A Proposal Concerning the Balance of Magic and Weapons

[louscroo]

Blows from weapons should interrupt spell-casting under the following conditions:
1) The attack is either blocked or hits (with and without damage),
2) Does not miss or is not dodged,
3) The interruption is based on chance derived from the weapon skill level of the attacker against the Magic Way skill level of the caster (a constant percentage plus/minus the percentage difference in skill)

Discuss and vote on the above proposal. Maybe we can get it to be implemented for a trial period. Consider both the RP-relevance as well as the mechanical balance.

[MishkaL1138]

Hi, my name is MishkaL1138 and I approve of this idea.

[Phantomboy86]

You already know my feelings about it, Fine with it, long as magic gets some form of CC in return. (Makes it just as balanced, magic interrupts melee, melee interrupts magic. Though im probably describing it in a way only I understand that will just cause further argument. \o/

[Gilrond]

I agree, as well as with Phantomboy86. Magic attack can interrupt physical one, and vice versa. However I'd propose first to focus on missing components, such as defense against magical attacks (defensive spells, antimagic etc.). Those are totally lacking atm.

[louscroo]

I agree, as well as with Phantomboy86. Magic attack can interrupt physical one, and vice versa. However I'd propose first to focus on missing components, such as defense against magical attacks (defensive spells, antimagic etc.). Those are totally lacking atm.

I feel like spell interruption will serve as a defense through offense sort of deal. And also, magic has its advantage through pretty much unhindered chain-damaging. Spell failures are few and far between, and the damage done from saving throws and whatnot still do more damage than weapons are generally able to.

[bilbous]

so what you are suggesting is that mages should be relegated to impenetrable towers where they cannot be attacked and Tank mages are verboten. If you want to make it fair then make weapon attacks take as long as spell casting or make spells no slower than weapons. Realm one could be dagger speed Realm five could be claymore speed. Then you have to allow spell casters to cast spells with both hands i.e two spells in one round subject to cast time.

[Gilrond]

I feel like spell interruption will serve as a defense through offense sort of deal.

No, unless you have good ranged skills and use a bow to interrupt some spell. Ranged spells will deal huge damage from the distance, a disadvantage for those who can't defend from them just using their armor and shield. Therefore defensive spells / antimagic / magic resistance etc. are really needed to balance the combat.

And also, magic has its advantage through pretty much unhindered chain-damaging.

Not more than chain damaging with weapons. You can't cast two spells at a time. Weapons have delays, casting spells as well. The only difference - there are lot's of different high damage ranged spells, while there is only a bow now to counteract that factor.

[Gilrond]

so what you are suggesting is that mages should be relegated to impenetrable towers where they cannot be attacked and Tank mages are verboten.

There 2 missing factors - 1. magic and elemental resistance & antimagic 2. defensive spells.

First can be a natural trait of some race, an effect achieved with potions, or artifacts. Second are spells as any others, learned with skill, but targeted specifically for defending against magical / mind / elemental attacks. Consider also special kind of "dispel" antimagic effects, that can remove magic buffs, disrupt area spells etc. Those effects can be also area related (natural magic drain in some areas), again achieved through alchemy and so on. There is a lot of room for giving flexible mechanisms for using various offensive and defensive tactics. So far magic is restricted to purely offensive (with no armor defense against it), and purely physically defensive (i.e against weapons), so non mages are clearly at the disadvantage atm.
 

[Tessra]

I strongly agree that this should be considered.     Even the duelling considerations aside, magic is supposed to take concentration though the glyphs.  Concentration would be disrupted by a physical attack... unless the mage is some manner of Zen-Force-Master.  I don't think every hit should automatically disrupt the spell, but I think it's a fair consideration that a weapon striking shouldn't be dodged/blocked at the same time as a spell is being cast.  Conversely, a spell should never fail if the victim is using a weapon.  They simply would both be vulnerable in that situation. 

I'm sure some of you programming geniuses could come up with a formula that takes into consideration weapon/armor/magic/base stats to determine the percentages of what should or shouldn't hit.  Obviously realm 1 would be less likely to be able to continue casting against a physical assault.  Realm 5+ probably would have some resistance, lower damage perhaps?

I don't want to see melee grossly overpower magic, but I would like to see some manner of balance here as well.

[Caraick]

I agree largely with what Lou's put up.  It's simply unrealistic that one could continue casting a spell when being shanked in the side, or having to block a sword slash.  This is already even partially implemented.  When a caster moves at a run, he or she will almost always fail at casting the spell that they're in the middle of preparing.  In essence, this is exactly what's being talked about here.  Even more so if damage is being taken. For those of us who've grinded magic levels in unison with armor levels by standing in the middle of a group of mobs to spam cast, this doesn't bode too well, though 

I'll also second what Trav and Tessra have put up here.  The same should be applied to the melee fighter.  If you're being slapped across the face with a fist of lava, you're certainly not in any frame of mind to be slashing a weapon of someone.  Think of weapon attacks as having the same sort of progress bar that spells have currently. This bar isn't shown, for obvious reasons, but if one were to be hit with a spell, it would be easy enough to simply cancel that attack cycle, as would a spell.

[Bonifarzia]

It is nice to see this discussion revived with a new topic.
This task on flyspray might be an interesting read in that context. Even though I opened it more than a year ago and some things did change in the meanwhile, I think these points all still hold true. Also note Rly's comment that the functionality to interrupt spells with physical attacks actually seems intended by design and functional, but hardly ever triggers because it requires a certain amount of damage dealt. This damage is however impossible to inflict if the target has high end armor skills and the defense factor of full defensive stance while casting spells.

[Pakarro]

If you see things from an ic perspective, the whole story is less mage friendly. Typically, a mage has no reasonable strength and can be one- or two-hit by almost all stronger mobs.

The alternative would be to run around in heavy armor - ohno, too weak. And, excessively ooc. So, I'm casting and running like hell, hoping I don't trip over a plant or stone. And, the famous sleep is not available, because my character does not like carrying around severed hands...

Just my two tria to show the other side of the argument...



PS. Pakerl is a rather low-grade Dermorian around 150 hours in game(?), lots of quests, str 70, end 80, int 106, will 110, (max red way 20, crystal 18)

 

[Tzarhunt]

Will is supposed to let you 'continue fighting [despite] being wounded', and is referred to as concentration by Azure high mages NPCs. As such, I think the ability to keep casting while walking / dodging should be proportionate on the Will stat.

Now that stats have been made longer to train, why not give mental ones an more important role?

(And yes, please work on anti-magic soon, the whole pvp (and pvu, for player vs ulbernauts) side of the game is a big joke right now)


Extending this idea, we see characters waving their hands and moving their lips while casting; shouldn't holding a weapon (other than a wand) lower the odds of a successful casting? Can we reasonably think that high-ranker mages don't need the gestures (and potentially noisy incantations) anymore, at least for spells under their current realm?

[Phantomboy86]

Consider both the RP-relevance as well as the mechanical balance.

Oh yeah, forgot to be annoying and give my nickle about that too. Any RP'ed mage not having his spell be interrupted, or at the least be wildly shot off not as intended after being shived particularly hard, should hang up his glyph sack now.

I'll also second what Trav and Tessra have put up here.  The same should be applied to the melee fighter.  If you're being slapped across the face with a fist of lava, you're certainly not in any frame of mind to be slashing a weapon of someone.  Think of weapon attacks as having the same sort of progress bar that spells have currently. This bar isn't shown, for obvious reasons, but if one were to be hit with a spell, it would be easy enough to simply cancel that attack cycle, as would a spell.

You misunderstood me, I did not mean all magical attacks should have the ability to cancel out a melee attack. (this would be of no difference anyways, since cancelling a melee attack doesnt do much when most swings take about one second) I meant CROWD CONTROL (CC in gamertalk) spells specifically, like the Snare (Ill explain for those who don't know what CC means prolly dont know what a snare is either, Forcing someone to stop moving, without forcing them to be shut down entirely. (That would be a stun, whereas as Silence is the opposite of that, shutting down magic without shutting down movement or melee))  I know Claws Vortex is supposed to be a snare, Tuux said as much in a meet the devs.

Specific spells like that should be given the power, because even though it is realistic that a gigantic block of stone to your damned face will stop a swing, it'd also make it terribly imbalanced on the faster spells.

[Talad]

At the moment spell casting is already interrupted. The interruption happens if the amount of damages dealt in a blow is equal or greater than 30% of max HP of the victim. We can tweak this value. Please note that the poll is about stopping spell casting with ANY AMOUNT of damage, even 1 hp. Does a 1 hp make a difference if you have 1000HP in your concentration?