PlaneShift
Fan Area => The Hydlaa Plaza => Topic started by: DevotedEternal on September 06, 2004, 01:24:32 am
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http://pages.infinit.net/noc/pentagon.swf
Check it out, draw your own conclusions.
!@#!$%& US government.
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Just wondering if you found it on the Steampowerd forums.
I saw this a couple of days ago, was\'nt shocked, but it did get me thinking.
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Nope, my dad sent it to me... It\'s a thinker.
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Its not mentioned in the movie, but i also noticed how the governement made a big deal about hte towers, but the never said ANYTHING about the pentagon, other than that it happen. Its like they wanted us to forget.
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Yeah, that\'s a good point. The towers overshadowed the Pentagon alot more than it probobly would have if things played out without interference.
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*ahem*
Might I point out how easy it is to form a conspiracy!
Might I point out how easy it is to fake images and video!
Everybody looks for a way to make the US Government look bad or sneaky. This is like saying Bush organized Sept. 11! (If anybody tells me that Bush organized Sept. 11 hijackings, they deserve to be shot out of stupidity. I realize that this is the internet, and it\'s possible someone is that stupid/liberally biased.)
If you do watch the video, the part where it shows Pentagon camera footage of the impact, You will see the tail of an aircraft.
Sheesh...
Edit:
Originally posted by DevotedEternal
Yeah, that\'s a good point. The towers overshadowed the Pentagon alot more than it probobly would have if things played out without interference.
Uh... Since when did the media care about the Pentagon? If the towers weren\'t hit, it would have gotten more coverage, but truthfully, the ratings weren\'t there so neither was the media.
The Military wouldn\'t make a big deal out of it anyway. They have a job to do.
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After watching that flash presentation, I did some additional research...
About that area of the Pentagon and its intact windows:
?\'It was the only area of the Pentagon with a sprinkler system, and it had been reconstructed with a web of steel columns and bars to withstand bomb blasts. The area struck by the plane also had blast-resistant windows?2 inches thick and 2,500 pounds each?that stayed intact during the crash and fire. While perhaps 4,500 people normally would have been working in the hardest-hit areas, because of the renovation work only about 800 were there?.\' More than 25,000 people work at the Pentagon. [Los Angeles Times 9/16/01 (C)]\"
Here\'s some additional info:
(http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/images/pentagonapproach.jpg)
...with all the light post it took out, its trajectory may not have allowed it to first hit the \"Pentalawn,\" but to instead fly straight into the building.
Source (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&day_of_911=aa77)
From the accounts, Flight 77 was most definitely hijacked,
but where did this plane go if not into the Pentagon?
I haven\'t heard of any other incidents that could explain the deaths of its passengers.
And why did the FBI confiscate all the videos? What is there to hide?
...bastards
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Monketh, can you show me where you see the tail? Take a screenshot and circle it if you can, please :). It\'s just that I don\'t see it.
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It was very convincing the video but..I would rather wait for actual proof outside of the internet to form my conclusion, to easy to manipulate things upon the internet. And like Monketh said form conspiracies.
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Its a hoax...
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Whenever you hear an urban legend, first check snopes.
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm
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Everybody looks for a way to make the US Government look bad or sneaky.
They are. On several occasions.
This is like saying Bush organized Sept. 11! (If anybody tells me that Bush organized Sept. 11 hijackings, they deserve to be shot out of stupidity.
No, it isn\'t like that at all. Maybe it was something other than a plane, and they did not want stir up any more fear then already existed, so they just made it look like part of the tower/plane tragedy. There are other reasons why the government would hide something other then them having actually caused what they are hiding... while the US government has it\'s issues, I have faith that nobody in it would cause such a thing.
If you do watch the video, the part where it shows Pentagon camera footage of the impact, You will see the tail of an aircraft.
Sorry, I don\'t see it. Take a screenshot like Levski suggested?
Edit:
Originally posted by DevotedEternal
Yeah, that\'s a good point. The towers overshadowed the Pentagon alot more than it probobly would have if things played out without interference.
Uh... Since when did the media care about the Pentagon? If the towers weren\'t hit, it would have gotten more coverage, but truthfully, the ratings weren\'t there so neither was the media.
The Military wouldn\'t make a big deal out of it anyway. They have a job to do.
The Pentagon is the headquarters of national defense... you\'re saying that an attack on it would not bring about alot of media attention?
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Also, how is the confiscated video footage explained? How about a 757 flying 2 feet from the ground and over a highway? What about the witnesses? Though, on the same note, you\'re right, there is no proof that any of it is true. This is, after all, the internet and is full of mistruths. Although the movie is, atleast in my opinion, interesting regardless.
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the one question that has to be asked has been asked. if flight 77 didn\'t fly into the pentagon, then where is it?
onc ethat question can be answered by the conspiracy then it stands a greater chance of with standing serious scruntiy.
beside it is easy to create conspiracies about such events. i should tell you guys sometime about the one that surrounds apollo 13... before they get to me.
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About the plane wreckage, how the hell would rubble from a plane be identifyable in a giant pile of building rubble?
Maybe this was one of Iraq\'s \"weapons of mass destruction\" :rolleyes:
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Look this is all bs. Someone really bored just made somthing up
RussianVodka-
\"Its not mentioned in the movie, but i also noticed how the governement made a big deal about hte towers, but the never said ANYTHING about the pentagon, other than that it happen. Its like they wanted us to forget.\"
A: The people in the pentagong where government workers and stuff and not \"civilians\". Also not near as many people died in the pentagon as the towers. Also, the towers where in the middle of a big city and the pent. wasnt.
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Hey, you forgot something very important about the Pentagon! It\'s a Masonic Devil-worshipping building (http://www.rotten.com/library/culture/pentagon)!
:rolleyes:
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Good link.
Relevant Quote:
\"The major basis for these claims can be summed up thusly: \'It\'s obvious that a crashing 757 wouldn\'t cause the kind of damage that is clearly visible in pictures of the Pentagon.\'
The problem with this reasoning is fairly obvious: There is not a large body of data on what happens when you crash a 757 into a large concrete pentagon-shaped building. In fact, there\'s no data at all concerning what happens when you crash a 757 into a large concrete pentagon-shaped building except, presumably, the very pictures that the author is summarily dismissing.\"
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A lot of this speculation is not taking into account the speed of the aircraft, and the amount of incendiary fuel. Much of it would be incinerated.
I\'ll edit when I get the screenie.
Edit:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v59/Monketh/proofoftruth.jpg)
Bam. Hoax busted.
I HATE Conspiracy theories. They\'re so freakin\' stupid!
This is the part where I ought to deride you all for believing this bull. Seriously....
*shakes head in dissapointment and walks out of the thread*
Note: I have faith in the military for the most part, the above post does not mean I have faith in the politician\'s side of the government.
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Well, there could have been a plane, but not a 757. They many people said that it could have been a smaller plane.
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Probably few morons said it and a whole bunch kept repeating it..
God, this is so old news :P
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OMG somone from SofS! Dude I thought that guild was dead.............WTF? depth is in that guild?
Any ways monketh just showed you guyz the plane, so now what :P
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Well, there\'s a certain thing about conspiracies. You see, all of the conspiracies (besides the Illuminati, Masonry, and Freemasonry) started because they had a goal they wanted to achieve - they had a reason to conspirate.
Without a reason, there\'s no reason t conspirate. Without a reason to conspirate, you got a bunch of people sitting inside an organization and pondering how cool it is to be in a conspiracy organization even though they\'re not really doing anything (See: Freemasonry).
When saying that the alleged \'attempt\' to allegely \'destroy\' the alleged Pentagon allegely using an allegedly \'hijacked\' \'commercial\' \'757 Boeing\' is actually conspiracy, and it was all planned by someone that isn\'t Al Qaeda (regardless of whether it was a plane, a booby-trapped dog, or a missile), you need to find a reason.
Now, when you read this following quote you might think \"Makes sense, that\'s why there\'s plane wreck\":
Originally posted by RussianVodka
Well, there could have been a plane, but not a 757. They many people said that it could have been a smaller plane.
But why would the hooded people in the dark alleys of Conspiraville crash a plane into the Pentagon instead of the hijacked one while the hijacked one is \"this close\" to crashing into the Pentagon anyways?
Well, they got no reason. And that\'s the point.
And now let\'s think why anyone besides terrorist organizations and anti-Americans would want to destroy this part of the Pentagon?
The only reason I came up with was this:
There\'s a VIP that is really really very important in the Pentagon. This VIP\'s office is in the damaged part of the Pentagon.
Although he\'s very very very important, there were some monetary shortages and stuff, so his office had to be smaller. There were decorations, and his office became 1 square meter.
This very very very very important person just can\'t be in a 1 square meter office, because he smokes cigars, so he decided to launch a missile to hit the area of the Pentagon that got his office. That way when they\'ll rebuild that part, he might get a bigger office.
The bastard! He blew up a fifth of a government building while blaiming it on poor Al Qaeda just so he can get a bigger office!
Give me a better reason as to why someone would want the Pentagon destroyed, and I might actually believe this theory.
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Originally posted by FESFES
OMG somone from SofS! Dude I thought that guild was dead.............WTF? depth is in that guild?
Any ways monketh just showed you guyz the plane, so now what :P
depth in that guild oh really :D news to me. sos is not dead, just patiently waiting for cb release
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Good theory Nuc...
But seriously why are we pondering this conspiracy theory when there is a much bigger one at hand...Did you know PS Team members and WTBs have to sign an NDA?
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Originally posted by karakth
Good theory Nuc...
But seriously why are we pondering this conspiracy theory when there is a much bigger one at hand...Did you know PS Team members and WTBs have to sign an NDA?
8o *gasps*
Actually, I\'m not surprised. This means they can\'t tell us about CB even if we ask. :P
As for Nuc\'s theory, it\'s more likely mister VIP was a Very Important Target to someone, supposing, of course, that this was a vast right-wing conspiracy.
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Whats an NDA, and how does it affect the PS team?
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Meh that video makes me so mad why would someone waste so much time making something to force political views to change >:|
( As for me being in Swords of Silence, um no? I am not in that guild..I was set by Tyriel as..can\'t remeber..but it was just for alliance purposes ^^)
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NDA = Nondisclosure agreements
dead bodies make good evidence:
http://www.september11victims.com/september11victims/victims_list.htm
...and a flash movie is a poor source for facts.
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Hey people it\'s been a while. (I still browse the forums from time to time).
I\'m not really convinced that the Pentagon wasn\'t hit by Flight 77, but then I can\'t say that I\'m totally convinced that it was. After seeing that movie (which I wouldn\'t believe right away), I did a little research and found this:
by Dick Eastman
Part 1 http://www.apfn.org/apfn/77_deastman1.htm
Part 2 http://www.apfn.org/apfn/77_deastman2.htm
Part 3 http:// http://www.apfn.org/apfn/77_deastman3.htm
Not really conclusive, as there a couple weak points (such as the video, which I can\'t discern anything from), but interesting, and rather suspicious... If you were very intriuged, you could check all the testimonies to see if they\'re accurate.
The identified passengers\' bodies would definately disprove the above. If these body IDs weren\'t just cooked up... blah blah blah. Yeah, for now, I\'d go with it being what the government said it was.
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OK ill show you how easy it is to start somthing like this:
The president is an alien!
There you go. now you just use some photoshop skills to make \"evidance\" and there you go. a conspiracy.
Im sorry to say this but if you belive that flight 77 didnt hit the pentagon, then ur stupid
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A Non-Disclosure Agreement is actually important even for an open source project, especially one that isn\'t totally open, like PS.
The setting, for example. If someone that develops the setting of PS goes and blabbers about it, someone might use it for his own game and copyright it. Same goes with everything else they\'re making.
So even though the game is open-source, they must make sure they\'ll be able to release it, and have it open.
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FESFES, you can\'t argue like that. You need to show proof, sources, pictures, etc. You can\'t just say, I\'m right, your wrong, therefore you are stupid!
And what exactly did the US government show to us to prove that it was Flight 77 that hit the Pentagon?
Monketh, that image you showed us might have been the fin, or it might have been smoke, I can\'t tell.
I\'m not saying I believe in this, but you *must* take a neutral stance about such things until all facts are known.
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Originally posted by Levski
FESFES, you can\'t argue like that. You need to show proof, sources, pictures, etc. You can\'t just say, I\'m right, your wrong, therefore you are stupid!
And what exactly did the US government show to us to prove that it was Flight 77 that hit the Pentagon?
Monketh, that image you showed us might have been the fin, or it might have been smoke, I can\'t tell.
I\'m not saying I believe in this, but you *must* take a neutral stance about such things until all facts are known.
I knew FESFESFESFESFES...FES\'s post would hurt my argument. I hate it when people on my side say something so unbased and things fall apart...
What does it have to do to prove that? Why does it have to prove that? Why should it waste valuable time and resources to show that, huh?
Smoke isn\'t square in real-life. You\'ve been in the dungeons too long, Bub. Observe the other frames, it\'s the same shape.
Is there any way we\'ll ever know all the facts?
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Smoke isn\'t square in real-life. You\'ve been in the dungeons too long, Bub. Observe the other frames, it\'s the same shape.
:D . But anyways, smoke can very well look like that in a pixelated image, which might, I accede, be pixelated on purpose.
Btw, Monketh, I am not necesarily against you, it\'s just that I support thinking through something first... But once I reach a conclusion, it\'s pretty hard to pry me from that position.
Is there any way we\'ll ever know all the facts?
No, but I\'d sure like an administration which doesn\'t deliberately try to hide them from us. Is the United States a Democracy, or is the government using the people? For some reason, I tend to think the latter ever since George W. Bush stepped into office.
Now, do you think that September 11th would have happened if Al Gore was in office (and it was his own damn fault he didn\'t let Clinton campaign for him)? I don\'t. President Bush just isn\'t on the same caliber as he is/was. Now, when George W. Bush stepped into office, what did he do? Nothing visible to the American public. He struggled for control of the senate, he spent 40% of his time on vacation. Al Gore had clear goals and he had an advantage over Bush, he just came from the White House. So what does that do? It makes him experienced. And that is all that counts.
So let\'s not argue as to whether or not the Pentagon was hit, because it was. Would it have been hit, would September 11th have happened, if Al Gore had been elected? No, I don\'t think so.
Note: This isn\'t an angry/mad/flame post. It is simply a discussion post.
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You cannot bloodie well try and prove something over the internet like this, you need real time facts and proof not this crap. Conspiracies sometimes are real and other times its made by crazy people who have nothing better to do, sometimes like urban legends ^^ So lets forget about this and wait for the next terrorist attack, so we can talk about that :P
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At first the flash movie seemed pretty convincing, but all in all the info on Snopes seems more real to me... For one thing, the flash had a picture of a rather small hole that was supposedly the hole made by the object that collided with the Pentagon, however Snopes revealed that it wasn\'t the \"main\" hole, but just a smaller hole bored in the building by one of the plane\'s engines.
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All points are addressed in the link below. Keep in mind this is a 35 page long slideshow presentation, so if you don\'t want to read it all, at least click through to the end and look at all the impressive and descriptive pictures and illustrations. This research concludes what I have already concluded: there is something they are not telling us. Those of you who\'ve already dismissed this as a groundless conspiracy theory would be better off taking Levski\'s advice and remaining neutral until all facts are known. You may agree with me after reading the facts in this link...
HERE IS THE DEFINITIVE LINK (http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/pentagon/index.html)
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Well, according to the few I know about US and the US government I suppose that if they could prove that it wasnt a plane but some kind of missile that crashed in the pentagon we would here about it everyday !
Remember that Bush and everyone in the US gov want to show to the whole world that terrorism is everywhere and really dangerous, a missile would be a benediction for them! imagine, they could say that this military stuff must have been provided by an ennemy country and attack it (Who said France ?? NO!! we\'re nice people !! :)
No, really, if that kind of stuff was true nobody would have buried this story, money and power is much too important for everyone for them to waste such an occasion !
Of course I\'m just a little freaky french who\'s against the war in Iraq the way it\'s done, and who\'s infos come from national tv\'s and newspaper and not from CBS or FoxNews... But if u guys really think that u\'re administration is conspirating just dont reelect them ... please !!!
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Originally posted by leji
Well, according to the few I know about US and the US government I suppose that if they could prove that it wasnt a plane but some kind of missile that crashed in the pentagon we would here about it everyday !
Remember that Bush and everyone in the US gov want to show to the whole world that terrorism is everywhere and really dangerous, a missile would be a benediction for them! imagine, they could say that this military stuff must have been provided by an ennemy country and attack it (Who said France ?? NO!! we\'re nice people !! :)
No, really, if that kind of stuff was true nobody would have buried this story, money and power is much too important for everyone for them to waste such an occasion !
Of course I\'m just a little freaky french who\'s against the war in Iraq the way it\'s done , and who\'s infos come from national tv\'s and newspaper and not from CBS or FoxNews... But if u guys really think that u\'re administration is conspirating just dont reelect them ... please !!!
Don\'t worry, most of us Americans are too.
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The funny thing is that most conspiracy theoriests will pick up whatever evidence they get from the government and focus only on that.
I mean you can lure away a dog from a big pile of meat if you feed him small pieces (as long as he hasnt seen the big pile) ;)
Anyways i agree with monketh that this discussion is a bit of a waste of time cause it happen almost 3 years ago now. And finding out what really happened wont be possible anyways so find a more interessting way to waste your time (crystal collecting? :P).
As for politics - I hope that Bush wont be relected although as i heard he has good chances currently (even if he only leads by 2% - which is bad for a 2nd-term candidate btw).
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Well it seems that nowadays finding conspirations makes you \"kewl\" so I decided to find one as well... right on this website:
Originally posted by Abemore
HERE IS THE DEFINITIVE LINK (http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/pentagon/index.html)
first, the website clearly states that what hit pentagon was a missile... does this look like a missile damage?
(http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/pentagon/docs/pent_graphic_all.jpg)
no, I don\'t think so... conspiration! :evil:
Description of jet fuel fireballs is as follows: \"Go from yellow to orange to black.\"
Here we have last frame:
(http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/pentagon/docs/explosions.jpg)
why wasn\'t it mentioned? And how come missile explossion has fireball like that? conspiration! :evil:
Why quotes from various people on that website say different things? conspiration! :evil:
Why if you put everything together that has been said on that website, you get the conclussion that:
Pentagon was hit by a missile, followed by attack of a small plane (we have to get the damage shape and black fireball from somewhere, nay?) and after that Boeing 757 hit the ground and didn\'t touch the building (eyewitnesses are always right: \"it didn\'t appear to crash into the building ...\"). The lawn remained undamaged by the last one and right part of the plane flew to the left. The attack itself wasn\'t run by terrorists, but government itself (why would terrorists hit part of building with no one there?). And the government decided to crush all 3 items (missile, small plane, big plane) into pentagon to make it more flashy (well duh). There was no VIPs or anything there so they did it just to start war with terrorism and missile wouldn\'t be enough for it so they crushed all 3 and hid the missile and small plane from public (those 2 were used just for the fun of it). Oh, and WTC attack was run by government as well.
conclusion: utter conspiration! X(
yeah, this website is full of evidence... evidence that put together makes it the biggest bs of the year...
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Oh great, here we go again!
It does sometimes seem that I\'m the Official Unofficial Argument Lawyer for the Bush Administration and G.O.P. in this forum sometimes, doesn\'t it?
Well, someone\'s gotta do it, they don\'t deserve flak like this.
Originally posted by Levski
Smoke isn\'t square in real-life. You\'ve been in the dungeons too long, Bub. Observe the other frames, it\'s the same shape.
:D . But anyways, smoke can very well look like that in a pixelated image, which might, I accede, be pixelated on purpose.
It was pixelated by the author, or was originally low-resolution. The pixelation was created deliberately to hide the airplane.
No, but I\'d sure like an administration which doesn\'t deliberately try to hide them from us. Is the United States a Democracy, or is the government using the people? For some reason, I tend to think the latter ever since George W. Bush stepped into office.
For the last time, the US of A is a REPUBLIC! Why can\'t democrats/liberals get that through their heads!
Now, do you think that September 11th would have happened if Al Gore was in office (and it was his own damn fault he didn\'t let Clinton campaign for him)? I don\'t.
I\'m not sure whether to laugh at how ludicrous this claim is, or cry in pity because you believe it....
Those attacks were planned far in advance, before Bush stepped into office. Gore wouldn\'t have seen them coming, either. Don\'t even try to prove this, I\'m not reading blogs.
President Bush just isn\'t on the same caliber as he is/was. Now, when George W. Bush stepped into office, what did he do? Nothing visible to the American public. He struggled for control of the senate, he spent 40% of his time on vacation. Al Gore had clear goals and he had an advantage over Bush, he just came from the White House. So what does that do? It makes him experienced. And that is all that counts.
I see you\'re still a little bitter over florida. Gore was a politician and you know it. As for 40% of his time on vacation, where did you come up with this figure? I\'d really like to know.
Bush did what he said he would, even ol\' Bill Clinton admitted it.
So let\'s not argue as to whether or not the Pentagon was hit, because it was. Would it have been hit, would September 11th have happened, if Al Gore had been elected? No, I don\'t think so.
Yes, it would have. I don\'t care how much better a president you think Gore would have made, that wouldn\'t have changed it.
Note: This isn\'t an angry/mad/flame post. It is simply a discussion post.
Noted and filed.
[edit: ]
More meat:
Originally posted by DevotedEternal
Originally posted by leji
Of course I\'m just a little freaky french who\'s against the war in Iraq the way it\'s done , and who\'s infos come from national tv\'s and newspaper and not from CBS or FoxNews... But if u guys really think that u\'re administration is conspirating just dont reelect them ... please !!!
Don\'t worry, most of us Americans are too.
No, that\'s a lie. Bush would not have a 2-point lead if that were true. Those for and against are too close for it to be called in your favor.
Plus the \"and\" implies being completely against, and doesn\'t take into account those feeling the war was justified, but who disagree with the methods used.
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You can\'t just dismiss the evidence as BS when it\'s factual and clearly makes the original claim an impossibility. Yes, this does raise more questions than answers, but we should not subscribe to what the government tells us just because its easier. It is our responsibility to ask questions and keep the government in check.
Here are some solid arguements:- Damage pattern shows only a superficial relationship to the profile of a 757.
Demensions of damage were 26 feet by 90 feet; demensions of a 757 are 40 feet by 125 feet.
- Columns are bent towards the center of the hole and/or outward.
- There was a fence, a generator, and spools under the right engines projected path... all untouched.
- No photo\'s shown of seats, bodies, luggage, or plane parts.
- White explosion - not from jetfuel.
- Witnesses plot the 757 on a different flight path.
- All videos of the crash were seized by the FBI, save for 5 frames from a single Pentagon surveillance camera with crappy resolution, signs of alteration, and incorrect timestamps.
Notes to Monketh:
- The US is refered to as a Democratic Republic.
- Bush was on vacation before 9/11 42% of the time according to Michael Moore in Fahrenheit 9/11 who quoted the Washington Post.
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my opoinion is that the movies are stupid and prove nothing they where planes
where my belive something is amiss is the fact i belive the military knew about this....why you ask?
in a idea....thingy your country is hated 2/3 of the known lands hate you. you learn intel that some terrorists are going to attack inportant places to your land you have 2 options 1) you can draw whatever force you can and stop this threat. this of course means that the public will not feel much anger for the terrorists and will not fall behind you in a war...also you will not be remembered in history as the leader of that time.
or 2) you can let the attack happen bringing an even bigger force under your wing people most of the popualtion aggree with the war as they feel they have been attacked and need to fight back the likelyhood of war is high ypu will be remembered for this.
just something that bounces in my head not trying to move anyones veiw just showing my thinking :)
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Sure sure... but let me question government once I see website/book/whatever made by someone who isn\'t completely biased and is actually looking at \'for\' and \'against\' the theories.
The website is lacking any considerations. It\'s just putting \"omgz0r c0nspiracy!1!1!!oneoneeleven\" into pretty words with some \"facts\" from books by equally biased authors.
Author of the website is throwing away anything government states, without thinking about it.
For example the 757 profile.
He states that dimensions don\'t fit in... Well how does he expect them to fit in if the plane flying at such speed exploded when hitting ground and still crushed into solidly built construction? I wouldn\'t expect plane to \"slip\" into such building without damaging (maybe losing) wings.
Witnesses? If they all were right, 3 objects would attack pentagon.
White explosion? That came from the same guy who \"forgot\" to mention all the rest frames which clearly showed fuel explossion. I\'d expect any explossion to have flash effect which could do something like that, but hey...
I wouldn\'t expect bodies and luggage to survive heat that melt steel used to built pentagon...
I don\'t remember the spools picture too well... but weren\'t they covered in dust or something? If so, being at such distance from fire, wouldn\'t the explossion (no matter missile or plane) blow them away in the first place? Couldn\'t they be placed there after the attack?
And I\'m not surprised by FBI actions. If I were on their place, last thing I\'d like to see is what the cameras recorded everywhere in TV (no matter if 757 or whatever).
Can\'t answer point 2, don\'t know about it... heck, don\'t even know what that proves...
meh, personally I don\'t even care what hit it... it doesn\'t change anything anyway...
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Hmm, Seperot stop posting things like that it makes it harder to build up the urge to kill you :P
And I think it was God\'s fault, due to the fact that most things that are unexplained seem to be.
If it was a conspiracy wouldn\'t you think that they would have disabled the cameras before so that there was no chance of word leaking out.
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Did everyone ignore my post? I feel so unloved ;(
Originally posted by zabeal
Whenever you hear an urban legend, first check snopes.
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm
Abemore specifically, all those points are debunked. The parts were mostly vaporised, there was a giant black outilen in the shape of a plane, and parts on the other side of the building had to be repaired.
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stupid yanks
always on about some crap.......lol
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For the last time, the US of A is a REPUBLIC! Why can\'t democrats/liberals get that through their heads!
Definition of Republic Moneketh? A government run by the elected representatives of the people. Basically, it never says anywhere in that that those representatives and the \'elite\' they represent can\'t hide secrets from us.
I\'m not sure whether to laugh at how ludicrous this claim is, or cry in pity because you believe it....
Those attacks were planned far in advance, before Bush stepped into office. Gore wouldn\'t have seen them coming, either. Don\'t even try to prove this, I\'m not reading blogs.
First off, what is a blog? Second off, Clinton and Gore had already dealt with terrorism in their 8 year stretch. That shows that Gore wouldn\'t have ignored signs of the attack as Bush did. Yeah, it might have been planned for a long time before. But Gore would have had the wisdom to see the signs, instead of saying \'it isn\'t clear enough\' (the report, I mean).
I see you\'re still a little bitter over florida. Gore was a politician and you know it. As for 40% of his time on vacation, where did you come up with this figure? I\'d really like to know.
Bush did what he said he would, even ol\' Bill Clinton admitted it.
The majority of Americans are still bitter over Florida ;):P. Even besides the whole not-counting-minorities thing, the electorate system is old and it should be put where other such antiquated systems are - six feet under. The 40% comes from Fahrenheit 9/11.
Yes, it would have. I don\'t care how much better a president you think Gore would have made, that wouldn\'t have changed it.
Bush should have used his pre-emptive strategy when it mattered ;). Who\'s to say Gore wouldn\'t have?
No, that\'s a lie. Bush would not have a 2-point lead if that were true. Those for and against are too close for it to be called in your favor.
Bush only has a 2-point lead because of the bump he got from the GOP Convention. Kerry had a little bump after the Democratic Convention too. Besides, such polls have a 3% error margin.
@Monketh: These internet debates can last forever...
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You americans are so funny !!!
Struggling to know if there are conspiracy in governments or if they hide things... of course they do, each government in the world do that !
The main problem is that in US the medias are too easily manipulated by anyone who have money, imagine a second that tonight you see a top priority information flash on CBS or whatever channel saying that France launched a missile towards US but hopefully, it was destroyed before it could explode. What would you think ? would you believe it ? of course you would ! why would they lie on TV ? and would the man speaking on TV believe it ? of course he would ! why would he\'s boss lie on such important things ? and he\'s boss believe this ? of course he would ! why would a man who gives 1 billion $ each year would lie ?
What clue do you have to check ? none, the missile was destroyed ! What do you government do ? attack France ! obvious, if you dont attack they will think they can do it again...
Don\'t you think there\'s a problem somewhere ?
Yes, maybe the 1 billion $ was a problem, but the main problem is that none of you (by you I mean every single citizen who was for the war in Iraq in any form) remembers that normally, justice should not take any decision against if there is a doubt. I dont know if you have the same system as us, but in France, if there is any doubt about something you cannot attack (at least it\'s what\'s written in the law...). So as soon as no massive destruction weapon was found in Iraq, US should not have attacked. That\'s all.
Of course, most of you think that US is the most powerful country in the world and that therefor it has to take risks to protect itself from terrosism, but wake up ! why is there so much murders and terrorism threat in US ? because you are seeing the world like a place where america should reign ! Countries like Iraq cannot live under a democracy for the moment, if it could there would already be one. America is not even a real democracy (France isn\'t either) cause you choose you\'re president between two guys who have exactly the same background ideas and objectives, who are those guys ? Can you Levski present yourself as a president ? Well, in a real democracy you should be able to.. and easily.. don\'t tell me it\'s impossible, in our last election one of the candidate was a postman, he has never been ministre or whatever, but he presented himself, he had 3% of votes or something like that, and that\'s great ! He didn\'t have loads of red white and blue balloons falling from the ceilling when he was speaking, he didn\'t need actors and singers to come to meetings and say he is the man that we need, he just had a program that was presented on tv as all the other programs and that\'s all.
While the black female postman of your block cannot be a president, you will be manipulated even more than us, and that\'s sad, cause you could have a wonderful country but instead of that you have one of the last countries I would like to visit.
Well I talked quite much so I\'ll leave it here and as Levski said those debate could last forever so I\'ll just quit this one.
PS: Look up in a dictionnary the difference between republic and democracy, I think you really need it !
PS2: I just realized that it\'s not the place to discuss those kind of things don\'t you think ?
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Originally posted by Monketh
Oh great, here we go again!
It does sometimes seem that I\'m the Official Unofficial Argument Lawyer for the Bush Administration and G.O.P. in this forum sometimes, doesn\'t it?
Well, someone\'s gotta do it, they don\'t deserve flak like this.
Originally posted by Levski
Smoke isn\'t square in real-life. You\'ve been in the dungeons too long, Bub. Observe the other frames, it\'s the same shape.
:D . But anyways, smoke can very well look like that in a pixelated image, which might, I accede, be pixelated on purpose.
It was pixelated by the author, or was originally low-resolution. The pixelation was created deliberately to hide the airplane.
No, but I\'d sure like an administration which doesn\'t deliberately try to hide them from us. Is the United States a Democracy, or is the government using the people? For some reason, I tend to think the latter ever since George W. Bush stepped into office.
For the last time, the US of A is a REPUBLIC! Why can\'t democrats/liberals get that through their heads!
Now, do you think that September 11th would have happened if Al Gore was in office (and it was his own damn fault he didn\'t let Clinton campaign for him)? I don\'t.
I\'m not sure whether to laugh at how ludicrous this claim is, or cry in pity because you believe it....
Those attacks were planned far in advance, before Bush stepped into office. Gore wouldn\'t have seen them coming, either. Don\'t even try to prove this, I\'m not reading blogs.
President Bush just isn\'t on the same caliber as he is/was. Now, when George W. Bush stepped into office, what did he do? Nothing visible to the American public. He struggled for control of the senate, he spent 40% of his time on vacation. Al Gore had clear goals and he had an advantage over Bush, he just came from the White House. So what does that do? It makes him experienced. And that is all that counts.
I see you\'re still a little bitter over florida. Gore was a politician and you know it. As for 40% of his time on vacation, where did you come up with this figure? I\'d really like to know.
Bush did what he said he would, even ol\' Bill Clinton admitted it.
So let\'s not argue as to whether or not the Pentagon was hit, because it was. Would it have been hit, would September 11th have happened, if Al Gore had been elected? No, I don\'t think so.
Yes, it would have. I don\'t care how much better a president you think Gore would have made, that wouldn\'t have changed it.
Note: This isn\'t an angry/mad/flame post. It is simply a discussion post.
Noted and filed.
[edit: ]
More meat:
Originally posted by DevotedEternal
Originally posted by leji
Of course I\'m just a little freaky french who\'s against the war in Iraq the way it\'s done , and who\'s infos come from national tv\'s and newspaper and not from CBS or FoxNews... But if u guys really think that u\'re administration is conspirating just dont reelect them ... please !!!
Don\'t worry, most of us Americans are too.
No, that\'s a lie. Bush would not have a 2-point lead if that were true. Those for and against are too close for it to be called in your favor.
Plus the \"and\" implies being completely against, and doesn\'t take into account those feeling the war was justified, but who disagree with the methods used.
But there is no \"and\"... it just says \"who\'s against the war in Iraq the way it\'s done \"
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Originally posted by davo
stupid yanks
always on about some crap.......lol
... There is no need for prejudice.
[EDIT: Sorry for the double post.]
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Stuff from Levski:
Originally posted by Levski
For the last time, the US of A is a REPUBLIC! Why can\'t democrats/liberals get that through their heads!
Definition of Republic Moneketh? A government run by the elected representatives of the people. Basically, it never says anywhere in that that those representatives and the \'elite\' they represent can\'t hide secrets from us.
You asked if the United States was a democracy.
Both parties represent the elite, you know that.
I\'m not sure whether to laugh at how ludicrous this claim is, or cry in pity because you believe it....
Those attacks were planned far in advance, before Bush stepped into office. Gore wouldn\'t have seen them coming, either. Don\'t even try to prove this, I\'m not reading blogs.
First off, what is a blog? Second off, Clinton and Gore had already dealt with terrorism in their 8 year stretch. That shows that Gore wouldn\'t have ignored signs of the attack as Bush did. Yeah, it might have been planned for a long time before. But Gore would have had the wisdom to see the signs, instead of saying \'it isn\'t clear enough\' (the report, I mean).
How much did they do?
Did they do anything about it a year into their terms?
Gore would not have stopped it.
I see you\'re still a little bitter over florida. Gore was a politician and you know it. As for 40% of his time on vacation, where did you come up with this figure? I\'d really like to know.
Bush did what he said he would, even ol\' Bill Clinton admitted it.
The majority of Americans are still bitter over Florida ;):P.
Again, be careful where you use the word \"majority\".
A majority can be defined by one person, but using the word implies a large amount of people.
Even besides the whole not-counting-minorities thing, the electorate system is old and it should be put where other such antiquated systems are - six feet under. The 40% comes from Fahrenheit 9/11.
And I trust a big, fat, stupid white man like M. Moore why? I might point out that he\'s getting ridiculously rich off of his little propaganda video.
Yes, it would have. I don\'t care how much better a president you think Gore would have made, that wouldn\'t have changed it.
Bush should have used his pre-emptive strategy when it mattered ;). Who\'s to say Gore wouldn\'t have?
Gore attack pre-emptively, ooh boy that\'s a good one! :)
You couldn\'t pre-emptively seize people before 9/11 stateside by the way.
No, that\'s a lie. Bush would not have a 2-point lead if that were true. Those for and against are too close for it to be called in your favor.
Bush only has a 2-point lead because of the bump he got from the GOP Convention. Kerry had a little bump after the Democratic Convention too. Besides, such polls have a 3% error margin.
Again, like I said, it\'s more of a matter of being careful in your use of \"majority\".
@Monketh: These internet debates can last forever...
Indeed.
Error:
But there is no \"and\"... it just says \"who\'s against the war in Iraq the way it\'s done \"
Ah, brain fart, read it as \"and\". My apologies.
Stuff from Leji:
You americans are so funny !!!
I\'d be laughing too if this whole Presidential race wasn\'t so damn serious in affecting the future...
Struggling to know if there are conspiracy in governments or if they hide things... of course they do, each government in the world do that !
But not all things, we\'re just bored.
The main problem is that in US the medias are too easily manipulated by anyone who have money, imagine a second that tonight you see a top priority information flash on CBS or whatever channel saying that France launched a missile towards US but hopefully, it was destroyed before it could explode. What would you think ? would you believe it ? of course you would ! why would they lie on TV ? and would the man speaking on TV believe it ? of course he would ! why would he\'s boss lie on such important things ? and he\'s boss believe this ? of course he would ! why would a man who gives 1 billion $ each year would lie ?
What clue do you have to check ? none, the missile was destroyed ! What do you government do ? attack France ! obvious, if you dont attack they will think they can do it again...
Yes, I proclaim a new american proverb: \"He who owns the media, owns the country.\"
Don\'t you think there\'s a problem somewhere ?
Of course.
Yes, maybe the 1 billion $ was a problem, but the main problem is that none of you (by you I mean every single citizen who was for the war in Iraq in any form) remembers that normally, justice should not take any decision against if there is a doubt. I dont know if you have the same system as us, but in France, if there is any doubt about something you cannot attack (at least it\'s what\'s written in the law...). So as soon as no massive destruction weapon was found in Iraq, US should not have attacked. That\'s all.
Mass graves are sufficient evidence. Saddam\'s atrocities are documented. This is not saying we\'re going to overthrow dictators the world over, of course, because we aren\'t capable of that. The whole Idea is to install Democracy/Republic in the Middle East.
Of course, most of you think that US is the most powerful country in the world and that therefor it has to take risks to protect itself from terrosism, but wake up ! why is there so much murders and terrorism threat in US ? because you are seeing the world like a place where america should reign !
Damn straight we do, we do not want to be controlled by outside interests, nobody smaller\'n us is going to tell us what to do. Certainly not terrorists, certainly not Liberal Europe (Liberal Europe here denotes Liberals in Europe, not all of Europe).
The big threat is Nuclear Terrorism, it isn\'t a threat right now, but you can imagine what will happen when it happens. Terrorists must be exterminated now to prevent these future mass atrocities. The way to do that is setting up democracy, which checks itself, and backing it against armed takeover by etremists.
Countries like Iraq cannot live under a democracy for the moment, if it could there would already be one.
Supression, dictators do that, ya\' know?
America is not even a real democracy (France isn\'t either) cause you choose you\'re president between two guys who have exactly the same background ideas and objectives, who are those guys ? Can you Levski present yourself as a president ? Well, in a real democracy you should be able to.. and easily.. don\'t tell me it\'s impossible, in our last election one of the candidate was a postman, he has never been ministre or whatever, but he presented himself, he had 3% of votes or something like that, and that\'s great ! He didn\'t have loads of red white and blue balloons falling from the ceilling when he was speaking, he didn\'t need actors and singers to come to meetings and say he is the man that we need, he just had a program that was presented on tv as all the other programs and that\'s all.
It is impossible.
You know how big we are compared to France? You know how much it would cost to advertise yourself to the 250 million americans? I\'d like a different system of course, other than our current Extreme-Right vs. Extreme-Left one. When I get older, I\'m gonna try to found a moderate party. Most of our third party candidates are nut-jobs.
Pork-barrel Spending runs rampant, politicians run up huge deficits, the masses are uninformed and easily persuaded by TV ads, corruption is common among local politicians, nobody bother to inform themselves of their choices anymore, Michael Moore is making vast sums off of propaganda, the Bush Administration isn\'t healthy to the environment, Kerry will cripple us with taxes to fund his healthcare program, normal people are giving up on government because both parties suck...
...and the list goes on. You know that the Big Parties won\'t choose moderates to run for president, and that you need thosands of signatures in petition to run from a state in every state, right?
Well I talked quite much so I\'ll leave it here and as Levski said those debate could last forever so I\'ll just quit this one.
I respect that, I would too if I wasn\'t so bored.
PS: Look up in a dictionnary the difference between republic and democracy, I think you really need it !
PS2: I just realized that it\'s not the place to discuss those kind of things don\'t you think ?
@PS1~Methinks: Les dictionnaires Francais (sp*) est autre.
@PS2~Where else, if not here?
Stuff from Leji: In conclusion, the Gov\'t of the US would take the effort of thousands interested only in reforming it properly (meaning thousands of swing voters, who aren\'t going to reform it Left-or-Right Wing and won\'t argue much) to set it straight. Such a group does not exist.
Stuff from Levski: In conclusion, Gore could not have prevented the destruction of Sept. 11.
Error: My bad...
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It isn\'t impossible, you get a little funding, show that the direction the country will go in if you elect the other guys is terrible and leave out that you can\'t do a better job than them, and you might just win.
Hmm, that sounds like I am saying USA is going to fall apart, which wouldn\'t be overly surprising, but what I really mean to say is that the whole world is going down, Europe is going to unite though, I mean Euro-fighter, The Euro than the strongest, richest, nicest country would be England & co :P
...this could end bad if people take me seriously :P
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I don\'t know how to quote so I\'ll do this the old way :) :
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--The big threat is Nuclear Terrorism, it isn\'t a threat right now, but you can imagine what will happen when it happens. Terrorists must be exterminated now to prevent these future mass atrocities. The way to do that is setting up democracy, which checks itself, and backing it against armed takeover by etremists.
That\'s exactly what I meant, you can\'t exterminate terrorism, the more you attack any group the more you\'ll be attacked, it has been proved throughout centuries of history, stop attacking, make compromises, accept that democracy is not at all the perfect system (otherwise USA wouldn\'t have put Saddam and Pinochet to power, would they ?), and above all, stop being afraid ! (look at the cartoon in farenheit 911 and you\'ll understand why) I\'m sure it\'s not natural for you not to be afraid, you seem to be taught to, but being afraid is the best way to be manipulated, try thinking by yourself, read the Coran, check on the web why people fight in Iraq or in Tchetchenia, you\'ll see that if you threaten them, they wont threaten you.
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--You know how big we are compared to France? You know how much it would cost to advertise yourself to the 250 million americans? I\'d like a different system of course, other than our current Extreme-Right vs. Extreme-Left one.
hem hem, to us your system is more like Extreme Right vs Right (in fact to me it would be Extreme extreme right vs extreme right bbut people around me think I\'m a bit extreme so .... :) )
Can you tell me where the money that Bush and Kerry have to advertise come from ? well no matter, let\'s say that Bush has X thousands $ and Kerry Y thousands $. How many candidates do you want ? 10 ? ok let\'s do the math :
(X+Y)/10 = much more than needed for one person to advertise.
USA are bigger than France ? Well I guess most of the ads are done by TV aren\'t they ? Then it\'s simple each candidate has 15min a day on a national chanel to explain his program. I\'m not sure it will be that much more expansive to do that in USA than in France I think TVs are the same, you just have a bigger network and more chanels !
to sum up : you don\'t have the right to change the government of a country if the UN disagree (as it always did when you attacked anyone up to now), you don\'t have the right to sell or give weapons to anyone, you don\'t have the right to manipulate other countries with your economic power (i mean England, Spain and so on...), and for god sake YOU DONT HAVE THE RIGHT TO DROP ST EMILION (french wine) IN THE SEWERS JUST BECAUSE WE DISAGREE WITH YOU !!!!!!!!! (but you can call your french fries whatever you want I dont care :)
Anything else to say, feel free to talk, we\'re not in USA, you don\'t take any risk ;) (just teasing of course :) )
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[QUOTE ]insert quote [/QUOTE ]
is how you Quote but no space between E and ]
Love Actualy-Favorite scene- Englands PM shuts up American President (was portrayed as an annoying character) :P
Anyways, yeah, pro-US vs. anti-US convos happen too often on these forums and used to in game :P ...sooo, lets stop this one here
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One thing first; (I\'m on the go and don\'t have much time to reply)
Yeeehaw! They have every right to dump your fancy wine, so long as they paid for it. It\'s part of their Civil Rights!
Don\'t remind me about the whole \"Freedom Fries\" thing...
Ugh...
Edit: Oh, and use of terrorist tactics is NEVER justified, it ruins the cause it is associated with. I know the Quran isn\'t evil, but there are a lot of people who will think it is because of idiot terrorists.
I would have supported an Ultimatum in Najaf that said \"Get out in 24 hours, or we\'ll turn your freakin\' mosque into a Mushroom-cloud!\". He would have to, to maintain any support among the muslim community.
(Unless, of course, they\'re -all- crazy.)
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Originally posted by Monketh
Of course, most of you think that US is the most powerful country in the world and that therefor it has to take risks to protect itself from terrosism, but wake up ! why is there so much murders and terrorism threat in US ? because you are seeing the world like a place where america should reign !
Damn straight we do, we do not want to be controlled by outside interests, nobody smaller\'n us is going to tell us what to do. Certainly not terrorists, certainly not Liberal Europe (Liberal Europe here denotes Liberals in Europe, not all of Europe).
And this is exactly why I despise of you so much. You as America. You as all who have this opinion. You as you, Monketh (sorry, this statement of yours ticked me over. I thought you\'d be more moderate on this subject, but maybe you\'ve changed, or maybe I misinterpreted you on the other thread).
The statement of yours can be rephrased to
\"We don\'t care about anyone except ourselves unless they can bully us into submission.\", which can be rephrased as
\"We\'re utterly selfish.\"
And indeed this is what makes America: selfishness. You are always saying \"it\'s for the good of you all\" but in fact, it\'s only for your own good.
You force treaties upon others by threatening with embargoes, but these treaties further your economy at the expense of the \"partner\"\'s economy. (FTAs, anyone?)
You insist on others to bow to the rules you imposed or agreed upon if it helps your economy, yet you arbitraily violate those same rules if it helps your economy.
You are bigoted in everything you say and do. You go to war with some weak poor country for the unproven and totally made-up reason that they have WMD. Once this has been proven to be wrong, you then claim that it was \"because they had an evil dictator\".
Yet, there are and have been several other countries where WMD can be made or brought just as easily as in said country, who also happen to have evil dictators, but you don\'t care about them. The only difference, as much as it has been repeated, is oil.
You are constantly lying to the world.
Your much-praised \"American way of life\" is, in fact, a parasite\'s way of life.
Your usage of the word \"liberal\" as something stupid or bad or both shows that you\'re using rhetorics to undermine the credibility or reduce the seriousness of the ones you don\'t agree with. You don\'t disprove their point, instead you try to ridicule them to get others to ignore that they actually might have a valid point. \"Liberal tree-huggers\" comes to mind.
Having said this, I of course do not mean to say that America or any other country should bow to anyone else just for the sake of it. No, certainly not. What I request off the self-proclaimed \"greatest nation on earth\" is that it listens to reason and that it binds itself to the same rules as everyone else. I furthermore request that it acts in ways that can, especially in the long run, be regarded as \"responsible\". This doesn\'t mean that you need to stop using cars, but it does mean that you need to reduce pollution and to accept a slight decrease in quality of life just as anybody else does. All of us (save the 3rd world) have been living off scarce resources way too generously for at least 100 years. We need to stop this. Now. Immediately. We need to switch to regenerative sources (not just energy) now. If we cannot do so (as is obvious since technology isn\'t ready yet) we need to reduce usage of non-regenerative sources. Now. And everyone can help by finding some simple things that don\'t have much impact on life.
Also, I totally know that any other country is also selfish, but, unlike you, they didn\'t yet have the chance to prove they are not irresponsible, and therefore they, unlike you, have not failed. So therefore, unlike you, they still have the benefit of doubt.
Would I want ultimate power? Sure. Would I become corrupted by it? Most likely. Should I, therefore, have said power? No.
Not that it matters as you already said you don\'t care, but still I want to make it official that I disagree by heart.
Originally posted by Monketh
The big threat is Nuclear Terrorism, it isn\'t a threat right now, but you can imagine what will happen when it happens. Terrorists must be exterminated now to prevent these future mass atrocities. The way to do that is setting up democracy, which checks itself, and backing it against armed takeover by etremists.
You who don\'t even have a democracy, and who even less control your government, are not the ones to install such a system anywhere except at home. If anything, the world has to decide, and for this the best approximation is the UN.
I\'m not saying it\'ll fail, but does the right outcome justify the wrong reasons and approach? I don\'t think it does.
Also, there will always be terrorism because there will always be power-hungry ppl. who don\'t care about anyone else, who are supported by sheep-minded ppl. who follow them to be able to live their warped fantasies of being fighters for a good cause or just to feel powerful or whatever. The only thing that can stop it is everybody questioning everything and always acting responsibly, because this way, you can catch madmen before they can do anything big and there will be no followers to aid them. This includes terrorists as well as presidents.
A democracy surely helps, but the people must be willing to exert their control of it, which takes considerable effort, otherwise it will slowly degenerate into a currupt system just as any other form of government. Evidence AFAICS shows that this is happening to every major democracy as we type. Maybe ppl. are not mature enough for any society. Maybe I\'m just misinterpreting what\'s happening, maybe it has always been the way it currently is, which would be sad but better than a collapse of democracy.
While I believe that a responsible, caring dictator would be way better than a self-centered, bureaucratic, corrupt democracy, I\'d prefer a responsible, caring democracy, but this may just be what I\'m used to, because there actually are benefits in reduced government size.
Unless something really good happens, some day, there will be a nuke (or equivalent weapon) in the hands of a terrorist who uses it. All we can do is try hard to delay this day.
Originally posted by Monketh
I would have supported an Ultimatum in Najaf that said \"Get out in 24 hours, or we\'ll turn your freakin\' mosque into a Mushroom-cloud!\".
AFAIK, a mushroom cloud is the result of a nuclear explosion. No nuke should be used ever again. If anything, I\'d like to see a crater or something.
Also, I\'m not sure how the public would react if you actually did create said crater. It might just give the terrorists a boost in sympathy. :(
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I\'m from Australia, and from where I sit, we as a general population have a pretty good lifestyle, and most seem to like our current government. I don\'t! From where I sit, we are about to/ just have signed a trade agreement with the US. Can\'t wait to see where that takes us!!! And, our government too, was convinced from (as it later turns out) false info. on WMD that it was a good idea to go to war. I want to apologise now to anyone who was affected negatively in the war on Iraq (aka the war on terrorism)
The country, on the plus side, is free. But my question is for how long?
As for governments and who we (all countries, not just Australia) should elect, one is as good (or bad) as another these days aren\'t they?
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Well, Seytra seems to have the same opinion as me and he\'s much better than me at expressing himself, so I\'ll let him continue to try to explain to those stubborn americans (not that they are all stubborn but some of them seem to be :( ) what is real life out of america.
Good luck Seytra!
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Ok, I\'m only going to post once in this thread, hope it\'s enough. I\'m going to say what I always say in these arguments.
Basically, America is no worse or better than any other country. It\'s just bigger. The fact that it\'s bigger mean that it\'s decisions affect a lot more people than other countries\' decisions. That doesn\'t make the decisions themselves worse. I mean, seriously, take Lithuania as a random example. I seriously doubt that there government is waaay better than the American government, or that they make way better decisions, but guess what, no one cares! Lithuania\'s decisions have little affect on anyone else than Lithuania. America\'s decisions affect everyone, does that make it\'s decisions worse than Lithuania\'s? No. So cut America some slack, because you\'re government is no better.
Having said that I do admit that Americans can be pigs in an almost literal sense. On the other hand, please understand that we\'re not all like that. Thank you.
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Maybe the decisions of Lithuania\'s government woul affect more people if they decided to attack America wouldn\'t they ? Just to say that as soon as each country doesnt try to interfer in other countries\' politics there are no problems, no matter how big this country is (look at china, or even better, India)
Just leave the internationnal problems to UN !
And Ok I\'ll try not to think you are all the same, but you\'ll have to give some help :)
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Originally posted by Seytra
Originally posted by Monketh
I would have supported an Ultimatum in Najaf that said \"Get out in 24 hours, or we\'ll turn your freakin\' mosque into a Mushroom-cloud!\".
AFAIK, a mushroom cloud is the result of a nuclear explosion. No nuke should be used ever again. If anything, I\'d like to see a crater or something.
Also, I\'m not sure how the public would react if you actually did create said crater. It might just give the terrorists a boost in sympathy. :(
Actually, other types of explosives can create the mushroom cloud effect. I would never suggest using Nuclear weapons except during a war with a -country- that has them, and -is- using them.
Sheesh. I was more suggesting use of the \"MOAB\"
As for the \"Nobody smaller\'n us\" comment, how would you like to be controlled by little kids? That is more of what I meant. I don\'t want to be told what to do by Jacques Chirac. I feel the second gulf war was justified, and if you don\'t feel that way about removing a brutal dictator, that\'s unfortunate. An uncaring democratic/republican government is better than an uncaring dictatorship.
I care about the environment, and am for regulating SUV\'s and other emission generating things. We can\'t remain competitive with too many regulations, however.
[Suburban Utility Vehicles, of course, are also Public-safety hazards. Like assualt weapons.]
I do sometimes use \"Liberal\" as sort of a curse-word. It\'s a trend here. They are now calling themselves \"progressives\".
I oppose socialism very strongly, and Europe is socialist. Canada has a socialized health-care system, and where do many canadians come for their surgery? The left is venomous, too. Liberals allow too much on the social side as well.
Sometimes I\'m moderate, sometimes I\'m not.
The U.N. is inefficient and corrupt.
...this should be my last post, don\'t reply to it in this thread. If it\'s absolutely necessary, PM me.
Edit: Ah, and I\'d like to thank Leji for proposing the solution of 15-minutes airtime nationwide for each candidate. That is actually workable, although it won\'t eliminate sound-bites.
-
I think they are worse than at least several countries in Europe (not that I don\'t have serious problems with them as well), but they have given themselves the burden. They are always rubbing in that they\'re the most powerful, economically as well as militaristic, nation, and they just can\'t praise themselves as \"gods\' chosen country\" often enough. America believes the world rotates around it and that it, due to their percieved universal superity, has the right to play world police. The problem with that is, that the world police is corrupt. In this case it doesn\'t matter if the other ppl. in the world are corrupt as well, because they aren\'t the police. It doesn\'t make their deeds any better, but it makes the police worse because of their double morale.
So if you want to be world police, you need to be morally clean, responsible and thoughtful, but America is morally questionable at best, selfish and impulsive.
Therefore, what makes them worse is their insistance on being superiour when they are not, on policing things they don\'t have any qualification to, and their arrogance in still thinking they\'re always right when the opposite is long proven.
If your decisions necessarily affect countless ppl., and you are unfit to make responsible decisions on your own, then you must refer to someone who is more qualified than you.
Tax or not tax your ppl. all you want, allow or disallow guns all you like, make lawn mandatory if you wish, but if you go to war or poison the atmosphere, then reach a consensus with everyone else. And do everyone a favor and STOP LYING, AMERICA!
Of course, the UN certainly is not perfect, but it is the best we have.
@ Phinehas: The fact that there is opposition to Americas behaviour within America itself proves that you\'re not all like that (however, there seem to be way too many who are like that), but I didn\'t say you were, anyway.
@ Kanon: I think one should look at the smaller parties these days. They aren\'t as corrupt, inflexible and clueless as the big ones. There is, however, no need to turn to far right wing or far left wing parties as, AFAICS, most countries have moderate but small parties that could be elected, it\'s just that nobody seems to notice them.
@ leji: Lithuania wouldn\'t even have to attack America, they would just need to buy/build/be given one single nuclear plant to make their actions affect countless ppl..
Originally posted by Monketh
...this should be my last post, don\'t reply to it in this thread. If it\'s absolutely necessary, PM me.
I\'m sorry, but you made the statement in a public medium and therefore the discussion of it needs to be public as well.
Originally posted by Monketh
Actually, other types of explosives can create the mushroom cloud effect. I would never suggest using Nuclear weapons except during a war with a -country- that has them, and -is- using them.
Sheesh. I was more suggesting use of the \"MOAB\"
I didn\'t think you were actually suggesting use of a nuke, and I accept your statement.
Originally posted by Monketh
As for the \"Nobody smaller\'n us\" comment, how would you like to be controlled by little kids? That is more of what I meant. I don\'t want to be told what to do by Jacques Chirac.
So you believe that every single other country in the world is like a little child to America simply because they\'re smaller than you? This makes it even worse.
While I, at least after the \"we must test this nuke for the sake of it\" decision of France, certainly wouldn\'t want them to control anything important, I now, even more than before, feel very bad about America being powerful. If the american government and / or many of it\'s ppl. share your view on the world, then I\'d rather be controlled by Russia, because they seem to at least take the world seriously. I think that America is at best as responsible as Jaques Chirac\'s \"nukes\" decision.
I feel very offended by you stating that you feel that, just because someone else is smaller / has less weapons / money, they are less competent than you in making important decisions. Your arrogance is incredible.
Originally posted by Monketh
I feel the second gulf war was justified, and if you don\'t feel that way about removing a brutal dictator, that\'s unfortunate. An uncaring democratic/republican government is better than an uncaring dictatorship.
I certainly don\'t feel that the war was justified. I believe that removing malevolent dictators is a good idea in general, but it must not be done at the expense of countless lives. And I don\'t see the difference between an uncaring dictatorship and an uncaring democracy/republic. Just look at these so-called democracies in the 3rd world. No difference at all.
Originally posted by Monketh
I care about the environment, and am for regulating SUV\'s and other emissions. We can\'t remain competitive with too many regulations, however.
This effectively means that your economy is inefficient and therefore needs to be subsidised at the expense of the environment and therefore of the rest of the world. How about switching to making things that can be made efficiently, then? Everyone should have the same regulations on emissions, and the fewer emissions there are (as technologically possible), the better. I\'m not advocating a sudden break, but a slow transition.
Originally posted by Monketh
I oppose socialism very strongly, and Europe is socialist. Canada has a socialized health-care system, and where do many canadians come for their surgery? The left is venomous, too. Liberals allow too much on the social side as well.
IMO, there are certain things that must be \"socialist\". Like basic healthcare, education and social welfare. This is simply because everyone, regardless of social standing, needs a minimal set of things. Otherwise, ppl. will die on the streets, which cannot be tolerated.
This inevitably happens, because most ppl. are not going to save for these things, therefore they\'ll not have anything when they need it. If there are some who want more, they can optionally save, but those who wouldn\'t care about it should automatically do so.
It\'d be a two-class system, but a better one than one that leaves ppl. unprotected.
Europe is social, which means that they make an effort to not let ppl. starve, become crippled or die if it can be prevented, which I think is a good thing. I wouldn\'t want to live in a country where some unfortunate incident can make me a homeless beggar. This is what happens if you have capitalism without being social, and I oppose that, not capitalism in general.
-
Originally posted by Seytra
I think they are worse than at least several countries in Europe (not that I don\'t have serious problems with them as well), but they have given themselves the burden. They are always rubbing in that they\'re the most powerful, economically as well as militaristic, nation, and they just can\'t praise themselves as \"gods\' chosen country\" often enough. America believes the world rotates around it and that it, due to their percieved universal superity, has the right to play world police. The problem with that is, that the world police is corrupt. In this case it doesn\'t matter if the other ppl. in the world are corrupt as well, because they aren\'t the police. It doesn\'t make their deeds any better, but it makes the police worse because of their double morale.
So if you want to be world police, you need to be morally clean, responsible and thoughtful, but America is morally questionable at best, selfish and impulsive.
Therefore, what makes them worse is their insistance on being superiour when they are not, on policing things they don\'t have any qualification to, and their arrogance in still thinking they\'re always right when the opposite is long proven.
If your decisions necessarily affect countless ppl., and you are unfit to make responsible decisions on your own, then you must refer to someone who is more qualified than you.
Tax or not tax your ppl. all you want, allow or disallow guns all you like, make lawn mandatory if you wish, but if you go to war or poison the atmosphere, then reach a consensus with everyone else. And do everyone a favor and STOP LYING, AMERICA!
Somebody else step up and actually stop the killings in Sudan, and may be we will stop \"lying\". The UN is neither swift enough or strong enough to police the world.
Of course, the UN certainly is not perfect, but it is the best we have.
I think the UN needs reform. Now.
I think one should look at the smaller parties these days. They aren\'t as corrupt, inflexible and clueless as the big ones. There is, however, no need to turn to far right wing or far left wing parties as, AFAICS, most countries have moderate but small parties that could be elected, it\'s just that nobody seems to notice them.
I might point out that all parties here have one extremism or another, none are completely moderate. Some want to do unacceptable things, such as pull US forces out of Iraq.
(You may or may not approve of pulling out, but that would result in complete anarchy.)
Originally posted by Monketh
Actually, other types of explosives can create the mushroom cloud effect. I would never suggest using Nuclear weapons except during a war with a -country- that has them, and -is- using them.
Sheesh. I was more suggesting use of the \"MOAB\"
I didn\'t think you were actually suggesting use of a nuke, and I accept your statement.
I\'m not stupid enough to suggest that. I\'m glad you\'re not stupid enough to believe I would.
Originally posted by Monketh
As for the \"Nobody smaller\'n us\" comment, how would you like to be controlled by little kids? That is more of what I meant. I don\'t want to be told what to do by Jacques Chirac.
So you believe that every single other country in the world is like a little child to America simply because they\'re smaller than you?
It was the only analogy I could think of, but I\'m not telling a white lie or taking it back. We\'re big, big means big target, easy to blame for problems. Big means magnified actions. Big means that when we do something wrong, everyone knows, whereas when some other place does, nobody knows.
This makes it even worse.
While I, at least after the \"we must test this nuke for the sake of it\" decision of France, certainly wouldn\'t want them to control anything important,
Actually, I see nothing wrong with France testing a nuclear weapon.
Originally posted by Monketh
I care about the environment, and am for regulating SUV\'s and other emissions. We can\'t remain competitive with too many regulations, however.
This effectively means that your economy is inefficient and therefore needs to be subsidised at the expense of the environment and therefore of the rest of the world. How about switching to making things that can be made efficiently, then? Everyone should have the same regulations on emissions, and the fewer emissions there are (as technologically possible), the better. I\'m not advocating a sudden break, but a slow transition.
Certain things cannot be made efficiently. Subsidizing is for milk, not industry.
Ah, and I do know that outsourcing would not be much of a problem if americans bought american...
Originally posted by Monketh
...this should be my last post, don\'t reply to it in this thread. If it\'s absolutely necessary, PM me.
I\'m sorry, but you made the statement in a public medium and therefore the discussion of it needs to be public as well.
[/quote]
If I don\'t respond, the thread is killed. I busted the conspiracy, which is what I came here to do. There is no reason I should stay, other than to explain my positions more clearly, or offend you.
If I choose not to discuss the matter publicly, what can you do? If I choose not to discuss it? (Because surely my opinions will change very little.)
-
Wow, no new posts today ! Is the fight over yet ? I guess it\'s over for now but I\'m sure it\'ll be back soon :/
-
Its sep 11 today. I remember when I found out what happend I was jus like O_O and I couldnt stop staring at the tv. Would you belive I had to go to school that day?
This is a list of everyone who died or went missing
Its truly sad to see what people will do to eachother. Im almost in shock from the size of the list
WORLD TRADE CENTER
Gordon McCannel Aamoth, 32, New York, N.Y.*
Maria Rose Abad, 49, Syosset, N.Y.*
Edelmiro (Ed) Abad, 54, New York, N.Y.*
Andrew Anthony Abate, 37, Melville, N.Y.*
Vincent Abate, 40, New York, N.Y.*
Laurence Christopher Abel, 37*
William F. Abrahamson, 58, Cortland Manor, N.Y.*
Richard Anthony Aceto, 42, Wantagh, N.Y.*
Erica Van Acker, 62, New York, N.Y.*
Heinrich B. Ackermann, 38, New York, N.Y.*
Paul Andrew Acquaviva, 29, Glen Rock, N.J.*
Donald L. Adams, 28, Chatham, N.J.*
Shannon Lewis Adams, 25, New York, N.Y.*
Stephen Adams, 51, New York, N.Y.*
Patrick Adams, 60, New York, N.Y.*
Ignatius Adanga, 62, New York, N.Y.*
Christy A. Addamo, 28, New Hyde Park, N.Y.*
Terence E. Adderley, 22, Bloomfield Hills, Mich.*
Sophia B. Addo, 36, New York, N.Y.*
Lee Adler, 48, Springfield, N.J.*
Daniel Thomas Afflitto, 32, Manalapan, N.J.*
Emmanuel Afuakwah, 37, New York, N.Y.
Alok Agarwal, 36, Jersey City, N.J.*
Mukul Agarwala, 37, New York, N.Y.*
Joseph Agnello, 35, New York, N.Y.*
David Scott Agnes, 46, New York, N.Y.*
Joao A. Aguiar Jr., 30, Red Bank, N.J.*
Lt. Brian G. Ahearn, 43, Huntington, N.Y.*
Jeremiah J. Ahern, 74, Cliffside Park, N.J.*
Joanne Ahladiotis, 27, New York, N.Y.*
Shabbir Ahmed, 47, New York, N.Y.*
Terrance Andre Aiken, 30, New York, N.Y.*
Godwin Ajala, 33, New York, N.Y.*
Gertrude M. Alagero, 37, New York, N.Y.*
Andrew Alameno, 37, Westfield, N.J.*
Margaret Ann (Peggy) Jezycki Alario, 41, New York, N.Y.*
Gary Albero, 39, Emerson, N.J.*
Jon L. Albert, 46, Upper Nyack, N.Y.*
Peter Craig Alderman, 25, New York, N.Y.*
Jacquelyn Delaine Aldridge, 46, New York, N.Y.*
Grace Alegre-Cua, 40, Glen Rock, N.J.*
David D. Alger, 57, New York, N.Y.*
Ernest Alikakos, 43, New York, N.Y.*
Edward L. Allegretto, 51, Colonia, N.J.*
Eric Allen, 44, New York, N.Y.*
Joseph Ryan Allen, 39, New York, N.Y.*
Richard Lanard Allen, 30, New York, N.Y.*
Richard Dennis Allen, 31, New York, N.Y.*
Christopher Edward Allingham, 36, River Edge, N.J.*
Janet M. Alonso, 41, Stony Point, N.Y.*
Anthony Alvarado, 31, New York, N.Y.*
Antonio Javier Alvarez, 23, New York, N.Y.*
Telmo Alvear, 25, New York, N.Y.*
Cesar A. Alviar, 60, Bloomfield, N.J.*
Tariq Amanullah, 40, Metuchen, N.J.*
Angelo Amaranto, 60, New York, N.Y.*
James Amato, 43, Ronkonkoma, N.Y.*
Joseph Amatuccio, 41, New York, N.Y.*
Christopher Charles Amoroso, 29, New York, N.Y.*
Kazuhiro Anai, 42, Scarsdale, N.Y.
Calixto Anaya, 35, Suffern, N.Y.*
Jorge Octavio Santos Anaya, 25, Aguascalientes, Aguascalientes, Mexico
Joseph Peter Anchundia, 26, New York, N.Y.*
Kermit Charles Anderson, 57, Green Brook, N.J.*
Yvette Anderson, 53, New York, N.Y.*
John Andreacchio, 52, New York, N.Y.*
Michael Rourke Andrews, 34, Belle Harbor, N.Y.*
Jean A. Andrucki, 42, Hoboken, N.J.*
Siew-Nya Ang, 37, East Brunswick, N.J.*
Joseph Angelini, 38, Lindenhurst, N.Y.*
Joseph Angelini, 63, Lindenhurst, N.Y.*
Laura Angilletta, 23, New York, N.Y.
Doreen J. Angrisani, 44, New York, N.Y.*
Lorraine D. Antigua, 32, Middletown, N.J.*
Peter Paul Apollo, 26, Hoboken, N.J.*
Faustino Apostol, 55, New York, N.Y.*
Frank Thomas Aquilino, 26, New York, N.Y.*
Patrick Michael Aranyos, 26, New York, N.Y.*
David Gregory Arce, 36, New York, N.Y.*
Michael G. Arczynski, 45, Little Silver, N.J.*
Louis Arena, 32, New York, N.Y.*
Adam Arias, 37, Staten Island, N.Y.*
Michael J. Armstrong, 34, New York, N.Y.*
Jack Charles Aron, 52, Bergenfield, N.J.*
Joshua Aron, 29, New York, N.Y.*
Richard Avery Aronow, 48, Mahwah, N.J.*
Japhet J. Aryee, 49, Spring Valley, N.Y.
Carl Asaro, 39, Middletown, N.Y.*
Michael A. Asciak, 47, Ridgefield, N.J.*
Michael Edward Asher, 53, Monroe, N.Y.*
Janice Ashley, 25, Rockville Centre, N.Y.*
Thomas J. Ashton, 21, New York, N.Y.*
Manuel O. Asitimbay, 36, New York, N.Y.*
Lt. Gregg Arthur Atlas, 45, Howells, N.Y.*
Gerald Atwood, 38, New York, N.Y.*
James Audiffred, 38, New York, N.Y.*
Kenneth W. Van Auken, 47, East Brunswick, N.J.*
Louis F. Aversano, Jr, 58, Manalapan, N.J.*
Ezra Aviles, 41, Commack, N.Y.*
Ayodeji Awe, 42, New York, N.Y
Samuel (Sandy) Ayala, 36, New York, N.Y.*
Arlene T. Babakitis, 47, Secaucus, N.J.*
Eustace (Rudy) Bacchus, 48, Metuchen, N.J.*
John James Badagliacca, 35, New York, N.Y.*
Jane Ellen Baeszler, 43, New York, N.Y.*
Robert J. Baierwalter, 44, Albertson, N.Y.*
Andrew J. Bailey, 29, New York, N.Y.*
Brett T. Bailey, 28, Bricktown, N.J.*
Tatyana Bakalinskaya, 43, New York, N.Y.*
Michael S. Baksh, 36, Englewood, N.J.*
Sharon Balkcom, 43, White Plains, N.Y.*
Michael Andrew Bane, 33, Yardley, Pa.*
Kathy Bantis, 44, Chicago, Ill.*
Gerard Jean Baptiste, 35, New York, N.Y.*
Walter Baran, 42, New York, N.Y.*
Gerard A. Barbara, 53, New York, N.Y.*
Paul V. Barbaro, 35, Holmdel, N.J.*
James W. Barbella, 53, Oceanside, N.Y.*
Ivan Kyrillos Fairbanks Barbosa, 30, Jersey City, N.J.*
Victor Daniel Barbosa, 23, New York, N.Y.*
Colleen Ann Barkow, 26, East Windsor, N.J.*
David Michael Barkway, 34, Toronto, Ontario, Canada*
Matthew Barnes, 37, Monroe, N.Y.*
Sheila Patricia Barnes, 55, Bay Shore, N.Y.*
Evan J. Baron, 38, Bridgewater, N.J.*
Renee Barrett-Arjune, 41, Irvington, N.J.
Arthur T. Barry, 35, New York, N.Y.*
Diane G. Barry, 60, New York, N.Y.*
Maurice Vincent Barry, 49, Rutherford, N.J.*
Scott D. Bart, 28, Malverne, N.Y.*
Carlton W. Bartels, 44, New York, N.Y.*
Guy Barzvi, 29, New York, N.Y.*
Inna Basina, 43, New York, N.Y.*
Alysia Basmajian, 23, Bayonne, N.J.*
Kenneth William Basnicki, 48, Etobicoke, Ontario, Canada*
Lt. Steven J. Bates, 42, New York, N.Y.*
Paul James Battaglia, 22, New York, N.Y.*
W. David Bauer, 45, Rumson, N.J.
Ivhan Luis Carpio Bautista, 24, New York, N.Y.*
Marlyn C. Bautista, 46, Iselin, N.J.*
Jasper Baxter, 45, Philadelphia, Pa.*
Michele (Du Berry) Beale, 37, Essex, Britain*
Paul F. Beatini, 40, Park Ridge, N.J.*
Jane S. Beatty, 53, Belford, N.J.*
Larry I. Beck, 38, Baldwin, N.Y.*
Manette Marie Beckles, 43, Rahway, N.J.*
Carl John Bedigian, 35, New York, N.Y.*
Michael Beekman, 39, New York, N.Y.*
Maria Behr, 41, Milford, N.J.
Yelena Belilovsky, 38, Mamaroneck, N.Y.*
Nina Patrice Bell, 39, New York, N.Y.*
Andrea Della Bella, 59, Jersey City, N.J.*
Debbie S. Bellows, 30, East Windsor, N.J.*
Stephen Elliot Belson, 51, New York, N.Y.*
Paul Michael Benedetti, 32, New York, N.Y.*
Denise Lenore Benedetto, 40, New York, N.Y.*
Bryan Craig Bennett, 25, New York, N.Y.*
Oliver Duncan Bennett, 29, London, England*
Eric L. Bennett, 29, New York, N.Y.*
Margaret L. Benson, 52, Rockaway, N.J.*
Dominick J. Berardi, 25, New York, N.Y.
James Patrick Berger, 44, Lower Makefield, Pa.*
Steven Howard Berger, 45, Manalapan, N.J.*
John P. Bergin, 39, New York, N.Y.*
Alvin Bergsohn, 48, Baldwin Harbor, N.Y.*
Daniel D. Bergstein, 38, Teaneck, N.J.*
Michael J. Berkeley, 38, New York, N.Y.*
Donna Bernaerts-Kearns, 44, Hoboken, N.J.*
David W. Bernard, 57, Chelmsford, Mass.*
William Bernstein, 44, New York, N.Y.*
David M. Berray, 39, New York, N.Y.*
David S. Berry, 43, New York, N.Y.*
Joseph J. Berry, 55, Saddle River, N.J.*
William Reed Bethke, 36, Hamilton, N.J.*
Timothy D. Betterly, 42, Little Silver, N.J.*
Edward F. Beyea, 42, New York, N.Y.*
Paul Michael Beyer, 37, New York, N.Y.*
Anil T. Bharvaney, 41, East Windsor, N.J.*
Bella Bhukhan, 24, Union, N.J.*
Shimmy D. Biegeleisen, 42, New York, N.Y.*
Peter Alexander Bielfeld, 44, New York, N.Y.*
William Biggart, 54, New York, N.Y.*
Brian Bilcher, 36, New York, N.Y.*
Carl Vincent Bini, 44, New York, N.Y.*
Gary Bird, 51, Tempe, Ariz.*
Joshua David Birnbaum, 24, New York, N.Y.*
George Bishop, 52, Granite Springs, N.Y.*
Jeffrey D. Bittner, 27, New York, N.Y.*
Balewa Albert Blackman, 26, New York, N.Y.*
Christopher Joseph Blackwell, 42, Patterson, N.Y.*
Susan L. Blair, 35, East Brunswick, N.J.*
Harry Blanding, 38, Blakeslee, Pa.*
Janice L. Blaney, 55, Williston Park, N.Y.*
Craig Michael Blass, 27, Greenlawn, N.Y.*
Rita Blau, 52, New York, N.Y.*
Richard M. Blood, 38, Ridgewood, N.J.*
Michael A. Boccardi, 30, Bronxville, N.Y.
John Paul Bocchi, 38, New Vernon, N.J.*
Michael L. Bocchino, 45, New York, N.Y.*
Susan Mary Bochino, 36, New York, N.Y.*
Bruce Douglas (Chappy) Boehm, 49, West Hempstead, N.Y.*
Mary Katherine Boffa, 45, New York, N.Y.*
Nicholas A. Bogdan, 34, Browns Mills, N.J.*
Darren C. Bohan, 34, New York, N.Y.*
Lawrence Francis Boisseau, 36, Freehold, N.J.*
Vincent M. Boland, 25, Ringwood, N.J.*
Alan Bondarenko, 53, Flemington, N.J.*
Andre Bonheur, 40, New York, N.Y.*
Colin Arthur Bonnett, 39, New York, N.Y.*
Frank Bonomo, 42, Port Jefferson, N.Y.*
Yvonne L. Bonomo, 30, New York, N.Y.*
Sean Booker, 35, Irvington, N.J.*
Sherry Ann Bordeaux, 38, Jersey City, N.J.*
Krystine C. Bordenabe, 33, Old Bridge, N.J.*
Martin Boryczewski, 29, Parsippany, N.J.*
Richard E. Bosco, 34, Suffern, N.Y.*
John Howard Boulton, 29, New York, N.Y.*
Francisco Bourdier, 41, New York, N.Y.*
Thomas H. Bowden, 36, Wyckoff, N.J.*
Kimberly S. Bowers, 31, Islip, N.Y.*
Veronique (Bonnie) Nicole Bowers, 28, New York, N.Y.*
Larry Bowman, 46, New York, N.Y.*
Shawn Edward Bowman, 28, New York, N.Y.*
Kevin L. Bowser, 45, Philadelphia, Pa.*
Gary R. Box, 37, North Bellmore, N.Y.*
Gennady Boyarsky, 34, New York, N.Y.*
Pamela Boyce, 43, New York, N.Y.*
Michael Boyle, 37, Westbury, N.Y.*
Alfred Braca, 54, Leonardo, N.J.*
Sandra Conaty Brace, 60, New York, N.Y.*
Kevin H. Bracken, 37, New York, N.Y.*
David Brian Brady, 41, Summit, N.J.*
Alexander Braginsky, 38, Stamford, Conn.*
Nicholas W. Brandemarti, 21, Mantua, N.J.*
Michelle Renee Bratton, 23, Yonkers, N.Y.*
Patrice Braut, 31, New York, N.Y.*
Lydia Estelle Bravo, 50, Dunellen, N.J.*
Ronald Michael Breitweiser, 39, Middletown Township, N.J.*
Edward A. Brennan, 37, New York, N.Y.*
Frank H. Brennan, 50, New York, N.Y.*
Michael Emmett Brennan, 27, New York, N.Y.*
Peter Brennan, 30, Ronkonkoma, N.Y.*
Thomas M. Brennan, 32, Scarsdale, N.Y.
Capt. Daniel Brethel, 43, Farmingdale, N.Y.*
Gary L. Bright, 36, Union City, N.J.*
Jonathan Eric Briley, 43, Mount Vernon, N.Y.*
Mark A. Brisman, 34, Armonk, N.Y.*
Paul Gary Bristow, 27, New York, N.Y.*
Victoria Alvarez Brito, 38, New York, N.Y.*
Mark Francis Broderick, 42, Old Bridge, N.J.*
Herman C. Broghammer, 58, North Merrick, N.Y.*
Keith Broomfield, 49, New York, N.Y.*
Janice J. Brown, 35, New York, N.Y.*
Lloyd Brown, 28, Bronxville, N.Y.*
Capt. Patrick J. Brown, 48, New York, N.Y.*
Bettina Browne, 49, Atlantic Beach, N.Y.*
Mark Bruce, 40, Summit, N.J.*
Richard Bruehert, 38, Westbury, N.Y.*
Andrew Brunn, 28*
Capt. Vincent Brunton, 43, New York, N.Y.*
Ronald Paul Bucca, 47, Tuckahoe, N.Y.*
Brandon J. Buchanan, 24, New York, N.Y.*
Greg Joseph Buck, 37, New York, N.Y.*
Dennis Buckley, 38, Chatham, N.J.*
Nancy Bueche, 43, Hicksville, N.Y.*
Patrick Joseph Buhse, 36, Lincroft, N.J.*
John E. Bulaga, 35, Paterson, N.J.*
Stephen Bunin, 45, New York, N.Y.
Thomas Daniel Burke, 38, Bedford Hills, N.Y.*
Capt. William F. Burke, 46, New York, N.Y.*
Matthew J. Burke, 28, New York, N.Y.*
Donald James Burns, 61, Nissequogue, N.Y.*
Kathleen A. Burns, 49, New York, N.Y.*
Keith James Burns, 39, East Rutherford, N.J.*
John Patrick Burnside, 36, New York, N.Y.*
Irina Buslo, 32, New York, N.Y.*
Milton Bustillo, 37, New York, N.Y.*
Thomas M. Butler, 37, Kings Park, N.Y.*
Patrick Byrne, 39, New York, N.Y.*
Timothy G. Byrne, 36, Manhattan, N.Y.*
Jesus Cabezas, 66, New York, N.Y.*
Lillian Caceres, 48, New York, N.Y.*
Brian Joseph Cachia, 26, New York, N.Y.*
Steven Cafiero, 31, New York, N.Y.*
Richard M. Caggiano, 25, New York, N.Y.*
Cecile M. Caguicla, 55, Boonton, N.J.*
Michael John Cahill, 37, East Williston, N.Y.*
Scott W. Cahill, 30, West Caldwell, N.J.*
Thomas J. Cahill, 36, Franklin Lakes, N.J.*
George Cain, 35, Massapequa, N.Y.*
Salvatore B. Calabro, 38, New York, N.Y.*
Joseph Calandrillo, 49, Hawley, Pa.*
Philip V. Calcagno, 57, New York, N.Y.
Edward Calderon, 44, Jersey City, N.J.*
Kenneth Marcus Caldwell, 30, New York, N.Y.*
Dominick E. Calia, 40, Manalapan, N.J.*
Felix (Bobby) Calixte, 38, New York, N.Y.
Capt. Frank Callahan, 51, New York, N.Y.*
Liam Callahan, 44, Rockaway, N.J.*
Luigi Calvi, 34, East Rutherford, N.J.*
Roko Camaj, 60, Manhasset, N.Y.*
Michael Cammarata, 22, Huguenot, N.Y.*
David Otey Campbell, 51, Basking Ridge, N.J.*
Geoffrey Thomas Campbell, 31, New York, N.Y.*
Sandra Patricia Campbell, 45, New York, N.Y.*
Jill Marie Campbell, 31, New York, N.Y.*
Robert Arthur Campbell, 25, New York, N.Y.*
Juan Ortega Campos, 32, New York, N.Y.*
Sean Canavan, 39, New York, N.Y.*
John A. Candela, 42, Glen Ridge, N.J.*
Vincent Cangelosi, 30, New York, N.Y.*
Stephen J. Cangialosi, 40, Middletown, N.J.*
Lisa B. Cannava, 30, New York, N.Y.*
Brian Cannizzaro, 30, New York, N.Y.*
Michael R. Canty, 30, Schenectady, N.Y.*
Louis A. Caporicci, 35, New York, N.Y.*
Jonathan N. Cappello, 23, Garden City, N.Y.*
James Christopher Cappers, 33, Wading River, N.Y.*
Richard M. Caproni, 34, Lynbrook, N.Y.*
Jose Cardona, 32, New York, N.Y.*
Dennis M Carey, 51, Wantagh, N.Y.*
Edward Carlino, 46, New York, N.Y.*
Michael Scott Carlo, 34, New York, N.Y.*
David G. Carlone, 46, Randolph, N.J.*
Rosemarie C. Carlson, 40, New York, N.Y.*
Mark Stephen Carney, 41, Rahway, N.J.
Joyce Ann Carpeneto, 40, New York, N.Y.*
Alicia Acevedo Carranza, Teziutlan, Puebla, Mexico
Jeremy M. Carrington, 34, New York, N.Y.*
Michael T. Carroll, 39, New York, N.Y.*
Peter Carroll, 42, New York, N.Y.*
James J. Carson, 32, Massapequa, N.Y.*
James Marcel Cartier, 26, New York, N.Y.*
Vivian Casalduc, 45, New York, N.Y.*
John F. Casazza, 38, Colts Neck, N.J.*
Paul Cascio, 23, Manhasset, N.Y.*
Kathleen Hunt Casey, 43, Middletown, N.J.*
Margarito Casillas, 54, Guadalajara, Jalisco, Mexico
Thomas Anthony Casoria, 29, New York, N.Y.*
William Otto Caspar, 57, Eatontown, N.J.*
Alejandro Castano, 35, Englewood, N.J.*
Arcelia Castillo, 49, Elizabeth, N.J.*
Leonard M. Castrianno, 30, New York, N.Y.*
Jose Ramon Castro, 37, New York, N.Y.
Richard G. Catarelli, 47, New York, N.Y.
Christopher Sean Caton, 34, New York, N.Y.*
Robert J. Caufield, 48, Valley Stream, N.Y.*
Mary Teresa Caulfield, 58, New York, N.Y.*
Judson Cavalier, 26, Huntington, N.Y.*
Michael Joseph Cawley, 32, Bellmore, N.Y.*
Jason D. Cayne, 32, Morganville, N.J.*
Juan Armando Ceballos, 47, New York, N.Y.*
Marcia G. Cecil-Carter, 34, New York, N.Y.*
Jason Cefalu, 30, West Hempstead, N.Y.*
Thomas J. Celic, 43, New York, N.Y.*
Ana M. Centeno, 38, Bayonne, N.J.*
Joni Cesta, 37, Bellmore, N.Y.*
Jeffrey M. Chairnoff, 35, West Windsor, N.J.*
Swarna Chalasani, 33, Jersey City, N.J.*
William Chalcoff, 41, Roslyn, N.Y.*
Eli Chalouh, 23, New York, N.Y.*
Charles Lawrence (Chip) Chan, 23, New York, N.Y.*
Mandy Chang, 40, New York, N.Y.*
Mark L. Charette, 38, Millburn, N.J.*
Gregorio Manuel Chavez, 48, New York, N.Y.
Jayceryll M. de Chavez, 24, Carteret, N.J.*
Pedro Francisco Checo, 35, New York, N.Y.*
Douglas MacMillan Cherry, 38, Maplewood, N.J.*
Stephen Patrick Cherry, 41, Stamford, Conn.*
Vernon Paul Cherry, 49, New York, N.Y.*
Nestor Chevalier, 30, New York, N.Y.*
Swede Joseph Chevalier, 26, Locust, N.J.*
Alexander H. Chiang, 51, New City, N.Y.*
Dorothy J. Chiarchiaro, 61, Glenwood, N.J.*
Luis Alfonso Chimbo, 39, New York, N.Y.*
Robert Chin, 33, New York, N.Y.*
Wing Wai (Eddie) Ching, 29, Union, N.J.*
Nicholas P. Chiofalo, 39, Selden, N.Y.*
John Chipura, 39, New York, N.Y.*
Peter A. Chirchirillo, 47, Langhorne, Pa.*
Catherine E. Chirls, 47, Princeton, N.J.*
Kyung (Kaccy) Cho, 30, Clifton, N.J.*
Abul K. Chowdhury, 30, New York, N.Y.*
Mohammed Salahuddin Chowdhury, 38, New York, N.Y.*
Kirsten L. Christophe, 39, Maplewood, N.J.*
Pamela Chu, 31, New York, N.Y.*
Steven Paul Chucknick, 44, Cliffwood Beach, N.J.*
Wai-ching Chung, 36, New York, N.Y.*
Christopher Ciafardini, 30, New York, N.Y.*
Alex F. Ciccone, 38, New Rochelle, N.Y.*
Frances Ann Cilente, 26, New York, N.Y.*
Elaine Cillo, 40, New York, N.Y.*
Edna Cintron, 46, New York, N.Y.*
Nestor Andre Cintron, 26, New York, N.Y.*
Lt. Robert Dominick Cirri, 39, Nutley, N.J.*
Juan Pablo Alvarez Cisneros, 23, Weehawken, N.J.*
Gregory Alan Clark, 40, Teaneck, N.J.*
Mannie Leroy Clark, 54, New York, N.Y.
Thomas R. Clark, 37, Summit, N.J.*
Eugene Clark, 47, New York, N.Y.*
Benjamin Keefe Clark, 39, New York, N.Y.*
Christopher Robert Clarke, 34, Philadelphia, Pa.*
Donna Clarke, 39, New York, N.Y.*
Michael Clarke, 27, Prince\'s Bay, N.Y.*
Suria R.E. Clarke, 30, New York, N.Y.*
Kevin Francis Cleary, 38, New York, N.Y.*
James D. Cleere, 55, Newton, Iowa*
Geoffrey W. Cloud, 36, Stamford, Conn.*
Susan M. Clyne, 42, Lindenhurst, N.Y.*
Steven Coakley, 36, Deer Park, N.Y.*
Jeffrey Coale, 31, Souderton, Pa.*
Patricia A. Cody, 46, Brigantine, N.J.*
Daniel Michael Coffey, 54, Newburgh, N.Y.*
Jason Matthew Coffey, 25, Newburgh, N.Y.*
Florence Cohen, 62, New York, N.Y.*
Kevin Sanford Cohen, 28, Edison, N.J.*
Anthony Joseph Coladonato, 47, New York, N.Y.*
Mark J. Colaio, 34, New York, N.Y.*
Stephen J. Colaio, 32, Montauk, N.Y.*
Christopher M. Colasanti, 33, Hoboken, N.J.*
Michel Paris Colbert, 39, West New York, N.J.*
Kevin Nathaniel Colbert, 25, New York, N.Y.*
Keith Eugene Coleman, 34, Warren, N.J.*
Scott Thomas Coleman, 31, New York, N.Y.*
Tarel Coleman, 32*
Liam Joseph Colhoun, 34, Flushing,, N.Y.*
Robert D. Colin, 49, West Babylon, N.Y.*
Robert J. Coll, 35, Glen Ridge, N.J.*
Jean Marie Collin, 42, New York, N.Y.*
John Michael Collins, 42, New York, N.Y.*
Michael L. Collins, 38, Montclair, N.J.*
Thomas J. Collins, 36, New York, N.Y.*
Joseph Collison, 50, New York, N.Y.*
Patricia Malia Colodner, 39, New York, N.Y.*
Linda M. Colon, 46, Perrineville, N.J.*
Soledi Colon, 39, New York, N.Y.
Ronald Comer, 56, Northport, N.Y.*
Jaime Concepcion, 46, New York, N.Y.*
Albert Conde, 62, Englishtown, N.J.*
Denease Conley, 44, New York, N.Y.*
Susan Clancy Conlon, 41, New York, N.Y.*
Margaret Mary Conner, 57, New York, N.Y.*
John E. Connolly, 46, Allenwood, N.J.*
Cynthia L. Connolly, 40, Metuchen, N.J.*
James Lee Connor, 38, Summit, N.J.*
Jonathan (J.C.) Connors, 55, Old Brookville, N.Y.
Kevin P. Connors, 55, Greenwich, Conn.*
Kevin Francis Conroy, 47, New York, N.Y.*
Brenda E. Conway, 40, New York, N.Y.*
Dennis Michael Cook, 33, Colts Neck, N.J.*
Helen D. Cook, 24, New York, N.Y.*
John A. Cooper, 40, Bayonne, N.J.*
Joseph J. Coppo, 47, New Canaan, Conn.*
Gerard J. Coppola, 46, New Providence, N.J.*
Joseph Albert Corbett, 28, Islip, N.Y.*
Alejandro Cordero, 23, New York, N.Y.*
Robert Cordice, 28, New York, N.Y.*
Ruben D. Correa, 44, New York, N.Y.*
Danny A. Correa-Gutierrez, 25, Fairview, N.J.*
James Corrigan, 60, New York, N.Y.*
Carlos Cortes, 57, New York, N.Y.*
Kevin M. Cosgrove, 46, West Islip, N.Y.*
Dolores Marie Costa, 53, Middletown, N.J.*
Digna Alexandra Rivera Costanza, 25, New York, N.Y.*
Charles Gregory Costello, 46, Old Bridge, N.J.*
Michael S. Costello, 27, Hoboken, N.J.*
Conrod K.H. Cottoy, 51, New York, N.Y.*
Martin Coughlan, 54, New York, N.Y.*
Sgt. John Gerard Coughlin, 43, Pomona, N.Y.*
Timothy John Coughlin, 42, New York, N.Y.*
James E. Cove, 48, Rockville Centre, N.Y.*
Andre Cox, 29, New York, N.Y.
Frederick John Cox, 27, New York, N.Y.*
James Raymond Coyle, 26, New York, N.Y.*
Michelle Coyle-Eulau, 38, Garden City, N.Y.*
Anne M. Cramer, 47, New York, N.Y.*
Christopher Seton Cramer, 34, Manahawkin, N.J.*
Denise Crant, 46, Hackensack, N.J.*
Robert James Crawford, 62, New York, N.Y.*
James L. Crawford, 33, Madison, N.J.*
Joanne Mary Cregan, 32, New York, N.Y.*
Lucia Crifasi, 51, Glendale, N.Y.*
Lt. John Crisci, 48, Holbrook, N.Y.*
Daniel Hal Crisman, 25, New York, N.Y.*
Dennis A. Cross, 60, Islip Terrace, N.Y.*
Helen Crossin-Kittle, 34, Larchmont, N.Y.*
Kevin Raymond Crotty, 43, Summit, N.J.
Thomas G. Crotty, 42, Rockville Centre, N.Y.*
John Crowe, 57, Rutherford, N.J.*
Welles Remy Crowther, 24, Upper Nyack, N.Y.*
Robert L. Cruikshank, 64, New York, N.Y.
Francisco Cruz, 47, New York, N.Y.*
John Robert Cruz, 32, Jersey City, N.J.*
Kenneth John Cubas, 48, Woodstock, N.Y.*
Richard Joseph Cudina, 46, Glen Gardner, N.J.*
Neil James Cudmore, 38, Port Washington, N.Y.*
Thomas Patrick Cullen, 31, New York, N.Y.*
Joan McConnell Cullinan, 47, Scarsdale, N.Y.*
Joyce Cummings, 65*
Brian Thomas Cummins, 38, Manasquan, N.J.*
Nilton Albuquerque Fernao Cunha, 41
Michael Joseph Cunningham, 39, Princeton Junction, N.J.*
Robert Curatolo, 31, New York, N.Y.*
Laurence Curia, 41, Garden City, N.Y.*
Paul Dario Curioli, 53, Norwalk, Conn.*
Beverly Curry, 41, New York, N.Y.*
Sgt. Michael Curtin, 45, Medford, N.Y.*
Gavin Cushny, 47, Hoboken, N.J.*
Caleb Arron Dack, 39, Montclair, N.J.*
Carlos S. DaCosta, 41, Elizabeth, N.J.*
John D\'Allara, 47, Pearl River, N.Y.*
Vincent D\'Amadeo, 36, East Patchoque, N.Y.*
Thomas A. Damaskinos, 33, Matawan, N.J.*
Jack L. D\'Ambrosi, 45, Woodcliff Lake, N.J.
Jeannine Marie Damiani-Jones, 28, New York, N.Y.*
Patrick W. Danahy, 35, Yorktown Heights, N.Y.*
Nana Kwuku Danso, 47, New York, N.Y.
Mary D\'Antonio, 55, New York, N.Y.
Vincent G. Danz, 38, Farmingdale, N.Y.*
Dwight Donald Darcy, 55, Bronxville, N.Y.*
Elizabeth Ann Darling, 28, Newark, N.J.*
Annette Andrea Dataram, 25, New York, N.Y.*
Lt. Edward Alexander D\'Atri, 38, New York, N.Y.*
Michael D. D\'Auria, 25, New York, N.Y.*
Lawrence Davidson, 51, New York, N.Y.*
Michael Allen Davidson, 27, Westfield, N.J.*
Scott Matthew Davidson, 33, New York, N.Y.*
Titus Davidson, 55, New York, N.Y.
Niurka Davila, 47, New York, N.Y.*
Clinton Davis, 38, New York, N.Y.*
Wayne Terrial Davis, 29, Fort Meade, Md.*
Calvin Dawson, 46, New York, N.Y.*
Anthony Richard Dawson, 32, Southampton, Hampshire, England*
Edward James Day, 45, New York, N.Y.*
Emerita (Emy) De La Pena, 32, New York, N.Y.*
Melanie Louise De Vere, 30, London, England*
William T. Dean, 35, Floral Park, N.Y.*
Robert J. DeAngelis, 48, West Hempstead, N.Y.*
Thomas P. Deangelis, 51, Westbury, N.Y.*
Tara Debek, 35, Babylon, N.Y.*
Anna Debin, 30, East Farmingdale, N.Y.*
James V. DeBlase, 45, Manalapan, N.J.*
Paul DeCola, 39, Ridgewood, N.Y.*
Simon Dedvukaj, 26, Mohegan Lake, N.Y.*
Jason Christopher DeFazio, 29, New York, N.Y.*
David A. Defeo, 37, New York, N.Y.*
Jennifer DeJesus, 23, New York, N.Y.*
Monique E. DeJesus, 28, New York, N.Y.*
Nereida DeJesus, 30, New York, N.Y.*
Donald A. Delapenha, 37, Allendale, N.J.*
Vito Joseph Deleo, 41, New York, N.Y.*
Danielle Delie, 47, New York, N.Y.*
Colleen Ann Deloughery, 41, Bayonne, N.J.*
Francis (Frank) Albert DeMartini, 49, New York, N.Y.*
Anthony Demas, 61, New York, N.Y.*
Martin DeMeo, 47, Farmingville, N.Y.*
Francis X. Deming, 47, Franklin Lakes, N.J.*
Carol K. Demitz, 49, New York, N.Y.*
Kevin Dennis, 43, Peapack, N.J.
Thomas F. Dennis, 43, Setauket, N.Y.*
Jean C. DePalma, 42, Newfoundland, N.J.*
Jose Nicolas Depena, 42, New York, N.Y.
Robert J. Deraney, 43, New York, N.Y.*
Michael DeRienzo, 37, Hoboken, N.J.*
David Paul Derubbio, 38, New York, N.Y.*
Jemal Legesse DeSantis, 28, Jersey City, N.J.*
Christian L. DeSimone, 23, Ringwood, N.J.*
Edward DeSimone, 36, Atlantic Highlands, N.J.*
Lt. Andrew Desperito, 44, Patchogue, N.Y.*
Michael Jude D\'Esposito, 32, Morganville, N.J.*
Cindy Ann Deuel, 28, New York, N.Y.*
Jerry DeVito, 66, New York, N.Y.*
Robert P. Devitt, 36, Plainsboro, N.J.*
Dennis Lawrence Devlin, 51, Washingtonville, N.Y.*
Gerard Dewan, 35, New York, N.Y.*
Simon Suleman Ali Kassamali Dhanani, 62, Hartsdale, N.Y.*
Michael L. DiAgostino, 41, Garden City, N.Y.*
Matthew Diaz, 33, New York, N.Y.*
Nancy Diaz, 28, New York, N.Y.
Obdulio Ruiz Diaz, 44, New York, N.Y.*
Lourdes Galletti Diaz, 32, New York, N.Y.*
Michael Diaz-Piedra, 49*
Judith Belguese Diaz-Sierra, 32, Bay Shore, N.Y.*
Patricia F. DiChiaro, 63, New York, N.Y.*
Joseph Dermot Dickey, 50, Manhasset, N.Y.*
Lawrence Patrick Dickinson, 35, Morganville, N.J.*
Michael David Diehl, 48, Brick, N.J.*
John DiFato, 39, New York, N.Y.*
Vincent F. DiFazio, 43, Hampton, N.J.*
Carl DiFranco, 27, New York, N.Y.*
Donald J. DiFranco, 43, New York, N.Y.*
Debra Ann DiMartino, 36, New York, N.Y.*
Stephen P. Dimino, 48, Basking Ridge, N.J.*
William J. Dimmling, 47, Garden City, N.Y.*
Christopher Dincuff, 31, Jersey City, N.J.*
Jeffrey M. Dingle, 32, New York, N.Y.*
Anthony DiOnisio, 38, Glen Rock, N.J.*
George DiPasquale, 33, New York, N.Y.*
Joseph DiPilato, 57, New York, N.Y.*
Douglas Frank DiStefano, 24, Hoboken, N.J.*
Ramzi A. Doany, 35, Bayonne, N.J., Jordanian*
John J. Doherty, 58, Hartsdale, N.Y.*
Melissa C. Doi, 32, New York, N.Y.*
Brendan Dolan, 37, Glen Rock, N.J.*
Neil Dollard, 28, Hoboken, N.J.*
James Joseph Domanico, 56, New York, N.Y.*
Benilda Pascua Domingo, 37, New York, N.Y.
Charles (Carlos) Dominguez, 34, East Meadow, N.Y.*
Geronimo (Jerome) Mark Patrick Dominguez, 37, Holtsville, N.Y.*
Lt. Kevin W. Donnelly, 43, New York, N.Y.*
Jacqueline Donovan, 34, New York, N.Y.*
Stephen Dorf, 39, New Milford, N.J.*
Thomas Dowd, 37, Monroe, N.Y.*
Lt. Kevin Christopher Dowdell, 46, New York, N.Y.*
Mary Yolanda Dowling, 46, New York, N.Y.*
Raymond M. Downey, 63, Deer Park, N.Y.*
Joseph M. Doyle, 25, New York, N.Y.*
Frank Joseph Doyle, 39, Englewood, N.J.*
Randy Drake, 37, Lee\'s Summit, Mo.*
Stephen Patrick Driscoll, 38, Lake Carmel, N.Y.*
Mirna A. Duarte, 31, New York, N.Y.
Luke A. Dudek, 50, Livingston, N.J.*
Christopher Michael Duffy, 23, New York, N.Y.*
Gerard Duffy, 53, Manorville, N.Y.*
Michael Joseph Duffy, 29, Northport, N.Y.*
Thomas W. Duffy, 52, Pittsford, N.Y.
Antoinette Duger, 44, Belleville, N.J.*
Jackie Sayegh Duggan, 34*
Sareve Dukat, 53, New York, N.Y.*
Christopher Joseph Dunne, 28, Mineola, N.Y.
Richard A. Dunstan, 54, New Providence, N.J.*
Patrick Thomas Dwyer, 37, Nissequogue, N.Y.*
Joseph Anthony Eacobacci, 26, New York, N.Y.*
John Bruce Eagleson, 53, Middlefield, Conn.*
Robert D. Eaton, 37, Manhasset, N.Y.*
Dean P. Eberling, 44, Cranford, N.J.*
Margaret Ruth Echtermann, 33, Hoboken, N.J.*
Paul Robert Eckna, 28, West New York, N.J.
Constantine (Gus) Economos, 41, New York, N.Y.*
Dennis Michael Edwards, 35, Huntington, N.Y.*
Michael Hardy Edwards, 33, New York, N.Y.*
Lisa Egan, 31, Cliffside Park, N.J.*
Capt. Martin Egan, 36, New York, N.Y.*
Michael Egan, 51, Middletown, N.J.*
Christine Egan, 55, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada*
Samantha Egan, 24, Jersey City, N.J.*
Carole Eggert, 60, New York, N.Y.
Lisa Caren Weinstein Ehrlich, 36, New York, N.Y.*
John Ernst (Jack) Eichler, 69, Cedar Grove, N.J.*
Eric Adam Eisenberg, 32, Commack, N.Y.*
Daphne F. Elder, 36, Newark, N.J.*
Michael J. Elferis, 27, College Point, N.Y.*
Mark J. Ellis, 26, South Huntington, N.Y.*
Valerie Silver Ellis, 46, New York, N.Y.*
Albert Alfy William Elmarry, 30, North Brunswick, N.J.*
Edgar H. Emery, 45, Clifton, N.J.*
Doris Suk-Yuen Eng, 30, New York, N.Y.*
Christopher S. Epps, 29, New York, N.Y.*
Ulf Ramm Ericson, 79, Greenwich, Conn.*
Erwin L. Erker, 41, Farmingdale, N.Y.*
William J. Erwin, 30, Verona, N.J.*
Sarah (Ali) Escarcega, 35, New York, N.Y.*
Jose Espinal, 31
Fanny M. Espinoza, 29, Teaneck, N.J.*
Francis Esposito, 32, New York, N.Y.*
Lt. Michael Esposito, 41, New York, N.Y.*
William Esposito, 51, Bellmore, N.Y.*
Brigette Ann Esposito, 34, New York, N.Y.*
Ruben Esquilin, 35, New York, N.Y.*
Sadie Ette, 36, New York, N.Y.*
Barbara G. Etzold, 43, Jersey City, N.J.*
Eric Brian Evans, 31, Weehawken, N.J.*
Robert Edward Evans, 36, Franklin Square, N.Y.*
Meredith Emily June Ewart, 29, Hoboken, N.J.*
Catherine K. Fagan, 58, New York, N.Y.*
Patricia M. Fagan, 55, Toms River, N.J.*
Keith G. Fairben, 24, Floral Park, N.Y.*
William Fallon, 38, Coram, N.Y.*
William F. Fallon, 53, Rocky Hill, N.J.*
Anthony J. Fallone, 39, New York, N.Y.*
Dolores B. Fanelli, 38, Farmingville, N.Y.*
John Joseph Fanning, 54, West Hempstead, N.Y.*
Kathleen (Kit) Faragher, 33, Denver, Colo.*
Capt. Thomas Farino, 37, Bohemia, N.Y.*
Nancy Carole Farley, 45, Jersey City, N.J.*
Elizabeth Ann (Betty) Farmer, 62, New York, N.Y.*
Douglas Farnum, 33, New York, N.Y.*
John W. Farrell, 41, Basking Ridge, N.J.
Terrence Patrick Farrell, 45, Huntington, N.Y.*
John G. Farrell, 32, New York, N.Y.*
Capt. Joseph Farrelly, 47, New York, N.Y.*
Thomas P. Farrelly, 54, East Northport, N.Y.*
Syed Abdul Fatha, 54, Newark, N.J.*
Christopher Faughnan, 37, South Orange, N.J.*
Wendy R. Faulkner, 47, Mason, Ohio*
Shannon M. Fava, 30, New York, N.Y.*
Bernard D. Favuzza, 52, Suffern, N.Y.*
Robert Fazio, 41, Freeport, N.Y.*
Ronald C. Fazio, 57, Closter, N.J.*
William Feehan, 72, New York, N.Y.*
Francis J. (Frank) Feely, 41, Middletown, N.Y.*
Garth E. Feeney, 28, New York, N.Y.*
Sean B. Fegan, 34, New York, N.Y.*
Lee S. Fehling, 28, Wantagh, N.Y.*
Peter Feidelberg, 34, Hoboken, N.J.*
Alan D. Feinberg, 48, New York, N.Y.*
Rosa Maria Feliciano, 30, New York, N.Y.*
Edward T. Fergus, 40, Wilton, Conn.
George Ferguson, 54, Teaneck, N.J.
Henry Fernandez, 23, New York, N.Y.*
Judy H. Fernandez, 27, Parlin, N.J.*
Jose Manuel Contreras Fernandez, El Aguacate, Jalisco, Mexico
Elisa Giselle Ferraina, 27, London, England*
Anne Marie Sallerin Ferreira, 29, Jersey City, N.J.*
Robert John Ferris, 63, Garden City, N.Y.*
David Francis Ferrugio, 46, Middletown, N.J.
Louis V. Fersini, 38, Basking Ridge, N.J.*
Michael David Ferugio, 37, New York, N.Y.*
Bradley James Fetchet, 24, New York, N.Y.*
Jennifer Louise Fialko, 29, Teaneck, N.J.*
Kristen Fiedel, 27, New York, N.Y.*
Samuel Fields, 36, New York, N.Y.*
Michael Bradley Finnegan, 37, Basking Ridge, N.J.
Timothy J. Finnerty, 33, Glen Rock, N.J.*
Michael Curtis Fiore, 46, New York, N.Y.*
Stephen J. Fiorelli, 43, Aberdeen, N.J.*
Paul M. Fiori, 31, Yorktown Heights, N.Y.*
John Fiorito, 40, Stamford, Conn.*
Lt. John R. Fischer, 46, New York, N.Y.*
Andrew Fisher, 42, New York, N.Y.*
Thomas J. Fisher, 36, Union, N.J.*
Bennett Lawson Fisher, 58, Stamford, Conn.
John Roger Fisher, 46, Bayonne, N.J.*
Lucy Fishman, 37, New York, N.Y.*
Ryan D. Fitzgerald, 26, New York, N.Y.*
Thomas Fitzpatrick, 35, Tuckahoe, N.Y.*
Richard P. Fitzsimons, 57, Lynbrook, N.Y.*
Salvatore A. Fiumefreddo, 47, Manalapan, N.J.*
Christina Donovan Flannery, 26, New York, N.Y.*
Eileen Flecha, 33, New York, N.Y.*
Andre G. Fletcher, 37, North Babylon, N.Y.*
Carl Flickinger, 38, Conyers, N.Y.*
John Joseph Florio, 33, Oceanside, N.Y.*
Joseph W. Flounders, 46, East Stroudsburg, Pa.*
David Fodor, 38, Garrison, N.Y.*
Lt. Michael N. Fodor, 53, Warwick, N.Y.*
Steven Mark Fogel, 40, Westfield, N.Y.*
Thomas Foley, 32, West Nyack, N.Y.*
David Fontana, 37, New York, N.Y.*
Chih Min (Dennis) Foo, 40, Holmdel, N.J.*
Del Rose Forbes-Cheatham, 48, New York, N.Y.*
Godwin Forde, 39, New York, N.Y.*
Donald A. Foreman, 53, New York, N.Y.*
Christopher Hugh Forsythe, 44, Basking Ridge, N.J.*
Claudia Alicia Martinez Foster, 26, New York, N.Y.*
Noel J. Foster, 40, Bridgewater, N.J.*
Ana Fosteris, 58, Coram, N.Y.*
Robert J. Foti, 42, Albertson, N.Y.*
Jeffrey L. Fox, 40, Cranbury, N.J.*
Virginia Fox, 58, New York, N.Y.*
Virgin (Lucy) Francis, 62, New York, N.Y.*
Pauline Francis, 57, New York, N.Y.*
Joan Francis
Gary J. Frank, 35, South Amboy, N.J.*
Morton Frank, 31, New York, N.Y.
Peter Christopher Frank, 29, New York, N.Y.*
Richard K. Fraser, 32, New York, N.Y.*
Kevin Joseph Frawley, 34, Bronxville, N.Y.*
Clyde Frazier, 41, New York, N.Y.*
Lillian I. Frederick, 46, Teaneck, N.J.*
Andrew Fredericks, 40, Suffern, N.Y.*
Tamitha Freemen, 35, New York, N.Y.*
Brett O. Freiman, 29, Roslyn, N.Y.*
Lt. Peter L. Freund, 45, Westtown, N.Y.*
Arlene E. Fried, 49, Roslyn Heights, N.Y.*
Alan Wayne Friedlander, 52, Yorktown Heights, N.Y.*
Andrew K. Friedman, 44, Woodbury, N.Y.*
Gregg J. Froehner, 46, Chester, N.J.*
Peter Christian Fry, 36, Wilton, Conn.*
Clement Fumando, 59, New York, N.Y.*
Steven Elliot Furman, 40, Wesley Hills, N.Y.*
Paul James Furmato, 37, Colts Neck, N.J.*
Fredric Gabler, 30, New York, N.Y.*
Richard S. Gabrielle, 50, West Haven, Conn.*
James Andrew Gadiel, 23, New York, N.Y.*
Pamela Gaff, 51, Robinsville, N.J.
Ervin Vincent Gailliard, 42, New York, N.Y.*
Deanna L. Galante, 32, New York, N.Y.*
Grace Galante, 29, New York, N.Y.*
Anthony Edward Gallagher, 41, New York, N.Y.*
Daniel James Gallagher, 23, Red Bank, N.J.*
John Patrick Gallagher, 31, Yonkers, N.Y.*
Cono E. Gallo, 30, New York, N.Y.*
Vincenzo Gallucci, 36, Monroe Township, N.J.*
Thomas Edward Galvin, 32, New York, N.Y.*
Giovanna (Genni) Gambale, 27, New York, N.Y.*
Thomas Gambino, 48, Babylon, N.Y.*
Giann F. Gamboa, 26, New York, N.Y.*
Peter J. Ganci, 55, North Massapequa, N.Y.*
Claude Michael Gann, 41, Roswell, Ga.*
Lt. Charles William Garbarini, 44, Pleasantville, N.Y.*
Cesar Garcia, 36, New York, N.Y.*
David Garcia, 40, Freeport, N.Y.*
Jorge Luis Morron Garcia, 38, New York, N.Y.*
Juan Garcia, 50, New York, N.Y.*
Marlyn C. Garcia, 21, New York, N.Y.*
Christopher Gardner, 36, Darien, Conn.*
Douglas B. Gardner, 39, New York, N.Y.*
Harvey J. Gardner, 35, Lakewood, N.J.*
Thomas A. Gardner, 39, Oceanside, N.Y.*
Jeffrey B. Gardner, 36, Hoboken, N.J.*
William Arthur Gardner, 45, Lynbrook, N.Y.*
Francesco Garfi, 29, New York, N.Y.*
Rocco Gargano, 28, Bayside, N.Y.*
James M. Gartenberg, 36, New York, N.Y.*
Matthew David Garvey, 37*
Bruce Gary, 51, Bellmore, N.Y.*
Palmina Delli Gatti, 33, New York, N.Y.*
Boyd A. Gatton, 38, Jersey City, N.J.*
Donald Richard Gavagan, 35, New York, N.Y.*
Terence D. Gazzani, 24, New York, N.Y.*
Gary Geidel, 44, New York, N.Y.*
Paul Hamilton Geier, 36, Farmingdale, N.Y.*
Julie M. Geis, 44, Lees Summit, Mo.*
Peter Gelinas, 34, New York, N.Y.*
Steven Paul Geller, 52, New York, N.Y.*
Howard G. Gelling, 28, New York, N.Y.
Peter Victor Genco, 36, Rockville Centre, N.Y.*
Steven Gregory Genovese, 37, Basking Ridge, N.J.*
Alayne F. Gentul, 44, Mountain Lakes, N.J.*
Edward F. Geraghty, 45, Rockville Centre, N.Y.*
Suzanne Geraty, 30, New York, N.Y.*
Ralph Gerhardt, 33, New York, N.Y.*
Robert J. Gerlich, 56, Monroe, Conn.*
Denis P. Germain, 33, Tuxedo Park, N.Y.*
Marina R. Gertsberg, 25, New York, N.Y.*
Susan M. Getzendanner, 57, New York, N.Y.*
James Gerard Geyer, 41, Rockville Centre, N.Y.*
Joseph M. Giaccone, 43, Monroe, N.J.*
Lt. Vincent Francis Giammona, 40, Valley Stream, N.Y.*
Debra L. Gibbon, 43, Hackettstown, N.J.*
James A. Giberson, 43, New York, N.Y.*
Craig Neil Gibson, 37, New York, N.Y.*
Ronnie Gies, 43, Merrick, N.Y.*
Laura A. Giglio, 35, Oceanside, N.Y.*
Andrew Clive Gilbert, 39, Califon, N.J.
Timothy Paul Gilbert, 35, Lebanon, N.J.
Paul Stuart Gilbey, 39, Chatham, N.J.*
Paul John Gill, 34, New York, N.Y.*
Mark Y. Gilles, 33, New York, N.Y.
Evan H. Gillette, 40, New York, N.Y.*
Ronald Gilligan, 43, Norwalk, Conn.*
Sgt. Rodney C. Gillis, 34, New York, N.Y.*
Laura Gilly, 32, New York, N.Y.*
Lt. John F. Ginley, 37, Warwick, N.Y.*
Jeffrey Giordano, 46, New York, N.Y.*
John Giordano, 46, Newburgh, N.Y.*
Donna Marie Giordano, 44, Parlin, N.J.*
Steven A. Giorgetti, 43, Manhasset, N.Y.*
Martin Giovinazzo, 34, New York, N.Y.*
Kum-Kum Girolamo, 41, New York, N.Y.*
Salvatore Gitto, 44, Manalapan, N.J.*
Cynthia Giugliano, 46, Nesconset, N.Y.*
Mon Gjonbalaj, 65, New York, N.Y.*
Dianne Gladstone, 55, New York, N.Y.*
Keith Alexander Glascoe, 38, New York, N.Y.*
Thomas I. Glasser, 40, Summit, N.J.*
Harry Glenn, 38, Piscataway, N.J.*
Barry H. Glick, 55, Wayne, N.J.*
Steven Lawrence Glick, 42, Greenwich, Conn.*
John T. Gnazzo, 32, New York, N.Y.*
William (Bill) Robert Godshalk, 35, New York, N.Y.*
Michael Gogliormella, 43, New Providence, N.J.*
Brian Fredric Goldberg, 26, Union, N.J.*
Jeffrey Grant Goldflam, 48, Melville, N.Y.*
Michelle Herman Goldstein, 31, New York, N.Y.*
Monica Goldstein, 25, New York, N.Y.*
Steven Goldstein, 35, Princeton, N.J.*
Andrew H. Golkin, 30, New York, N.Y.*
Dennis James Gomes, 40, New York, N.Y.*
Enrique Antonio Gomez, 42, New York, N.Y.
Jose Bienvenido Gomez, 45, New York, N.Y.
Manuel Gomez, 42, New York, N.Y.*
Wilder Gomez, 38, New York, N.Y.*
Jenine Gonzalez, 27, New York, N.Y.*
Joel Guevara Gonzalez, 23, Aguascalientes, Aguascalientes, Mexico
Rosa J. Gonzalez, 32, Jersey City, N.J.*
Mauricio Gonzalez, 27, New York, N.Y.*
Calvin J. Gooding, 38, Riverside, N.Y.*
Harry Goody, 50, New York, N.Y.*
Kiran Reddy Gopu, 24, Bridgeport, Conn.*
Catherine Carmen Gorayeb, 41, New York, N.Y.*
Kerene Gordon, 43, New York, N.Y.
Sebastian Gorki, 27, New York, N.Y.*
Thomas E. Gorman, 41, Middlesex, N.J.*
Kieran Gorman, 35, Yonkers, N.Y.*
Michael Edward Gould, 29, Hoboken, N.J.*
Yugi Goya, 42, Rye, N.Y.*
Jon Richard Grabowski, 33, New York, N.Y.*
Christopher Michael Grady, 39, Cranford, N.J.*
Edwin John Graf, 48, Rowayton, Conn.*
David M. Graifman, 40, New York, N.Y.*
Gilbert Granados, 51, Hicksville, N.Y.*
Elvira Granitto, 43, New York, N.Y.
Winston Arthur Grant, 59, West Hempstead, N.Y.*
Christopher Stewart Gray, 32, Weehawken, N.J.*
James Michael Gray, 34, New York, N.Y.*
Linda Mair Grayling, 44, New York, N.Y.*
John Michael Grazioso, 41, Middletown, N.J.*
Timothy Grazioso, 42, Gulf Stream, Fla.*
Derrick Arthur Green, 44, New York, N.Y.*
Wade Brian Green, 42, Westbury, N.Y.*
Elaine Myra Greenberg, 56, New York, N.Y.*
Gayle R. Greene, 51, Montville, N.J.*
James Arthur Greenleaf, 32, New York, N.Y.*
Eileen Marsha Greenstein, 52, Morris Plains, N.J.*
Elizabeth (Lisa) Martin Gregg, 52, New York, N.Y.
Donald H. Gregory, 62, Ramsey, N.J.*
Florence M. Gregory, 38, New York, N.Y.*
Denise Gregory, 39, New York, N.Y.*
Pedro (David) Grehan, 35, Hoboken, N.J.*
John M. Griffin, 38, Waldwick, N.J.*
Tawanna Griffin, 30, New York, N.Y.*
Joan D. Griffith, 39, Willingboro, N.J.*
Warren Grifka, 54, New York, N.Y.*
Ramon Grijalvo, 58*
Joseph F. Grillo, 46, New York, N.Y.*
David Grimner, 51, Merrick, N.Y.*
Kenneth Grouzalis, 56, Lyndhurst, N.J.*
Joseph Grzelak, 52, New York, N.Y.*
Matthew J. Grzymalski, 34, New Hyde Park, N.Y.*
Robert Joseph Gschaar, 55, Spring Valley, N.Y.*
Liming (Michael) Gu, 34, Piscataway, N.J.*
Jose A. Guadalupe, 37, New York, N.Y.*
Yan Zhu (Cindy) Guan, 25, New York, N.Y.*
Geoffrey E. Guja, 47, Lindenhurst, N.Y.*
Lt. Joseph Gullickson, 37, New York, N.Y.*
Babita Guman, 33, New York, N.Y.*
Douglas B. Gurian, 38, Tenafly, N.J.*
Philip T. Guza, 54, Sea Bright, N.J.*
Barbara Guzzardo, 49, Glendale, N.Y.*
Peter Gyulavary, 44, Warwick, N.Y.*
Gary Robert Haag, 36, Ossining, N.Y.*
Andrea Lyn Haberman, 25, Chicago, Ill.*
Barbara M. Habib, 49, New York, N.Y.*
Philip Haentzler, 49, New York, N.Y.*
Nizam A. Hafiz, 32, New York, N.Y.*
Karen Hagerty, 34, New York, N.Y.*
Steven Hagis, 31, New York, N.Y.*
Mary Lou Hague, 26, New York, N.Y.*
David Halderman, 40, New York, N.Y.*
Maile Rachel Hale, 26, Cambridge, Mass.*
Richard Hall, 49, Purchase, N.Y.*
Vaswald George Hall, 50, New York, N.Y.*
Robert John Halligan, 59, Basking Ridge, N.J.*
Lt. Vincent Gerard Halloran, 43, North Salem, N.Y.*
James D. Halvorson, 56, Greenwich, Conn.*
Mohammad Salman Hamdani, 23, New York, N.Y.*
Felicia Hamilton, 62, New York, N.Y.
Robert Hamilton, 43, Washingtonville, N.Y.*
Frederic Kim Han, 45, Marlboro, N.J.*
Christopher James Hanley, 34, New York, N.Y.*
Sean Hanley, 35, New York, N.Y.*
Valerie Joan Hanna, 57, Freeville, N.Y.*
Thomas Hannafin, 36, New York, N.Y.*
Kevin James Hannaford, 32, Basking Ridge, N.J.*
Michael L. Hannan, 34, Lynbrook, N.Y.*
Dana Hannon, 29, Suffern, N.Y.*
Vassilios G. Haramis, 56, New York, N.Y.*
James A. Haran, 41, Malverne, N.Y.*
Jeffrey P. Hardy, 46, New York, N.Y.*
Timothy John Hargrave, 38, Readington, N.J.*
Daniel Harlin, 41, Kent, N.Y.*
Frances Haros, 76, New York, N.Y.*
Lt. Harvey L. Harrell, 49, New York, N.Y.*
Lt. Stephen Gary Harrell, 44, Warwick, N.Y.*
Stewart D. Harris, 52, Marlboro, N.J.*
Aisha Harris, 22, New York, N.Y.*
John Patrick Hart, 38, Danville, Calif.*
John Clinton Hartz, 64, Basking Ridge, N.J.
Emeric J. Harvey, 56, Montclair, N.J.*
Capt. Thomas Theodore Haskell, 37, Massapequa, N.Y.*
Timothy Haskell, 34, Seaford, N.Y.*
Joseph John Hasson, 34, New York, N.Y.*
Capt. Terence S. Hatton, 41, New York, N.Y.*
Leonard William Hatton, 45, Ridgefield Park, N.J.*
Michael Helmut Haub, 34, Roslyn Heights, N.Y.*
Timothy Aaron Haviland, 41, Oceanside, N.Y.*
Donald G. Havlish, 53, Yardley, Pa.*
Anthony Hawkins, 30, New York, N.Y.
Nobuhiro Hayatsu, 36, Scarsdale, N.Y.*
Philip Hayes, 67, Northport, N.Y.*
William Ward Haynes, 35, Rye, N.Y.*
Scott Hazelcorn, 29, Hoboken, N.J.*
Lt. Michael K. Healey, 42, East Patchogue, N.Y.*
Roberta Bernstein Heber, 60, New York, N.Y.*
Charles Francis Xavier Heeran, 23, Belle Harbor, N.Y.*
John Heffernan, 37, New York, N.Y.*
Howard Joseph Heller, 37, Ridgefield, Conn.*
JoAnn L. Heltibridle, 46, Springfield, N.J.*
Mark F. Hemschoot, 45, Red Bank, N.J.*
Ronnie Lee Henderson, 52, Newburgh, N.Y.*
Janet Hendricks, 48, New York, N.Y.
Brian Hennessey, 35, Ringoes, N.J.
Michelle Marie Henrique, 27, New York, N.Y.*
Joseph P. Henry, 25, New York, N.Y.*
William Henry, 49, New York, N.Y.*
John Henwood, 35, New York, N.Y.
Robert Allan Hepburn, 39, Union, N.J.*
Mary (Molly) Herencia, 47, New York, N.Y.*
Lindsay Coates Herkness, 58, New York, N.Y.*
Harvey Robert Hermer, 59, New York, N.Y.*
Claribel Hernandez, 31, New York, N.Y.*
Norberto Hernandez, 42, New York, N.Y.*
Raul Hernandez, 51, New York, N.Y.*
Gary Herold, 44, Farmingdale, N.Y.*
Jeffrey A. Hersch, 53, New York, N.Y.*
Thomas Hetzel, 33, Elmont, N.Y.*
Capt. Brian Hickey, 47, New York, N.Y.*
Ysidro Hidalgo-Tejada, 47, New York, N.Y., Dominican Republic*
Lt. Timothy Higgins, 43, Farmingville, N.Y.*
Robert D. Higley, 29, New Fairfield, Conn.*
Todd Russell Hill, 34, Boston, Mass.*
Clara Victorine Hinds, 52, New York, N.Y.*
Neal Hinds, 28, New York, N.Y.*
Mark D. Hindy, 28, New York, N.Y.*
Richard Bruce Van Hine, 48, Greenwood Lake, N.Y.*
Katsuyuki Hirai, 32, Hartsdale, N.Y.
Heather Malia Ho, 32, New York, N.Y.*
Tara Yvette Hobbs, 31, New York, N.Y.*
Thomas A. Hobbs, 41, Baldwin, N.Y.*
James L. Hobin, 47, Marlborough, Conn.*
Robert Wayne Hobson, 36, New Providence, N.J.*
DaJuan Hodges, 29, New York, N.Y.*
Ronald George Hoerner, 58, Massapequa Park, N.Y.*
Patrick Aloysius Hoey, 53, Middletown, N.J.*
Stephen G. Hoffman, 36, Long Beach, N.Y.*
Marcia Hoffman, 52, New York, N.Y.
Frederick J. Hoffmann, 53, Freehold, N.J.*
Michele L. Hoffmann, 27, Freehold, N.J.*
Judith Florence Hofmiller, 53, Brookfield, Conn.*
Thomas Warren Hohlweck, 57, Harrison, N.Y.*
Jonathan R. Hohmann, 48, New York, N.Y.*
Joseph Francis Holland, 32, Glen Rock, N.J.*
John Holland, 30
Elizabeth Holmes, 42, New York, N.Y.*
Thomas P. Holohan, 36, Chester, N.Y.*
Bradley Hoorn, 22, New York, N.Y.*
James P. Hopper, 51, Farmingdale, N.Y.*
Montgomery McCullough Hord, 46, Pelham, N.Y.*
Michael Horn, 27, Lynbrook, N.Y.*
Matthew D. Horning, 26, Hoboken, N.J.*
Robert L. Horohoe, 31, New York, N.Y.*
Aaron Horwitz, 24, New York, N.Y.*
Charles J. Houston, 42, New York, N.Y.*
Uhuru G. Houston, 32, Englewood, N.J.*
George Howard, 45, Hicksville, N.Y.*
Steven L. Howell, 36, New York, N.Y.*
Michael C. Howell, 60, New York, N.Y.*
Jennifer L. Howley, 34, New Hyde Park, N.Y.*
Milagros \"Millie\" Hromada, 35, New York, N.Y.*
Marian Hrycak, 56, New York, N.Y.*
Stephen Huczko, 44, Bethlehem, N.J.*
Kris R. Hughes, 30, Nesconset, N.Y.*
Melissa Harrington Hughes, 31, San Francisco, Calif.*
Thomas F. Hughes, 46, Spring Lake Heights, N.J.*
Timothy Robert Hughes, 43, Madison, N.J.*
Paul R. Hughes, 38, Stamford, Conn.*
Robert T. \"Bobby\" Hughes, 23, Sayreville, N.J.*
Susan Huie, 43, Fair Lawn, N.J.*
Mychal Lamar Hulse, 30, New York, N.Y.*
William C. Hunt, 32, Norwalk, Conn.*
Joseph G. Hunter, 31, South Hempstead, N.Y.*
Robert Hussa, 51, Roslyn, N.Y.*
Capt. Walter Hynes, 46, Belle Harbor, N.Y.*
Thomas E. Hynes, 28, Norwalk, Conn.*
Joseph Anthony Ianelli, 28, Hoboken, N.J.*
Zuhtu Ibis, 25, Clifton, N.J.*
Jonathan Lee Ielpi, 29, Great Neck, N.Y.*
Michael Patrick Iken, 37, New York, N.Y.*
Daniel Ilkanayev, 36, New York, N.Y.*
Capt. Frederick Ill, 49, Pearl River, N.Y.*
Abraham Nethanel Ilowitz, 51, New York, N.Y.
Anthony P. Infante, 47, Chatham, N.J.*
Louis S. Inghilterra, 45, New Castle, N.Y.*
Christopher N. Ingrassia, 28, Watchung, N.J.*
Paul Innella, 33, East Brunswick, N.J.*
Stephanie V. Irby, 38, New York, N.Y.*
Douglas Irgang, 32, New York, N.Y.*
Todd A. Isaac, 29, New York, N.Y.*
Erik Hans Isbrandtsen, 30, New York, N.Y.*
Taizo Ishikawa, 50
Aram Iskenderian, 41, Merrick, N.Y.*
John Iskyan, 41, Wilton, Conn.*
Kazushige Ito, 35, New York, N.Y.
Aleksandr Valeryerich Ivantsov, 23, New York, N.Y.
Virginia Jablonski, 49, Matawan, N.J.*
Brooke Alexandra Jackman, 23, New York, N.Y.*
Aaron Jacobs, 27, New York, N.Y.*
Jason Kyle Jacobs, 32, Mendham, N.J.*
Michael Grady Jacobs, 54, Danbury, Conn.*
Ariel Louis Jacobs, 29, Briarcliff Manor, N.Y.*
Steven A. Jacobson, 53, New York, N.Y.*
Ricknauth Jaggernauth, 58, New York, N.Y.*
Jake Denis Jagoda, 24, Huntington, N.Y.*
Yudh V.S. Jain, 54, New City, N.Y.*
Maria Jakubiak, 41, Ridgewood, N.Y.*
Gricelda E. James, 44, Willingboro, N.J.*
Ernest James, 40, New York, N.Y.*
Mark Jardim, 39, New York, N.Y.
Mohammed Jawara, 30, New York, N.Y.*
Francois Jean-Pierre, 58, New York, N.Y.
Maxima Jean-Pierre, 40, Bellport, N.Y.
Paul E. Jeffers, 39, New York, N.Y.*
Joseph Jenkins, 47, New York, N.Y.*
Alan K. Jensen, 49, Wyckoff, N.J.*
Prem N. Jerath, 57, Edison, N.J.*
Farah Jeudy, 32, Spring Valley, N.Y.*
Hweidar Jian, 42, East Brunswick, N.J.*
Eliezer Jimenez, 38, New York, N.Y.*
Luis Jimenez, 25, New York, N.Y.*
Charles Gregory John, 44, New York, N.Y.*
Nicholas John, 42, New York, N.Y.*
Scott M. Johnson, 26, New York, N.Y.*
LaShawana Johnson, 27, New York, N.Y.*
William Johnston, 31, North Babylon, N.Y.*
Arthur Joseph Jones, 37, Ossining, N.Y.
Allison Horstmann Jones, 31, New York, N.Y.*
Brian L. Jones, 44, New York, N.Y.*
Christopher D. Jones, 53, Huntington, N.Y.
Donald T. Jones, 39, Livingston, N.J.*
Donald W. Jones, 43, Fairless Hills, Pa.*
Linda Jones, 50, New York, N.Y.*
Mary S. Jones, 72, New York, N.Y.*
Andrew Jordan, 35, Remsenburg, N.Y.*
Robert Thomas Jordan, 34, Williston, N.Y.*
Ingeborg Joseph, 60, Germany
Karl Henri Joseph, 25, New York, N.Y.*
Stephen Joseph, 39, Franklin Park, N.J.*
Albert Joseph, 79
Jane Eileen Josiah, 47, Bellmore, N.Y.*
Lt. Anthony Jovic, 39, Massapequa, N.Y.*
Angel Luis Juarbe, 35, New York, N.Y.*
Karen Susan Juday, 52, New York, N.Y.*
The Rev. Mychal Judge, 68, New York, N.Y.*
Paul W. Jurgens, 47, Levittown, N.Y.*
Thomas Edward Jurgens, 26, Lawrence, N.Y.*
Kacinga Kabeya, 63, McKinney, Texas
Shashi Kiran Lakshmikantha Kadaba, 25, Hackensack, N.J.*
Gavkharoy Mukhometovna Kamardinova, 26, New York, N.Y.
Shari Kandell, 27, Wyckoff, N.J.*
Howard Lee Kane, 40, Hazlet, N.J.*
Jennifer Lynn Kane, 26, Fair Lawn, N.J.*
Vincent D. Kane, 37, New York, N.Y.*
Joon Koo Kang, 34, Riverdale, N.J.*
Sheldon R. Kanter, 53, Edison, N.J.*
Deborah H. Kaplan, 45, Paramus, N.J.*
Alvin Peter Kappelmann, 57, Green Brook, N.J.*
Charles Karczewski, 34, Union, N.J.*
William A. Karnes, 37, New York, N.Y.*
Douglas G. Karpiloff, 53, Mamaroneck, N.Y.*
Charles L. Kasper, 54, New York, N.Y.*
Andrew Kates, 37, New York, N.Y.*
John Katsimatides, 31, East Marion, N.Y.*
Sgt. Robert Kaulfers, 49, Kenilworth, N.J.*
Don Jerome Kauth, 51, Saratoga Springs, N.Y.*
Hideya Kawauchi, 36, Fort Lee, N.J.*
Edward T. Keane, 66, West Caldwell, N.J.*
Richard M. Keane, 54, Wethersfield, Conn.*
Lisa Kearney-Griffin, 35, Jamaica, N.Y.*
Karol Ann Keasler, 42, New York, N.Y.*
Paul Hanlon Keating, 38, New York, N.Y.*
Leo Russell Keene, 33, Westfield, N.J.*
Joseph J. Keller, 31, Park Ridge, N.J.*
Peter Rodney Kellerman, 35, New York, N.Y.*
Joseph P. Kellett, 37, Riverdale, N.Y.*
Frederick H. Kelley, 57, Huntington, N.Y.*
James Joseph Kelly, 39, Oceanside, N.Y.*
Joseph A. Kelly, 40, Oyster Bay, N.Y.*
Maurice Patrick Kelly, 41, New York, N.Y.*
Richard John Kelly, 50, New York, N.Y.*
Thomas Michael Kelly, 41, Wyckoff, N.J.*
Thomas Richard Kelly, 38, Riverhead, N.Y.*
Thomas W. Kelly, 51, New York, N.Y.*
Timothy C. Kelly, 37, Port Washington, N.Y.*
William Hill Kelly, 30, New York, N.Y.*
Robert C. Kennedy, 55, Toms River, N.J.*
Thomas J. Kennedy, 36, Islip Terrace, N.Y.*
John Keohane, 41, Jersey City, N.J.*
Lt. Ronald T. Kerwin, 42, Levittown, N.Y.*
Howard L. Kestenbaum, 56, Montclair, N.J.*
Douglas D. Ketcham, 27, New York, N.Y.*
Ruth E. Ketler, 42, New York, N.Y.*
Boris Khalif, 30, New York, N.Y.*
Sarah Khan, 32, New York, N.Y.*
Taimour Firaz Khan, 29, New York, N.Y.*
Rajesh Khandelwal, 33, South Plainfield, N.J.*
SeiLai Khoo, 38, Jersey City, N.J.
Michael Kiefer, 25, Hempstead, N.Y.*
Satoshi Kikuchihara, 43, Scarsdale, N.Y.
Andrew Jay-Hoon Kim, 26, Leonia, N.J.*
Lawrence Don Kim, 31, Blue Bell, Pa.*
Mary Jo Kimelman, 34, New York, N.Y.*
Andrew Marshall King, 42, Princeton, N.J.*
Lucille T. King, 59, Ridgewood, N.J.*
Robert King, 36, Bellerose Terrace, N.Y.*
Lisa M. King-Johnson, 34, New York, N.Y.*
Takashi Kinoshita, 46, Rye, N.Y.
Chris Michael Kirby, 21, New York, N.Y.*
Howard (Barry) Kirschbaum, 53, New York, N.Y.*
Glenn Davis Kirwin, 40, Scarsdale, N.Y.*
Richard J. Klares, 59, Somers, N.Y.*
Peter A. Klein, 35, Weehawken, N.J.*
Alan D. Kleinberg, 39, East Brunswick, N.J.*
Karen J. Klitzman, 38, New York, N.Y.*
Ronald Philip Kloepfer, 39, Franklin Square, N.Y.*
Yevgeny Kniazev, 46, New York, N.Y.*
Thomas Patrick Knox, 31, Hoboken, N.J.*
Andrew Knox, 30, Adelaide, Australia*
Rebecca Lee Koborie, 48, Guttenberg, N.J.*
Deborah Kobus, 36, New York, N.Y.*
Gary Edward Koecheler, 57, Harrison, N.Y.*
Frank J. Koestner, 48, New York, N.Y.*
Ryan Kohart, 26, New York, N.Y.*
Vanessa Lynn Kolpak, 21, New York, N.Y.*
Irina Kolpakova, 37, New York, N.Y.*
Suzanne Kondratenko, 27, Chicago, Ill.*
Abdoulaye Kone, 37, New York, N.Y.*
Bon-seok Koo, 42, River Edge, N.J.*
Dorota Kopiczko, 26, Nutley, N.J.*
Scott Kopytko, 32, New York, N.Y.*
Bojan Kostic, 34, New York, N.Y.*
Danielle Kousoulis, 29, New York, N.Y.*
John J. Kren, 52*
William Krukowski, 36, New York, N.Y.*
Lyudmila Ksido, 46, New York, N.Y.*
Shekhar Kumar, 30, New York, N.Y.*
Kenneth Kumpel, 42, Cornwall, N.Y.*
Frederick Kuo, 53, Great Neck, N.Y.*
Patricia Kuras, 42, New York, N.Y.*
Nauka Kushitani, 44, New York, N.Y.
Thomas Joseph Kuveikis, 48, Carmel, N.Y.*
Victor Kwarkye, 35, New York, N.Y.
Kui Fai Kwok, 31, New York, N.Y.
Angela R. Kyte, 49, Boonton, N.J.*
Amarnauth Lachhman, 42, Valley Stream, N.Y.*
Andrew LaCorte, 61, Jersey City, N.J.*
Ganesh Ladkat, 27, Somerset, N.J.*
James P. Ladley, 41, Colts Neck, N.J.*
Daniel M. Van Laere, 46, Glen Rock, N.J.*
Joseph A. Lafalce, 54, New York, N.Y.*
Jeanette LaFond-Menichino, 49, New York, N.Y.*
David LaForge, 50, Port Richmond, N.Y.*
Michael Patrick LaForte, 39, Holmdel, N.J.*
Alan Lafrance, 43*
Juan Lafuente, 61, Poughkeepsie, N.Y.*
Neil K. Lai, 59, East Windsor, N.J.
Vincent A. Laieta, 31, Edison, N.J.*
William David Lake, 44, New York, N.Y.*
Franco Lalama, 45, Nutley, N.J.*
Chow Kwan Lam, 48, Maywood, N.J.*
Stephen LaMantia, 38, Darien, Conn.*
Amy Hope Lamonsoff, 29, New York, N.Y.*
Robert T. Lane, 28, New York, N.Y.*
Brendan M. Lang, 30, Red Bank, N.J.*
Rosanne P. Lang, 42, Middletown, N.J.*
Vanessa Langer, 29, Yonkers, N.Y.*
Mary Lou Langley, 53, New York, N.Y.
Peter J. Langone, 41, Roslyn Heights, N.Y.*
Thomas Langone, 39, Williston Park, N.Y.*
Michele B. Lanza, 36, New York, N.Y.*
Ruth Sheila Lapin, 53, East Windsor, N.J.*
Carol Ann LaPlante, 59, New York, N.Y.*
Ingeborg Astrid Desiree Lariby, 42, New York, N.Y.*
Robin Larkey, 48, Chatham, N.J.*
Christopher Randall Larrabee, 26, New York, N.Y.*
Hamidou S. Larry, 37, New York, N.Y.
Scott Larsen, 35, New York, N.Y.*
John Adam Larson, 37, Colonia, N.J.*
Gary E. Lasko, 49, Memphis, Tenn.*
Nicholas C. Lassman, 28, Cliffside Park, N.J.*
Paul Laszczynski, 49, Paramus, N.J.*
Jeffrey Latouche, 49, New York, N.Y.*
Cristina de Laura
Oscar de Laura
Charles Laurencin, 61, New York, N.Y.*
Stephen James Lauria, 39, New York, N.Y.*
Maria Lavache, 60, New York, N.Y.*
Denis F. Lavelle, 42, Yonkers, N.Y.*
Jeannine M. LaVerde, 36, New York, N.Y.*
Anna A. Laverty, 52, Middletown, N.J.*
Steven Lawn, 28, West Windsor, N.J.*
Robert A. Lawrence, 41, Summit, N.J.*
Nathaniel Lawson, 61, New York, N.Y.*
Eugen Lazar, 27, New York, N.Y.*
James Patrick Leahy, 38, New York, N.Y.*
Lt. Joseph Gerard Leavey, 45, Pelham, N.Y.*
Neil Leavy, 34, New York, N.Y.*
Leon Lebor, 51, Jersey City, N.J.*
Kenneth Charles Ledee, 38, Monmouth, N.J.
Alan J. Lederman, 43, New York, N.Y.*
Elena Ledesma, 36, New York, N.Y.*
Alexis Leduc, 45, New York, N.Y.*
Myung-woo Lee, 41, Lyndhurst, N.J.
David S. Lee, 37, West Orange, N.J.*
Gary H. Lee, 62, Lindenhurst, N.Y.*
Hyun-joon (Paul) Lee, 32, New York, N.Y.
Jong-min Lee, 24, New York, N.Y.
Juanita Lee, 44, New York, N.Y.*
Lorraine Lee, 37, New York, N.Y.*
Richard Y.C. Lee, 34, Great Neck, N.Y.*
Yang Der Lee, 63, New York, N.Y.*
Kathryn Blair Lee, 55, New York, N.Y.*
Stuart (Soo-Jin) Lee, 30, New York, N.Y.*
Linda C. Lee, 34, New York, N.Y.*
Stephen Lefkowitz, 50, Belle Harbor, N.Y.*
Adriana Legro, 32, New York, N.Y.*
Edward J. Lehman, 41, Glen Cove, N.Y.*
Eric Andrew Lehrfeld, 32, New York, N.Y.*
David Ralph Leistman, 43, Garden City, N.Y.*
David Prudencio LeMagne, 27, North Bergen, N.J.*
Joseph A. Lenihan, 41, Greenwich, Conn.*
John J. Lennon, 44, Howell, N.J.*
John Robinson Lenoir, 38, Locust Valley, N.Y.*
Jorge Luis Leon, 43, Union City, N.J.
Matthew Gerard Leonard, 38, New York, N.Y.
Michael Lepore, 39, New York, N.Y.*
Charles Antoine Lesperance, 55*
Jeffrey Earle LeVeen, 55, Manhasset, N.Y.*
John D. Levi, 50, New York, N.Y.*
Alisha Caren Levin, 33, New York, N.Y.*
Neil D. Levin, 47, New York, N.Y.*
Robert Levine, 56, West Babylon, N.Y.
Robert M. Levine, 66, Edgewater, N.J.*
Shai Levinhar, 29, New York, N.Y.*
Adam J. Lewis, 36, Fairfield, Conn.*
Margaret Susan Lewis, 49, Elizabeth, N.J.*
Ye Wei Liang, 27, New York, N.Y.*
Orasri Liangthanasarn, 26, Bayonne, N.J.*
Daniel F. Libretti, 43, New York, N.Y.*
Ralph M. Licciardi, 30, West Hempstead, N.Y.*
Edward Lichtschein, 35, New York, N.Y.*
Steven B. Lillianthal, 38, Millburn, N.J.*
Carlos R. Lillo, 37, Babylon, N.Y.*
Craig Damian Lilore, 30, Lyndhurst, N.J.*
Arnold A. Lim, 28, New York, N.Y.*
Darya Lin, 32, Chicago, Ill.*
Wei Rong Lin, 31, Jersey City, N.J.*
Nickie L. Lindo, 31, New York, N.Y.
Thomas V. Linehan, 39, Montville, N.J.*
Robert Thomas Linnane, 33, West Hempstead, N.Y.*
Alan Linton, 26, Jersey City, N.J.*
Diane Theresa Lipari, 42, New York, N.Y.*
Kenneth P. Lira, 28, Paterson, N.J.*
Francisco Alberto Liriano, 33, New York, N.Y.*
Lorraine Lisi, 44, New York, N.Y.*
Paul Lisson, 45, New York, N.Y.
Vincent Litto, 52, New York, N.Y.*
Ming-Hao Liu, 41, Livingston, N.J.*
Nancy Liz, 39, New York, N.Y.*
Harold Lizcano, 31, East Elmhurst, N.Y.*
Martin Lizzul, 31, New York, N.Y.*
George A. Llanes, 33, New York, N.Y.*
Elizabeth Claire Logler, 31, Rockville Centre, N.Y.*
Catherine Lisa Loguidice, 30, New York, N.Y.*
Jerome Robert Lohez, 30, Jersey City, N.J.*
Michael W. Lomax, 37, New York, N.Y.
Laura M. Longing, 35, Pearl River, N.Y.*
Salvatore P. Lopes, 40, Franklin Square, N.Y.*
Daniel Lopez, 39, New York, N.Y.*
Luis Lopez, 38, New York, N.Y.
Manuel L. Lopez, 54, Jersey City, N.J.*
George Lopez, 40, Stroudsburg, Pa.*
Joseph Lostrangio, 48, Langhorne, Pa.*
Chet Louie, 45, New York, N.Y.*
Stuart Seid Louis, 43, East Brunswick, N.J.*
Joseph Lovero, 60, Jersey City, N.J.*
Michael W. Lowe, 48, New York, N.Y.*
Garry Lozier, 47, Darien, Conn.*
John Peter Lozowsky, 45, New York, N.Y.
Charles Peter Lucania, 34, East Atlantic Beach, N.Y.*
Edward (Ted) H. Luckett, 40, Fair Haven, N.J.*
Mark G. Ludvigsen, 32, New York, N.Y.*
Lee Charles Ludwig, 49, New York, N.Y.
Sean Thomas Lugano, 28, New York, N.Y.*
Daniel Lugo, 45, New York, N.Y.*
Marie Lukas, 32, New York, N.Y.*
William Lum, 45, New York, N.Y.*
Michael P. Lunden, 37, New York, N.Y.*
Christopher Lunder, 34, Wall, N.J.*
Anthony Luparello, 62, New York, N.Y.*
Gary Lutnick, 36, New York, N.Y.*
Linda Luzzicone, 33, New York, N.Y.*
Alexander Lygin, 28, New York, N.Y.*
Farrell Peter Lynch, 39, Centerport, N.Y.*
James Francis Lynch, 47, Woodbridge, N.J.
Louise A. Lynch, 58, Amityville, N.Y.*
Michael Lynch, 34, New York, N.Y.*
Michael F. Lynch, 33, New Hyde Park, N.Y.*
Michael Francis Lynch, 30, New York, N.Y.*
Richard Dennis Lynch, 30, Bedford Hills, N.Y.*
Robert H. Lynch, 44, Cranford, N.J.*
Sean Patrick Lynch, 36, Morristown, N.J.*
Sean Lynch, 34, New York, N.Y.*
Michael J. Lyons, 32, Hawthorne, N.Y.*
Patrick Lyons, 34, South Setauket, N.Y.*
Monica Lyons, 53, New York, N.Y.*
Robert Francis Mace, 43, New York, N.Y.*
Jan Maciejewski, 37, New York, N.Y.*
Catherine Fairfax MacRae, 23, New York, N.Y.*
Richard B. Madden, 35, Westfield, N.J.*
Simon Maddison, 40, Florham Park, N.J.*
Noell Maerz, 29, Long Beach, N.Y.*
Jeannieann Maffeo, 40, New York, N.Y.*
Joseph Maffeo, 30, New York, N.Y.*
Jay Robert Magazine, 48, New York, N.Y.*
Charles Wilson Magee, 51, Wantagh, N.Y.*
Brian Magee, 52, Floral Park, N.Y.
Joseph Maggitti, 47, Abingdon, Md.*
Ronald E. Magnuson, 57, Park Ridge, N.J.*
Daniel L. Maher, 50, Hamilton, N.J.*
Thomas Anthony Mahon, 37, East Norwich, N.Y.*
William Mahoney, 38, Bohemia, N.Y.*
Joseph Maio, 32, Roslyn Harbor, N.Y.*
Takashi Makimoto, 49, New York, N.Y.
Abdu Malahi, 37, New York, N.Y.*
Debora Maldonado, 47, New York, N.Y.*
Myrna T. Maldonado-Agosto, 49, New York, N.Y.*
Alfred R. Maler, 39, Convent Station, N.J.*
Gregory James Malone, 42, Hoboken, N.J.*
Edward Francis (Teddy) Maloney, 32, Darien, Conn.
Joseph E. Maloney, 46, Farmingville, N.Y.*
Gene E. Maloy, 41, New York, N.Y.*
Christian Maltby, 37, Chatham, N.J.*
Francisco Miguel (Frank) Mancini, 26, New York, N.Y.*
Joseph Mangano, 53, Jackson, N.J.*
Sara Elizabeth Manley, 31, New York, N.Y.*
Debra M. Mannetta, 31, Islip, N.Y.*
Terence J. Manning, 36, Rockville Centre, N.Y.*
Marion Victoria (vickie) Manning, 27, Rochdale, N.Y.*
James Maounis, 42, New York, N.Y.*
Joseph Ross Marchbanks, 47, Nanuet, N.Y.*
Peter Edward Mardikian, 29, New York, N.Y.*
Edward Joseph Mardovich, 42, Lloyd Harbor, N.Y.*
Lt. Charles Joseph Margiotta, 44, New York, N.Y.*
Kenneth Joseph Marino, 40, Monroe, N.Y.*
Lester Vincent Marino, 57, Massapequa, N.Y.*
Vita Marino, 49, New York, N.Y.
Kevin D. Marlo, 28, New York, N.Y.*
Jose J. Marrero, 32, Old Bridge, N.J.*
John Marshall, 35, Congers, N.Y.*
James Martello, 41, Rumson, N.J.*
Michael A. Marti, 26, Glendale, N.Y.*
Lt. Peter Martin, 43, Miller Place, N.Y.*
William J. Martin, 35, Rockaway, N.J.*
Brian E. Martineau, 37, Edison, N.J.*
Betsy Martinez, 33, New York, N.Y.*
Edward J. Martinez, 60, New York, N.Y.*
Jose Angel Martinez, 49, Hauppauge, N.Y.*
Robert Gabriel Martinez, 24, New York, N.Y.*
Lizie Martinez-Calderon, 32, New York, N.Y.*
Lt. Paul Richard Martini, 37, New York, N.Y.*
Joseph A. Mascali, 44, New York, N.Y.*
Bernard Mascarenhas, 54, Newmarket, Ontario, Canada*
Stephen F. Masi, 55, New York, N.Y.*
Nicholas G. Massa, 65, New York, N.Y.*
Patricia A. Massari, 25, Glendale, N.Y.*
Michael Massaroli, 38, New York, N.Y.*
Philip W. Mastrandrea, 42, Chatham, N.J.*
Rudolph Mastrocinque, 43, Kings Park, N.Y.*
Joseph Mathai, 49, Arlington, Mass.*
Charles William Mathers, 61, Sea Girt, N.J.*
William A. Mathesen, 40, Morristown, N.J.*
Marcello Matricciano, 31, New York, N.Y.*
Margaret Elaine Mattic, 51, New York, N.Y.*
Robert D. Mattson, 54, Green Pond, N.J.*
Walter Matuza, 39, New York, N.Y.*
Charles A. (Chuck) Mauro, 65, New York, N.Y.*
Charles J. Mauro, 38, New York, N.Y.*
Dorothy Mauro, 55, New York, N.Y.*
Nancy T. Mauro, 51, New York, N.Y.*
Tyrone May, 44, Rahway, N.J.*
Keithroy Maynard, 30, New York, N.Y.*
Robert J. Mayo, 46, Morganville, N.J.*
Kathy Nancy Mazza-Delosh, 46, Farmingdale, N.Y.*
Edward Mazzella, 62, Monroe, N.Y.*
Jennifer Mazzotta, 23, New York, N.Y.*
Kaaria Mbaya, 39, Edison, N.J.*
James J. McAlary, 42, Spring Lake Heights, N.J.*
Brian McAleese, 36, Baldwin, N.Y.*
Patricia A. McAneney, 50, Pomona, N.Y.*
Colin Richard McArthur, 52, Howell, N.J.*
John McAvoy, 47, New York, N.Y.*
Kenneth M. McBrayer, 49, New York, N.Y.*
Brendan McCabe, 40, Sayville, N.Y.*
Michael J. McCabe, 42, Rumson, N.J.*
Thomas McCann, 46, Manalapan, N.J.*
Justin McCarthy, 30, Port Washington, N.Y.*
Kevin M. McCarthy, 42, Fairfield, Conn.*
Michael Desmond McCarthy, 33, Huntington, N.Y.*
Robert Garvin McCarthy, 33, Stony Point, N.Y.*
Stanley McCaskill, 47, New York, N.Y.*
Katie Marie McCloskey, 25, Mount Vernon, N.Y.*
Tara McCloud-Gray, 30, New York, N.Y.*
Charles Austin McCrann, 55, New York, N.Y.*
Tonyell McDay, 25, Colonia, N.J.*
Matthew T. McDermott, 34, Basking Ridge, N.J.*
Joseph P. McDonald, 43, Livingston, N.J.
Brian G. McDonnell, 38, Wantagh, N.Y.*
Michael McDonnell, 34, Red Bank, N.J.*
John F. McDowell, 33, New York, N.Y.*
Eamon J. McEneaney, 46, New Canaan, Conn.*
John Thomas McErlean, 39, Larchmont, N.Y.*
Daniel F. McGinley, 40, Ridgewood, N.J.*
Mark Ryan McGinly, 26, New York, N.Y.*
Lt. William E. McGinn, 43, New York, N.Y.*
Thomas H. McGinnis, 41, Oakland, N.J.*
Michael Gregory McGinty, 42, Foxboro, Mass.*
Ann McGovern, 68, East Meadow, N.Y.*
Scott Martin McGovern, 35, Wyckoff, N.J.*
William J. McGovern, 49, Smithtown, N.Y.*
Stacey S. McGowan, 38, Basking Ridge, N.J.*
Francis Noel McGuinn, 48, Rye, N.Y.*
Patrick J. McGuire, 40, Madison, N.J.
Thomas M. McHale, 33, Huntington, N.Y.*
Keith McHeffey, 31, Monmouth Beach, N.J.*
Denis J. McHugh, 36, New York, N.Y.*
Dennis P. McHugh, 34, Sparkill, N.Y.*
Michael Edward McHugh, 35, Tuckahoe, N.Y.*
Ann M. McHugh, 35, New York, N.Y.*
Robert G. McIlvaine, 26, New York, N.Y.*
Donald James McIntyre, 38, New City, N.Y.*
Stephanie McKenna, 45, New York, N.Y.*
Barry J. McKeon, 47, Yorktown Heights, N.Y.*
Evelyn C. McKinnedy, 60, New York, N.Y.
Darryl Leron McKinney, 26, New York, N.Y.*
Robert C. McLaughlin, 29, Westchester, N.Y.*
George Patrick McLaughlin, 36, Hoboken, N.J.*
Gavin McMahon, 35, Bayonne, N.J.*
Robert Dismas McMahon, 35, New York, N.Y.*
Edmund M. McNally, 41, Fair Haven, N.J.*
Daniel McNeal, 29, Towson, Md.
Walter Arthur McNeil, 53, Stroudsburg, Pa.*
Sean Peter McNulty, 30, New York, N.Y.*
Christine Sheila McNulty, 42, Peterborough, England
Robert William McPadden, 30, Pearl River, N.Y.*
Terence A. McShane, 37, West Islip, N.Y.*
Timothy Patrick McSweeney, 37, New York, N.Y.*
Martin E. McWilliams, 35, Kings Park, N.Y.*
Rocco A. Medaglia, 49, Melville, N.Y.*
Abigail Cales Medina, 46, New York, N.Y.*
Ana Iris Medina, 39, New York, N.Y.*
Deborah Medwig, 46, Dedham, Mass.
William J. Meehan, 49, Darien, Conn.*
Damian Meehan, 32, Glen Rock, N.J.*
Alok Kumar Mehta, 23, Hempstead, N.Y.*
Raymond Meisenheimer, 46, West Babylon, N.Y.*
Manuel Emilio Mejia, 54, New York, N.Y.
Eskedar Melaku, 31, New York, N.Y.*
Antonio Melendez, 30, New York, N.Y.*
Mary Melendez, 44, Stroudsburg, Pa.*
Yelena Melnichenko, 28, Brooklyn, N.Y.*
Stuart Todd Meltzer, 32, Syosset, N.Y.*
Diarelia Jovannah Mena, 30, New York, N.Y.*
Charles Mendez, 38, Floral Park, N.Y.*
Lizette Mendoza, 33, North Bergen, N.J.*
Shevonne Mentis, 25, New York, N.Y.*
Steve Mercado, 38, New York, N.Y.*
Wesley Mercer, 70, New York, N.Y.*
Ralph Joseph Mercurio, 47, Rockville Centre, N.Y.*
Alan H. Merdinger, 47, Allentown, Pa.*
George C. Merino, 39, New York, N.Y.*
Yamel Merino, 24, Yonkers, N.Y.
George Merkouris, 35, Levittown, N.Y.*
Deborah Merrick, 45
Raymond J. Metz, 37, Trumbull, Conn.*
Jill A. Metzler, 32, Franklin Square, N.Y.*
David Robert Meyer, 57, Glen Rock, N.J.*
Nurul Huq Miah, 35, New York, N.Y.*
William Edward Micciulli, 30, Matawan, N.J.*
Martin Paul Michelstein, 57, Morristown, N.J.
Luis Clodoaldo Revilla Mier, 54
Peter T. Milano, 43, Middletown, N.J.*
Gregory Milanowycz, 25, Cranford, N.J.*
Lukasz T. Milewski, 21, New York, N.Y.*
Craig James Miller, 29, Va.
Corey Peter Miller, 34, New York, N.Y.*
Douglas C. Miller, 34, Port Jervis, N.Y.*
Henry Miller, 52, Massapequa, N.Y.*
Michael Matthew Miller, 39, Englewood, N.J.*
Phillip D. Miller, 53, New York, N.Y.*
Robert C. Miller,
-
mm do u want a list of people who died under heavy bombing in Iraq ? Well there cant be any, the bodies are crushed ...
-
no one on this earth deserves to die. If feel as bad for them as I do for anyone, I posted this because its a 911 thread and its 9/11 today. Many people dont realize exactly how many people died that day
-
Originally posted by leji
Wow, no new posts today ! Is the fight over yet ? I guess it\'s over for now but I\'m sure it\'ll be back soon :/
He may have given up on \"le bete american\".
mm do u want a list of people who died under heavy bombing in Iraq ? Well there cant be any, the bodies are crushed ...
If you can get offended, I can too.
And right now, I\'m very offended. You just don\'t post that under the list of 9/11 victims. -_-
(\"Why not?\" you\'ll probably say.)
L\'homme francais est bete aujourd\'hui, aussi...
-
I just feel that it\'s unfair to enumerate only the american victims of 911, many people out of the US have been affected by this attack and it\'s just normal to think about them too. It\'s not to blame it\'s just to remember.
-
Originally posted by Monketh
Originally posted by leji
Wow, no new posts today ! Is the fight over yet ? I guess it\'s over for now but I\'m sure it\'ll be back soon :/
He may have given up on \"le bete american\".
Whatever. I just had other things to do than posting here.
Originally posted by Monketh
L\'homme francais est bete aujourd\'hui, aussi...
Do I sound french to you? Well, I\'m not. I hope that my (rough) translation of this to mean \"the french man is hated here, as well\" is totally wrong, though. If not, I\'m really, really sorry to read that. I do judge ppl. by their opinions and actions, not by their nationaility, religion or other unimportant (and, in fact, randomly assigned) things like that. Read my posts carefully, I never said that I don\'t like (or even hate) americans just for their being american.
Originally posted by Monketh
mm do u want a list of people who died under heavy bombing in Iraq ? Well there cant be any, the bodies are crushed ...
If you can get offended, I can too.
And right now, I\'m very offended. You just don\'t post that under the list of 9/11 victims. -_-
(\"Why not?\" you\'ll probably say.)
Probably because 9/11 was a terrorist attack and Iraq is \"just another war\"? Whatever it is, ppl. died, and the US don\'t exactly make themselves stand out in terms of human rights and stuff, either, but I guess \"that\'s war\"...
However, and I know I might cause anger by saying this, that list doesn\'t serve any purpose for the discussion at hand or for the original topic and therefore IMO borders on SPAM, if only for it\'s length.
I certainly do care for the relatives of these ppl. but they share the same grief as the relatives of a dead iraqui, or as the ones of any dead person, for that matter. The fact that they are americans or iraqui or russians or whatever doesn\'t make them any more serious than others.
Originally posted by Monketh
Originally posted by Seytra
(...)
And do everyone a favor and STOP LYING, AMERICA!
Somebody else step up and actually stop the killings in Sudan, and may be we will stop \"lying\". The UN is neither swift enough or strong enough to police the world.
It\'s not swift because it\'s a democracy. This is, of course, a fundamental problem of democracies, yet I don\'t see what swiftness would have done better on Iraq specifically? The way I see it, being less swift would have been advisable, but then your nice WMD \"justification\" would have been proven to be a lie even before you could invade...
And what does stopping the killings in Sudan have to do with lying? And I don\'t see you stop any killing anywhere, anyway, besides your lying, so obviously lying doesn\'t enable one to do better deeds...
Originally posted by Monketh
Of course, the UN certainly is not perfect, but it is the best we have.
I think the UN needs reform. Now.
On this I actually agree somewhat. But I somehow feel that the reform you have in mind is along the lines of giving the nations influence based exclusively upon their military or economic strength (which of course would make the US rule the UN) and the ability to arbitrarily ignore the others, which is a bad thing.
Originally posted by Monketh
I think one should look at the smaller parties these days. They aren\'t as corrupt, inflexible and clueless as the big ones. There is, however, no need to turn to far right wing or far left wing parties as, AFAICS, most countries have moderate but small parties that could be elected, it\'s just that nobody seems to notice them.
I might point out that all parties here have one extremism or another, none are completely moderate. Some want to do unacceptable things, such as pull US forces out of Iraq.
(You may or may not approve of pulling out, but that would result in complete anarchy.)
They might (and I admit that I don\'t have much information on all parties in the US), but I also bet that that\'s entirely not the way ppl. elect. AFAICS, ppl. elect who has the best advertisement, which almost always is the one with the biggest pockets. That\'s why I strongly favor the 15 minutes daily idea, because that evens out chances. And it does serve to not consume incredible amounts of money, which also is a great thing, because it makes politics less dependant on monetary resources and also means that corruption doesn\'t have to start even before the elections are even held...
As to pulling out of Iraq: I believe that now it\'s not a really good idea, because the terrorists continue their attacks. If the troops would be pulled out now, it\'d look like backing down, which would be a really bad sign. The US have gotten themselves into a position where they have virtually no choice in their actions. (And no, what I think of America doesn\'t mean that I like that, or that I sympathise with the terrorists, no matter what Mr. Bush tries to tell the public).
Originally posted by Monketh
Originally posted by Monketh
Actually, other types of explosives can create the mushroom cloud effect. I would never suggest using Nuclear weapons except during a war with a -country- that has them, and -is- using them.
Sheesh. I was more suggesting use of the \"MOAB\"
I didn\'t think you were actually suggesting use of a nuke, and I accept your statement.
I\'m not stupid enough to suggest that. I\'m glad you\'re not stupid enough to believe I would.
Well, there was this guy who actually said \"nukes save lives\", but I do not treat all americans the same.
Originally posted by Monketh
Originally posted by Monketh
As for the \"Nobody smaller\'n us\" comment, how would you like to be controlled by little kids? That is more of what I meant. I don\'t want to be told what to do by Jacques Chirac.
So you believe that every single other country in the world is like a little child to America simply because they\'re smaller than you?
It was the only analogy I could think of, but I\'m not telling a white lie or taking it back. We\'re big, big means big target, easy to blame for problems. Big means magnified actions. Big means that when we do something wrong, everyone knows, whereas when some other place does, nobody knows.
Exactly. Big means big responsibility. This, however, is what I already said, but it doesn\'t actually fit the context of little kids, because, just as we have seen, being big doesn\'t magically give you any unusual leadership / diplomatic qualities. In fact, they\'re about average IMO, and there is no reason (besides misguided patriotism or national pride) to believe that the leader of a small country, say, the netherlands, wouldn\'t possess these or could not be even better at them.
Originally posted by Monketh
This makes it even worse.
While I, at least after the \"we must test this nuke for the sake of it\" decision of France, certainly wouldn\'t want them to control anything important,
Actually, I see nothing wrong with France testing a nuclear weapon.
You would think differently on Iran, though? Actually, I see a whole lot of things that are wrong with nukes, no matter who makes / has them, especially it it\'s done for the sole reason of having a power trip. As you probably know, every single nuke that goes off adds to the radioactive pollution that is already bad enough. If every country in the world would test one nuke, we might as well have WW3, because endless numbers of ppl. would die of the consequences. The fallout doesn\'t just vanish, it sticks around for millenia and accumulates. Apart from making land uninhabitable for countless generations, that is.
Originally posted by Monketh
Originally posted by Monketh
I care about the environment, and am for regulating SUV\'s and other emissions. We can\'t remain competitive with too many regulations, however.
This effectively means that your economy is inefficient and therefore needs to be subsidised at the expense of the environment and therefore of the rest of the world. How about switching to making things that can be made efficiently, then? Everyone should have the same regulations on emissions, and the fewer emissions there are (as technologically possible), the better. I\'m not advocating a sudden break, but a slow transition.
Certain things cannot be made efficiently. Subsidizing is for milk, not industry.
Subsidising is for a transition phase, not for a status quo. My argument was that you are subsidising your industry not directly with money, but indirectly by ruining the environment for everyone. Or do you think that the global warming, which is happening already and can be observed, comes natural? We\'re already paying the price. More importantly, ppl. wo never ever produced 1 cm^3 of CO2 apart from their own breathing suffer for our careless way of life.
I\'d rather subsidise by money than by ruining the environment.
Originally posted by Monketh
Ah, and I do know that outsourcing would not be much of a problem if americans bought american...
But in no single country in the world did this ever matter. Ppl. buy what is cheapest, if the quality is comparable. But this happens in every country in the world and is going to stay this way until the costs of production (mostly consisting of the quality of life of the workforce) have averaged out.
Originally posted by Monketh
Originally posted by Monketh
...this should be my last post, don\'t reply to it in this thread. If it\'s absolutely necessary, PM me.
I\'m sorry, but you made the statement in a public medium and therefore the discussion of it needs to be public as well.
If I don\'t respond, the thread is killed. I busted the conspiracy, which is what I came here to do. There is no reason I should stay, other than to explain my positions more clearly, or offend you.
If I choose not to discuss the matter publicly, what can you do? If I choose not to discuss it? (Because surely my opinions will change very little.)
[/QUOTE]
I could do nothing, of course. Of course, it\'s entirely your choice whether or not to discuss it any further.
However, the way I see it, it doesn\'t actually matter if your or my opinions change.
As for the conspiracy: I expect any evil deed of any government. I however don\'t see what good this particular conspiracy would have done the american government (maybe it might be found later on).
Still, the ways evidence has been treated is most unprofessional, which is something that seems to accompany every government action of any significance. This is so consistent that it by itself is reason to be very suspicious. After all, if a house burns down, the police does a way better job at securing evidence than the government usually does, which is strange. Maybe these things are done in order to make it look normal so that nobody notices if there actually is something to hide. Its more crazy and unreasonable conspiracy theries this way, which helps discredit the conspiracy theorists.
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You have got to keep in mind he reasons I posted it before you call it spam.
1 innocent people died on 9/11 2001 and it was the 3 year aniversery.
2 this thread was on 9/11 and I wanted to remind people that this wasnt some game they where talking about when they called the pentagon thing a bomb. I wanted them to remember that this really happend and that real people died
3 It was my was of showing my respect to the dead
4 a reality check for those who say \"the us sucks and osama should do it again\" (and , yes, people do think that)
deleting a list of people who died would be very disrespectful and im guessing thats why moggie or anyone else didnt delet it
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Originally posted by Seytra
Do I sound french to you? Well, I\'m not. I hope that my (rough) translation of this to mean \"the french man is hated here, as well\" is totally wrong, though. If not, I\'m really, really sorry to read that. I do judge ppl. by their opinions and actions, not by their nationaility, religion or other unimportant (and, in fact, randomly assigned) things like that. Read my posts carefully, I never said that I don\'t like (or even hate) americans just for their being american.
Actually the statement was directed at Leji, and \"bete\" afaik, is \"dum\". So I was saying The Frenchman (leji) is dum today, like me (perhaps I should switch out \"aussi\" for \"tel moi\"?). Not hated or despised because he\'s french.
Probably because 9/11 was a terrorist attack and Iraq is \"just another war\"? Whatever it is, ppl. died, and the US don\'t exactly make themselves stand out in terms of human rights and stuff, either, but I guess \"that\'s war\"...
Because they didn\'t have a chance and Iraqis fighting in favor of Saddam, did.
However, and I know I might cause anger by saying this, that list doesn\'t serve any purpose for the discussion at hand or for the original topic and therefore IMO borders on SPAM, if only for it\'s length.
It does border on spam, border.
edit: Actually, one might perhaps accuse him of using the list to increase postcount.... hm...
I certainly do care for the relatives of these ppl. but they share the same grief as the relatives of a dead iraqui, or as the ones of any dead person, for that matter. The fact that they are americans or iraqui or russians or whatever doesn\'t make them any more serious than others.
I\'m sure they appreciate it, as I appreciate that you do.
It\'s not swift because it\'s a democracy. This is, of course, a fundamental problem of democracies, yet I don\'t see what swiftness would have done better on Iraq specifically? The way I see it, being less swift would have been advisable, but then your nice WMD \"justification\" would have been proven to be a lie even before you could invade...
And what does stopping the killings in Sudan have to do with lying? And I don\'t see you stop any killing anywhere, anyway, besides your lying, so obviously lying doesn\'t enable one to do better deeds...
It proves that the U.N. isn\'t swift enough. It could create sanctions to force more diplomatic pressure (not military) against the gov\'t of Sudan (which failed to meet it\'s deadlines, if I recall correctly).
On this I actually agree somewhat. But I somehow feel that the reform you have in mind is along the lines of giving the nations influence based exclusively upon their military or economic strength (which of course would make the US rule the UN) and the ability to arbitrarily ignore the others, which is a bad thing.
No...
You are now over-estimating how right-wing I am.
They might (and I admit that I don\'t have much information on all parties in the US), but I also bet that that\'s entirely not the way ppl. elect. AFAICS, ppl. elect who has the best advertisement, which almost always is the one with the biggest pockets. That\'s why I strongly favor the 15 minutes daily idea, because that evens out chances. And it does serve to not consume incredible amounts of money, which also is a great thing, because it makes politics less dependant on monetary resources and also means that corruption doesn\'t have to start even before the elections are even held...
As I said earlier, I support the 15 minutes idea.
As to pulling out of Iraq: I believe that now it\'s not a really good idea, because the terrorists continue their attacks. If the troops would be pulled out now, it\'d look like backing down, which would be a really bad sign. The US have gotten themselves into a position where they have virtually no choice in their actions. (And no, what I think of America doesn\'t mean that I like that, or that I sympathise with the terrorists, no matter what Mr. Bush tries to tell the public).
Then you aren\'t unreasonable.
Well, there was this guy who actually said \"nukes save lives\", but I do not treat all americans the same.
If he, by chance, was in favor of using nuclear weapons against Japan in \'45 instead of mounting an invasion, I agree with him. Otherwise, I probably don\'t. An invasion would have created far more casualties on both sides.
Exactly. Big means big responsibility. This, however, is what I already said, but it doesn\'t actually fit the context of little kids, because, just as we have seen, being big doesn\'t magically give you any unusual leadership / diplomatic qualities. In fact, they\'re about average IMO, and there is no reason (besides misguided patriotism or national pride) to believe that the leader of a small country, say, the netherlands, wouldn\'t possess these or could not be even better at them.
I never said it did. The intent of the analogy was a bunch of small people ganging up on the big guy, because he\'s the big guy.
You would think differently on Iran, though?
Obviously, how likely is the French government actually using that weapon?
The chances are slim, at most.
Actually, I see a whole lot of things that are wrong with nukes, no matter who makes / has them, especially it it\'s done for the sole reason of having a power trip. As you probably know, every single nuke that goes off adds to the radioactive pollution that is already bad enough. If every country in the world would test one nuke, we might as well have WW3, because endless numbers of ppl. would die of the consequences. The fallout doesn\'t just vanish, it sticks around for millenia and accumulates. Apart from making land uninhabitable for countless generations, that is.
I suppose I must concede this environmental point to you.
Subsidising is for a transition phase, not for a status quo. My argument was that you are subsidising your industry not directly with money, but indirectly by ruining the environment for everyone. Or do you think that the global warming, which is happening already and can be observed, comes natural? We\'re already paying the price. More importantly, ppl. wo never ever produced 1 cm^3 of CO2 apart from their own breathing suffer for our careless way of life.
I\'d rather subsidise by money than by ruining the environment.
Subsidizing our industry indirectly with lax environmental regs? Nice spinning on your words there. Dang that\'s good. Anywho, there are plenty of countries where this happens.
Also, subsidizing is frequently used to flood markets, creating dependcies. It creates markets where companies can not effectively compete, which ruins a major point of having capitalism in the first place.
But in no single country in the world did this ever matter. Ppl. buy what is cheapest, if the quality is comparable. But this happens in every country in the world and is going to stay this way until the costs of production (mostly consisting of the quality of life of the workforce) have averaged out.
That does not elimnate that fact that it\'s a true statement.
I could do nothing, of course. Of course, it\'s entirely your choice whether or not to discuss it any further.
However, the way I see it, it doesn\'t actually matter if your or my opinions change.
Because you\'re here to validate your own opinions to yourself and friends. And/or (although you won\'t admit it) at least on a subconscious level you desire to win.
You aren\'t the only one here for those reasons, either.
As for the conspiracy: I expect any evil deed of any government. I however don\'t see what good this particular conspiracy would have done the american government (maybe it might be found later on).
\"Evil\" you either believe, or are using persuasively. Most decisions like that are simply lacking moral judgement, not deliberately malicious, as \"evil\" implies.
Still, the ways evidence has been treated is most unprofessional, which is something that seems to accompany every government action of any significance. This is so consistent that it by itself is reason to be very suspicious. After all, if a house burns down, the police does a way better job at securing evidence than the government usually does, which is strange. Maybe these things are done in order to make it look normal so that nobody notices if there actually is something to hide. Its more crazy and unreasonable conspiracy theries this way, which helps discredit the conspiracy theorists.
[sarcasm]
It\'s a giant left-wing conspiracy between all the governments of the world, the aliens are here, and they have elvis! Michael Jackson is proof! Prepare yourselves!
[/sarcasm]
I can see your point.
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Originally posted by Monketh
Probably because 9/11 was a terrorist attack and Iraq is \"just another war\"? Whatever it is, ppl. died, and the US don\'t exactly make themselves stand out in terms of human rights and stuff, either, but I guess \"that\'s war\"...
Because they didn\'t have a chance and Iraqis fighting in favor of Saddam, did.
This of course brings up the question whether or not all of the Iraquis who died were actually fighting for or even sympathising with Saddam. Of course this cannot be answered, because terrorists are known for using civilians for any purpose that serves them, including as human shields, victims, deterrent for an attack, or to make their proclaimed enemy look bad \"look, they killed civilians again!\" (whether or not they actually were civilians and not terrorists).
Originally posted by Monketh
And what does stopping the killings in Sudan have to do with lying? And I don\'t see you stop any killing anywhere, anyway, besides your lying, so obviously lying doesn\'t enable one to do better deeds...
It proves that the U.N. isn\'t swift enough. It could create sanctions to force more diplomatic pressure (not military) against the gov\'t of Sudan (which failed to meet it\'s deadlines, if I recall correctly).
Still, if you can\'t find enough reasons to wage war, then resorting to lies is totally wrong IMO. The UN is right in hesitating to go to war, because war is a last ditch measure due to it\'s enormous consequences for both sides. Of course, sanctions tend to be hurting the ppl. of the country being sanctioned as well. The question that drives the dscision of war or sanctions is \"what causes less harm to less ppl?\" (at least it should be this IMO). Yes, deadlines will be ignored, often repeatedly, but is this actually a reason to resort to war at all costs? I think it\'s not.
Originally posted by Monketh
As I said earlier, I support the 15 minutes idea.
I know. It was meant more as support for the idea, based on the problems of advertisement-driven campaigns rather than as countering an argument that didn\'t actually exist. I\'m sorry to have worded it badly.
Originally posted by Monketh
Well, there was this guy who actually said \"nukes save lives\", but I do not treat all americans the same.
If he, by chance, was in favor of using nuclear weapons against Japan in \'45 instead of mounting an invasion, I agree with him. Otherwise, I probably don\'t. An invasion would have created far more casualties on both sides.
AFAIR, he wasn\'t, it was more like in the context of the current situation. I don\'t know how many losses there would have been if an invasion had taken place in Japan, but I assume that the costs of civil lives would have been smaller. While technically a life is a life, the choice of becoming a soldier shifts the balance somewhat (as long as there actually is such a choice).
Originally posted by Monketh
I never said it did. The intent of the analogy was a bunch of small people ganging up on the big guy, because he\'s the big guy.
So obviously I completely missed the intent, thanks for clarifying.
I am not sure if this is what\'s happening. Maybe it\'s there to some degree (but still not \"just because\", maybe there\'s a feeling of having been treated somewhat wrongly, but this might be subjective), but I don\'t think it\'s the actual driving factor.
Originally posted by Monketh
You would think differently on Iran, though?
Obviously, how likely is the French government actually using that weapon?
The chances are slim, at most.
Then what is the point of building them? The only reason I can see is that it wasn\'t actually a test for the nuke, but rather a test of how much strain they could put on the diplomatic relations to the rest of the world. While this might be a reasonable thing to want to know, the use of a nuke is a very, very bad way of testing it, especially for all the consequences of nukes. Like typing with a sledgehammer.
Originally posted by Monketh
Subsidizing our industry indirectly with lax environmental regs? Nice spinning on your words there. Dang that\'s good.
I\'m not sure if I get what you\'re saying here. Are you criticising me for twisting my words to mean something they weren\'t meant to mean so that I wouldn\'t need to admit having been wrong? In this case I totally disagree, because the interpretation was the intended meaning of the statement all along, it didn\'t change.
I don\'t do this sort of thing, at least not intentionally.
Originally posted by Monketh
Anywho, there are plenty of countries where this happens.
Yes. While I can see the need for this if there is basically no economy to begin with, I think it\'s a very bad thing in general and something that is not appropriate for any developed nation, because they should know better and they have the choice.
Originally posted by Monketh
Also, subsidizing is frequently used to flood markets, creating dependcies. It creates markets where companies can not effectively compete, which ruins a major point of having capitalism in the first place.
Yes. It defeats the only objectively beneficial point of capitalism. (the subjectively beneficial point is catering to the nature of humans as they currently are.)
Originally posted by Monketh
But in no single country in the world did this ever matter. Ppl. buy what is cheapest, if the quality is comparable. But this happens in every country in the world and is going to stay this way until the costs of production (mostly consisting of the quality of life of the workforce) have averaged out.
That does not elimnate that fact that it\'s a true statement.
Indeed it doesn\'t. If ppl. would deliberately buy stuff only off local companies (even with differences in price and quality), the ppl. themselves would subsidise their industry directly. This, however, would be against the idea of capitalism and therefore it\'s not going to happen.
In fact, if it would happen consistently, there would be communism rather than capitalism all over the world (ppl. would want to help the community), which would, in return, remove all need for subsidising.
That or population-sustained extreme-nationalism (ppl. want to have nothing foreign in their country).
IMO, there are only two problems with outsourcing:
1) payment: as long as there are differences in standards of life, the nations with better standards are going to suffer, while the benefit for the workforce of the outsourced-to country can be argued.
2) distance: the increased distance that goods need to be carried over adds to waste of energy and therefore to pollution.
Originally posted by Monketh
I could do nothing, of course. Of course, it\'s entirely your choice whether or not to discuss it any further.
However, the way I see it, it doesn\'t actually matter if your or my opinions change.
Because you\'re here to validate your own opinions to yourself and friends. And/or (although you won\'t admit it) at least on a subconscious level you desire to win.
You aren\'t the only one here for those reasons, either.
Validating opinions: yes, to see if they actually hold up against reality, and if there maybe are points that should be added.
Of course there is some satisfaction in winning, but the desire to win only drives the effort of trying to find good arguments (otherwise it\'d just be flaming). I\'d rather not win with a flawed argument, because I might act wrongly believing in it\'s validity. Also I\'d be disappointed once I find out it\'s flawed, even more if I then realise that the other side\'s argument was valid (in which case I\'d most likely try to correct the situation by getting back to them, at least if it\'s of any importance to know the right thing). I don\'t get satisfaction out of winning for the sake of it, that\'s what games are for.
Gosh, I sound superstitious even to me.
Originally posted by Monketh
As for the conspiracy: I expect any evil deed of any government. I however don\'t see what good this particular conspiracy would have done the american government (maybe it might be found later on).
\"Evil\" you either believe, or are using persuasively. Most decisions like that are simply lacking moral judgement, not deliberately malicious, as \"evil\" implies.
Yes, my definition of \"evil\" includes \"acting deliberately malicious\" as well as \"knowingly acting morally questionable\" and \"knowingly not performing morality checks\", so it\'s more broad than the original meaning. While technically there is a difference (deliberately malicious things are done without personal gain, whereas knowingly morally questionable things are done for personal gain), the fact that \"acting deliberately malicious\" actually does yield the gain of satisfaction (of having been malicious) effectively changes \"acting deliberately malicious\" to \"acting morally questionable\" and therefore they IMO equate. \"Knowingly not performing morality checks\" is in fact \"knowingly acting morally questionable\", because the only reason to avoid moral judgement is that there is reason to believe it would turn out to be morally wrong.
@ FESFES: So you posted it because you wanted to see if you could get away with it because the mods would not dare to delete it out of respect (as you indirectly admit of having known all along by saying
Originally posted by FESFES
deleting a list of people who died would be very disrespectful and im guessing thats why moggie or anyone else didnt delet it
), thereby proving that you yourself don\'t respect but rather abuse the dead ppl. and the event itself.
Otherwise you\'d have not posted it but rather a line like \"But let\'s not forget that many lives were lost on this sad day.\", which would IMO have been more adequate and less spammy.
I second counter-acting the tendency of nonvoluntary deaths becoming obscured by anonymous numbers over time, but there are other ways to do so.
Originally posted by FESFES
4 a reality check for those who say \"the us sucks and osama should do it again\" (and , yes, people do think that)
Yes. Ppl. do think this and they should indeed check whether they have thought of all consequences.
An opinion like this could be justifiable if it were an empty, government-owned building, but not if there was a single person suffering.
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Originally posted by FESFES
You have got to keep in mind he reasons I posted it before you call it spam.
1 innocent people died on 9/11 2001 and it was the 3 year aniversery.
2 this thread was on 9/11 and I wanted to remind people that this wasnt some game they where talking about when they called the pentagon thing a bomb. I wanted them to remember that this really happend and that real people died
3 It was my was of showing my respect to the dead
4 a reality check for those who say \"the us sucks and osama should do it again\" (and , yes, people do think that)
deleting a list of people who died would be very disrespectful and im guessing thats why moggie or anyone else didnt delet it
I can not be completely sure if you seriously did think you were contributing something or being respectful,
...or just adding *+1* to post count.
In either case, you are correct that deleting it straight-out would be considered at least mildly disrespectful, but mods are sneaky (in a good way), and could either compensate for it with another of your posts, or edit it in to an earlier post...
As for people saying it should be done again, they\'re either so leftist they\'re stupid (as being a member of the KKK would be an opposite example, so right-wing they\'re stupid), or are arabs-miltants/islamic extremists themselves.
@Seytra: I\'ll get back to you and the rest of the community on, eh... Friday, I think.
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I found this in another forum and just couldn\'t resist posting it here :). And no i dont want to link the iraq war to the nazis. Just thought it might be interesting.
\"Of course the people don\'t want war. But after all, it\'s the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it\'s always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it\'s a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger.\"
-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials
Hermann Goering, Hitler\'s #2 man
The source: http://www.snopes.com/quotes/goering.htm
About the use of nuclears on Japan the following site gives a constructive version that claims that a better cultural understanding between the west and Japan might have led to a better solution:
http://www.doug-long.com/hiroshim.htm
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reagan national controllers then vectored an unarmed national guard c-130h cargo aircaft, which had just taken off enroute to minnesota, to identify and follow the suspicious aircraft. the c-130h pilot spotted it, identifed it as a boeing 757, attempted to follow its path, and at 9:38, seconds after impact, reported to the control tower: \"looks like that aircraft crashed into the pentagon sir.\"
pg 25, the 9/11 commission report
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Where are you getting this info, steuben? I looked on page 25 (out of 585) of the complete 9/11 commission report at http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/index.htm (http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/index.htm) but couldn\'t find what you were referring to.
Don\'t get me wrong, the report clearly states that a plane hit the pentagon, but I want to make sure to find your qoute.
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hmm. mines only 567 count chapter notes at the end.
the paper backedition isbn 0-393-32671-3
section 1.2 about halfway through that section. aa flight 77; faa awareness
the location should be fairly close on the on line version
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Dont vote for bush please, but dont vote for Kerry either !
Find something else ! Make things change because it looks like your little GI joes prevented the two french hostages to be freed yesterday !
Bah, it\'s useless, just try to think about what should be the real place of USA in the world but without thinking that you\'re clever than the rest of the world ...
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Originally posted by leji
Dont vote for bush please, but dont vote for Kerry either !
Don\'t tell people who not to vote for.
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Originally posted by leji
Dont vote for bush please, but dont vote for Kerry either !
Find something else ! Make things change because it looks like your little GI joes prevented the two french hostages to be freed yesterday !
Bah, it\'s useless, just try to think about what should be the real place of USA in the world but without thinking that you\'re clever than the rest of the world ...
You realise the third option is Ralph Nader, do you not?
You also realize that the most he\'ll get is 5%, right?
I think he advocates leaving Iraq the moment he\'s in office. N.G.
I have waffled over to the Kerry camp after watching the presidential \"debate\". In either case, both want to do some really stupid things. What I worry about most with Kerry is that he\'ll go overboard with federal spending on charity-style social programs. What I worry about with Bush is/was the pursuit of bunker-busting mini-nukes. Both of them want to do what they think is right for america, however they are both mistaken on things.
American politicians will not attempt to change the system any time soon. (I wish they would, of course. Perhaps I should become a politician myself to try to make that happen.)
(...Eh, NG == Not Good. I play waaaay too much DDR.)
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Originally posted by Kiern
Don\'t tell people who not to vote for.
It was not my purpose, I\'m just trying to explain that from my point of view they are both the same, I have seen what Bush is able to do, so I guess Kerry would be just as good as him... I would be quite depressed if we would have to wait another 4 years for an american president who would want to care of his own people instead of other countries ...
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It is a bit offtopic, but how does the political system of the usa work? I thought there were only two parties at first, yet you also have Ralph Nader with his party. Are the democrats and republicans so powerfull that other parties don\'t stand a chance?
Just curious :)
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OK, basically this:
The two main parties are the Democrats (Liberal/left-wing), and the Republicans (Conservative/Right-wing).
There are other isolated, smaller parties that the average person does not know about. This is because they care about only one issue. If they presented a more viable alternative, they might be heard about more often. *shrugs*
Each state has a set number of electoral votes based its\' population. If the state is won, all its\' votes go to the winning candidate.
Ralphie has several of the smaller parties supporting him.
Edit: Keep in mind that a moderate party can not exist because there is nothing for them to detest with all their souls. They only detest half-way, and since they see both sides of the argument, they often get bested. Most parties are united because they are completely opposed to another party or other parties. Someone should still try, though. :P