will be the curse, as normal... of course) would liven things up...

In other words, it can be fun, within settings and all that. 

But a God other than the ones we know coming into the world and trying to interact with us mere mortals, would the residents of Yliakum not start a new church in their name?

Besides, I remember once chatting around the anvil at harnquist's and harnquist joined the conversation.  No spells, no magic, just conversation.  Much better than even when the Riverlings invaded Hydlaa, IMO.  (besides, where are those guys?  I have looked all over.  If they were from the stone labyrinth, then, as per the octarch decree, we should of killed them, but if they are not, then we should not have... and I do nto see them locally.... were we wrong to let them live?  hehehe, I know..  )

[Dajoji]

Well, let's say you are tied down. Then you try to cut the ropes with a pocket knife. The GM says "It's a strong rope. It takes time to cut through it", while the player says "It's a strong knife, it can cut through any rope easily!" The rationale being the GM probably needs the player to sit still for a minute while the player has a Q300 dagger. Should the GM be able to determine the strength of the rope?

[Mathy Stockington]

Well, let's say you are tied down. Then you try to cut the ropes with a pocket knife. The GM says "It's a strong rope. It takes time to cut through it", while the player says "It's a strong knife, it can cut through any rope easily!" The rationale being the GM probably needs the player to sit still for a minute while the player has a Q300 dagger. Should the GM be able to determine the strength of the rope?

Maybe the question should be if the players have to stay IC shouldn't the GM's also? Though I will say if an event is done with fun in mind for EVERYONE then I do not think the GM powers will come into play at all.  A good event should not need it anyway if it is well thought out. Godmodding is forbidden and it should apply to everyone.

[Prolix]

Why use rope when chains will do a better job? Both are imaginary to begin with.

[zanzibar]

Well, let's say you are tied down. Then you try to cut the ropes with a pocket knife. The GM says "It's a strong rope. It takes time to cut through it", while the player says "It's a strong knife, it can cut through any rope easily!" The rationale being the GM probably needs the player to sit still for a minute while the player has a Q300 dagger. Should the GM be able to determine the strength of the rope?

The real answer is "Create an animation for it."

Why use rope when chains will do a better job? Both are imaginary to begin with.

The example was with ropes.

[Prolix]

The example was with ropes.

The obvious response is to use the appropriate tool in the first place. If it is important for the player to be immobilized such that he cannot free himself then even chains will not do, Use magical manacles or some such thing so that it is perfectly obvious he has to god-mod to get out or wait to be released. Should gm's have power not available to players? absolutely

[Lhaa]

Well, let's say you are tied down. Then you try to cut the ropes with a pocket knife. The GM says "It's a strong rope. It takes time to cut through it", while the player says "It's a strong knife, it can cut through any rope easily!" The rationale being the GM probably needs the player to sit still for a minute while the player has a Q300 dagger. Should the GM be able to determine the strength of the rope?

This exactly happened to me along with another player over a year ago. A GM used a whip to tie us and forced us to sit down. We -tried- all sorts of ways to get rid of that, in the end it became no fun at all. Why?
Well, I think it was obvious we -could- actually RP in a fairly enough way and there was no need for that, there was no need either to be silent upon our attempts to free ourselves (the GMs were probably busy in tells and sorting the event, but that doesn't get to the modded player, does it?). We felt modded and ignored, and simply logged off after 10-15 mins of trying to free our chars of a forced /sit.

So my answer is yes, it is godmodding and yes, it can easily get annoying. I believe you won't be able to "control" some players if you don't use such commands, but I also believe there are -plenty- of players who will go along with anything the GM does to them with simple /me's and that means GMs should try to evaluate wether the player is about to accept the consequences of the ongoing RP without using extra GM powers or not.
On the other hand, even if the players may not be willing to play "fair", a GM forcing anything on them may nonetheless reduce the fun for those players as well, so I think that generally it is a bad idea to use any sort of commands alike.

As a sidenote, I remember one of Dajoji's events for a small group I took part in. In the end of the event the group would get Levrus to brew a levitating potion for them, this meaning most of us ended flying around for a short while, which was quite fun and fitting (that was the whole reward of the event btw, which was great). So I guess it may depend on -how- the GM powers are used regarding the player's opinion/feeling about it.

[Bamko]

good points.  I guess my view on that is use actors to "pretend to be bleeding" rather than slicing up your audience and expecting them all to like it.

Many would go to great length to play along, if you need them to, find ones that will do so, willingly? 

[StitchedChin]

Great points Lhaa, and actually a lot of what I was going to touch on.  Players like to feel they have some control during the event, able to change the story with the skills they feel their characters have or have actually worked on, factions, skills, stats, etc.  A few examples I've seen in events is veteran players just go along with whatever they think the GMs want them to do, knowing there is only one "solution" to the event, so why fight it, just go along with it, even if it goes against the way they control their character normally.

I think the point about the ropes is if someone has an idea that the GMs didn't think about and they want to challenge the storyline, they can't because then that will mess up the way the GMs want the event to go.  This is of course the challenge, learning how to improvise, diverge and make the story up as it goes along, trying to take into account the diversity of the characters who make up Yliakum.  Players don't want to be just classified as citizens and pawns.  Some want to be evil, some want to be drunks, outlaws, suave, noble, etc, and events do not allow for that freedom.  I think using the factions, skills, stats, descriptions of characters could help keep things more realistic during events.

And why is it so bad if we fail at an event?  If it goes horribly wrong?  If that keeps happening, the players we'll have something to work on next time, and it could  open up new ideas for the next event.  Like the Vileneck event would have been pretty fun if the evil aligned characters could have sided with him and helped him, and I know some were trying but they were killed just as quickly as the do-gooders and seemed to have been ignored.  What if someone warned him that the coins were the cause of his downfall and he actually stopped taking them early on?  I think the storylines should be more open ended and the use of god-modding to keep them inline should be used more for improvisations.  Storylines could go on for months and I know most say we can do this now on our own, but with the mechanics the GMs have at their disposal, it would make it much more interesting and fun with their involvement, especially since skill sets dominate the power of a character, so newer players would feel left out unless they got a temporary boost from the GMs, similar to being able to fly for a short while.

[zanzibar]

I think the GMs should have regular casual encounters with the players.