PlaneShift
Fan Area => The Hydlaa Plaza => Topic started by: Noldor on September 23, 2004, 10:53:40 pm
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Greetins All!
I have heard a lot of complaints from females (I didn\'t want to get into the \"don\'t call me a lady/woman/girl/grrl\" debate) who feel that games are still exclusively aimed at the male gender. So here are some articles and sites for everyone to ponder:
Gamer Grrl
http://www.grrlgamer.com/
Lady Gamers
http://www.ladygamers.com
Women Gamers
http://www.womengamers.com/
:) Women Gamers - Planeshift
:) http://www.ladygamers.com/focus/february/gparagonx.html
CNN - Women gamers making small inroads
http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/fun.games/09/09/women.gamers.ap/
Women gamers make their mark at QuakeCon 2004
http://money.cnn.com/2004/08/14/commentary/game_over/column_gaming/
Women get in the game
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2004/Jan04/01-08WomenGamers.asp
Chasing Women Gamers
http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3019985a1899,00.html
It is true that males are the major market for games. Look at all the big-breasted avatars and in-game character models. Look at one of the biggest PS2 & PC game...GTA: Vice City (Character is a male who has sex hookers to regain health...and then kills them to save money).
And look how women are treated in games....lavished with gifts but also stalked and constantly hit on by males for cyber sex or Real Life meetings. I know males who create female characters ONLY because they will get free items and can manipulate other in-game males into fights and chaos. I personally know 5 Real Life women who only play as males...so they don\'t get constantly stalked by young males (2 have restraining orders on men who found out where they actually live!).
Companies are trying to market games to women. I beta tested and still currently play in something called There.com. They tried to market to women...but since the online gaming market is still slanted towards the male population, There.com has reduced the support for their online community enviroment and has gone after the military simulation sales.
Well, those are my general opinions...what are yours?
Toodles,
Dolnor Numbwit
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Very intresting site very intresting. Considering most gamers probably dont think girls play games .Heck I only know one person who is a girl and plays games, but I have known her since we where young. But come to think about it my Optician also playes the Age of series.
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Originally posted by Noldor
I have heard a lot of complaints from females
pfft... don\'t mind them, they probably had their \"time of the month\" or something...
seriously tho\', I think if they want to be taken serious, they should stop making those websites, which obviously are making the male-female borders.
Also complaining about game producers aiming their products at wider set of users is pretty stupid too...
It\'s like bunch of creeps complaining that they don\'t make stinky shampoos... (of course imo)
Personally I think ladies should stop playing games and start shooting bows... but then again I\'m not normal...
- Swords!
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Well Draklar, we didn\'t achieve equal rights by staying at home chained to the laundry basket without a word of complaint, now did we. :)
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Yes, most games are marketed towards male gamers. That doesn\'t mean females can\'t enjoy them. Look at planeshift and it\'s trademark loading screens (a tradition broken with Crystal Blue :()
And I\'m sorry that so many gamers are assholes, but that\'s why they play games; they\'re jerks with no friends. Personally, I don\'t pay attention to the gender of a player, especially because I know that you can\'t exactly trust what they say.
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Yes, of course, you gained \"equal\" rights in case of whole society, which would be around 50/50 for male-female. But is that good example for communities where... what is the percentage of ladies in PS?
What I\'m trying to say is that females should stop complaining about stuff like that. Being lesser group in gaming, nothing will change and they aren\'t likely to be taken seriously.
For example, I\'m complaing that people use guns on wars instead of swords, but does anyone take me seriously? No, I don\'t think so...
- Swords!
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Originally posted by Mogura
Well Draklar, we didn\'t achieve equal rights by staying at home chained to the laundry basket without a word of complaint, now did we. :)
indeed and now women are set to turn that to the way that men will be changed....equal rights HA its just a chage of domanace truely equal rights is inpossible
take for example that a dog has more legal rights then a single white male :)
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what\'s wrong with these sites? these girls make friends
and there\'s always male lurkers at their sites that these girls like to have around. who cares really? :)
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If women want to be more recognized in games, they must bring more women into the gaming market.
Yet, to bring more women into the market, games must be adjusted to them as a group.
Paradoxical, isn\'t it? :rolleyes:
Unfortunate, I must say, but that is the current reality.
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*nods sagely*
[ot]
haven\'t we\'ve done this before ?
[/ot]
what is the percentage of ladies in PS?
well form past surveys done ( dont ask i remember reading some) MMo\'s have the a bigger n.o of women gamers to men gamers ratio.
its about 1:4 average ??? i can\'t remember ...
- my 2 cents worth -
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heh ok lol everytime I get into this conversation about women and equal rights I only got one thing against the movement.
Not all women want equal rights, they want it for things that will benefit them but when it comes to something that won\'t well, Let the men do it or I am just a female. Its not us putting up those lines all the times dividing the sexs, its you women..and it really bugs me because I\'ve seen it in my own family, at school and at work. Its definately occuring but whenever you bring it up, ofcourse you hear oh that just a small percentage or yeah right..the truth is what you get but what you cannot handle!
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Originally posted by Noldor
And look how women are treated in games....lavished with gifts but also stalked and constantly hit on by males for cyber sex or Real Life meetings. I know males who create female characters ONLY because they will get free items and can manipulate other in-game males into fights and chaos. I personally know 5 Real Life women who only play as males...so they don\'t get constantly stalked by young males (2 have restraining orders on men who found out where they actually live!).
Well, quite a few women like the attention and getting gifts, free drinks at clubs/bars, etc. They can\'t really stop it in games, but they could stop this in RL, by not wearing thongs at the beach, really short shorts/skirts in public, etc. But, they won\'t because they like the attention that they get etc. And what people do IRL, reflects what they do in games, to a certain extent.
Anyways, PS can be aimed at both men and women, as can other games. It just depends on what the likes and dislikes are of each individual. Most people think war games are just for men, but I know a few men that don\'t like the point of war games, but I know some women that do like them. So, most of this \"men/women\" thing is just personal thoughts. Although, I do agree that GTA: Vice City was aimed at men.
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what I\'m wondering is how many female Game developers are out there compared to males?
How many females do you see making allot of 3D stuff?
if you look @ bonus features of the CG movies like Finding Nemo, it is mostly all these Guys talking about how they modeled & animated the Chars, I can\'t really recall if I did see a female doing 3D Art... Maybe it is more of a thing about how many women get involved in making games, Guys just do not really have the feminine powers to attract women to games very well...
Do we even have a female developer on the PS team?
I think Magura should be one of the 2D art people because she is good @ that stuff.. & Karyuu is pretty good too... but I really have not been around long enough to have met all the talented people around Ylliacum...
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Games have always been made for males and because no females played these games no one payed attention to them and thought that only males played games because of this.
It is quite funny how most females dont play that many games but everytime I have found one online they have been azz kickers and always up the top, and then when they do admit that they are female everyone tries to talk to them :rolleyes:
Most females dont like to puplicise there gender online though because of the hassles they get from other immature players.
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Indeed, the lack of women draws losers to the internet in vast quantities. They consume and harrass all they can find. If we had a server for roleplayers only, it might turn out better, but that isn\'t always the case. So, for fear of losers, we lose those who contribute some of the most quality (ex. of top female contributers: Moogs, Kada, Grono, Agara...). You can not control any person\'s first impression, and if it\'s a bad one, it creates a stereotype.
We must do all we can to eliminate the \"perverted desperate gamer\" stereotype. We must also encourage those game developers we can not to \"sell sex\".
-Monketh
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I seriously don\'t think some idiot harrassing them (or anyone for that matter) will provoke anything more than a /ignore \"insert random idiots name here\"..
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Bleh, when it comes to this stuff I realize just how annoying humanity is. Men and women ( or women and men if I must) are not the same!!! ...deal with it.
And people need to really calm down with the sexist stuff. I mean sure there are sexists out there but that doesn\'t mean that \"Guys night out\" should be an illegal tradition
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rock on mate :D
seriously though aye, no one draws the line between men and woman here, only when people post about it.
ever heard of the saying \"ladies first\" ? ya dont hear me haven a winge over that now do youse.
I think in games woman get a lot more respect anyways
lol i dont know why i even posted here, i guess im bored ?
well thats my go for the night
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\"It is true that males are the major market for games.\"
I think I have to tell you you\'re wrong. Did you know 51% of the persons that buys console games are females? Did you know that over 45% of the gamers are females?
Well, you think superior because you\'re a male and you play a game? Equals rights to everyone ... There are enough girls playing, but some of the people just don\'t want to see them.
Ah not to forget, there are plenty of girls in the games developing industry as well ... :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Annah
Did you know that over 45% of the gamers are females?
actually that would be around 40%
or 39% to be specific
And I think this includes women who play simple time-passers...
btw, what would be game aimed at female gamers anyway? Wouldn\'t that be sims or something? If so then what\'s the problem?
- Swords
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Sims? Why Sims Drak? Do you think Doom 3 for example is only for males? Every game is played by who likes it, no matter his genre.
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It\'s the females who think that actually... check the openning post.
I, myself don\'t care. (Altho\' I\'m talking about aiming games at females. In that case no, I don\'t think Doom 3 was aimed at female gamers...)
But why sims? Well I don\'t really hear much about little girls playing war, or boys playing house.
- Swords
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The sims was one of those games that transcends the specified stereotypical groups of gamers(like DDR). Just about everyone likes it. Though, in particular, it does attract a lot more women than, say, empire earth.
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You can build or destroy (in gaming or life :) ). Women tend to build. Make a game with both the \"building\" and the \"destruction\" parts equally developed and it would attract as many females as males.
(note #1: men can develop in women the bitter aknowledgement that destruction is a neccesity)
(note #2: draklar, why do you think \"swords not guns\"? just curious...)
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Originally posted by Draklar
In that case no, I don\'t think Doom 3 was aimed at female gamers
Um...Why? Because it is action packed, gory, and brutal?
Sure, many male players are attracted by those features because - traditionally - \"it\'s what a guy does\". But, does violence inherently deter women from playing a game? I think not, I know plenty of girls that could effortlessly beat an action FPS, leaving the \"core gamers\" gaping in awe.
Granted, many products present scantily clad women with elevated sex appeal so that the male gamers are naturally drawn closer to the box and drool over the printed beauties. But do remember that the male protagonists of every game also tend to be broad shouldered, muscular and statuesque for the delight of females.
Undoubtedly, the gaming industry has already realised of who plays what. Marketing studies have been tackled to show how the percentages of males and females are growing closer. And this is not new, it has been going on for a while now.
So thinking that \"games are made for guys\" as a general rule strikes me as ridiculous. Why would a company deliberately ostracise the female players, when they also mean a very important profit? Common sense would say that they will try to attract as many fans as possible. And I believe most are walking down that road nowadays (Note the *most*. There are still games in which the packaging and presentation clearly denotes a preference for male audience.)
RolePlaying wise, if I have to remember the most memorable and interesting characters I have had the pleasure to encounter, I would say that more than half of them are admirably played by women. And if you search a little, you will find that in certain RolePlaying communities, women are a majority.
So, my opinion on this? The masculine gender may have been predominant until now, but that era is reaching an end as the inaccurately-dubbed \"weak sex\" has clearly and righfully been claiming its spot in the gaming industry (Suffice to say, there have been some games programmed -SOLELY- by a female development team).
In general terms, the battleground is even for both sides. None has \"natural\" skills and abilities more evolved than the other. And particularly in an RPG, there is absolutely no difference in the gender of the player.
And, truth be told, I never paid attention to the gender of my fellow players anyway. What is more important in a game is that everyone is having fun, that entertainment is provided, and that friends can be made.
- Golbez
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yup Golbez is right, it\'s a fact that more and more women are playing video games which I find out is pretty cool. I mean when I get married or if I get married, I hope she would like video games as much as I do.
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Originally posted by Golbez
Originally posted by Draklar
In that case no, I don\'t think Doom 3 was aimed at female gamers
Um...Why? Because it is action packed, gory, and brutal?
Sure, many male players are attracted by those features because - traditionally - \"it\'s what a guy does\". But, does violence inherently deter women from playing a game? I think not, I know plenty of girls that could effortlessly beat an action FPS, leaving the \"core gamers\" gaping in awe.
You just answered your own question... If that\'s the traditional thing then it would be more than obvious that game producers aimed it at the male players...
Tulfutzian: because guns are gangsta, lame and not medieval...
- Swords
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What guns for sissys ? Guns are the shizzle phat lw3t ! :D (unless you get shot) . Ever wonder why we humans have stop useing swords and stuck to guns ?
[smokey cloud dream effect]
\"all righty lads ! CHARGE ! \"
*screaming ARRRRRRrrrrrrrrrr Charge Arrrrrr *
*BANG Bang BANG bang*
[/smokey cloud dream effect]
I belive to many jap anime shows have done you in draklark. Remember light sabers are not allowed in this arguement Light sabers are a mix, a Hybrid of both a sword and a gun in that sense, so it sits on the fence with the other gun/swords weapons.
on point
Would any of you make a game aimed at women ?
I dont think any of the game companys would, as theres no huge* market of women gamers, so any games aimed at the women folk wont generate enough sales. But at the same time because there are no games directed at women, theres no women gamers to sell to or introduce to the wonderful world of gameing where we (men) spend many sleepless nights trying death after death to finnish a mission with out cheat codes.
[edit change\" no women gamers\" to \"LACK OF women gamers \"]
-my other 2 cents-
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Draklar, you highlighted just one sentence, but the point is made in the sentence after that one.
I meant that yes, the premise of the game does attract men. But said characteristic does not necessarily make it an incompatible choice for female gamers.
And Snow Raven is, in my opinion, incorrect. The female participation in gaming (online or not) is ever increasing. Marketing studies have proven this.
The industry has realised of this, and following the ever so simplistic equation of \"More customers = More money\", their approach has changed in the past years in order to attract the female gender. It would be idiotic for a company that needs profits for subsistance to neglect the possibility of acquiring a larger player base. And as far as I can tell, the successful corporations are not idiotic.
\"theres no women gamers to sell to\"
Heh...I would suggest you go to google and fetch some statistics.
- Golbez
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Published by myvideogames.com
A 1999 survey conducted by the Interactive Digital Software Association explodes the myth that the videogame domain is a boys-only club. According to the survey, approximately 35 percent of frequent console gamers and a whopping 43 percent of frequent PC gamers are female. More girls and women are coming on board, as their comfort levels with the technology and the software rise through familiarity with the internet or products aimed squarely at female players.
1999. I am sure the market has evolved much more since then. Lack of female gamers? :D
They are among us, guys, like it or not.
- Golbez
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Originally posted by Golbez
Draklar, you highlighted just one sentence, but the point is made in the sentence after that one.
I highlighted sentence that is answer to your question. The sentence after that one has no connection to what I said...
Originally posted by Golbez
I meant that yes, the premise of the game does attract men. But said characteristic does not necessarily make it an incompatible choice for female gamers.
I never said it does. I said game producers aim games like that for males. But does it mean same as saying females don\'t play it? No, I don\'t think so.
How many times will I have to highlight the word \"aim\" before you people understand me? :|
- Swords
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my wife\'s a female gamer, and I wouldn\'t have it any other way
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Along the same frame of thought....more to chew on!
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New Study Reveals That Women Over 40 Who Play Online Games Spend Far More Time Playing Than Male or Teenage Gamers
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - AOL
-- Aol(R) Games/Digital Marketing Services Survey Uncovers Surprising Results about Online Game-Playing Habits of Women, Men, Adults and Teens
-- Nearly Twice as Many Adults Have Played Internet Games for More Than Eight Consecutive Hours Than Teenagers
-- Atlanta and Boston Emerge as Two of the Biggest Game-Playing Cities While San Francisco Ranks among the Most Competitive
When it comes to online gaming, there\'s a new champion in town. Of those who play games on the Web, women over 40 play most often and spend the greatest number of hours per week doing so, beating out both men and teens, according to AOL Games\' \"Casual Games Report,\" conducted by Digital Marketing Services (DMS).
The study, a nationwide online survey of more than 3,600 casual game players (i.e., those who have played online games within the last three months), uncovered additional surprising results about men and women\'s attitudes and behavior regarding online games. Adults, for example, were more likely than teens to play online games everyday, and more adults than teens have stayed up all night playing games on the Web.
Women Over 40, the Obsessive Gamers
Even though men spend more time on the Internet each week than women (23.2 vs. 21.6 hours), female game-players over 40 spend the most hours per week playing online games (9.1 hours or 41 percent of their online time vs. 6.1 hours - 26 percent of their online time - for men). These women were also more likely to play online games every day than men or teens of either gender.
The social interaction is clearly an appealing aspect of online game play for this group. Of the respondents who said they\'ve formed friendships through their game playing, more than one in five women over 40 said they had extended that friendship to an offline relationship.
Despite busy schedules, female gamers over 40 make time for their preferred hobby. Twenty-eight percent of them play games between midnight and 5:00 a.m., considerably more than men or teenage game-players. In fact, nearly half of these women (44 percent) said that they spend less time watching TV or movies, reading, exercising or spending time outside as a result of their online gaming habits. And why do they play online games? \"It relieves stress,\" was the answer for 62 percent.
\"The results of this study mirror trends that we see on AOL Games regarding who\'s playing and when,\" said Matthew Bromberg, General Manager, AOL Games. \"While teens and young men have the reputation of playing games for hours on end, the reality is that it\'s their mothers who are far more likely to exhibit this type of behavior - just with different games. Women today juggle more responsibilities than ever, and online games provide a great outlet to relieve stress, interact with a community, and just have fun - all according to their own schedules.\"
Mars vs. Venus
While female gamers\' top reasons for playing online games were for enjoyment or to relieve stress, male game players were far more likely than women - 35 percent vs. 29 percent - to say that they like the competition factor of Internet gaming. Additionally, more men than women said that they play to increase their skill levels.
The type of games that men and women play varies as well. Significantly more male players prefer casino, arcade and sports games then females. Women players, however, have a much stronger preference for word and puzzle games then men. Males were also more likely than females to play online games for money.
The Generation Gap
Another unexpected finding: Nearly twice as many adults who play games said that they have played for more than eight consecutive hours than did their teenage counterparts. Similarly, more adult players have stayed up all night playing games than teens.
At 7.4 hours per week, however, teenage players still find plenty of time to go online to play games. In fact, half of all teen players said they spend more time playing games than reading, and more than one in four said they spend more time playing than they do on their homework.
Top Gaming Cities
AOL Games\' \"Casual Games Report\" also measured the habits of online gamers in ten major U.S. cities: New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Philadelphia, San Francisco, Boston, Dallas, Washington, D.C., Atlanta and Detroit.
Among the findings:
-- Major Gaming Cities: At approximately eight hours per week, Atlanta and Boston residents spend the most time per week playing online games. While Atlanta players seem to be most in need of a stress-reliever - approximately 60 percent of those in Atlanta said they play games to eliminate stress - Boston players appear to be more relaxed. Their top reason for playing games was simply because \"it\'s fun.\"
-- Most Relaxed: Detroit was the only market in which less than half of its respondents use online games to relieve stress.
-- Bored (but Friendly): When asked why they play online games, nearly 65 percent of Dallas players said \"to alleviate boredom.\" Dallas is also one of the friendliest cities. Dallas gamers were among the most likely to develop friendships with other game players.
-- Competitive Spirit: San Francisco had one of the highest percentages of respondents who said they play online games because they enjoy the competition - although that competition often paved the way for romance. More San Francisco gamers reported developing romantic interests through online gaming than almost any other city.
-- Card Sharks: Washington, D.C. players were among the highest to use online games as a means of preparing for a trip to Las Vegas or another gambling destination. Boning up on blackjack can also be very time-consuming. D.C. had one of the highest percentages of game players who missed an appointment such as a date, a doctor\'s appointment or a job interview because of their online gaming hobby.
Methodology: This survey was conducted from December 14, 2003, through January 12, 2004, through OpinionPlace, an online research site operated by DMS. OpinionPlace utilizes real-time, randomized assignment of respondents to surveys based on a scientifically proven process. A total of 3,613 respondents were interviewed. The screening qualifications for this study were males and females who have played online games within the last three months.
Toodles,
Dolnor Numbwit
Order Swordbr?den
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females like playing husband and wife and change clothes, appearances etc etc that\'s why sims is a girls game.
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Most of the girl\'s I\'ve met think games are things for nerds and they don\'t like them. I know one that likes to play The Sims and a few others that play online flash games to burn time, but for the most part I don\'t think women like video games as much as men, and that\'s why the market is that way. Sure there\'re a couple, but they\'re the minority.
Of course, I am basing this on that they don\'t like to play the FPS and RTS games that guys usually play, so maybe if there are more girly games being made then there will be more girl gamers. Whatever.
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Ok, a lot of females play games, so what? I don\'t think people should get so involved with who plays games, and I think Developers are stupid for aiming games at a particular gender, rather than gamers as a whole. Yes, some games do appeal to men more than women and vise versa. But, to design the whole game JUST for men or JUST for women is a bit sexist, imo. Really, I am not sure if the Developers really try to do this, or if it just happens. Because in games like Sims, there are Male and Female Characters, and it is the same way in MMORPGs like PS. So, these can be attracted to anyone who likes that type of game.
Also, some games have just male-only chars, etc, but at times you just can\'t help it. If you get an NBA game, or a male soccer(football) game or whatever, then they will all be males, thus generally appealing more to the males, but not aimed for them only to buy it.
So, in conclusion, I would like to say that gamers should be thought of as one group, one community. There can be a different variety to gamers like gender, race, heighth, and more, but they are still in the same group. Game Developers should realize this and make games that appeal to gamers as a whole, or a type of gamer. Like, Square/SquareSoft should develop their games in a way that RPG gamers like, and etc. with the other companies. That is about the only way gamers should be classified by. Their game preference.
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Even though this thread is oldish, i feel I have to add to it. To be honest, I don\'t see what women can be complaining about. You either like gaming or you don\'t. And saying things along the lines of \"I would like gaming if it was more female-directed\" just doesn\'t make sense to me. Go find a game that you like and play it. If you can\'t, than don\'t play games, go read a cooking book (very female-oriented!).
And yeah, I am female, and I don\'t see what\'s so bad about having lots of guys around. In fact it\'s so much more fun than all the female communities i\'ve had a misfortune to belong to.
I am really not a fan of feminism... It\'s just lame and stupid, and as was said somewhere earlier - its only used when women need it as an excuse for something. When it comes to most hard work, it still gets dumped on men. Personally, I\'m fine with it :P, which is why I despise feminism. Yeah, the two sexes are different, and thats what makes it so wonderful!!!
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indeed, pac-man fever is still alive, and girls have recontracted it again, game up untill ps1 would be almost always genderless in marketing, look at mario, they made a cartoon/ cute world for girls (as they probobly thought would be a good suite) and a challenging(it was hard back then) fast pased video game for boys(as they probably thought it would be a good mix) games after 98 were almost always marketed to men with a few smart ones (like dacula 64/ resident evil) that would allow players to choose who you were, that brought in the results i bet. and i do not mean to be sexest if i come off that way, it\'s just that alot of girls that they market to (6-16?) like fluffy and cute things, along with choices this is due to fads and marketing conspiricy but that is going off track also most girls have recently become more and more themselves but to my observation, all like fluffy things