RP Not Required?

[Rigwyn]

Tldr

Conformity kills creativity. Pull the stick out of thine ass and get back roleplaying off the seat of your pants. All hail great Cthulhu, God of chaos!

[MishkaL1138]

Tldr

Conformity kills creativity. Pull the stick out of thine ass and get back roleplaying off the seat of your pants. All hail great Cthulhu, God of chaos!

That would be something worth paying attention to if it hadn't been said by someone who only lurks in some forgotten forums for an indie roleplaying game. When you can give example, you may tell us to emulate it. I appreciate you and I know you're a great roleplayer, but as long as you're out of the scene RP-wise, I'm afraid I'd rather take someone else's advice.

[Rigwyn]

Don't judge the message by the messenger. Judge the message.

[Rigwyn]

As for being a good role player, I'm average at best. I had fun spewing my ideas into the game and seeing what would happen. Some lead to interesting RP while some flopped.

Some folks exert their will and give ides while some folks perceive and enjoy. Perception and will are one and the same, just different sides of the same coin.. We need both sides of the coin. Chaos is the fountain from which these ides flow.


What is a god but man weilding the force of chaos? To him, nothing is true; everything is permitted. - Peter J.Carroll, Liber Null

[Dilihin]

Don't judge the message by the messenger. Judge the message.

Frankly, most important part of the message is the messenger itself.

[Dilihin]

Before you guys go saying who is a good roleplayer and who is not, tell me tho, what does exactly separate average and good roleplayer? how about bad and average roleplayer?

[Volki]

Conformity kills creativity. Pull the stick out of thine ass and get back roleplaying off the seat of your pants.

I'm probably missing something here, but I don't know what you mean by this.

what does exactly separate average and good roleplayer? how about bad and average roleplayer?

This thread is more focused on non-roleplayers versus roleplayers. As long as you're playing the role of a character, you're doing the bare minimum. Following the general rules of roleplay (e.g. not godmoding, powerplaying, metagaming), you're a good roleplayer. If you're encouraging roleplay, better than good.

As long as I no longer have to pretend there are bands of the mentally retarded and the occasional schizophrenic roaming the dome, shouting "lol" and talking about mechanics in main, I'll be able to immerse myself.

[Can-ned Food]

Regarding Gonger's comments: 
I think it is helpful to not look at things in terms of “RP” and “non-RP”, but at the concept of the world boundaries.  Users on the one side, and performers a.k.a. player–characters on the other.  When a user seeks immersion in a role, they usually seek to ignore the fourth wall of the simulation, yes, but more than that:  they seek to guide their performer with behaviors that ignore the nature of that relationship. 
When you hear someone yell out, “Hey, isn't this a fun game!?”, it might help if you interpret that more like

• ‘What game?  We aren't playing a game right now.’
• ‘Silly person — thinking life is a game.  Get a job!’

rather than

• Would you please cease disturbing my immersion?!

Of course, that doesn't mean you can't design the engine so that different groups of users can segregate themselves for the sake of playstyles.  Deciding exactly how that is best done can be convoluted, however …

Volki, I don't think you actually understood what I was saying.  I genuinely think that you should look at it again.  Maybe, if you haven't already, do some research on the GNS or GDS models of roleplay: 

• https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Threefold_Model
• https://wikipedia.org/wiki/GNS_theory

Yes, I agree that certain artistic media are better suited to certain forms of creation.  Literal forms are good for narrating stories, et c.  I make a distinction between a ‘story’ and a ‘narration’, however.

I know I've said this already, but:  If something shouldn't be possible in a world, then the engine — a.k.a. the mechanisms of that world — should not permit it. 
Jumping atop the Laanx statue should be dangerous:  surfaces should be slippery.  It should also risk arrest by guards for your disturbing of the peace — and it shouldn't be a trivial matter to outrun them.  Jumping from rooftops to evade pursuit — Aladdin did it in 1992.  Maybe Enkidukai should be able to do such things more deftly.

So, that's why I don't play anymore.  Too much fundamental disagreement; too few other users support my style of RP. 
Maybe when the UE4 is released we'll get an infusion of new users who are more amenable to such RP, but just as likely there will be a flood of tweakers and toolers.

Maybe someone else knows what I am saying, and can give me a better way to say it so that it can be understood?

And, anyways, the nature of the messenger only matters both for what is imparted to the message and for any reliances by either source or recipient.  Don't let a disliked messenger prevent you from bettering yourself — but, whatever.

[gonger]

Can-ned Food, you have some interesting views on RP there. I will do some reading and thinking.
But I still believe the distinction RPers and non-RPers is crucial: If there were only RPers, there would be no need for such a discussion.
Ceterum censeo, better convince than enforce.

[Can-ned Food]

Yes, I was thinking about what I said, and I recognized that I failed to talk on how many people who cross the boundary will be a disruption on those that don't, regardless of how the RPer responds to it.  That's when we get into the various forms of that boundary and how the simulation is presented to multiple users.

• Acknowledge the users. 
  This is, of course, a settings thing.  A Tron or Neuromancer MMOG would have fewer problems there.  It also doesn't tell us how to handle users who are purposefully disruptive.
• Use systematic oppression. 
  This one sounds atrocious, but it simply means that you monitor user actions and either restrict or police those which attempt to disrupt the boundary between user identity and player-character.  The concern here is less for disruption of other users' immersion than it is to curtail cheating, though.  …
• Segregating the players. 
  Most already do something like this by offering multiple servers.  That is only one of a few ways to ensure a certain ambience in the simulated environment, though.
• Fortify the “mechanics” so as to necessitate RP. 
  What?  Yes, that's right.  Modelling hunger, fatigue, injury, and communications in the simulation makes it more difficult for someone to behave as though they didn't need to be concerned with those things.  Heck, that's almost how it happens in our world … 
  Having no chat channels and making shouts difficult to hear at distances more than 300 yards doesn't prevent people from treating the environment as if it were a mere spectacle, but it all could presumably help to limit their ability to bother others. 
  If there are not too many, that is.

Less of these measures are draconian enforcement on the unwilling than they appear.  One of the core principles of RP design is to only permit groups which all agree as to the nature of that RP.  In MMOGs, this is not so simple; even allowing users to customize the nature of the permissible RP, and then limiting their interactions to others who've selected the same profile of environment, doesn't protect the sanctity of that environment, and the consequent experience, from lapses or from sabotauge. 
You've got the engine for the purposes of supporting the RP; use it to that effect.  Remember that a computer–based RPG, to varying degrees, can and often does employ a non-human acting as the GM:  the engine itself.
Rather than require the user to remember to eat every few hours, why not model hunger and inform them when their avatar requires food?  If you don't want to do that, then don't be surprised when someone goes all day and doesnt eat a bite.

The convincing should occur prior to a user's entry into the environment; if it happens later, then something went wrong long before.

[Volki]

Volki, I don't think you actually understood what I was saying.  I genuinely think that you should look at it again.  Maybe, if you haven't already, do some research on the GNS or GDS models of roleplay: 

• https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Threefold_Model
• https://wikipedia.org/wiki/GNS_theory

In the language of the models you've brought up, we're talking about players who recognize game, simulation, and drama versus players who only recognize the game element. PlaneShift is meant to focus on all three. I don't play just for drama and simulation. I want the game to totally integrate roleplay.

I'm not sure how these models are helpful in this discussion, though. We've already established that there are players who have no interest in roleplay. Some of them don't seem intellectually capable of understanding what roleplay even is.

I know I've said this already, but:  If something shouldn't be possible in a world, then the engine — a.k.a. the mechanisms of that world — should not permit it. 

If only this game wasn't in perpetual alpha. I agree, and there are numerous things I've not done in the game because I've read the lore and realized that, even if mechanics permit something, it's not meant to be possible.

So, that's why I don't play anymore.  Too much fundamental disagreement; too few other users support my style of RP.

What is your style of RP?

I wonder if any GMs have read the thread. It would be interesting to know why they've ceased punishing egregiously OOC players.

[Emaline]

I wonder if any GMs have read the thread. It would be interesting to know why they've ceased punishing egregiously OOC players.

I don't know if you guys have realized this or not...but there's only two of us who are active. We have RL jobs, and families and other obligations we like to attend to. And when we are in game we can't physically be everywhere at once. So if you see something that offends you and you've tried to send the player a tell (if you so choose) and they respond rudely, or continue the OOC behavior then please do a /report 'playername' and we will talk to them. If we don't see it or know it's happening we can't do anything about it.

[Geoni]

There have been people not being in character throughout the entire time I've played Planeshift if I remember correctly. As much as I'd like to see everyone be in character a lot of people play for the questing and other things, and it can't really be moderated unless you have like 10 GMs online and watching things like a hawk. So it'll always be a thing.

Personally when I see somebody running around on Geoni I just have him move out of their way and sometimes comment on how 'people are too rushed in this city' or something similar when it happens. 

[Damola]

Hi there.

This is an interesting thread. You, who participated in it, said lots already.

In generally I agree with Gonger´s notion of encouraging, being a positive example and using friendly tells to educate.

I don´t really agree with strong policing of any non-conforming action for pretty much the same reasons than I don´t really agree having two servers: Do you see the player statistic graphs for the server? I don´t think its wise to afford splitting the player community. I rather have 20 players on one server than 10 players on each of two servers. And I also would not like when a GM enforces conformity in a rude way. It would only leave to players leaving.

Yet, I read the argument in there, that if RP was enforced more strictly… there would be more players. I only know this server. I don´t know how it was before. But with that lack of background such a statement for me is speculation.

Also I do get that only two GMs can only do so much. Emaline and Uadjet are doing a *remarkable* job. I do not remember a time of this many GM hosted events in such a short time *ever* since I am playing. And I think this deserves a huge, big and fat
*Thank you!*. So I ask: If you want GMs to help you to encourage RP… help them to do their job, by pointing them to places and situations where players completely ignore it. They can´t realistically be at all places at all times.

As a leader of a guild who some may judge as a non role-playing guild I do not enforce RP either, but I know meanwhile that our guild have some players who really enjoy role playing and encourage it… including myself. However I would never kick a player out of a guild cause he or she wouldn´t like to RP and chooses to enjoy PlaneShift in a different way. And certainly not for still learning on how to RP and making mistakes during doing so. That said, I think members of our guild do not disturb RP anywhere. If you see one doing so, feel free to leave me a note and I promise to talk with that member when I happen to be online at the same time.

That all written: I am still leaning on how to RP and there is a limit of the immersion I seem to be able to hold up to. I found that I do not enjoy playing a char which is completely opposite to what I believe in. I admire Rygwin for it… or well maybe Rygwin you are just like that in RL too, engaging in dark rituals… and sinister plans?

* Damola misses the fear-inducing mighty and cruel dark mage Rygwin. Where have you gone? Did we defeat you? Don´t you dare to face my crystal way master powers? Anf whom did you take with you? I miss quite a few players of that time. Sulaika, Dannae, Yenida, Estaga just a name a few.

Let me add one more point by editing this post: Just that a GM stated a rule in a forum, probably years ago, for me doesn´t mean that it is set out in stone. Each GM will have a individual notion on how to encourage, probably enforce living or at least respecting those rules.

[Rigwyn]

I couldn't agree more, Damola. Creativity seems to flourish in the absence of oppression and criticism. The player  (and GM) needs to feel free to fail as many times as it takes on their road to working their character. My criticism of fellow players (and GMs) and how they played ran contrary to this principal. It's a mistake that i hope not to repeat.

"I am still leaning on how to RP and there is a limit of the immersion I seem to be able to hold up to. I found that I do not enjoy playing a char which is completely opposite to what I believe in. "


The funny thing about this is that our characters come from within us. They are to some extent, a small facet of who and what we are even if we think that they are a complete opposite or fabrication. I found that role playing can help to reveal that which is hidden within - especially if you ask yourself ( your unconscious mind, your muse, or the universe ) to inspire you with rich symbols and ideas for your next role playing session and then just trust that it will happen.

As for Rigwyn, I've been letting him loose in real life just a bit. Not the nasty, murderous part of the character, but the anti-religious grouch who likes to dabble with the occult and shatter taboos. Perhaps one day I'll find myself with lots of time on my hands  and stick him back into the game. For now, it's fair to assume that the character has gone into reclusion and is festering with resentment as he makes preparations for something terrible.