[Kiern]

Rules are not good unless their enforced...sure, their not clearly stated which is another problem, and always will be...but even posts that are currently deleted, there is no reason for someone to not continue spamming again, or even post the same exact thing...they don\'t get a warning (with a few exceptions of course, as always), there is no threat that if their posts are completely stupid or flames and get deleted that they will get in trouble for it.

Hell, if I were a mod I would have warned myself a long time ago...some of what I say is pretty bad (or at least used to) and outright spam, and it\'s just to see if I get a response for it...none yet

EDIT:  I agree with what Dameon said in the other thread, except for the reporting part...

[Uyaem]

I\'m trying to understand both parts of the story here, but I keep asking myself one question over and over again:

Forums are of course about exchange of information and, in this case, about the game/pre-alpha \"planeshift\". In everyday life there are so many rules and regulations that it sometimes makes me wanna puke.
On the other hand I can see that too many senseless postings can annoy ppl, hence I understand the reasons why they want it to be stopped. Like in Aendar\'s guild thread (though I did quite some senseless posts there myself).

Is it so hard to use some common sense when it comes to these matters? IMHO these forums are not meant for pure discussion only, like the game they should be mostly for fun, while beeing informational at the same time. Personally I have nothing agains whemy\'s postings at Hydlaa plaza, because they amuse me from time to time . Where on the other hand subforums like the guild announcement threads should be kept free of this kind of stuff, and honestly I can understand Aendar getting mad at ppl still posting cr*p after he asked them in a friendly way to stop it.
My suggestion: Instead of bashing ppl for their misbehaviour just ignore them, they\'ll stop by themselves if they get no replies. It\'s hard to have an argument with yourself, you know... ever tried it? (I did, drove me nuts... )

If you have any complaints then bring them to me and I will deal with them then. I\'m not sure how the report button works but I have never received a single report on it about spam or other issues people seem to have.

In most forums the mod receives a message (PM or similar) that user xyz reported thread abc as abusive or similar. Nothing more.

PS: At the time of writing I wasn\'t that sober anymore, so if you find any spelling or grammar mistakes, you can keep them. Nevertheless, this still is my honest opinion.

[Maxximus]

I posted a rule in the rule thread as follows:

Rule: If you do not like what is being posted in a guild\'s forum thread, stop reading it and move on. Non-guild members do not have the right to regulate what is posted in a guild\'s forum as long as it doesn\'t violate decent standards for the entire board; two-sided discussions, spam - whatever the clan permits shall be the one and only rule.
-----
The moderator\'s intentions for this rules thread are wholesome and good. But, a lot of nonsense has already been posted in here. Therefore, it\'s not going to work. How could anyone think he or she has the right to determine content of another guild\'s forum, haha. It\'s laughable that some do, but kind of scary. Go censor your own guild forum and stop whining about mine. If you don\'t like what I write stop reading it.
_________________________________

This prompted some comments. I\'ve written my own comments following each one:

Andrew the Programmer (acraig): If you are a serious guild then you should have your own forums set up. These forums should be for those that want to advertise or make annoucements ( ie Guild War announced, New famous member added etc ). Or for guilds looking for help in setting a site up. Other stuff should be on their own guild sites forums.

Ok, cool. That\'s not how it has worked so far, but let\'s try it. However, the downside of this rule is contained in the next comment by Dameon.

Dameon: It is a bit cumbersum, however, if you have to go to every single guild forum to talk to them.

Yup. We won\'t get the kind of traffic coming to our own sites that we get here. Having all the guilds who want a thread here is nice and easy. Bloodclaw Inc. gets a fair number of vistors to our own public forums but it\'s nothing compared to what we get right here.

Axsyrus: Isn\'t this exactly why most of the guild forums have Guest rooms or other forums made for people outside the guild..?

Again, we won\'t get the same traffic. Worse, the sense of community that the guild forums make possible would be lost if people are forced to go hither and yon to read up on the latest news. Despite all the alleged spam (a highly subjective definition is being used for this word, btw), the \"useless\" postings, and all the other things  relatively few people are complaining about, the Guilds section provides lots of good info to new and seasoned players. And, it\'s all right here in one place. It\'s like someone invented a near-perfect system where every clan, big or small, gets an equal opportunity to speak to the PlaneShift community.

I know how annoying some people can be with their posts. But consider this: when an airhead barges into your guild forum and fires off an idiotic reply to something, it\'s like he\'s hold up a sign with his IQ on it. This is valuable information to newcomers and people who are looking to join another guild. Another benefit is the entertainment opportunities these guys provide. I\'ve had a lot of fun outwitting some of them - it\'s really shameful how dumb they can be.

I don\'t want the Guild forums to dry up and blow away. There\'s too much good here just as they are. But, if you try to regulate what people can say, these forums will become like ghost towns. How useless. Like it says in my profound rule above, if you don\'t like it, don\'t read it. Honestly, I can\'t understand why people who are offended by the things they read in my guild\'s forum would bother to complain: get the hell outta there! lol. You know what I\'m saying? No one wants you there so leave. Am I missing something? I am American, a country with more idiots per square mile than any other country, but I\'m not one of them! I actually read books that don\'t say Program Manual on the cover. Help me out, people. Why do some of you get pissed off when a forum post bothers you instead of simply clicking the NEXT link? I am not trying to be an ass here, serious.

Here\'s my rule one more time, then I will be quiet:

Rule: If you do not like what is being posted in a guild\'s forum thread, stop reading it and move on. Non-guild members do not have the right to regulate what is posted in a guild\'s forum as long as it doesn\'t violate decency standards for the entire board; two-sided discussions, spam - whatever the clan permits shall be the one and only rule.

I edited the word decent to decency, that\'s what I meant.

PS: I am glad Pogo thinks the same way drunk and sober. Gotta respect that!  

[Moogie]

Maxximus: If only everyone thought like you, this wouldn\'t be happening in the first place. Unfortunately, it\'s a utopian ideal, and I can\'t see it ever happening. People will always respond, even if they know they shouldn\'t (hello Axsyrus remember yesterday? hehe).

[Maxximus]

Mogura,

If it\'s true that people won\'t ever think like me,  ;( , than we can go another route:

Instead of guild forums that are really just threads, Planeshift3d.com should create real subforums for all guilds (with some kind of minimum qualification requirement for size or \"seriousness\" as a guild...this can be worked out). Each guild can have mod rights in that forum. Posts they don\'t like can deleted. Behavior they don\'t permit can be limited to almost nothing this way. The only rules imposed on each guild by the board administration would be the general rules that all posters on this system must follow, like no racist crap, etc.

I am the administrator for three gaming forums. I am aware of the extra work that users can create for you folks and I recognize that you\'re trying to keep people happy while being fair to all. The solution I propose can go do that for you by making the guilds responsible for what happens or doesn\'t happen in their forums. It takes a small amount of time and effort to set up the software to accommodate new subcategories, then you\'re done. This is the best solution and it doesn\'t cost anyone anything, except an admin who must create the new forums. Guild leaders will be the guild forum mods with the ability to assign others to help out.

What do think about that?  )

[Monketh]

Originally posted by Maxximus
What do think about that?  )

Not a bad idea.

Sounds like government health insurance, nobody knows how it will work out.
Sure it works well some places, but other places it just simply can\'t happen.

I\'m content with seperate guild forums, but I sure ain\'t stoppin\' ya.

(Although, as for how likely it is, I doubt it will occur. )

[SnowWolf]

More forums will not help anything - if the people don\'t change then the only way to fix the \"problem\" is to censor everything and no one wants that...

[acraig]

Hmm, the problems I have with that idea is

a) We don\'t want to be a hoster for forums,  your guild should have it\'s own hoster.  
b) We will get many more requests for special customizations that we just cannot handle
c) We will get accused of \'favouritism\' when we create a forum for one guild and not for another.

[Draklar]

this is somewhat going wrong way...
the problem is that some people post complete useless stuff that hmm... lack in inteligence...
so why not just use this thing about reporting someone that spams too much, he\'s warned and if that won\'t work, he\'s out. (so far those reports were ignored... at least from what I\'ve seen).

[Vengeance]

The issue isn\'t \"manpower\" of the mods or how time-consuming it is.  The issue is that there is no agreement on what should be closed/deleted/banned.

We have had 20 posts in this thread about rules, none of which are a serious attempt to come up with new spam definitions.

Everyone agrees that this forum sucks, but that is not the mods\' fault, and the forum can\'t be fixed by modding more.  If you disagree, post what you would do differently and prove me wrong.

[AendarCallenlasse]

Well spam is a hard thing to define...

-Anything that goes severely off-topic in a thread is spam.  Sure there may be side-comments or a joke or two thrown in, but that\'s not too far oof-topic.

-Any thread that is started that is obvious spam should be deleted right away, however a \"spam thread\" is harder to define...but I think most people will agree that if the topic is pointless and absolutely moronic it is spam.  Or if the topic hasn\'t already been brought up recently in a neighboring thread it can be considered spam.  For an example look at any thread Whemy has started.

Personally I don\'t think a person should get a warning.  Everyone here knows what spam is and knows that it shouldbn\'t be done.  When they realize that their posts get deleted every time they spam they will learn to quit spamming.

[Maxximus]

Annah, good luck with the operation.

Andrew wrote:
Hmm, the problems I have with that idea is

a) We don\'t want to be a hoster for forums, your guild should have it\'s own hoster.
b) We will get many more requests for special customizations that we just cannot handle
c) We will get accused of \'favouritism\' when we create a forum for one guild and not for another.

Point a): Most guilds do have their own forum but more people check out the forums here and it\'s very convenient to have all of them in one place. It builds a greater sense of community, too. Why not host forums? There is no cost, is there? Planeshift doesn\'t compensate testers in any material way so why not provide free forums when it costs nothing?

Point b): I can\'t think of many special customizations that people would ask for and realistically expect to get. That does not mean they won\'t ask for them. It doesn\'t mean they will get them, either. Just say, no. What is being proposed by the Adminsitration of the Board is an extraordinary change in the way the Guild section has worked (and worked well) up until now. Realatively few people have complained about \"problems\" that the vast majority of users here don\'t want \"fixed\" because the don\'t view them as problems. Draklar makes a brilliant point when he says use the Report button. Definitely. If the Board administration won\'t create real forums for the guilds then let\'s start using the system that\'s already in place to deal with abusive posting.

Point c): No doubt! If a few people can squeak loud enough to get you to sweep away the Guild forums as we know them, they will have no ethical problem with complaining when you won\'t grant them a guild forum. However, if the guild making the request doesn\'t have a website and 5 members you can say no, and that\'s totally fair. Let those two requirements be the minimum. Simple enough, eh?

SnowWolf doesn\'t want censorship. I agree. But censorship is what we\'ll get if the Board Admins must attend to every complaint and problem in the Guild forums. They don\'t want to do this so their first impulse is to limit posting to announcements only. That won\'t solve the problems, but I understand why they think it will. My proposal, on the otherhand, puts responsibility for content in indivdual forums with the Guild leaders, where it should be. There is no reason why any non-guild posters should be able to censor what is posted in a guild forum...no ethical reason, anyway. These complainers need to attend to their own affairs, not mine and yours. They don\'t have to read posts in my forum if they don\'t want to, and that is the bottom line, that is the whole thrust of what I\'m trying to say here.

Axsyrus says: Really, that\'s just like giving every guild it\'s own forums on the planeshift server.. Ahh, no it is giving them a forum. That\'s what I want to happen. That would take the responsibility for what happens in them off the the Board Administration who are doing a good job with a small but overworked staff. Axsyrus does not think there could be a lose of community if the Guild section is fundamentally changed because, I assume from what he wrote, Arcane Order gets a lot of traffic from players not in his guild. Well, I just took a look at the AO forum and it\'s mostly members posting and a small number of others, usually the same people. You know who won\'t look at AO\'s website pub forum? New players, folks checking out Planeshift for the first time, and long-time players who don\'t care what AO is up to (and people who can\'t read black type on a purple background! lol). The first place I looked on the Board when I was considering playing Planeshift was the Gen Discussion, then I check out the Guild forums. I spent a long time in there reading every guild\'s posts. I learned a lot that way. That would never have happened if I had to go to 20 different urls.

I\'ve always tried to be an advocate for Planeshift in my short time playing, not just build up my own guild and worry about my own little part in this open project. Otherwise, I\'d never be in here writing blog-length posts trying to explain why changing the Guild forums is penny-wise and pound-foolish. However, some of the squeakiest wheels that complained about \"spam\" posts don\'t do jack squat. In fact, they are real turn offs to potential players. Some of them don\'t even play, just hang around the forums all day and complain. It doesn\'t seem fair that they get accommodated when something basically good has to be lost to do it.

I\'m losing my desire to be polite now so I\'ll stop blogging here.

[AendarCallenlasse]

However, some of the squeakiest wheels that complained about \"spam\" posts don\'t do jack squat. In fact, they are real turn offs to potential players. Some of them don\'t even play, just hang around the forums all day and complain. It doesn\'t seem fair that they get accommodated when something basically good has to be lost to do it.

First of all not everyone at PS can play.  Remember the state PS is in at the moment permits only a select few computers to allow it to run.

Second of all the game itself has nothing to do with this discussion.  The discussion has to do with the forums, therefore the people that are around the forums the most are the most qualified people to complain and suggest ideas.[/COLOR]

[Davis]

If it ain\'t broke, don\'t fix it. CHanges could make the forums better, but they could also make it worse. If there\'s nothing wrong, it\'s best just to be satisfied with that. You can keep whining, I can\'t change that, but you should know that it\'s stupid.

[Deddarus]

my definition of spam (and yes i know im stating my own guilt here)

*A thread that does not have the sole purpose of reporting an item of guild news

*A reply that does not respond to the original topic being discussed

*A reply made solely to insult somebody personally

*A reply/thread that is solely a repetition of a previously stated item/idea (not nescessarily word for word) that can be located easily or is well known to the forum populace