Why Not Have Classes? And Other Things

[Volki]

This isn't in the wishlist because I'm not sure about it, and I'd like to hear others' opinions.

So, Talad doesn't like the idea of classes. He says they are constraining. I agree with that, but I think they could still be incorporated into the game. Right now, training skills is nebulous. You aren't sure which skills you should have for the character you want. You aren't sure which NPCs to train with. There are no official trainers (they are mostly guards?) and no official gyms/dojos/etc. to train in. For a society that places so much importance on combat, the neglect of organized martial arts is unbelievable.

I suggest that we do have classes. There should be schools for classes, similar to how players have to go through quests to achieve Way mastery, but more organized. Maybe with a physical school, even, where trainers can be found and players can practice (rank up) with other students and dummies. I think it would make training combat easier and reflect reality more closely.

The school could offer many different skills. And that's when you choose your future skillset (class). You could ask an NPC about the classes, and he/she would tell you their specialties, which you could then focus on to become a master in that class. It would be interesting if NPCs could detect the ratio of your skills (if they were high enough) and then address you by that title. Like "Good day, Nostromo the Battlemage!" (Sounds dorky, but people like being special.) Of course, you'd have to account for the differences between classes so you could correctly identify a character. A spellsword is not the same as a battlemage. An archer is not always a ranger. And it would be strange if you had a character with a Sword rank of 180 and an Axe level of 150, and although he consistently used both he was always determined to be a swordsman by NPCs. So I think it would be simpler to have a trainer NPC ask a player, "What is your specialty?" and the player could choose, then leave it as that until he wished to change it. All NPCs would then address the player as the chosen class (given the player was qualified).

Also, not all schools would have to be combat-oriented. Just as there are cooking schools, music schools, and even colleges in the real world. I couldn't believe Aleena was offering herbalism training when it was implemented. It's so out of character.

I know this seems complicated, but I think it would be great for immersion. And I think new players would appreciate it, as it would help guide their training. Personally, I think players who have mastered skills (at rank 200) should be able to offer apprenticeship to lower level players, but somehow I doubt the developers would like that. So I came up with something completely different.

[LigH]

There was already an idea to balance "classes" by defining a maximum for a sum of stats or skills. But I don't remember the progress of that discussion... This attempt may be a technical base for your idea, I guess.

[Volki]

LigH, that is irrelevant. This isn't about restricting players. It's about making training more interesting.

(No more posts about restricting skills. Discuss my idea, add to it, whatever. Talad obviously isn't into restricting, so there's no point arguing about it.)

[Taya]

I don't know if a conversation about classes is possible without talking about ability restrictions though. Even if the talk is about how to avoid them.

I have always liked the idea of being able to offer some kind of training or apprenticeship to other players once you are high enough in a skill though (considering you are full master in a way at 150, I would think around 180 or 185 might be more appropriate - the final stages of official training then linking into the idea of the master demonstrating such an in depth understanding that they are able to pass on their skills to others.)

As for schools as such, I think for combat training the arena is meant to serve this role to an extent - there were already dummies last time I checked; however, the arena still isn't complete so probably doesn't reflect this as well as it should yet. I'd still like to see more interaction with NPCs that give the impression of actually 'learning' from them.

[Volki]

I don't know if a conversation about classes is possible without talking about ability restrictions though. Even if the talk is about how to avoid them.

Can you explain how it might not be possible? Seems like most players want restrictions, but Talad says no... I am only using the word to mean profession, or what you are qualified to be. Since that is what a class really is.

As for schools as such, I think for combat training the arena is meant to serve this role to an extent

Then there should be trainers present. I wasn't speaking about a physical school exactly (except where explicitly stated). Not all schools are physical places. Maybe this is lost in translation. I mean that there should be an organized body of professional trainers who will provide lessons and potentially places to train.

[Tumaini]

I think this is an excellent idea, both for immersion, increasing chances for roleplay and for giving newer players a sense of direction.

[Taya]

I don't know if a conversation about classes is possible without talking about ability restrictions though. Even if the talk is about how to avoid them.

Can you explain how it might not be possible? Seems like most players want restrictions, but Talad says no... I am only using the word to mean profession, or what you are qualified to be. Since that is what a class really is.

In most games (and this is a game, no matter that it is for RP as well) 'class' is linked to the idea of a set of abilities. You admitted yourself that classes can be constraining, even if you don't think they 'have to' be. But I would say class is a different thing from an RPed profession, so if what you mean is a way to make professions make more sense and be more relevant, then sure, we shouldn't need to worry about restrictions, as it's entirely possible for someone to have a skill without it being their profession and having a profession doesn't mean you can't have other skills. It just might be better to call it profession instead since class can be read as purely a game mechanic thing that does tend to bring restrictions. (I hate restrictions via mechanics but fully support them in RP, because no one should be able to RP that they are maxed everything. It's just silly.)

As for schools as such, I think for combat training the arena is meant to serve this role to an extent

Then there should be trainers present. I wasn't speaking about a physical school exactly (except where explicitly stated). Not all schools are physical places. Maybe this is lost in translation. I mean that there should be an organized body of professional trainers who will provide lessons and potentially places to train.

Maybe something is lost in translation as you put it, but as far as I see, my point still stands, since I am not really talking about 'arena as physical place to go and bash things' but rather 'arena as focal point for settings relating to combat learning and development.'

It's still a case of working out exactly what is needed though.

[Volki]

A class isn't a profession. There really isn't another word for it. I am saying that a class can be something a player can choose to be, not something that defines the player. You don't have to have a class if you don't want to. And having a class does not mean you are limited to the skills required by that class. In other games, players can be constrained by classes. Here, I think it could be used to guide players toward their goals.

You ask a trainer, "What should I learn so I can be a ___?" The trainer gives you a list of skills and might direct you to the NPC that trains those skills.

About the Arena... I don't understand why people think it is a place for training. Arenas are for sports. That's why there are seats for spectators looking into each pit. Those are for people to watch fights. Which is why it's strange that there is a pit specifically for training, with those three dummies. Has nobody questioned this? Maybe the beta-ness of this game frees it from common sense.

[bilbous]

So the gladiator slaves of ancient days trained somewhere other than the arena where they were penned? Sure there were houses that had their own training rings on their estates where they put on minor spectacles for the locals while deciding which to take to the big show. Do sports teams train in their facilities?

* bilbous has plenty of class, all of it low!

[Volki]

So the gladiator slaves of ancient days trained somewhere other than the arena where they were penned?

As I remember it, keeping the arena clean was an issue. And if they were professional gladiators, they would train under an expert of some style/class (just like my idea, guys!). They would need to transport equipment for training many gladiators. So... Why would they train in an arena? How does that make sense?

[Taya]

Just because some things aren't finished in game yet doesn't mean they won't get finished and doesn't mean they won't be explained. But let's go with what you say, and I suppose the arena sits there as some kind of petting zoo for creatures while in between tournaments? I mean, it's such a large space so it would make no sense for it not to be used. Maybe it could be rented out for dinner parties? I don't know. I like the petting zoo idea either way. Really. Arangmas are cute.

But since we're all apparently getting it all wrong, maybe give some specific examples of what you'd like to see?

[Volki]

You talking to me? I think an arena should be an arena. Think I stated something about the beta-ness. So, it really doesn't matter right now, and it's not relevant to the topic.

[Noobstorm]

I feel that classes are necessary in this game because, as an example, it appears that many strive towards being a master of both combat and magic. I think this game would be much more immersive if we had set specializations of some sort, rather than being presented with the possibility of being a master of everything.

[Rigwyn]

Correct me if I am wrong, but you are saying that a "class" is much like an association? If I want to become a badass swordsman, I would join the "Swordsman' Association" or "Swordsman's Class" and get direction from them on how to train and so on?

If this is the case, then we already have these. They are called guilds.

From an IC perspective, guilds are not supposed to be random groupings of friends or even worse - groups of players. They are supposed to be actual organizations that have an in-character purpose and need. An example would be a baker's guild, or crafter's guild. I think the Way of the Hammer and Explorers are probably two of the most relevant guilds in Planeshift at the moment.

[Taya]

But Volki, they are not holding tornaments all that time and they need to ultilise the space somehow. You do realise that by settings there is quite limited space in the world? Therefore if there is no training taking place in the arena as you say there shouold not be, what does go on there? It is a real question and you're not answering.

The beta-ness as you term it is very relevant; it's the reason the game doesn't answer your questions yet. Why ask those questions if they are not relevant?

I was interested in hearing more, since there might have been something here that would influence work I am doing on the game, but given the rudeness and how you are still not providing actual examples of the type of change you would like for this,  I'll give up on finding something helpful here for now.