PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mezasa on October 02, 2004, 08:19:45 pm
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This is just something to help with the bandwith when CB becomes available. Just make the game into a Torrent file and then show people where to get BitTorrent. I would gladly help do this, but it would be hard because I have a slow download, so by the time I got the torrent up, most people would already be downloading.
BItTorrent (http://bittorrent.com/)
Everything need can be found there. This is mainly directed toward the Devs, and they may already know about it. It would GREATLY reduce your bandwith though, because the more people that are downloading, the more people are uploading. It\'s a great system, and it can provide extremely fast speeds for popular downloads. Remeber though, leave it open after your downloads are complete. Help other people downloading to. If your not gonna be home and don\'t mind leaving your computer on, open up the torrnet and just upload to people. If nobody participates, then this will not work well.
BitTorrent works with anyfiles, and is very simple to use. If you need anymore help, just ask.
EDIT:
I\'m not sure if my post clearly says it. It will help with CLIENT download bandwith, not gameplay bandwith.
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I think they might be planning on doing that already,
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Well, I was just downloading some stuff, and thought this would be good for them. I didn\'t know if they already had it planned or not. For people who use P2P prgrams, this is a better solution for you guys.
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bit torrent isn\'t p2p
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I\'ll probably be downloading turruts & stuff, I\'ll probably put it on a p2p if I can & you can get it from me but I am not sure...
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BitTorrent would probably be a _necessity_ I daresay during the intital public release... most defintely should have one.
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I hope it won\'t be the only way to download CB since I do not use such programs...
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Peer-2-peer? I though BitTorrent was. I may be wrong though. I think using BitTorrent would be great. I would really help out the 56Kers with the automatic resume download.
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They are easy & free to use, you just download the client then click the link, then it starts downloading the file............ :D
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bit torrent isn\'t p2p
BitTorrent IS P2P. The whole concept is that the people downloading share the pieces that they have already downloaded with the other downloaders. People who do not have their firewall setup to allow incoming connections on BitTorrent ports are given a lower priority and thus download slower. There was a Bit Torrent thread before, but I suspect that it has been deleted.
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We have ofcourse discuessed this matter.
What\'s the usall time before we have a forum post commenting the news? From 5-10 min.
That means if we say CB is 300MB, there will perhaps be 10 persons downloading the first 1-5 min, then it will raise VERY quickly. Which would give a download rate of SKB (Seconds per kilo byte).
So using some sort of P2P is nessecary indeed
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torrent is a great system to use.
Problem with torrents (and all other p2p programs) is that you need enough recources to be able to download the file with a good speed.
To get enough seeders and start the distribution of the file, the file should be released 1 week before the official release date.
When you release the file in a password protected rar-package, ppl will start downloading it and sharing it on a big scale. This way p2p will start working like it should be.
On the release date, you just publice the password on the site and ppl can start playing CB :)
They used this system 2 weeks ago for the (1,6gig big) Forgotten Hope mod for Battlefield. It was very succesful!
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And how many people will just get a rar password cracker?? :P
Edit: Haha. beat you :D
Edit2: Well, if they made a 16 char/digit/special char password, then it would hold out for a week unless someone here has some overkill PC (More than mine ;)).
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Xolon that whole password protection thing is a really good idea in my view, but what if people cracked the password?
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most rar passwoord crackers are for the old version of winrar.
besides that, you need a big list of \'possible words\' which the crack then uses to find the password.
This means that if you make a pass like: .:CB-have_fun:. will become very hard to crack, if not impossible :P
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encrypting it and releasing the enycrpted file is a good way to build up the hype before the actual release. kind of like what valve is doing with steam and hafe-life 2.
with a lead time of about week, the encrytion doesn\'t need to be very strong, just reasonably obscure, and custom built. when the time comes for cb to finally go live, you just post the decryption program on the website.
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Originally posted by Levski
I hope it won\'t be the only way to download CB since I do not use such programs...
Bah, P2P and filesharing has been given a bad name for copyright violations, but there are other uses for it which, in fact, have been the real reasons it has been created, just like the internet itself (free sharing of information, unencumbered by physical locations or political disagreements and such).
The fact that it\'s being abused by many ppl. doesn\'t make the concept unethical or lessen it\'s ability to be used for what it was intended for.
I\'ll be happy to P2P PS if the protocol ensures that I\'ll be getting the \"real thing\", which AFAICS BitTorrent does (and MD5 helps with other P2P solutions).
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Haha! That would be really fun :)
\"CB is released, but you can\'t play it\" :D
Some fans might even create a new SETI@home or CRACKCB@home or something :)
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I doubt that a 300MB RAR file would be hard for someone who knows what they are doing to crack if they have 1GB of RAM or more. You don\'t need to open the whole archive to see if you have the password right.
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Originally posted by theRealGorbulas
I doubt that a 300MB RAR file would be hard for someone who knows what they are doing to crack if they have 1GB of RAM or more. You don\'t need to open the whole archive to see if you have the password right.
Bruteforcing takes ages, unless you have some supercomputer. I doubt that anyone here has a supercomputer.
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Even if it is cracked, you need a server before you can play.
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Originally posted by Xordan
Bruteforcing takes ages, unless you have some supercomputer. I doubt that anyone here has a supercomputer.
Does rar have decent encryption? And still, if a password is used, bruteforcing isn\'t that hard. If you use some 4096 bit PGP-like key for it, that\'s another matter...
Originally posted by theRealGorbulas
Even if it is cracked, you need a server before you can play.
Doesn\'t matter, one could use the CVS server and it would suffice for doing some screenies and familiarising with the GUI and char creation options.
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Actualy, does RAR have WinZip like encryption where you can see a list of the files that are in the archive? There could be a clever trick involving CVS...
I still don\'t understand why you would release it early and not let people use it.
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Originally posted by theRealGorbulas
Actualy, does RAR have WinZip like encryption where you can see a list of the files that are in the archive? There could be a clever trick involving CVS...
That\'d only work if the CVS did contain the actual art, which it will not until the official release date is there, AFAIK.
Originally posted by theRealGorbulas
I still don\'t understand why you would release it early and not let people use it.
Because if it weren\'t this way, millions (OK, hundreds :D ) of ppl. would be wanting to d/l it, but once they have downloaded it, they\'d quit The BT client so that they can have full resources for playing. Therefore there\'d be 23 seeders (the devs) but hundreds of leechers, which would mean that the rate of d/l is looooow.
By making the encrypted version available prior to the official release, the file could happily spread to the whole audience, and there\'d be plenty of seeders (since there\'s nothing else to do, and it creates interest), so that only a tiny fraction would be left leeching at the release date, which can be easily acommodated by the existing servers (SF, fragnetics).
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Originally posted by Seytra
That\'d only work if the CVS did contain the actual art, which it will not until the official release date is there, AFAIK.
But the CVS contains many files that will be in the official release.
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Indeed it does contain the full CB release even now, so you could indeed run a CB server and client already. However, this will not help, since the art and rulebases are not in the CVS yet, making the whole gaming experience rather boring. :)
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You missed the point. If the file in the RAR archive can be extracted, but still encrypted, you could compare them with the known contents of some files to try to extract a key.
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Indeed I did.
Anyway, that would indeed help. However, if the encryption is strong, it might still take more than the time till the official release (the proposed week might be short enough), but I don\'t know for sure.
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I\'ve programmed Java encryption on numerous occasions (in fact I made have a program that might be useful for this kind of thing, though I plan to sell that...) and I can tell you that even 64 bit encryption is hard to crack all by itself (I\'ve looked at encrypted text... it\'s gibberish, not even any understandable letters). You\'d need some serious computer power to crack it, and once you get into 128 and 256 bit... it\'s ridiculous. Unless you\'re talking about owning your own super computer, you\'d be in for a long wait. The password on the other hand, is a different story. Then again, it\'d still take a while, especially if some sort of required delay were programmed in.
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Then again, it\'d still take a while, especially if some sort of required delay were programmed in.
It\'s open source.
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Why are we discussing the encryption merits of this? It only needs to last--AT MOST--a week. At worst, we\'ll have huge server loads.
Also, maybe we should have these people using it on the other filesharing networks also--Edonkey, Gnutella, etc.
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Whoa, I wasn\'t expecting this much conversation. I just wanted to throw the idea up for the Devs if they didn\'t already know. If the Devs don\'t want to do this encryption stuff, they could release it to *trusted* people (i.e. mods) who wouldn\'t mind helping. I\'m sure they will think of something. I don\'t get the resources stuff so you can download fast. I have a 1.7GHz with only 256MB RAM, and I download full speed. Maybe I didn\'t understand that correctly.
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There really is no need to start a torrent early to build up seeds for downloading. Already there are ~15 people with the full client (how many are in the closed test right now), another 20-30 will come in the next closed test phase, and then of course there are the devs. If a few of them agree to start up a torrent and seed for it, everyone can get good speeds right away.
Besides, 200-300MB for a torrent is not large by any means, a week in advance would be overkill.
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Heh, the Sims 2 came out a week before launch on SuprNova.org! Apparently Maxis was pretty mad about it, but there isn\'t much they cold do. There were some issues, like not being able to build, but they were quickly resolved. 3.5 Gigs is just too much for me to download though...
After a few people get some of the donwload done, it will just keep getting faster and faster until everyone has it and nobody really downloads it anymore. I hae another question though, will people w/ MB recieve and update, or do we have to re-download the entire game?
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Originally posted by Mezasa
I hae another question though, will people w/ MB recieve and update, or do we have to re-download the entire game?
Re-download. There is nearly nothing left of MB in CB, so you\'d have to \"update\" just about everything anyway so a complete re-download is more easy to do and the effort of making it \"updateable\" would be a waste.
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Originally posted by theRealGorbulas
Then again, it\'d still take a while, especially if some sort of required delay were programmed in.
It\'s open source.
Just for the record, any encryption program they wrote would NOT use CrystalSpace and would be used only to distribute CB, not be a part of it. Therefore it would not have to be open source.
Back on topic: Ghostslayer is right, assuming of course, that the closed testers get the final version... Then again, there\'s also the option that the devs release the client all at once, but don\'t start a server up till a few days later. Most people will understand that if they wait they\'ll get better DLs. The devs and those that DL from the main site will start torrents and everything will be good. :)
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People don\'t even have to be finished downloading really. Most people\'s (if not everyones) upload is slower than their download. Therefore, if they are half done, and start uploading, they willprobably finish downloading before they need to upload the final parts. I guess it really depends on how many people, but after a few hours, I\'d say it woul all go smooth. It\'s not like it will take ages, just a few hours, and then people will start downloading faster and faster and faster. Then after the initial bulk of people, it will gradually decline, and eventualy you will probably have to use the HTTP, unless the devs keep seeding.
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*Nodding, nodding* Yup, sounds good. Now the devs just have to do it...
P.S. On an unrelated note, I believe the new Blizzard download client is a torrent-based program... If the multibillionaires are using it, why not PS? :D
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You can\'t use time delays anyway. Computer clocks are not guaranteed. You cannot make it check with a time server because that would be silly AND easily overriden. If you need to distribute it before the release(I still fail to understand why), just don\'t launch the server.
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Couldn\'t they release unencrypted the rar file, and just pause the signups?
Like only devs can create a new account until they release it officially?
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hmmmm ok so is the exact size all figured out yet i mean there is already the first wave in and so there must be a round number of Mbs it is now just in case cause still even using bit torrent and other speed up programs it will still take a long time for dail up users and still in turn need to find a cable/dsl user to dl from
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I was hoping that if it were possible they could also have a BT download that is just the art to reward the faithful testers who have been puttering around with the CVS version and it\'s un-artyness...
josePhoenix
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I certainly hope this won\'t be the only way to download it. My computer has an allergic reaction like I have *never* before seen to some programs. No matter how many times I wipe it or how many components I change, I cannot get it to download a few files, and every single version of the BT client I\'ve tried stops at 99% downloaded and simply will *not* go anymore. >.<
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Originally posted by Ghostslayer
Already there are ~15 people with the full client (how many are in the closed test right now), another 20-30 will come in the next closed test phase, and then of course there are the devs. If a few of them agree to start up a torrent and seed for it, everyone can get good speeds right away.
Besides, 200-300MB for a torrent is not large by any means, a week in advance would be overkill.
still alot for players who don\'t have dsl or cable. And 30ppl seeding over the world isn\'t much, knowing loads of ppl will download CB.
hehe, funny how one reply can turn a little thread in a big active discussion 8)
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Originally posted by theRealGorbulas
You can\'t use time delays anyway. Computer clocks are not guaranteed. You cannot make it check with a time server because that would be silly AND easily overriden.
I think it was meant to be a self-extracting archive that requires a password and will simply wait some time if you entered the wrong password before letting you try again. Still, with some creative programming, this delay could be gotten rid of, but as has been said, the server will IMO not be open and one week isn\'t all that long to be worth the effort. I\'d assume the ppl. who still do it would have earned a look at the 1337 content, if they manage to bust it within a week. :)
Originally posted by theRealGorbulas
If you need to distribute it before the release(I still fail to understand why), just don\'t launch the server.
To give everyone the option of an immediate start. The first few downloaders would otherwise be the only ones who don\'t have to wait 3 days to complete the download (which in itself isn\'t possible for everyone, especially if you pay per minute!), and also the ppl. on non-broadband connections wouldn\'t be at a disadvantage because they can as easily get it within a week as can broadband users.
Therefore, everyone who wishes can sign up immediately (thus swamping the server :P ), which is a good thing, for it\'s as fair as it can AFAICS get.
Originally posted by Typhorean
I certainly hope this won\'t be the only way to download it. My computer has an allergic reaction like I have *never* before seen to some programs. No matter how many times I wipe it or how many components I change, I cannot get it to download a few files, and every single version of the BT client I\'ve tried stops at 99% downloaded and simply will *not* go anymore. >.<
\"The\" BT client? There are innumerable (well, several) clients. Try ABC, or Azureus. They\'re all available from http://www.sourceforge.net
(use the \"search\" facility and you\'ll quickly find them)
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ya i used a few..BitTorrent...BT++
but Azureus is really good...nice UI and no problems with any torrent (yet)
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A streaming system like it is used in Guildwars would help with that matter.
However, i would make the client available before the official release. Just turn off the servers so that nobody can log in and play.
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The problem with that, specialfighter, is that the server code is open source--you could make your own server.
Personally, I use Shareaza for p2p (it\'s open source, does most stuff, can do bittorrent, etc.).
Any estimated release dates for CB ;) ?
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The server is open, but the crucial data the server uses is not. There would be no benefits to running your own server other than looking at the new artwork, but there will be screenshots to do that already. Encrypting the data is pointless, and actualy poses a disadvantage to people who need to compile the code because they will be thirty minutes to a few hours late getting into the game.
(delayed sending: cable broken)
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Originally posted by theRealGorbulas
Encrypting the data is pointless, and actualy poses a disadvantage to people who need to compile the code because they will be thirty minutes to a few hours late getting into the game.
Takes me 5 min to compile CS, cel and PS. I don\'t really think people will be able to use that 5 min to a huge advantage ;) In fact, even a week wouldn\'t make any difference in the long term.
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I\'d be happy to seed a Torrent, I think it will be first-come first-server... what about hosting on a p2p client as-well, or has anyone thought of setting up bots on IRC?
But no, I think Torrents may be the way to go if you do not want to DL from the server... :D
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I\'d happily seed too, I do it all the time, doesn\'t bother me, since I\'m in Australia, while I\'m seeding and asleep you guys would be playing, so it would be fine. I could have it seeding all night no problems.
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most PS active Ps players won\'t mind to help seeding the files in my eyes. It\'s another great way to help the community :)
And all that discussion about security etc....whose willing to go through all that trouble for just a few days? You won\'t be able to get an advantage anyhow.
real P2P is the way to life :D
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The stuff with the security is just weird. Why would you try to protect it so much? Will the art files ruin the game? I don\'t see the point in encrypting the archive if you need an account on a running server to connect. No advantages will be gained by running your own server because the quest data is not distributed with the client or server.
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LOL
I like the discussion about the Password protection.
I Agree with Jordan that not many ppl in RL do have a super computer.
But you don\'t really need a Super Computer. Make a cluster of some smaller ones wil also do. (besides that, I\'m working on a big university, and believe me: I think there is plenty calculation time for me to use it.......)
But anyway, I think the discussion should be: Do you want it that way.
I think distributing the version to ppl be4 the release, you can counter a couple of problems. Of course you get ppl who try to crack the password. Some ppl do everything to reach there goals. (ppl beg/offer dia\'s to join the pre-release......ask poor moogie ;-) ).
But another reason for not doing it, will be that you can get a server flood of ppl try to join the server simultaniously. (Cause everybody has already the downloaded file.....they wait 24/7 for the password......depack the file.....install CB.....and join).
(note: maybe I\'m wrong, and the server CAN handle it. Anyway.....this is not ment as a flame to the devs :-) I only expect a busy time during the first days in the CB release. After that the \"new\" is gone, and the normal thing goes on).
So.....maybe the fact that 56K users take longer to download may not be that bad. However...I like the P2P Idea. not only will the download wider availible, but the resume ability will be loved by those 56K-ers.
(ps.....I\'m not writing this down, cause I\'m so lucky with my T3 line. I\'m really sry for those others that do have a 56K modem. I\'m sure the devs thought about the join-flood that can happen. Only they know if it\'s a real thread).
Anyway...to my oppinion is the rar-password idea nice but not a good thing. The download has to be done anyway.......so then let some ppl wait one more day, be4 there download has completed. (after 2 years....you don\'t care anymore about the fact you played 1 day less :-D ).
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In my opinion it doesnt make sense if all players connect to the server at the same time. Also what is the problem if you wait a day to play CB after its out? You have waited like 2 years now - 1 day wont kill you (at least it wont kill me ;)).
P2P got a downside for people with transfer-limits (like me). It creates a lot of additional traffic due to negotiating the transfer with every single user.
Well maybe we could make a vote to see how many people would like to download CB the day it comes out (how many have the possibility to use BT or would prefer another way of download). That way you can at least have an idea of what load you will have on the download and on the gameserver (since after 2-5h those first-day-downloaders will be playing).
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Originally posted by Mr. GworthoX
you can get a server flood of ppl try to join the server simultaniously. (Cause everybody has already the downloaded file.....they wait 24/7 for the password......depack the file.....install CB.....and join).
If i remembered it correctly the server only creates 1,5Kb/s traffic for each client. So flooding the server wouldn\'t happen that fast.
Anyway...to my oppinion is the rar-password idea nice but not a good thing. The download has to be done anyway.......so then let some ppl wait one more day, be4 there download has completed. (after 2 years....you don\'t care anymore about the fact you played 1 day less :-D ).
The pain of not being able to finallly play CB after waiting 1 year is terrible...one day is very very long then 8o
Originally posted by Pegasus
P2P got a downside for people with transfer-limits (like me).
For those ppl a normale FTP/HTTP link should also be available on the website
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Why don\'t the devs put a link on download.com?
I get like 450 kbs from their server :)
And one of my friends gets like 600, we both use cable
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Once again, the Devs should just put it up on release day. None of this eraly-release crap is neccasary. The SIms 2 had/has nearly 3k people downloading just fine. Sure, there is like 200 seeders, but we have 23 seeders for like 500 downloaders. It really won\'t be that bad! Besides, most people just turn it on at night and leave it. I only D/L at aroung 26kbps, and thats really rather slow compared to most DSL/Cable users. We have already established (in other topics) that a lot of people playing PS are not on Broadband, but dialup.
Even if it takes a long time to upload, know that the Devs don\'t have to even upload it. They could make you wait another freaking year if they want. It\'s OK to want the game, but quit whining about having to wait a year and then another day will kill you.
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Originally posted by Mezasa
Even if it takes a long time to upload, know that the Devs don\'t have to even upload it. They could make you wait another freaking year if they want. It\'s OK to want the game, but quit whining about having to wait a year and then another day will kill you.
So what? Just because it could be this way means that it should be this way, and that we shouldn\'t even try to improve the situation? Geez, if everyone was thinking that way, we\'d still be on the trees!
If it can be accomplished with low or moderate effort, it\'s OK to at least consider it, isn\'t it? Nobody said it\'s necessary to take extreme measures to ensure everyone will get it at the same time.
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I\'ve decided I think it should just be released on the day. I for one would download it and then suffer the lag to seed it while playing just so others have a chance, or perhaps I will leave it to seed overnight, while I am asleep or even when I\'m at uni. I\'d be happy to contribute.
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My school will turn off my internet port if I use BitTorrent, so I hope there would be some sort of alternate means to aquire the files.
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Don\'t download it at school, you should be studying anyway.
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you don\'t understand, I live at school, I have no choice but to download at school. I\'m not even allowed to leave school except for at select hours, at which time I have to stay in a certain radius. I am not allowed to own my own property, and.... well let\'s just say that I have to download it at school.
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You can try to get hold of a decent BT client which has the ability to change ports (ie azureus.sf.net ;) ), and see if that helps you. In case of NAT\'ing, it probably won\'t.
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The devs have never stated that BT would be the only form of getting the file. The idea behind it was to release some pressure on the Fragnetics and Sourceforge servers.
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I never said it was just BT download, none of us did...
JaredAngus... school or prison? Fine line it seems...
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Planeshift will be available to download. If you have a slow connection, get a download manager.
CDs and BT and a big stretch and most likely won\'t happen.