PlaneShift
Fan Area => Fan Art => Topic started by: Zeraph on September 24, 2004, 07:10:28 pm
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8) Well I think I am now confident enough with my modeling skills to tackle the Klyros:
Here is the Latest Render:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/Kly05d.jpg)
(I will update this as I go. Last Update: Oct 25, 2004)
I am starting to model this as an attempt to eventually make a game-quality model for CB.
But I need lots of suggestions & support because this is really my first full-figured Character model.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/Klyros01.jpg)
Anyway, the render on the left is a High-Res version of the bust, & the image on the right is a Auto Generated Low-Poly model. I am still tweaking the Auto Optimize thing for best results & I think I\'ll make it about 4000tri for the entire model, Then on final Hand Optimizing I can shave it off to about 2500tri, but that is just a guess right now...
The Optimizer creates lots of extra Polys around joints & the mouth that I can get rid of later & still look about the same.
I was working on the waist but next I think I\'ll do some wings because they are fun to do. If you think something doesn\'t look right just say so, I know the eyes probably will not be in the finished model but rather in the texture. I\'m going to gather lots of fan-art now on the Klyros to compare it to while I work on it.
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Could you post a profile of the torso? At the current angle it looks stretched outwards, as if it\'s wide and thin, but that may be due to the lighting or something.
The shape of the head/jaw makes it look unstructured, too much like a fish. I think this would make the bones too weak for crunching or chewing motions, so it would be a major hinderance to any creature which spends >50% of its time above water eating meat or vegetation (rather than, say, swallowing small sea insects).
While you\'re tweaking the auto-optimised version, try to remove that line that runs down the tummy.
One last thing I\'d suggest is to extend the neck, as it looks too squashed down onto the body. As the Klyros can both swim and fly, I would expect it to have evolved a good freedom of movement for the head, aswell as an all-round flexible and athletic body (so keep him slim :) ).
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Thanks I see your point :) NURBS always makes thinks look Cartoon-ish but I\'ll get a Profile for you, I think he is a little to wide in the abs... & a longer but strong & flexible looking neck...
Oh, & the line in the front of the model is just the seam, which will definitely be rid of in hand Optimizing, the way NURBS is set up it is sort of like a stretchy square cloth over some deformed rings, this is just the seam which I probably should have put in the back... :D
Edit: Here it is...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/Klyros02.jpg)
I made the abs better & the neck longer however I think I should make the neck thicker... I\'ll fix the Jaw in Manual optomizing later... the fold in the neck will not show up in the Optomized version & I can\'t really get rid of it right now..
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I added Wings as a separate mesh:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/Klyros04.jpg)
I just wanted to see what it would look like if Klyros were made of chrome.
It\'s Abstract Fan-Art...
I also added a nose & really messed up the face, but I fixed it. I do not think I can add a crest unless it is going to be a separate mesh later on, actually I think it looks good without a crest, but it says they have one on there forehead to make them look like a fish or something...
I had to work a long time to get the wing like this:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/Klyros03.jpg)
But now that I have them looking like bat wings I can tweak them. Just tell me if they do not look right like to big or something...
Right now they are spread out unnaturally but this is only so it make it very easy to make bones for, on one of the earlier versions of the wing I rigged it so it will fold up.
I am not really sure if that looks like the right place to attach the wings onto the body...
Its just wings usually take the place of arms in nature...
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shouldent the wings be on an angle up, and be slightyl wraped around the body. other than that it looks great, try it in silver like on the charicter info page
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Ack! The part where the wings are connected to the body is -much- too thin. Looks as if they could fall off completely, much less even provide -any- flight. They should grow from the shoulders and the hips, to support the Klyros\' weight in air. Look at the image on the PS site:
(http://www.planeshift.it/pix/races/klyros.gif)
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Lets see the, the website describes the Klyros as having a tail, but I am probably going to add one later, but for now I sort of made the back Ridgy:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/Klyros05b.jpg)
I also split the mesh into 2 so I could add holes for the arms & wings:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/Klyros06b.jpg)
Even though the creases look sloppy they will be no more after I convert everything into an Editable Mesh & weld it all together...
Now I\'ll start on making the legs & then the arms...
Then the tail & crest probably, although these will add more polys to the already demanding wings & head, I think the Klyros game model will be something like 3 to 4 Thousand tri to make it look good due to so many extrusions & extremities...
I wrote that yesterday when my internet was out, but now I got my Cable internet back so I am sooo happy today!
Anyway, I\'m goign to make the wings support the Klyros, I acually modeled legs but I do not have a render of that right now, I\'ll probably make the arms first then tweek the wings to look right...
:D
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the \"spikes\" on his head....arent they in more of a \"mohawk\" type formation? and his face seems kinda long
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I got my 3DsMax6 working again when I installed Windows XP on my other computer. lol it is a 400Mhz Pentium II - so it defenately can\'t rin PS, but it is ok for modelling stuff in 3DsMax. I like it becouse my mom is never on it so I can be on as long as I do not have something else more important to do...
It took a while to get the wings in this shape, I didn\'t think the wings would be this hard to shape, but anyway I do not know why, but I spent a long time optomizzing the wings & here is the resalt:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/Klyros07b.jpg)
the polycount is good for the game, & I think it look preaty good.
(wings are hard to make look good while keeping polycount low)
I sort of wanted to see what it woould look like if it was in-game right now so I made this rough render:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/Klyros08b.jpg)
I auto-optomized the head body & legs, I think I do not have to change the leg, but the feet are another matter, something is strange with them but nothing that can\'t be fixed in hand optomizing...
As you can see it is all sort of a ockwared looking stage for this model, once I make arms for it then I can start pooting the parts together & weld the seams... then it will look nice, but it is late right now & I really do not have time to make it look better tonight.
I do have one request for you 2D Artists, since I am making a Male Klyros, I will probably end up making a Female Klyros Model later, so could you sketch some Female Klyros? I estomate I am going to be done with the male in maybe 3 to 4 days but then I have to make animations & such... but I haven\'t seen much on what the female Klyros looks like, could you (If Possable) make a front & side sketch, that is how I veiw the model when modelling most often, what I can do is mount the sketch in 3D & sort of \"tracing\" of the perpotions in 3D from that. I also sort of need to see the back side becouse that is what Klyros players will be looking @ most if they use 3RD Person...
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I\'m sorry to make any demeaning comments about this...for the most part it looks very good, just to me his whole face looks too pointy and fish-like, at least compared to the picture...could just be me misinterpreting it though...
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Ya, I have decided to fix it in manual optomizing, becouse the more I mess with it the more deformed it looks.... :(
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It\'s so cool to see a work in progress :D \'Nother suggestion: add muscle structure to the wings, so they don\'t seem paper-thin.
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actually I know why it looks like a fish. It\'s because you the nose and mouth sticking out infront eyes. If you look at Karyuus picture of the Planeshift Kylros the nose is completely flat and doesn\'t stick out and the mouth is complete flat and also doesn\'t stick out. But other that the face i like the torso you have better than the drawing, I believe you have it just right
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It\'s of course always a tradeoff between poly count and realism, but you seem to be doing a good job at it so far. :)
The head has been commented on already (although I think the crest is not going up the skull but surrounding it, maybe merging with the spine spikes at the back, which, as a result, might be in two parallel rows, not just one), but there are some other things I\'d like to point out:
1) maybe the wings should start even lower, like on the upper legs (see bat in 3))? They still seem to be too small in terms of area. I also think that it might be an option to remove the \"dent\" between the lowest spike and the body. The bone structure in the wings IMO is more like a downward hand. I think the version on the 2d image would be more realistic because it allows for more area coverage if stretched out (I imagine about two or even threefold size of what is shown in the 2d image).
2) While the torso you have looks more humanlike, I think it\'s to be more like in the 2d picture ( i.e. more \"Y\" shaped\" ), because the reduced room will lead to reduced weight, which is important. A bit like flying dinosaurs:
(http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/9020/pterosaur/pteranod.jpg)
Imagine decent legs with this flying dinosaur and you\'ll see what I mean. Look at 3) for a comment on wing structure.
On the same note I need to critise the 2d image for it\'s prominent muscles. While I think there will be almost no fat to smoothen the surface (thus leaving muscles, bones and whatnot clearly visible), I also think that the muscles themselves will be smaller and less bulky. There are muscles that are very powerful but very thin but long. Also, they\'ll need arteries and veins to supply them. Overall I think the Klyros will look extremely slender, stringy and fragile for their size, even more than elves do.
3) the wings need to be able to be folded very tight and close to the body to allow for swimming. Otherwise, they\'ll be creating too much friction in water. Due to their size, they can\'t be used for anything in water (fish don\'t have huge wings), so they need to be folded away almost completely, which can be done with the bone structure I described in 1), but it can\'t be done with the current structure.
Like a bat:
(http://www.batcon.org/batsmag/images/cov14n3.jpg)
4) The 2d image completely lacks an alternative for the wings when swimming. IMO the only way to fix this issue is by adding small extensions to the outsides of the lower legs, possibly reaching down to the feet (i.e. on the right leg it goes out to the right, on the left to the left). They also need to be able to be folded away, however, so that they will not be damaged when running on land (especially offroads). These extensions would enable the Klyros to exert great propelling force with their legs when diving.
5) The feet look somewhat strange because there is no division between them and the legs. They look like what you get when you put on trousers that are way too long for you. ;) So I think you just need to add some sort of division and they\'re OK. But this little thorn-like protrusion in the 2d image is really neat, maybe you can add that while you\'re at it? ;) In fact, AFAIK some animals (like cats, IIRC) also have one of these, so it might even be more realistic. :)
This is hard to explain in plain text, if you have any questions, ask. Maybe I can draw up a sketch of what I mean if you\'d like one.
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I was discussing Klyros anatomy with a friend (http://www.humanremains.dk) yesterday while walking around town, and we happened upon a little something... Look at how the wings are attached on a bat or the pteranodon, the skin is attached all the way from the tip of the wing, and all the way (or in the case of the bat at least most of the way) down the leg. Not only that, but while discussing this with regards to Klyros, it hit me that the drawing on the PS homepage could be interpreted that way as well. I am not saying that it is or is not like that, because due to the angle of the pose you cannot actually see it, but it could just be the case... Just thought that it was an interesting point :)
We also talked about the attachment of the wings, and while suspence of disbelief is important, it would also be rather important to get it Right(TM). It seems that in nature there are two ways of having wings: The first is like what we see in bats and the pteranodon, where the front limb (arm) becomes the wing. The other is in the case of our only real life dragon. The wings on this is a set of special ribs that protrude from it\'s body, covered with skin, enabling it to glide. Since this is basically what the Klyros will be doing, we agreed that this would probably be the best way of doing it realisticly.
There is also the consideration that a flying creature the size of a human (as the Klyros are, though of course slightly shorter), would have an immense chest, and a wing span of some 7 meters. To have it just be a way of, well, jumping very far or fall with style ;) it would be possible, again, to justify smaller wings, and a not-huge chest.
So, there\'s my friend and my thoughts on the subject :) Also, I should add that I agree that the language on the site to me suggests that it\'s a mohawk type thing on the top of the Klyros head ;) And, that the head you\'ve made is a little long, compared to the site\'s description (though it /does/ say that it\'s supposed to have a kind of fishy head).
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I have commented on the gliding vs flight thing here:
http://www.planeshift3d.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=9128&boardid=11&sid=b7916e1e3064bcd8b34c556d234c9a2e&page=1
I also think that the description would say \"gliding\" if it meant gliding, but I may be wrong and I certainly am biased. ;)
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Well, lets see, I made arms & hands, but the hands are not worth keeping, I\'ll get a screen-shot later.
I\'ll try to make the waste slender bud muscular, & the legs skinny, they will look about the same as they are now because when you optimize them there are not enough polygons to make muscles visible. That is why you need to make the texture have shaded muscles so it actually looks like there are curves that are not really there.
That goes for the wings, I\'m going to make them with textured bone shadows that look like the bat or the dino...
The head is so difficult to do because it is supposed to be detailed, & yet it is not supposed to be to much polygons. & I still need to make a tail, although I think a tail will add to much weight, it will have to be skinny. or maybe not @ all...
I was thinking of making the wings go down the back of the legs, I am going to work on it now, it has been more difficult then I had expected but I think I\'ll make it work out.
I appreciate the comments so I can make a believable Klyros model for the game. I still need some Fan Art on the Female Klyros for later when I model one but that is after making animations & such.
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Here is a Current Render:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/Kly1a.jpg)
As you can see, NURBS automatically makes UV Mapping for me however this can get lost from manual optimizing. This is my Texture guide I made myself. It tells me were things will show up on the model While texturing. The model above is auto optimized to be about 3000 Faces, but if I exclude the head & hands it is only about 2000 Faces. this tells me that I need to re-do the hands & head, I was planning on re-doing the hands anyway to make them more human-like but I see how I went wrong with the head. I think I\'ll just model a \"Bald-Klyros\" head without the spikes, then make them a separate mesh so that later I can make different \"Hair-Styles\" with the spikes.
I think I have finished the Legs:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/Kly2a.jpg)
(Game Optimized on the left of each pair)
I went for a slim bird-frog-legs, I was going to do a grass-hopper but I think frog is better for the Klyros... They are skinny because I figure that the Klyros is not as heavy as a human & cannot wear heavy armorer so therefore does not need large leg bones, however the Klyros does need to jump friarly well if they were to be able to get off the ground in the distant past. Watch birds take off, most of them jump right before taking off. & seagulls jump multiple times before taking off. I know because I used to live near a beach & like watching seagulls... it is funny if they trip but that isn\'t that often.
OT: lol, I just thought of something, it would be funny if one or the disadvantages was clumsy, then you fall down sometimes lol.
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Hey zeraph, i just got blender and i followed some tut\'s and made a castle, i am trying to texture it. i have the texture but when i put it on only one side is good, all of the others are stretched and look wierd, i know i did something wrong...
maybe you could shed some light on texturing in Blender and tell e how to do it the right way?
(edit) o wait... are you the guy that used blender for this?... oops i think it may have been some other guy... sorry. anyways if you know maybe you could tell me anyways
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No matter how thin or thick the legs or arms are, they -still- need some sort of visible muscle structure to prevent them from looking like shapeless masses. Same goes for the wings, again :P
By the way, is it just the perspective on that last render, or are the arms really that long..? Seems a bit out of proportion ^^
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WiseKran, I use 3DsMax6 so I really do not know much about Blender other then it\'s free. but I suppose that it is similar to 3DsMax but other people will be more able to help you like lets see, I think the \"Simple 3D Models\" thread (Cherppow) uses blender...
Karyuu, Yes the arms look long because they are skinny & also because the \"Hands\" which I am going to re-do are extremaly long... it will look better when I model proper hands. The Klyros needs to grasp stuff like a human & I sort of have frog-hands on it right now. lol
I do not think the models need allot of detail into muscle structure in the way of geometry otherwise there polycount would be upwards of 6 thousand to make all the muscles show up. I am going to make the arms more skinny then have muscles extrude similarly to the legs. this is mostly auto optimized anyway so I can tweak it later. I can\'t wait for CB to come out then I can look @ the way they are modeled by viewing a wireframe of them in the Cally Demo. then I\'ll have a better idea of how to distribute the verts. I could actually make animations right now & model the rest later. but it would be a shame to do the rigging twice. :]
Edit: if you can see the wrist begins were the red band of numbers is on the arm just like were the shoulders are.
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Well I didn\'t mean extremely detailed muscle structure ;D That wouldn\'t work. But still something a bit more defined.
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Heh looks cool Seraph, and don\'t mind Karyuu, she is never satisfied :P
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I\'m offering constructive criticism, something you, \'Waylander\', can\'t seem to process ;P
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Well, I worked on improving the head:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/Head1b.jpg)
The auto-optimized version (lower left & right) doesn\'t look half bad but I think I am going to delete half of it then mirror it to look more symmetrical. & Yes, I know the head is missing the spikes but I think that I\'m going to make them a separate Mesh later so that I can actually make different versions for different \"Hair-Styles\" & all that...
I was working out some new con-figs for auto-optimizing & came up with this version:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/Opt1b.jpg)
It has 1906 Faces including the head & all, I have started to add good hands but they do not have fingers yet & that is what I am going to work on next.
Here is a High-Poly Wire-Frame Render of the Back-Side:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/Render1b.jpg)
([[[ The fallowing is detailed description of how I think Klyros should be in-game... ]]])
What I think The Klyros is like:
I was just Reading up on what you all wrote about the Klyros & full-flight & all that & want to talk about my thoughts on the Klyros:
I read somewhere that the flying for the Klyros would take up lots of concentration making it useless to do anything while flying which makes them not very good @ being a warrior & or mage or whatever but I think the opposite. I think that it really would not take up much more concentration then you running really fast. I doubt that you have to concentrate allot on how to run, if something was going to eat you I doubt you would be concentrating @ all on how to run. so I think the Klyros have been \"Flying for short distances\" ever since there wings grow large enough (which is basically all there life.)
That said I think the Klyros would make excellent Ranged Weapon & Elemental Magic Users. granted it says on the website they are great fighters but I do not think that means swordsman or whatever... but I think they would excel in fighting with ranged weapons because they cannot sustain much damage they would generally not be in the brunt of were you could sustain lots of damage but prefer to stay back a little strike when the opportunity is right then get out of there before getting clobbered, by using ranged weapons would allow them to strike precise blows without getting close enough to get hit very hard.
[Sort-of-OT] - Also I think the Klyros & Nolthrir & maybe a Xacha or two should get together & invent some underwater ranged weapons. like maybe magically supercavatate them (a certain kind of tip of a torpedo can create turbulence & bubbles that encapsulate the torpedo in a water vapor pocket allowing them to travel faster then the speed of sound underwater. That\'s supercavatating which is being developed for rocket subs IRL) maybe we can have magically encapsulated Arrows or something. [/Sort-of-OT]
There are also many reasons why I think they would make great Elemental Mages:
I\'m quoting from the website:
* \"triple nature\"
* \"the Klyros are fast in all three elements: air, water and earth.\"
* \"They are interested in decorative arts and magic, using those mainly for practical purposes.\"
I would think that using magic in combat would be a very practical use. also they are \"fast\" in \"Air Water & Earth\" which I think would give them advantages in elemental magic not to mention there interest in it.
Also about Full-Flight:
I really do not care if it is aura-dynamically possible for the Klyros to fly or not, it says on the website that the rule is that they can \"Fly for short time\" not fly for short distances. it also says They are fast in Air & also \"many are rich merchants.\" IMO this tells me that they use there ability to fly travel fast & therefore make lots of money as \"rich merchants.\" I also interpret \"Fly for short time\" as-they cannot sustain flight indefinitely or extended periods of time. I think it means that they can Fly until they get exosted & have to rest similar to I think Lions or Cheetahs (one of the 2) they can run very fast for short distances, that\'s why they have to sneak up on there pray. so flying should sap the energy or \"stamina\" of a Klyros so if you want to fly long distances you have to increase your Flight Speed Skill & your Stamina & Energy. There are also considerations for flying magic as-well which takes many. in the CVS for CB there is a \"Fly\" Glyph which means that if you have that Glyph you should have access to flight no-mater what race you are, so it really does not make the Klyros have so much of an advantage over everyone else anymore... I think then that the Klyros should excel in magic using the \"Fly\" Glyph which is probably Air Elemental Magic.
Swimming:
Oh ya, & I think the Klyros should use there wings underwater, there should partially Fold there wings & slowly move them in a flapping movement also kicking with there flipper-like feet. & maybe they use there tail to swim in a similar fashion with there wings? does anyone even want the Klyros to have a tail & if so what would it look like?
lets see I think for Flight & Swimming it should be something like this:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/Tail1b.jpg)
the fins could be retractable & use skinny bones so they do not take up much weight or something. I was also thinking the Klyros may have these retractable fins on there arms like bats but I am still working that out. but actually I really think that the Klyros could do without the tail because it adds extra weight & not much of the fan-art on it has tails in it...
OT: This has to be one of the longest posts I have done...
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You are doing a great job! :D
You said you were going to make fingers, but maybe the Klyros shouldn\'t have very detailed fingers. Since it is a good swimmer it should probably have skin between the fingers just like it has now on your model. Like a duck or something...just a thought :P
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Are you going to apply after CB\'s release?
I really think you should if you have time..
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hey Zeraph great going man, it\'s lookin\' awesome.
Hey I noticed did something you know the Kylros doesn\'t really have any lips? If you look at the drawing of the Kylros again, there are no lips visible, it\'s just a mouth and that\'s it. I\'m not sure if what you have are lips but if they are, they\'re too thick...
[EDIT]: Oh and I like how you did the nose. I honestly think the nose looks better popping out a bit than having it completely flat, nice going dude.
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*applauds* :D
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Originally posted by Androgos
Are you going to apply after CB\'s release?
I really think you should if you have time..
Yes, I think I\'ll have the time. B-Day\'s October 16th I\'ll be 18.
I will have more school to do because right now I haven\'t been doing much lately but I will be once we get signed up & settled in from moving & all that. :D
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Thumbs up!
I\'d like the Klyros to have a tail (I like extremities of all sorts :] ). It could indeed be used for swimming, but it\'d need to be powerful for this, making it heavy. So maybe it\'s more of a steering than a propelling system? However, this job can as well be accomplished by the arms if they\'d have these retractable fins (which I thought of for the lower legs for propelling, because I think the frog-feet woul make them slow on land).
Maybe the tail could instead be a third \"hand\" (without fingers, of course, :) but with the ability to wind tightly around things and hold on). It wouldn\'t need to be thick or heavy for this, but maybe long (for pickpocketing!). :]
[edit]I imagine the tail to be like an Enk\'s tail, just with the fur replaced by the usual Klyros\'s skin. Also, it\'d be more flexible (so they could hold a pencil with it).[/edit]
Anyway, it\'s not a must.
I like the idea of having skin between the fingers, but maybe not all the way (how would they grab a cup?). Maybe the fingers would be longer than usual, but the skin would extend only 2/3 of their length? This way, they could use them to enhance propulsion in water. I imagine them to swim with the arms stretched backwards & next to the body for minimum friction, using the feet / legs for propulsion. I can, however, warm to the idea of using part of the wings to propell underwater, sounds reasonable, but doesn\'t invalidate the above statemets, it could be an additional propulsion system, making up for their lack of streamlinedness or making them really fast.
I also think that flight wouldn\'t take much concentration if it isn\'t special maneuvering. It\'s going to take stamina. However, I don\'t know if the flight would be steady enough to make aiming a projectile weapon feasible at all, unless you\'d stop flapping and glide for this duration, making you vulnerable, however.
For the fighting skills: I think they could be vicious fighters and dangerous towards targets that are either low on armour or that can\'t move quickly enough to get a hold of them. An Enki would be an even opponent as would be a human/elven warrior. A Kran might be at disadvantage but it the Kran manages to hit the Klyros, it\'ll surely break several bones.
This fighting scenario, however, only works if the Klyros would have claws. Of course, small weapons like daggers might be more effective and may be used alternatively, but the abilities need to come from somewhere.
Klyros vs. Klyros would be an airbourne catfight. :]
I however don\'t think that their triple nature makes the Klyros a great magicker. They may have a better understanding of water, air and earth elemental magic, but not necessarily.
[edit] Actually, their understanding of earth magic might even be more limited than other races\' understanding, because they spend less time there.[/edit]
Also, I can\'t think of why they would be prone to become rich merchants, unless it\'s because they use everything for practical purposes & thus don\'t waste energy and time. Maybe also because they can reach hard-to-reach areas and thus can get rich? However, this won\'t help them once they are so rich that they pay ppl. to do these things for them, but in this case it doesn\'t really matter anyway. :)
Wings: I think the bat version would be better, because it\'s more compact and might enable flapping better than the dino\'s version. However, they\'d need to be different from what you have now IMO: the bone that leads from the back of the body to the point at which the bones divide into fingerlike things should be way shorter. This way, it wouldn\'t have to support immense strain that would otherwise be due to it\'s length, and is instead dividedly placed onto the individual fingers. This would also give the wing more flexibility in terms of wingspan, allowing for better maneuverability AFAICS. And they can be folded up more easily / tightly.
Also, this main supporting bone would either need to be variable in vertical direction as well as in horizontal direction or angled upwards, not horizontally. This is because if it wasn\'t, the \"fingers\" would end very close to the ground and thus be easily damaged.
The head: I too think the lips are too pronounced. The neck should IMO be angled fully vertically, because when swimming it\'d be looking in what would be an \"upwards\" direction when standing. The way it is now would only apply to flight, but in this case they would be simply looking \"forward\". I think you\'re right in making the head streamlined and the neck thick so that water will flow more easily around it, although it makes the head look too small. Considering this, the mouth should be at the same horizontal level as the eyes are (in profile view).
The feet: There should be bone structure, not muscle structure (the main muscles for the feet are in the lower legs AFAIK, connected to the feet\'s bones by strings).
The bones: I think the Klyros would have bones that are a mixture of bird- and fishbones. This would make them light, flexible but not very durable. They\'d bend more easily than human / bird bones and therefore wouldn\'t break easily (good for crashing and when hit with blunt weapons), but would be more vulnerable to blades. All in all I think they would not even wear medium armor, because it\'s already heavy and inflexible, both things that would IMO be extremely annoying to a Klyros. Apart from this, I can\'t really see the importance of heavy armor if you have wings that can\'t be protected and thus be chopped off easily. It doesn\'t matter where the pain comes from and where the blood leaves your body... :] Maybe we\'d need to think of a way to armor the wings, at least when they\'re not in use (after all, it\'s more likely to encounter a blade on the ground than underwater or in flight).
I can imagine either a complete wing-cloth that\'s wrapped around them (good for cold days!), or a bodycloth that wraps around the entire body with the wings folded as close as possible. Of course, quick take-off isn\'t an option if you need to unwrap yourself first. These clothes could be as fashoinable as any other clothes, I can imagine finely-webbed white and golden silk, with the house emblems on them. Oooh, the options are endless!
Also, you can have wing-piercings, brandings and tattoos, and maybe even fashionable holes (not too big ones, though ;) ). After all, there may be Klyros who don\'t even leave the ground at all and therefore don\'t mind being wrapped all the time or even giant / countless decorative holes in the wings, or chains / bands affixed to them. Maybe there would even societies in which having not clothed your wings is considered bad taste and you\'re not allowed into any importany places this way? Dresscodes may vary...
Anyway, back on topic:
I don\'t know how to imagine the fins you posted on the Klyros model. :( Can you please show which way they\'d go on the arms / legs / whereever?
Anyway, great work! I think you should definitely apply for a dev position!
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the lips are humungus
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do you think the wings should be something like this?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/Image2.jpg)
(excuse my lacking of 2D art skill...)
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Zeraph i think you are right with that 2D drawing. Just imagine that the klyros would fold his wings while he is swimming or walking (else the air/water resistance would be to big).
Beside that it really is great work so far :)
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Small Update:
Well I worked on improving the Torso:
(http://www.miamihost.net/ims/u/Zeraph/Planeshift/k1b.jpg)
(This was auto-optimized & 2-sided top & right)
I think I have got a good look so I decided to hand optimize it for a better look:
(http://www.miamihost.net/ims/u/Zeraph/Planeshift/K2b.jpg)
The uv map needs a little work but I think it\'s Farly good...
I figure that the Klyros would be built in such a way so that they could compensate for the extra weight in the back from there wings & tail so that is why I modeled it sort of leaning forwards all the time. Think how a bird is always leaning forward to balance the tail & wings...
I think I\'m going to make another attempt on improving the wings, actually I think they should be bat-like but also have the wings stretch down the tail instead of stretching down the legs. This add tremendous support to the wings making them partially usable underwater. they will have to be tough, I think what the website means by \"two big wings that appear to be weak and non-functional.\" IMO that means that they look like they do not work @ rest but are functional, they just look like they are not. so Klyros do not move there wings while standing & walking (even walking underwater.) I\'m sure when we get an underwater map that we will not have a swim ability beforehand so I wouldn\'t worry about that for a while. I just have to make the wings look frail when they are unused, (which will probably be most of the time @ first, I do not know if Flying spells are implemented yet.)
OT: It\'s my 456 post if that has any significance whatsoever... :D
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ahhhh... much better :) his torso was way to wide.. he looked funny
**APPLAUDS**
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Wow, this is really coming along nicely, the face looks /much/ better this way, and what you did to the body now is really good :) And your reasoning with why to have the body leaning forwards is very important, this is not only creative, but a great bit of thinking :)
With regards to the wings, I still have an idea about them being attached all the way down the side of their bodies, akin to the pteranodon or somesuch flying sauropod. Using the wings under water with this design will make the Klyros look somewhere between a mantaray and a legged shark... Which to me seems quite interesting :)
Again, great work so far :)
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Originally posted by Zeraph
do you think the wings should be something like this?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/Image2.jpg)
(excuse my lacking of 2D art skill...)
Savion doesn\'t think that teh wing would attach to such a large area, rather a smaller poing on the back.
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Savion doesn\'t know what he\'s talking about ;P
If the wings aren\'t attached effectively to the body, they will not be able to be used. It wouldn\'t be possible for the wings to carry the Klyros if attached to a \"smaller poing,\" as put. Check out the anatomy of bats, for instance.
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zeraph mentioned something about making the model for planeshift, like a game ready package.
if i ever made something worthy of planeshift, what is the type of file that is used in games?
whenever i save a 3d file in Blender it always saves as a \".blend\" file.
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I do not think it would work if the wing is attached at a thin single point to the shoulder. When in flight, the active forces such as weight, gravity, and air streams would act on the joint which I deem would be too weak to hold the Klyros\' structure together.
Birds pull it off because their bodies are smaller in comparison to their wingspan, but Klyros have more humanoid proportions, and their size would suggest they need bat-like wings for flight to be feasible, as Karyuu claimed before me. A second insertion at the lower back would work, I suppose.
It would be interesting to see how the Klyros are modelled in game, or to have more artwork at hand\'s reach to peruse. A 3/4 view alone is usually insufficient for an accurate model to be built.
Keep up the good work!
- Golbez
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I really needed a side & front view @ least & a diagram of the skeletal structure wouldn\'t hurt ether. That is why it is taking long, I am sort of \"Flying Blind\" or \"Winging It\" so to speak. :D
Actually I really need to take drawing classes to make my own Concept Art. actually if anyone could make Concept Art for the Female Klyros I would appreciate it but no rush since it looks like it may take a little longer to make the Male Model. I can always just \"Modify\" the Male to make more Feminine proportions, however I am not all that familiar with Female Anatomy. then I can definitely make Female Textures & Such... it doesn\'t have to be colored or super detailed, just a sketch as a guidelines to the basic contours of the body... :))
It is not an official assignment from a Dev, but I am going to give it to the Dev\'s & see if they would put it in-game. or just wait & see if I become a Dev after CB when they start recruiting, I basically know how to do allot of the stuff needed to make this sort of thing, I just need to find out how to define reference verts so the model can hold weapons & passably other stuff that I do not know about yet like exactly how to make the .Cal3D reference file etc.
I think that the Klyros would have the wings stretched onto the tail like a Bat.
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Originally posted by Zeraph
do you think the wings should be something like this?
I wasn\'t exactly proposing an extra joint (though I have been thinking about it as well, as it seems like a better option), but more of changing the mounting angle of the main supporting bone. In the PS 2d image it looks like the bone is angled mostly upwards, i.e., it starts somewhere at the shoulder and then goes up and reaches over the head (almost vertically), whereas in the current 3d model it is going horizontally. Of course it can be moved in the flapping direction (i.e. forwards and backwards when standing), but I wasn\'t sure if it\'s angle towards the back (i.e. upwards and downwards when standing) was meant to be changeable.
If it weren\'t, the wings could only be folded by lowering the main bone, thus they would be sticking out at the front.
Anyway, I think that the extra joint is a good idea and would be more usable.
OK, I\'m starting the GIMP now, beware!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v490/Seytra/Planeshift/Image2.jpg)
Yes, it looks like it was made in pain(t)! You can create crappy images using the GIMP, too! :)
Anyway, it shows what I mean.
Cyan: alternative without extra joint, but upwards angle (my original interpretation of the PS 2d image)
Green: new version with extra joint and upwards angle
Yellowish: end of skin
I made the wing a bit bigger, it looked kinda lost otherwise ;)
Also, I moved the \"fingers\" along the supporting bone so that they won\'t all start at the same position, making it possible for the main bone to become less thick (and heavy) while going outwards by reducing the lever forces exerted on it.
Furthermore, the places marked in red could have joints as well. These could be used to facilitate wingsize reduction for swimming and might also help when moving through thickets (to avoid getting stuck, or to get out when stuck).
The thing on the right is my interpretation of the wings when folded in the way shown in the PS 2d image. (Yes, it looks like greenish hair to me, too.)
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Hey Seraph, great model.
I have a suggestion if I may.
Personally, I would change the wings.
I\'d see the wings in a very similar way to a pteranodon or the 2d image of a Klyros.
I\'m going to attempt a quick image to show you what I mean.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/Tyralus/KlyrosWings.jpg)
(Forgive my lack of skill, it\'s been a long time since I drew anything, I used to have some skill)
I also think this is similar to a common depiction of an angel, the garden variety angel mind you, not a seraphim. the way the wings fold, I can\'t see the wings being useful or practical straight out the back like that.
You see what I mean though, the wings are er.. mounted on the shoulder blades and the joint is up not down like you have drawn, this would enable much better flight, and even bats wings go this way.
Edit: Of course the body would in better proportions, and the wings would be longer, and many things would be different.
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I think that the files for characters are in a crystal space format. I\'ve been trying to compile Crystal Space on Slackware 9.1 under VMware, but it doesn\'t like the virtual (8 bit depth ) display. I gues I could get Visual C++, but it might be easier to compile under a real linux box.
Anyway, the files are almost certainly Crystal Space and possibly sprites. I would guess that levels were converted from 3d studio format, the characters from either 3ds or quake etc. character format.
The best way to get an answer would be to ask a dev...
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The Characters are Cal3D I know how to export to Cal3D but do not know how to set up the reference verts so that it can hold things like weapons.
As far as I know they haven\'t even made Concept Art for the male or female Klyros. all FanArt & stuff is basically based on the picture on the website & the load Screen for MB I think:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/splashKly.jpg)
(I forgot about this one... :D )
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Uh I didn\'t even realize that was a Klyros on the MB screen. Strange
Anyways, good job on the modle It looks pretty good to me but the wings are kinda strange
The wings seytra did look more natural and stuff maybe you could modle it like that?
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Originally posted by Adeli
Personally, I would change the wings.
I\'d see the wings in a very similar way to a pteranodon or the 2d image of a Klyros.
However, the extra joint(s) would offer added flexibility in terms of folding that I\'d deem necessary because
1) underwater you\'ll need to fold the wings as tightly as possible, to reduce friction
2) underwater as well as on the ground there will be mostly \"wilderness\", which has many obstacles, throuch which movement will be difficult for a Klyros anyway, so the ability to more flexibly move the wings will help a great deal. A Klyros who\'s stuck is easy prey...
For these reasons, I\'d think that the extra joints would be more realistic evolution-wise.
Also, the 2d image IMO lacks in another respect: the way it is drawn, the wings look like they\'re not even mobile.
Also, the MB splashscreen also suggests the extra joint in the supporting bone and IMO also hints at the extra joints I\'ve been proposing. However, the crest in this is clearly crossing the head, not surrounding it as the 2d image IMO suggests.
Anyway, it all boils down to the question: should or shouldn\'t there be an extra joint in the supporting bone, and will this bone be angled horizontally upwards or downwards?
For the reasons I stated, I\'d say there should be one, but the supporting bone should be, for these same reasons, mounted in a way to allow being moved to any of these directions.
The way I\'ve shown in the right part of my image I see as the \"normal\" way of folding (i.e. when walking causally), and this would look very similar to the 2d image, which would then be \"within the margin of error\". :) Furthermore, the inconsistency of the crest IMO proves that this margin is greater than I originally assumed so we\'re free to change this stuff.
Originally posted by Adeli
the way the wings fold, I can\'t see the wings being useful or practical straight out the back like that.
You see what I mean though, the wings are er.. mounted on the shoulder blades and the joint is up not down like you have drawn, this would enable much better flight, and even bats wings go this way.
On reading this I remembered that Zeraph initially stated:
Originally posted by Zeraph
Right now they are spread out unnaturally but this is only so it make it very easy to make bones for, on one of the earlier versions of the wing I rigged it so it will fold up.
So maybe the wings weren\'t even intended to be going straight horizontally and we\'ve been arguing a point that we in fact all agreed on from the start.
@ MB splashscreen: I\'m not sure it is a Klyros, for it looks so different compared to the 2d image. It might be a MOB. I\'d say there\'s a probability of only 65% for it to be a Klyros, I\'ve been wondering about this ever since seeing it.
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I think I have basically finished the wing, I re-did it for best looks, & made a very quick animation of the side view of the wing folding:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/KlyWingTest1.jpg)
View Animation: http://www.geocities.com/zeraphsmirror1/?KlyWingTest1.swf (Flash)
I was going to make the wing have 2 stretched skin one attached to the legs & on to the tail, however I need to make a tail first. I did some texture UVW mapping & made a test texture that didn\'t turn out right, but you get the general idea of what can be done with the text:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/KlyWing4b.jpg)
Then I turned my attention to the head & made a Crest for it like a Mohawk, this is the High Poly vision:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/KlyHead1b.jpg)
this next one is the head optimized, I am far from done with the head, but the Crest is basically done as one of versions or \"Hair-Styles\", it only has 84 tri:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/KlyHead2b.jpg)
I actually like the MB Splash version of the head, because it makes the Klyros look More lizard like & streamlined for swimming. sort of like I had the head in the begining...
& then I worked some on the hands in High-poly, however the optimized version doesn\'t look to good so I\'ll just show you the highpoly version:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/KlyHand1b.jpg)
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Wow, aren\'t the wings a bit big?
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Yea, I have to say that the whole process has been looking great.
The wings do look a bit -uh what is the word...Oh yea- HUGE. I don\'t know anything about moddling though so, whatever ya\' all think looks the most resonable.
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I can easily resize the wings, but to make the wings realistic to support the Klyros they need to be large as people have said... I can defiantly make the wings less able to support the Klyros, but I think that since this is the extent of how the wings can expand, I doubt that the wings will be extended like this all the time...
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What an overall improvement! I absolutely love the head! The whole mohawk appearance of the crest... *swoons* I wouldn\'t say the wings are -huge-, though you could try to cut the length a tiny bit.
Thumbs up :D
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INCREDIBLE!
I have watched this from the beggining, and seen it develop all the way through, and it looks fantastic now.
may i ask why you uswe that texture? and what its purpose is?
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Great job! While I originally didn\'t like the mohawk idea much, it turned out very well, especially with the reasoning of streamlining.
The low poly version looks very \"punky\" to me, though... :)
To all of you who think the wings are too big: I think they\'re still too small, if only in the vertical direction (when standing), I think they should be 150% of the current size. Obviously, most of the additional size would go to the upper end, because the lower end will need to be above ground level. :)
Also, I think there is a problem with the perspective, since the spikes on the back can\'t be visible from the sides. If they were, that\'d mean that the wings would be perforated by them, which isn\'t advisable. :)
I can\'t view the animation, though. :(
Edit: stupid question mark... Anyway, this is just the way I think the folding should be!
For the hands: if they are covered in skin completely, the Klyros would not be able to handle most tools (scissors, for example). Maybe this is the intent, but I\'d say it would be reasonable to leave the skin off for sections 1 - 4 (or maybe even 1 - 5). This way, they could use the normal tools, but woild still have difficulties with them. They obviously need special clothing already, therefore special tools would be as reasonable.
Overall: Great job!
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Hey i just got 3dsmax6 can you send my your 3d klyros file, i am new to 3dsmax (been using blender) and i wanted to take a look at something in there and see how things work
maestermathias@gmail.com
thank you!
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WiseKran: Are you mad? Do you want SPAM that badly?!?
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Gmail blocks most of spam and you can report spam to gmail.
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Most email providers do, but
1) a certain amount always gets through
2) it clogs the transmission lines, increasing cost of operation
3) it ends up being stored somewhere, if only briefly, also adding to cost
4) each email address can be sold, therefore it is just like giving the spammers money. As SPAM is like organised crime (and, in fact, increasingly co-operate with virus / trojan creators and organised crime scenes), this is, all by itself, a reason to avoid it.
This is like saying \"why should I not cross the road when there is heavy traffic, there are hospitals\"...
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\"gmail\"=my junkmail/address i give out to people that i dont trust.
sry about the brutal honesty
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Of course (I do the exact same), still I\'d try to keep the amount of spam to the absolute minimum possible. At least I\'d \"encrypt\" it by adding things, spaces and removing the \"@\", things like this. Also, I\'d have used a PN for this request, since this isn\'t a general request.
I have a deep-rooted hatered for SPAM and would [removed to avoid moderator intervention] them if I could get away with it.
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may i ask why you uswe that texture? and what its purpose is?
When you uv map something, the idea is to have the texture be applied as accurately as possible. That texture is to see which areas are being applied correctly, and which areas are being stretched. If the squares are squares, that is a good thing. If they are all stretched, that is a bad thing. I\'m sure Zeraph will tweak the uv before he is finished, so it\'s not really important as of now, just something to give the unfinished model some color.
I love the wings Zeraph! The animation is great. I think the wings may be a tad big, but not really all that huge. Great work!
:emerald:
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so will you send it already? maestermathias@gmail.com !!
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Zereph! Why aren\'t you on the dev team yet? Join now because that is one of the most amazing models I have ever seen in this Fan Art section.
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Much better Zeraph, that\'s exactly how I envisioned the wings. You never cease to amaze.
Icefalcon: He\'s going to apply when CB is out IceFalcon. I think he figures they are a little busy now.
OT: Wisekran: Master Mathias? Anything to do with Suikoden?
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Originally posted by Adeli
Icefalcon: He\'s going to apply when CB is out IceFalcon. I think he figures they are a little busy now.
Sounds good, I want him modeling my dream game. :D
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Originally posted by Adeli
OT: Wisekran: Master Mathias? Anything to do with Suikoden?
no actually, it is a reference to Final Fantasy X, Maester Mica and the like :]
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Well, I have been busy, I think I\'ll work on the Klyros tonight maybe, & I was thinking what they are missing & it hit me, Gills!
They need Gills to breath underwater, however maybe these are in the lungs? I think it would be more realistic if they had them however I do not see them on the pics I have of the Klyros... Probably be markings on the neck or somthing...
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Well, I don\'t know if it would be strictly necessary, but it would certailny be more efficient.
If the gills were in the lungs, they\'d have to have very powerful muscles to squeeze the water out and suck new water in rapidly to fulfill the oxygen requirements, especially when swimming fast.
Gills, on the contrary, are a streaming system, i.e., there is an almost constant flow of water through them, in only one direction (not reversed as with lungs). This can of course have a higher throughput with considerably less effort, which would make it way more efficient.
However, both systems could share the same space. For both oxygen carriers (water and air), it\'d be less efficient than a specialised system for each, but still much better than a cycling system like lungs for water. A specialised system wouldn\'t be good due to the extra space and weight it\'d require, which would create more problems for both flight and swimming.
Therefore, I\'d say they have lungs that are gills, so that they operate depending on the element they\'re in. If in air, the gill-outlets close, enabling normal lung-operation. In water, they open and the water is being streamed through (nose/mouth -> lungs -> outlets).
For this to work, I\'d envision the gill-outlets to be somewhere between the ribs (probably at the left and right sides of the torso).
It might also be required to increase the diameter of the breathing channel in the nose, head and throut to allow water to pass through more easily (because of it\'s higher viscosity, for the same diameter, considerably more pressure is required to get the same volume of water through than air, therefore requiring more effort, making it inefficient unless the pipe diameter is increased to let the water flow more easily.) The increase won\'t hurt for air. You could also have additional inlet-openings at the throat to not require a giant nose. :) These would also only open when in water.
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I added a tail & yes, I think the hands look big too...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/K01a.jpg)
I improved the legs quite a bit, & I decided I\'m probably going to make the wings attach to the tail:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/K02a.jpg)
I got the arm looking OK, I should have got a top view instead:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/K03a.jpg)
Then I did some UV Mapping of the wings:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/K04a.jpg)
I was just wondering if you think the wings would look better attached to the legs instead? I\'m going to try that & see how it looks...
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Originally posted by Zeraph
I was just wondering if you think the wings would look better attached to the legs instead? I\'m going to try that & see how it looks...
The Wings are not attached to the arms, so i wouldn\'t attach them to the legs either. Otherwise the wings have to be twisted a lot and that looks really unnatural.
Or you could attach the wings to the arms and legs, then you get bat-like wings. But then the Kylos wouln\'t have arms anymore and that\'s prolly not your intention.
As you can see the wings attached to the tail also look a bit strange: so personally i would them attach only to the shoulders and his back (this way you get bird-like wings).
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It\'s looking much better but I think the legs are too small and the arms are too large...Love the new wings, though maybe you should do as Taldor says and just have the attached to the shoulders and back...
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Wow, this is really good :) About the wings, I think that doing something between what you said might work. I.e. you could attach the wings to either side of the tail in stead of on top of it. It might also work to have the wings attached to the back of the legs (in stead of the tail as it is now). As mentioned above, having the wings attached to the side of the legs would look silly :)
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Wll I tried attacking the wings to the back of the legs earlier & I think it looks better on the tail, on I think I\'ll attach them on the sides instead of the top because I see how that would help. actually the back isn\'t finished because I was thinking of spikes on the back like a large fin, maybe it can be part of the hairstyle mesh, sort of like having really long hair like the Female Ynnwn in the screen-shot only it is attached to the spine & tail. maybe different types of spikes in the future? I know just how to make it work in Cal3D...
But anyway here is the wings attached to the back & down the legs:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/K05a.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/K06a.jpg)
I think it looks better on the tail...
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Yup wings attached to tail looks better.
I wonder when we will meet the Klyros in CB :D
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I think the wings should attach to niether the tail or the legs. They should attach down the back, but should stop at the legs. Why do they need to be attached for such a long distance? The muscle is contained in the extra arm thing that runs the length of the wings, and all the lift/speed are being produced by the ends of the wings. The wings look great though!
:emerald:
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Looks very good!
While I\'m not completely sure which version I prefer, attaching the wings to the tail seems to be better ergonomically, because they\'d be able to land more easily if the legs can be freely moved, which they could not if they\'d need to hold the wings in place. Therefore, I\'d say the wings should attach to the tail.
On another note, the tail should start approximately half of it\'s diameter higher.
Also, the tail is of about the right size I\'d say, because it needs to be strong to support the wings and balance them to allow for extended steering.
However, it needs to be flexible so that they can bend it upwards while walking so that it will not touch the ground and get damaged by obstacles. Bending it forwards (between the legs and up) would look... strange at best :D ). Maybe they\'d just curl up the lower part of the tail.
The upper arms look too thick IMO, the legs are OK (they can\'t be thicker for the extra weight, and not less thick, because they need to support the body and run).
I also think that the hair mesh idea would be a good idea for the spikes.
Very, very good!
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Originally posted by ArcaneFalcon
Why do they need to be attached for such a long distance? The muscle is contained in the extra arm thing that runs the length of the wings, and all the lift/speed are being produced by the ends of the wings.
This isn\'t because of extra power, but because of extra area. The bigger the area, the better they\'ll be able to hover, i.e., it reduces the required flapping frequency. Increasing the area at this position (i.e., near the body) will have the same effect as will increasing it at the tips of the wings, but it\'ll require considerably less effort to flap, because the extra area will not need to be moved a great distance with each flap, it\'s weight will be at a shorter lever, the movement speed of it will also be way lower, and the friction will also have a shorter lever. It\'ll not add to lifting power (for gaining height), however, which is the only backdraw of addign extra area at this position, but since it requires so few extra power, that isn\'t a major problem (i.e., adding extra area at other places in addition to it will not be harder because of that).
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I do not really have a clear reason, but the face does not look right. Maybe the wings should be a tick smaller when coming close to the back so there would not be any problem with connecting them to the legs/tail...
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I see, yeah, down the back of the legs = bad idea, I agree :) Thanks for showing it :) Just hit me what the down-the-side-of-the-tail would be like; it would make the Klyros resemble a manta-ray with arms and legs :) Not a good/bad thing, just an observation *giggles* :) Also, I\'d say that reading Seytra\'s message regarding having the wings attached to the legs, it would indeed make it difficult for Klyros to land gracefully (though not impossible).
Your idea with the spines down the back, like having long hair as you say, seems a great idea to me. It would seem a good way to differentiate one character from another, the same way other races have hair styles. Size of the spines, maybe defined by a beginning point and an ending point, and a maximum height (so you could move it along the line defined by your spine and over the top of the head and define how large it is, during character creation) would be a very good thing :) Of course, if something like that gets implemented, some serious work would need doing to the character creation system, methinks, but that\'s another story ;)
Randomly, but in key with the discussion of why the wings are so large: I remember being told by a friend (same friend I was discussing it with a couple of weeks back, see earlier messages in this thread) that if you would have a person about the same size as a human being (like the Klyros (or, which was the case with what she was telling me about, an angel), even with light bird-like bones, would need a wingspan the size of around a Boeing 737 to take flight. That would be a good reason as to why the Klyros only flies for a short while, even with the large area they have here :)
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Zeraph, I am not sure how easy this is, but could we have a shot of it in the standard position (the way it would look while doing a buisiness transaction) and/or sitting. Just so I can get a look at how the wings fold up while it is doing \'ground\' work as compaired to flying. It would make them really tired to have their wings fully extended all the time and I am just curious.
:) If not that\'s fine also. :)
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For that he would need to finish it by adding the biped.. its very anoying to add a biped (need to get evey bone just right) and you\'d prolly have to use more pleases in your request to get him to go through that :p
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Well, I usually do not use BIPED because the skeleton structure of most of the stuff I model is not humanoid, however I\'ll have to add bones to the BIPED for the wings etc.
Of course I\'m going to fold the wings with bones, but before I do that, I need to finish the model, I\'m going to make the arms look better & then finish the face. after that I need to join & tweak the model & then I can add bones then animations such as walking attacking & all, they will mostly be with the wings folded I personally want the face to look like it does in the MB splash:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/splashKly.jpg)
I think this way makes it look more oval-like:
\"They have an oval head\" as it says in the description on the website...
That\'s just how I see the Klyros anyway, it makes it look more natural, the face on the website almost looks like it doesn\'t belong on the Klyros imo.
\"Nutrition:
Being great fish hunters they tend to eat a lot of fishes and shellfishes. They are famous for cooking crabs in thousands of ways.\" -website
Wouldn\'t this effect the facial structure?
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Originally posted by Zeraph
I think this way makes it look more oval-like:
\"They have an oval head\" as it says in the description on the website...
That\'s just how I see the Klyros anyway, it makes it look more natural, the face on the website almost looks like it doesn\'t belong on the Klyros imo.
Well, it looks very much liek a human face to me, too. However, the Enki faces are very much like human faces, as well. I think the reason for this is that, of course, a human-looking face is more pleasing to the human eye (natrurally), and therefore it just tends to happen if you\'re going to model something that you consider \"human\".
Originally posted by Zeraph
\"Nutrition:
Being great fish hunters they tend to eat a lot of fishes and shellfishes. They are famous for cooking crabs in thousands of ways.\" -website
Wouldn\'t this effect the facial structure?
\"You are what you eat\"? :D
Seriously, I don\'t think so, because they don\'t catch the fish with their mouths, but with their hands IMO.What influences the look isn\'t the diet, but the environment. This, of course, can mean that a streamlined face is preferrable (aero- and hydrodynamically). Considering that the face will be looking in the direction of swimming, the head from the splashscreen seems reasonable. However, the head from the 2d image might still be feasible, but probably not be that optimal.
Another thing is that you have mounted the head in a forward angle, which is, IMO, not realistic, since they\'ll, when swimming, need to \"look up\" most of the time. Therefore, it should be mounted vertically.
Also, to ease this, the eyes should not be overshadowed by the eyebrows and the forehead, to better facilitate this and to reduce the need to bend the head backwards when swimming.
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Originally posted by leinir
I see, yeah, down the back of the legs = bad idea, I agree :) Thanks for showing it :) Just hit me what the down-the-side-of-the-tail would be like; it would make the Klyros resemble a manta-ray with arms and legs :) Not a good/bad thing, just an observation *giggles* :)
You\'re right. :)
Originally posted by leinir
Also, I\'d say that reading Seytra\'s message regarding having the wings attached to the legs, it would indeed make it difficult for Klyros to land gracefully (though not impossible).
No, but it would make it nearly impossible to land on small or vertical surfaces like mountains or building walls (although I suppose they could just hang on by their hands). I wouldn\'t mind if they had to land sort of lying on the floor, though, but that\'s most likely not the case anyway, seeing that birds seem to land \"nose up\" as well (probably due to the same reason why aeroplanes need to land with the tip up).
Originally posted by leinir
Randomly, but in key with the discussion of why the wings are so large: I remember being told by a friend (same friend I was discussing it with a couple of weeks back, see earlier messages in this thread) that if you would have a person about the same size as a human being (like the Klyros (or, which was the case with what she was telling me about, an angel), even with light bird-like bones, would need a wingspan the size of around a Boeing 737 to take flight. That would be a good reason as to why the Klyros only flies for a short while, even with the large area they have here :)
I have been thinking about this, as well, but it might not have to be this way. This image
(http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/9020/pterosaur/pteranod.jpg)
seems to indicate that the wingspan of this pterosaur is not as giant as one might expect, only about three times it\'s body length. While of course the legs can be counted as \"missing\", the extra-large head with the tip on it\'s top would IMO compensate for it. I, however, must admit that I don\'t know the size of it, so it might be tiny, although from what I seem to remember, they were about the size of a small human, so it would fit.
Also, the area of it\'s wings looks like it is about the same size or even smaller than the one we have for the Klyros.
Should have edited the other post. Ah, well.
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Certainly, but relatively the size and weight of the pterosaur is very different.
The size of the wings is squared, but the size of the body is cubed (this is why 300 foot ants aren\'t possible--Cross section strength of their legs.
TECHNICALLY, to support a large humanoid creature such as the Klyros, wings many times bigger would be needed. They would have to be maybe at least 20 feet long.
(Pictures of \'Pegasus\' are an example of a problem; to support a horse much more than that wingspan is needed)
But heck, this is Planeshift. It\'s a magical world. Who cares if it\'s all technically correct. But the bigger the wings you have, the better.
Do you know why in real life we don\'t have any humanoid sized FLYING birds? Because it\'s unpractical given earth gravity and air pressure.
Look at the ostrich. Maybe at one time it could fly, but then it got too big to support its own weight.
That\'s my $1.43.
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According to the website the image comes from, there are finds of pterosaurs that suggest a wingspan of 15 to 20m.
Originally posted by webpage
What is the largest known pterosaur?
Until the 1970\'s, the largest known pterosaur was the North American Pteranodon, a genus with a 8-meter (25 feet) wingspan. Then along came a pterosaur with a wingspan that may have been twice as wide. Discovered by a team headed by Wann Langston, this behemoth was named Quetzalcoatlus, after the Aztec feathered-serpent god. Based on extrapolations from smaller pterosaurs, the partial skeleton would have fleshed out a creature with an estimated wingspan of (hold your breath) 20 meters (65 feet)! This is actually the upper range of the estimates, and most paleontologists accept a more modest spread of 15 meters (50 feet). Biomechanists wondered how a creature with such a wingspan could possibly flap its wings without placing enormous stress on its wing bones, but the general consensus is that it could have flown, albeit with slow, deliberate flappings of the wings, as many large sea birds do today. By the way, Quetzalcoatlus is not only the largest known pterosaur, it is also the last.
Could even larger pterosaurs be lying in the ground waiting to be discovered?
Paleontologists and biomechanists believed that Quetzalcoatlus had approached the size limit for the largest flying creature. Anything larger than that would, theoretically, have faced so many difficulties in trying to fly that it simply would not have survived long enough to propagate itself. But then again, that\'s what they said about Pteranodon before the discovery of Quetzalcoatlus.
These would then theoretically have been able to support a human?
Also, there are two questions that I have:
1) this formula, does it indeed relate this way? I mean, of course area is squared and volume is cubic, but how does supportable weight equate to required wing area? I don\'t have that formula (not to insult you, just to state that I don\'t have it, or any other formula that might deal with this subject.).
2) the usual bird takes it\'s prey away, to some other place. Pterosaurs of this size would require prey of considerable size, thus they\'d need to also support it\'s weight. Therefore, the relation might not be that bad.
Furthermore, I have said on another thread:
Originally posted by Seytra
As one can see from the images of these, the wings weren\'t disproportionally large compared to their bodies. This means that a Klyros could achieve full flight given that (as already stated in the description) their body weight is quite small compared to their size. This is possible, because if the average bird did have the same bone structure as a human, it wouldn\'t be able to fly, either. Also, the description clearly states that the Klyros are physically less durable because of this fact, so it\'s more than just some minor decrease in weight (as you recall, elves usually weigh considerably less than a human of the same size, but are not considered to be much less durable). A Klyros of, say, 1.8m height would, IMO, weigh about 25 - 30 kg. This even _is_ possible for humans, as people who have eating disorders are reported to weigh around 40 kg with a size that would require ~ 80. If we now give them birdlike bones, they will weigh around 25 kg even without further modification. Therefore, assuming an optimised skeleton (fewer and thinner bones), birdlike bones, less flesh (just muscles and some fat to keep them warm), could easily bring them down, even accounting for the additional weight of the wings.
So it might be at least somewhat reasonable to have them fly.
Also, a note on the wings and damage:
Originally posted by webpage
Weren\'t their wings fragile and susceptible to injury?
Much of the earlier thinking that pterosaurs were weak flyers stemmed from the perception that their wings were fragile structures, easily susceptible to injury. After all, bird wings consist of several feathers that can be replaced one at a time without an appreciable loss of support; and bat wings are supported by four elongated digits that prevent a tear from running down its entire length. A pterosaur wing, with only a single finger to support it and no internal reinforcements, was thought to be inferior. But recent studies have disproved it. Closer examinations of several beautifully preserved specimens showed that the wings were reinforced by closely-spaced fibers called actinofibrillae. These stiffened the wing and would have prevented a tear from running down the entire length.
And something on bone structure which might be important:
Originally posted by webpage
What other adaptations did they evolve?
The pterosaur body was highly adapted to enduring the rigors of flight. Many bones are fused together, providing a sturdy framework for the muscles and other organs. The pelvic vertebrae had in fact fused with the pelvic bones, providing a shock-absorbing structure (the synsacrum) that braced the animal when it landed. In larger pterosaurs, the pectoral vertebrae were similarly fused in a structure called the notarium. The sternum, or breastbone, had a keel that provided an attachment for large pectoral muscles, and a forward projection, the cristospine, may have functioned much like the furcula (\"wishbone\") in birds. Many rhamphorhynchoid fossils show the outline of a flap of skin at the tip of the tail that may have acted as a rudder, and the neural spines were likewise elongated in some. In order to reduce weight, pterosaur bones were hollow; indeed, they were even thinner than many avian bones.
Uh, long post again...
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A few lift equations:
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/aerodynamics/q0015b.shtml
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/lifteq.html
They show that WING AREA is important.
And sure, if you had Klyros with 60 foot wings, I would be happy. But who wants to play a game with things walking around with HUMONGOUS wings?
Eh, I guess I\'ll drop accuracy in the favor of game graphics.
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Those don\'t prove anything. First, if you look at the equations they need coefficient Cl which is all the complex dependencies determined by experiments. Every wing is different, so each wing has a different lift coefficient. Who knows, maybe the Klyros have incredibly efficiently designed wings. Second, the Klyros have a relatively light frame, meaning they require less lift:
Just under the shoulders they have two big wings that appear to be weak and non-functional. The skeleton is thin and flexible to flight easier, but is easily damaged. Thanks to their body structure, the Klyros are fast in all three elements: air, water and earth. (Setting section on PS website)
Third, the lift calculations on a gliding wing and on a flapping wing are 100% completely different. You\'re right, if Klyros needed to be able to take off gliding from as fast as they can run then their wings would need to be huge. However, their wings flap, which means that on the downstroke their wings create much more lift than a gliding wing would. On the upstroke the wings would fold in a bit and tilt forward (maybe it was backward, can\'t remember) so as to create less drag as they set up for another downstroke. Fourth, the rules section on the Klyros part of the setting guide on the PS website says, \"Fly for short time.\" I take this to mean that they can\'t fly indefinitley, which also means their wing simply only need to be large enough to carry them in short bursts.
In conclusion, smaller wings are fine.
:emerald:
edit: fixed some grammar
:emerald:
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Even if it not 100% accurate, which would be nice but impossible for a game...
You do not know what a klyros\' body structure would be like you don\'t know what its muscles or bones are like, so this is a difficult argument either way.
Most of all, this is a game! It\'s not appropriate to have 20m wingspans on a model, so you just have to go with the artists thoughts on it, despite the technicalities.
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Thanks for the formulae!
So, I don\'t think that altering the wing design of the Klyros would help to such a great extent that it would, by RL theory, allow flight. However, maybe the air in PS is different in that it allows for flight with far less wing areag? I just imagine flies with minuscle wings. :D
Well, I\'d like to have everything as accurate as possible, but obviously there need to be some breaches in that, or it wouldn\'t be a game. We are used to the effective immortality of characters already (where would the fun be if you\'d die from the first two hits you take from a sword? What fun would it be if you\'d be crippled by the first hit? Or if you\'d take months to heal? :) ) Clearly, magic is another major breach. However, we\'d need to examine the effects of altering some laws of physics, like altering the properties of air.
I expect a Klyros to weigh about 25 to 30 kg, including wings. Maybe even less.
The formulae just reminded me of something, however! hang gliders! These can obviously carry a human, and their wingspan isn\'t as giant as one might think. So, while they can only glide, by imagining flapping the wings, it might be possible after all to lift half a human with it, which would roughly equate to a Klyros, even in normal air, with unmodified physics! Maybe I\'m wrong, but it is surprisingly close IMO! o.O
Edit: Eureka! I think we have been missing a highly important fact on this issue:
pterosaurs in-game! I mean, these are way bigger than even a really fat Klyros, and their weight will be many times as big! Also, one can ride them and they can carry significant additional load! So, after all, it doesn\'t matter if the Klyros would be able to fly IRL, the breach is already there big time! Furthermore, this means that the Klyros\'s \"short time flight\" is a result of some reason that doesn\'t have anything to do with their weight or the size of their wings, which brings this issue back to my original assumption: lack of training.
Everyone can run at reasonable speed for a short time, but to enable running for several hours, training is required. Therefore, to me it is clear that there is the need for a flight option in the body development section, by means of which a Klyros can gradually extend it\'s general flight ability and the maximum flight duration (and maybe also speed). Maybe we can also have an \"emergency\" option that\'d enable them to push themselves way more than usually possible, to get out of immediate danger or help someone in such danger, just like everyone can do IRL as well. Obviously, afterwards, they\'d be wrecked for several hours, which IMO would compensate for that.
Edit 2: I\'d still leave the wings as big as we have now, and that we also try to improve their performance and durability as much as we can so that we\'ll have it as justifiable as possible.
@ Zeraph: I\'ve mentioned placing the \"finger\" bones of the wings along the main supporting bone, instead all at the tip, to reduce strain. Did you miss it in my long post, or did you not like it (same for the extra joints)? I\'m not insulting you, I\'d just like to know. :)
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Just a reminder: This is a game, the Klyros is a made up lifeform, it can only fly for a short time, ... so explain me why are you writing endless posts about how the modell should be designed to match reality (and its restrictions)?
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Originally posted by Pegasus
Just a reminder: This is a game, the Klyros is a made up lifeform, it can only fly for a short time, ... so explain me why are you writing endless posts about how the modell should be designed to match reality (and its restrictions)?
Because
1) the more realistic it is, the less pseudo-explanations are required to create a consistent world, so it will not fall apart upon the first closer look
2) reality influences our perception of the game world, so we expect it to be \"somewhat realistic\", therefore it is sensible to avoid totally unrealistic things unless they\'re specificly intended (like magic). If it looks halfway realistic and credible, it\'ll not rise questions as easily so the immersion isn\'t likely to get hurt
3) reality can sometimes provide good ideas and explanations (like how the wings can be made not to tear apart if getting a minor wound)
4) I want it to be \"as possible as possible\". I want a model that at least has some hints of reference to realism
Of course we could always attach the wings to the toes, and have them be of about 1cm^2 in size with a body the size and weight of a hourse and just say \"this is a game, and it\'s made up, so leave us alone\", but that would IMO just plainly suck.
I don\'t see what the flight duration would do to lessen the validity of any of my points, though.
I know perfectly well that it\'s all made up. I can, however, not see what damage it does to discuss it. You are as free to ignore all of my posts as anybody else, and as long as bandwidth and diskspace don\'t cost ridiculous amounts of money, I don\'t see anyone getting hurt. After all, there might be someone who is interested in it, so what\'s the problem? I\'m not SPAMming or anything.
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While I do generally agree with your Seytra, I have a feeling the devs did not put this much scrutiny into creating a Klyros, else they would not be as they are.
Interesting point about the hang glider... Zeraph\'s wings are around that size.
Only thing is, if their wings function like that, why can they only fly a short time?? It should be wind dependent, shouldn\'t it? Birds can glide for days.
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1) thats a matter of perception - not many people think about the fact how big wings need to be to support flying. Thus if you present them with a Klyros with wings twice as big as they are now (on Zeraphs model) they would probably find it unrealistic.
2) Most people lack a reality influenced picture of a humanoid creature that is flying. Thus whatever you show to them looks unrealistic. Beside that many people are influenced from other game realities.
3) Well you are right about that one although your example doesnt fit into the game (a Klyros will probably not lose its wings).
4) Hmm could you give an explanation to this one? Why do you want it as realistic as possible? Would you be annoyed if Planeshift wasnt as realistic as you expected it? How important is Planeshift in your reallife? How important are (online)games?
Klyros\' probably can only fly for a short time cause the person that invented them didnt think about wingspan and lifting equations. ... Or the Klyros used to walk and swim more for the last few million years and thus is not as good in flying as he used to be.
But most likely it is to prevent an uber-character (that can fly, dive and walk)
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@ Adeli: that may very well be the case. ;) However, I still think that fly in fact means fly, not glide. There\'s a huge difference, because in order to glide, you only need to hold your wings in place, like what any human does when standing (sort of). For flying, you need way greater effort. Thus I\'d say it might be possible for a Klyros, given the proper winds and whatnot, to glide for very long time (ior at least considerably longer than flying). This, however, is unlikely to be implemented. Also, I\'d say that they wouldn\'t be able to glide infinitely without training, just as you can\'t keep standing infinitely.
To me, it all boils down to training and thus to body development. It should take a Klyros the same effort to become a long-distance / high-speed / high-mass flyer as it takes a human to do the same for running, becoming a great fighter or powerful mage: serious effort. Thus, it will not be something that any high percentage of Klyros (and their players) will consider worthwile.
@ Pegasus:
1) so it is in fact a matter of knowledge, even if it sounds superstitious. I agree that ppl. who are used to smaller wing size might find it strange if they were larger, but I\'d also say that, since they didn\'t think about the small wings in the first place, they wouldn\'t think much about the bigger ones, whereas other ppl. who did think about the smaller wings most likely will appreciate the bigger ones. However, I\'m satisfied with the current models wingsize, especially due to the hang gliders.
2) I particularly like this statement of yours, because it obviously is true, and well put. :) I must concede this point to you with the minor exception of the hang gliders, which will provide this reality-influenced image to some of us, though probably not too many.
3) Most likely not, but, until I read this article, I was starting to wonder about that, and that wings of this size would be so susceptible to damage that it would be highly unrealistic to not have them chopped off easily. With this new information, I now have a conclusive and even scientific explanation. This means that I can now easily accept that, as long as losing arms / legs isn\'t implemented, losing wings wouldn\'t need to be, either. Otherwise, I\'d always have thought \"that\'s just not implemented, but it could never have survived that\".
4) I have already given the rough explanation as an implication: personal preference. However, my answer to 3) also contains one: I tend to question things like this, and if I end up with the answer being \"engine limitations\", the immersion gets a notch, because I\'ve found reality affecting the world that should not be affected by it. If enough notches accumulate, the illusion falls apart, and with it the immersion, and the game world is reduced to it\'s actual form: a program (like in the movie \"the matrix\", it\'s like seeing the world as the code and loosing the feeling of immersion). Hard to explain, but it happened in NWN (I\'ve told the reasons on another thread, which I can quote if you\'d like)
Anyway, if it isn\'t as realistic as I would want it to be, it all depends on the properties of the missing realism. I can accept unrealistic things as long as they don\'t hint at reality affecting the game. Otherwise, I can \"tolerate\" a few, but not many, which I actually regret (NWN is a nice game). In any case, I\'d be annoyed, but obviously the degree of annoyance depends on the offending property. :)
How important is PS to my RL? Not very much, I\'ll certainly be able to live without it, just as without online games in general.
However, everyone requires some way of relaxation and gaming, and this is very important. Whether this is provided by PS, online games in general or any other recreational activity depends entirely on the person, and I\'m sure that I can find other ways to achieve this (in fact, PS or online gaming isn\'t my only way even now). However, I like PS and therefore would much prefer if it were here to stay.
Originally posted by Pegasus
Klyros\' probably can only fly for a short time cause the person that invented them didnt think about wingspan and lifting equations. ... Or the Klyros used to walk and swim more for the last few million years and thus is not as good in flying as he used to be.
But most likely it is to prevent an uber-character (that can fly, dive and walk)
Yes, maybe, and yes. Point a) doesn\'t require any argument AFAICS, ;) point b) could be the case, however it might also be that they didn\'t require more from the beginning and thus didn\'t evolve it, which would, of course, have the exact same result. I think that this can be addressed by the second part of what I directed at Adeli, which IMO also is valid for point c).
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Seytra: I like the idea that they need to become strong in flying etc, endurance training sort of. It works well.
Pegasus: I don\'t think it was that the devs didn\'t think of it, but rather chose to ignore it, as they knew it would be impossible to have it realistic... 15m wingspan for a Klyros is a little silly.
I enjoy these discussions don\'t you?
OT: Seytra... what was it that has you disillusioned with NWN, as an avid D&D fan, and owner of NWN I am interested.
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Your post helped me to understand why you want it as accurate as possible.
I asked those reallife related questions because i wanted to understand why you want the game to be as real as possible. I thought that you may be one of those players that are really addicted to games and happily live just for the game (therefore it would make sense to me of creating a \"real\" world). However also from your answers to the 1-4 points i could see that your motivation is a different one.
I think the same thing that you describe as \"illusion falling apart\" happens to me, though on another level. Since i am studying economics i am paying more attentions to numbers. On most games this will really make you go crazy :) If you take runescape you can grab an exp caculator and see how long it would take to reach a certain level. Immediatly i think: \"Is that all worth it?\" and then i drop the game. I checked out pristontale, examined how long it takes to reach the first few skills, then saw that the game doesnt improve and hasnt got much else to offer (after checking out an exp tabel for pristontale i knew why i should drop it).
Like the examples above this happened to me in many games (planetarion, shattered galaxy, a-tractor, neocron - early p2p stage, ...). Some games i didnt even start to play after reading some of the documentation. Of course i have excluded the community aspect of these games - however they can not merely help over a flawed system (they wouldnt help the flaws you see in the game either i suppose).
Back to the Klyros: Your idea of body development being the major factor in flying is a very good idea.
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I\'ve been busy working on other things, expanding my Knowledge of 3DsMax & everything & I remembered I needed to get something done on the Klyros, so I decided to work on the head, It is proving very difficult, here is what it came to:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/KHeady1b.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/KHeady2b.jpg)
Here are some videos showing the head @ different angles:
http://www.geocities.com/zeraphsmirror1/?KlyHead1.dcr (Shockwave3D-16kb)
http://www.geocities.com/zeraphsmirror1/?KlyHead1.swf (Flash-300kb)
I do not know why I went with chrome but whatever...
but then I decided I was just about through with trying to make the head look good & decided to mess around with it to bake a texture & came up with this:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/KHeady3b.jpg)
The UVMap is messed up a bit so that\'s why there are black places...
I sort of like it this Way, however I need to fix the nose, but after all this, I think I\'m going to actually abandon the head for now, it\'s to much trouble right now, I\'m going to focus on joining the model & starting the texture maybe... I was thinking what it would look like, would it be scaly or smooth & shiny? it\'s just that I remember the website saying the Klyros\' skin is wet & slimy like a reptile, but there skin is dry & smooth, I\'ll probably go with shiny-skaley....
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It looks... ok.
The face definately needs some work, or else it just looks repulsive without a texture on it. :rolleyes: Either way, it looks repulsive.
Also, I think the crest needs to be thicker, it looks paper thin...
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Right now you\'ve mastered the Ogre look. Just need turn it into an elegant Klyros ;]
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Well, I think that both nose and mouth need to be reduced by about 50%.
Anyway, as for the skin: I think they meant to say not reptiles, but amphibians (like frogs). These have a wet / slimy skin, and would also more closely match what the Klyros are. If you decide to go with scaly and dry, make the scales very small so it\'ll not be discernible whether it\'s scaly or slimy. :]
@ Adeli: I\'ve sent a PN to you explaining the details so that it\'s not going to further fill up the thread OT-ly. :) Anyone else who might be interested, just PN me.
@ Pegasus: Indeed it wouldn\'t help over these problems. I think I can consider myself lucky because I\'ll at least initially have fun with the games.
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It\'s mesh-smoothed on the left & low-poly on the right. (The Low-Poly is what counts in-game)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/Kly04d.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/Kly03d.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/Kly02d.jpg)
Here is what it may look like if I had a texture on it:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/Kly01d.jpg)
(however the UV mapping is messed up & needs to be fixed)
Website: \"Regardless of their appearance, they are not an evil race.\"
- This would imply that the Klyros would have an \"evil appearance\". I\'m saticefied with this face Becouse it sort of looks like the Klyros could be evil without it being overly evil-looking...
I basically paterend this Klyros head from the MB load screen one:
[img]
(& Yes, That is a Klyros)
But I\'m trying to make the head\'s size fit the body naturally, imo it\'s still somewhat small but I\'m working on it & just wanted your opinion on the head, this is for the most part what I imagined the head would look like on a lizard-fish person. however it still needs some tweeking it\'s basically what I was going for. if you think it doesn\'t look human enough, look @ the Enki Head closely in-game. It seams to be much much more Cat-like then Human-like...
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Ah, much better. The head doesn\'t look small to me, looks fine. Its beautiful :D
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Nice job on the head! I think that looks almost perfect. Much better than the last head.
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The head remindes me of those clay worms from Eurica\'s Castle. Anyone remember that show?
Anyway, it does look good. Sorry to be a pain about the head again but the drawing of it in the races page has it with a much flatter face.
(*Edit - Post 300 woot! I\'ve been here far too long to have only posted 300 times...*)
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Well, I\'m not entirely sure about the head. Sure, the MB splashscreen suggests it like this, but the 2d image doesn\'t, and this somehow \"feels\" more \"official\" to me, and also, despite the Enkis having less human-like faces, they\'re still way more human-like than this one, and so are all the others (even the Kran are more human-like than the current head IMO ;) ).
After all, we as humans of course have a certain idea of what an \"attractive\" head / face looks like, and this I believe to be the reason for the human-likeness of all the model\'s heads.
This might, however, just require some \"getting used to\", and, apart from that, the current head doesn\'t look bad.
Ah, well, let\'s just give it a dragon-head and all the dragon-human-hybrid-ppl. will be happy as well. ;)
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Well I have been working on finishing the model & am basically happy with the result:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/Kly05l.jpg)
(Game-Model (Polycount: 1305tri) on the left MeshSmooth on the right)
I re-did the hands & came up with this:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/Kly06l.jpg)
(Female Klyros Hand)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/Kly07l.jpg)
(Male Klyros Hand)
I figure that the hand will look human only with webbing (& probably claws in the future) only they need to have use of there thumbs so I suspect they wouldn\'t have webbing on them.
Also I change the feet:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/Kly08l.jpg)
I think this way will allow running & the ability to swim fast & still look sort of what the feet on the website look like....
I still have to optimize & tweak a couple of things...
Also I wanted to add some spikes from the head down the back & down the tail as the default \"Hair Style Mesh\" which will be unchangeable when you select it. Then I need to split it up into different meshes & current the UV map & then after all that is done, I can start texturing it or Rig & Animate it...
I know it\'s sort of in an unnatural pose but that\'s necessary to put bones on correctly, makes it much much more difficult when surfaces are closer together...
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Nice hands, I know that\'s probably one of the hardest parts. And the wings are awesome too.
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Honestly...I think it\'s terrible. Start over Zeraph.
Aaaand I\'m just kidding. :P Looks really great Zph. Fabulous work!! I especially like the new hands and feet. What\'s with the blank space in the wings though? Looks like there\'s a bit of blank space under the crest also...
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it looks like he didnt weld the verts on the skin flaps to the wings bone structure. easy to fix.
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Actually I did that on per pus to save on many polies it is welded just MeshSmooth doesn\'t work well with verts welded in 3 ways...
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Well done Zeraph, it looks great, but aren\'t the arms too long? The look like they\'d come down past his knees... I think they would look better shorter. When I stand, my hand comes down to about mid thigh.
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It\'s reaaly good!
However, there are some mino things:
1) I think the fingers of the male hand are somewhat short and
2) While the arms might be longer than usual (though I can only guess at their length) it might be rasonable, because it\'d be easier to grab things underwater with longer arms, since it\'s less easy to (quickly) get close to something when in water.
3) The spikes at the back look too pyramidal to me, especially further down. I think they should be about the same length to base ratio as the crest\'s spikes.
4) I miss the spike at the back of the lower legs, but that\'s just me. :)
The mesh smoothed version looks really good IMO (apart from the \"unconnected\" areas), and with a texture I thin itll look really beautiful. Well done!
:emerald:
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I haven\'t put the spikes down the back yet so that\'s going to add some polys, actually I was thinking of adding some spikes to the back of the legs also as part of the \"Hair Mesh\" if you want a better renders of the current version check it out here: http://www.geocities.com/lightningseraphim/Klyros.html
actually the male hand\'s fingers are exactly as long as the female (Just with a bend modifier that makes them thicker for some odd reason) & yes I see that the long arms may be to long, I just couldn\'t get the proportions right were the elbow should go. I think I can fix that. (shorter arms = less mass while flying) actually I think the arms are even a little to thick for the Klyros bone structure (skinny arms = less water resistance), also I think the back & chest would be quite muscular compared to the other parts of the body because the Klyros needs the extra muscles to move there wings... The legs are ok, but the arms make the legs look short which is odd... After tweaking some more I\'m going to rig & animate is & see how it looks...
Edit: Oh Btw, Meshsmooth ads 3x the polycount per literation & this one has about 2 iterations so the MeshSmoothed version is 1305 X 3 X 3 = 11745 tri (ouch) but this does come in handy when making a texture, if you use Render to Texture, you can actually make a low-poly version have almost the same shadows as the smoothed one so it may look almost the same only with low-poly. It\'s a nice way to start a texture, you know were the shadows should be & can add detail onto that.
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everything else looks great except the head. The nost isn\'t supposed to stick out like I said earlier. Now unless your purposely changing then it looks good but if your trying to keep the original design like on the art then get rid of the nose and just make it flat. I\'ll draw a picture later to show you what I mean.
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I went for more of the MB loading Screen look:
Originally posted by Zeraph
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v122/Zeraph/Klyros/splashKly.jpg)
probably going to do some more modifications of it but it\'s basically what I hoped the Klyros head would look like... :]
I can\'t seem to get any of the devs on IRC to respond yet, waiting for niber to get on so I can ask him about it... Talad is just to busy.
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Originally posted by Zeraph
I haven\'t put the spikes down the back yet so that\'s going to add some polys, actually I was thinking of adding some spikes to the back of the legs also as part of the \"Hair Mesh\" if you want a better renders of the current version check it out here: http://www.geocities.com/lightningseraphim/Klyros.html
Oh, I see it now! The hair mesh idea is a good one IMO.
Originally posted by Zeraph
actually the male hand\'s fingers are exactly as long as the female (Just with a bend modifier that makes them thicker for some odd reason)
o.O In this case, maybe replace the male hand by the current female hand, and make the female one even thinner for the actual female hand...
Originally posted by Zeraph
& yes I see that the long arms may be to long, I just couldn\'t get the proportions right were the elbow should go. I think I can fix that. (shorter arms = less mass while flying)
True. However, don\'t make them too short, they are still in use so therefore they wouldn\'t degenerate.
Originally posted by Zeraph
actually I think the arms are even a little to thick for the Klyros bone structure (skinny arms = less water resistance), also I think the back & chest would be quite muscular compared to the other parts of the body because the Klyros needs the extra muscles to move there wings...
Also true.
Originally posted by Zeraph
The legs are ok, but the arms make the legs look short which is odd...
I didn\'t actually notice, but you\'re probably right.
Originally posted by Zeraph
After tweaking some more I\'m going to rig & animate is & see how it looks...
I have some ideas for emote-anims.
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Looks awesome. :) Not happy with the wings being attatched to the tail though... it just doesn\'t work, unless there is also a membrane attatching the tail to the legs, but then you\'d be looking at a creature not suited for walking at all.
To cut down on the polycount, you can do away with the 3D headcrest and just put a flat plane there. The texture applied to it would then use alpha channel transparency to define the spines and the skin shape.
:tup:
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Originally posted by Moogie
Looks awesome. :) Not happy with the wings being attatched to the tail though... it just doesn\'t work, unless there is also a membrane attatching the tail to the legs, but then you\'d be looking at a creature not suited for walking at all.
Why wouldn\'t it work? OK, maybe the tail needs to be a tad thicker in order to hold the wings in place, but otherwise I don\'t see a problem.
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Long tails on land animals are primarily used for balance. In fast-moving predators they also serve as a rudder to turn sharply while running at speed (but only if the bones are fused). Tails also serve as a counter balance for some species of animal, particularly if they would be top-heavy without one.
The point is, a Klyros\' tail would most likely be somewhat flexible, as it would also help with swimming. It\'s likely that having the wings directly attatched to it would cause problems in flight, such as the whole body becoming unbalanced, or being completely unable to steer.
I would then say that Klyros arn\'t built for sustained flight like that, and the tail attatchment should be fine. But the wings on this model are far too huge to just serve as \'gliding\' equipment, so let\'s not even go there... :)
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Originally posted by Moogie
The point is, a Klyros\' tail would most likely be somewhat flexible, as it would also help with swimming. It\'s likely that having the wings directly attatched to it would cause problems in flight, such as the whole body becoming unbalanced, or being completely unable to steer.
Maybe... I was expecting the tail to have highly powerful muscles that would serve to hold it in place. There wouldn\'t be much strain on it during normal flight, as the wings will move up and down synchroneously, but there might be problems when turning sharply, since then the wings would be involved to give extra propulsion / repulsion (and thusly be moved in almost opposite directions at any given time). Maybe if the tail was as thick as the legs are, it\'d have enough power to do so...
Originally posted by Moogie
I would then say that Klyros arn\'t built for sustained flight like that, and the tail attatchment should be fine. But the wings on this model are far too huge to just serve as \'gliding\' equipment, so let\'s not even go there... :)
We\'ve been through all this already, just coming from the opposite direction. ;)
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is the klyros goin to fly or glide? If it were to fly then we could put points into body develoment and we would fly longer but have to come down, then you have to wait double the time you flew to be able to take off again, and lifting off of a flat surface might make you air time less because it put\'s great strain on the wings.
personally i would LOVE to be able to fly and like...i don\'t know.........not just float but actually fly....
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Krahan, you obviously didn\'t bother to read this thread, since otherwise you\'d have found that
- there was, despite the relatively clear, albeit short wording on the race description, some confusion on this matter (I hope you did at least read the description)
- this confusion has been mostly removed
- the current conclusion is that they actually can fly
- that the body development idea has been proposed and received well already
If you, however, didn\'t even bother to read the description, I\'d rather not see you in-game. :tdown:
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Ya usually it helps to read the starting of the thread. Then you dont get people complaining about what you say. Tips for the future.;)
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sorry lol i was a little confused and yes i read every single races discription...sorry again
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Hi Zeraph, I was looking at this post, and I just got 3D Studio Max... and I was wondering, could you post the current model in that format for all of us?
I sincerely apologize if it was already provided or asked for.
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I don\'t think he is going to release it just yet. You don\'t want other people messing around with your models when you are still working on them (especially if this is going to be in-game).
:emerald:
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No he definitely won\'t... it\'s not finished, he\'s going to try and submit it, so yeah.
Plus, he\'s busy testing CB like you Arcane.