PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Merdarion on November 08, 2004, 05:40:16 pm
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I for myself don\'t know what is the \"Better Way\" of role playing. On the one hand the Pen & Paper RPGs have big advantages (Like sitting together drinkin\' coffee), but on the other hand it\'s very hard for the DM to be completly fair (And to make the players think that he\'s fair| I just rember someone saying: \"Hey your\'re unfair, i loose each time\" and storming off, just because his try to climb a wall failed the third time). The MMORPGs lack of direct communication (you don\'t typ in so much, you would say) and the feeling of playin\' with \"real persons\", but there are no questions about fairness.
So what do you think is the \"Better Way\"?
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Personaly, I think it\'s up to the invidual.
I prefer IT games online, since you can assemble so many people around the world and buid a secondary \"real\" world.
I don\'t agree with the typing though. I would say that you type a lot of things here, since you have to role play a character, you can\'t just demand that everybody knows you, without introductions, NPCs, quests, groups and stuff like that a game would be quite boring. Text brings all those things to life and open for us to implement and for you to complain at ;)
That\'s just my 2 tria\'s
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You forgot the best advantage ever with paper RPG, it\'s the freedom.
If you want to crush open a door in a village, you can... whereas, online, if the devs didnt design the inside of the house, the door will be totally unbreakable..
You can also create your own spells, imagine the effects, design a sword, write things on it. On the net you can only use the ones the devs designed and so on... to me paper RPG will always be the best ones.
On the other hand, internet enables us to gather large number or people and create a \"real\" community, with many fascinating sides (such as guilds)... but this will never compensate the lack of freedom with the computers, in my opinion of course :D
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I\'d chose P&P anytime, however I like having loads of real people in the world at the same time, and not just the same small 4-man adventurer group. But I guess you have to take the good with the bad. Can\'t have it all.
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I never had the joy of playing pen and paper RPGs. :( I want to, but there\'s no one to do it with. So I\'d have to say computer games are better, in my sitation at least. :D
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The beauty of online games is that you can play even when you are scattered over the world, which you can\'t in PnP. However, I think the constant typing that needs to be done is annoying (at least to me), because it takes a lot longer than speaking and also is more work, which means that I\'ll be doing less of it. Anyway, obviously flexibility in todays computer games is very limited, which is a drawback, but OTOH they can provide much more pre-designed stuff than the PnP GM can, as well as meeting many more ppl (which can also have drawbacks as you can\'t get rid of annoying ppl. as easily as in PnP). Also, there are nice graphics, which PnP tends to lack. :) So I see them as serving different purposes, so that a combination of both is a good way IMO.
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Personally, I have never had the oportunity to really play D&D or any other PnP game :( (well, once when I was young but it never really took off). I hear a lot of cool stories from friends who used to play PnP all the time...
On the other hand, I have a lot of fond memories of MMORPGs.
Now, here are a couple of ideas:
Regarding having to type a lot - Teamspeak (google it) is a very nice, relatively low-bandwidth chat program - it allows voice-activated talk and required about 2kb/s up, 2-3kb/s download speeds and near telephone quality. Also, a friend just suggested \"Ventrillo\". Because PS itself has such low bandwidth usage, I think it would be quite possible to run a voice-chat program along side it, even on 56K.
As for having the ability to design your own weapons etc.. perhaps for a lot of Tria, you could upload an image to be made into a texture for a generic weapon model, and uploaded to everyones client (either with the psupdater program or when they view it in game). The only problem with this is it would put load on the artists to create these custom textures (depending on how much it costs of course). It would also raise issues such as some clients having un-available textures, I think you would have to have the ability for the server to send new textures in-game.
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I like both, they are quite different. I usually play some PnP with my friends on the weekends (Exalted, pretty fun system) and when I\'m alone I play mmo\'s. I like the fact that the other characters are controlled by players, gives a better roleplay ambient (unless they are annoying... and keep saying things like \"STFU! Giv money to me u *** u hav a lot of money I want free stuff, heal me, plz gimme money\") since it is easier to visualize what the GM/dev wanted to show. Sometimes it is very hard to understand what the hell the DM means... specially when he tries to draw it and you still can\'t understand. MMOs are massive, PnP is more private, I like both but I believe I like MMOs better. One fact that kinda ruins PnP is when the DM has to talk with a particular player and you stay there waiting with nothing to do. That doesn\'t happen in MMOs.
I was playing Guild Wars, for example, the fast-paced action combined with interesting quests were a lot of fun. I guess it pretty much varies from player to player. I have to agree that PnP gives almost unlimited freedom, which is probably one of the best things about it.
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They both are equal in my opinon
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I prefer paper to video in most cases, however now that I am ?all grown up? my friends and I do not have the ability to just go over to each others houses and play whenever we feel like it. I think that video RPGs fill the void left by that. Also they make it so that I can meet and RP with people from all over the word. The only things that V-RPGs would need to make me happy are voice chat (so I don?t have to type every damn thing) and some way of filtering out the folks that are obsessed with leveling and being the ?leetest? and ?pawning?. All the campaigns I played on in PnP I never once found a legendary item and I think that V-RPGs make it to easy to come by something amazing.
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I used to like P&P (actually I do like it) but my group has become a pack of puberteral scum. For example when I say \"A cold breeze runs trough the room. The tavern apruptly becomes quiet. A young sorceress ste-\" some player interrupts me and says \" I **** her!\" OK they are fourteen ,but they don\'t do any role playing they just talking about sex, while a guy (me the DM) tries to tell them a story. And after that they make jokes about me. But another Question. What do you think is the best campaign Setting (Greyhawk, The Forgotten Realms, etc.) I for myself really like DSA (Very famous in Germany, less famous in Austria, and outta there nobody knows it. DSA is the short form of \"Das Schwarze Auge\" which means as much as \"The Black Eye\".)
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I personally prefer PnP, but rarely get the chance to arrange a run. When I was younger, though...I played all the time. While on the subject of PnP, though, I just have to share...
\"Can you heal him, phyldenn?\"
\"Damnit, Jim, I\'m a magician, not a doctor!\"
Pen and paper RPGs have something that computer games lack, while the reverse can also be applied. I think it\'s just a matter of personal preference, although I see that most people on this thread agree with me.
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IMHO: Pen and Paper, hands down.
I like the freedom, to do whatever your GM/DM will allow. It adds such an amazing element to it. No restrictions from coding or anything, you be whoever/whatever, look like whatever you want. So much freedom (unless the GM is an anally retentive jerk).
The sole advantage of electronic... it\'s easier to get together an play, as no one has to leave home if they have a capable PC.
Ever play a PC game, where you and another elf sneak into a tavern in a place where elves are hated, one by pretending to be an old lady, and another by acting like a madman with a bell, stick and a scarf around his head.
My friend was the woman, I was the madman... My GM made me act like a fool until I left the town.
That\'s something impossible on a PC
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You could try to shout around madly (Won\'t recomend it :D) on Hydlaa Palza. But You\'re right. I myself had some funny hours (Trying to persuade a dwarf of not trinking alcohol, Using water arrows to take out a torch which enlighted an orc cave then shooting stolen orc arrows in the mass of orcs killing a lot (inclusive Leader) then watching the pack of orcs killing each other --> facit: One survived, realized that it was me who shot the arrows came up to me and died just a meter before me because a torch from above fell on his Head (I was badly wounded, playing an elf->getting cathced by orcs->getting tortured->playing a trick on warden).
I also enjoyed it to be DM \'till my group got mad!
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Pencil and Paper:
My hubby and I have been running/designing a Fantasy campaign for about 16 years. We have created our own system...the rules were created in such a way that makes it difficult for a DM to show any kind of bias towards a particular player. We have not been playing much in the last few months due to RL issues, but hope to resume soon.
MMORPG\'s, I believe, have gained in popularity because most people simply do not have the time to develop a campaign world, write/learn modules, etc.
Any DM on here could probably tell you how difficult it can be to come up with enough material for 1 or 2 games a week; Not an easy task, especially for a good DM.
I use MMORPG\'s to fill in the gaps when I don\'t have enough time or people to game traditionally.
It is possible to run private games on the internet. I do believe there is software that they have created that will roll dice, etc This is a good option for those that prefer a more traditional gaming experience but lack people to play with.
Incidentally, some MMORPG\'s are so bad, that I find it impossible to believe that the designers have ever played traditional games, designed them, or ran them. I have not played \"PlaneShift\" yet, so I have no idea; except the comments I\'m reading on this board sound really positive. I think it\'s awesome that they are creating a free gaming world on their own time.
I\'m referring to my experience with ACDM. I find it hard to believe the Devs for this game have any traditional gaming experience..it just keeps getting worse. So, I\'m shopping around right now, trying to find something better.
PnP rules.....but MMORPG\'s fill in the gaps nicely :)
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Originally posted by Cohdra
Pencil and Paper:
Any DM on here could probably tell you how difficult it can be to come up with enough material for 1 or 2 games a week; Not an easy task, especially for a good DM.
Yea, It\'s hard enough to keep your players busy in a complete and fully detailed world (like greyhawk, the forgotten realms or Aventuria), but it\'s nearly impossible to do that in a world you\'re developing (I began to make my own campaign setting but I got screwed up because: 1. My cartographic skills are bad 2. As I said above the player\'s ran beserk)
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Originally posted by Merdarion
Originally posted by Cohdra
Pencil and Paper:
Any DM on here could probably tell you how difficult it can be to come up with enough material for 1 or 2 games a week; Not an easy task, especially for a good DM.
Yea, It\'s hard enough to keep your players busy in a complete and fully detailed world (like greyhawk, the forgotten realms or Aventuria), but it\'s nearly impossible to do that in a world you\'re developing (I began to make my own campaign setting but I got screwed up because: 1. My cartographic skills are bad 2. As I said above the player\'s ran beserk)
Yep, it\'s really difficult when you have to do all the design by yourself; Mike and I create/design everything together, and we also co-DM sometimes; it\'s more difficult for the players to push around 2 DM\'s...hehe
I have to often run in games that I wrote, so everything for my character is determined by die roll...but I still have fun. We have a bonus point system where points are awarded for roleplaying...we are BIG into the roleplaying aspect, and character development.
We also only allowed players that were 18 or older to play; I know this isn\'t always possible, as many gamers are younger that this, but the older players (usually, but not always..ahem...) are more mature. It is getting more difficult to find players...people are just too busy to play.
Mike often runs solo games for me; which is cool :) Sometimes I run solo games for him as well
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Yeah, I had some good experiences while being DM for older players (It sounds weird, but 17-18ers listen more careful (and play more careful), than the 14ers (I have to shame that I\'m fourteen),
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Originally posted by Merdarion
Yeah, I had some good experiences while being DM for older players (It sounds weird, but 17-18ers listen more careful (and play more careful), than the 14ers (I have to shame that I\'m fourteen),
The worst player types are the \"rules Hounds\", and the \"The Chaotic Eveywheres\". We always contained the rules hounds....drive a DM nuts. Then the Chaotic everywheres. They always have to be involved in everything, whether they are on a different continent, while they are dead, etc......they drive the players nuts for sure. We always keep them real busy...like one encounter after another...hehe...they are much more pliable when they only have 1-4 hp\'s left hehe :)
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Well, coming from PnP and gm?ing/playing those for about 15 years now, I think they are superior in flexibilty, make it easier to enhance your own creativity and can have a very social effect (a bit of camp fire romantics/ telling stories for others).
Virtual rPG?s often tend to lack the \"R\" part, but have the advantage of uniting people from different cultural backgrounds and by this can also create a strong gaming experience (once in a while).
It seems to be like one of the pre-posters said: both have there strengths and weaknesses.
Meketh
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Most of the \"Virtual RPGs\" are just hacknslash (Diablo, Dungeon Siege, Sacred, Diablo, Diablo and did I mention \'Diablo\' ...), very few have just a little Role playing (Morrowind, NWN) but also are mainly HnS (I didn\'t like the Morrowind\'s Dialogue system).
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If we\'re talking about single player RPGs, there are some that aren\'t hack&slash. I think Fallout, Torment and Arcanum are good examples.
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I did never get the chance of playing these, but I think KOTOR has very much Roleplaying (Also much H&S, but more RP)
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Baldur\'s Gate, Baldur\'s Gate 2 and Neverwinter Nights, also add Planescape: Torment to that, are very RP based, sure they follow a set story, but you couldn\'t finish it without them. The fact is you can pick your path to obtain your goals.
As already stated, Fallout and Fallout 2 are brillliant examples.
Knights of the Old Republic is very, very RP based, there are many battles, but what RPG doesn\'t have enemies to defeat. Every action you make impacts the game. I am currently playing as a potential Sith Lord, after becoming a master of the Light.
Morrowind was RP gone wrong, it was not as good as it could have been.
Pools of Radiance, The Temple of Elemental Evil, these are very RPG.
There are many that simulate P&P RPGs quite well, but lack the freedom.
Dungeon Siege disappointed me and my $85.
Edit: I eagerly await KOTOR 2.
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I love Morrowind. It gives you a huge freedom. I just think that many people are lost when not guided around. Morrowind is a game that requires you to set your own goals.
I recently tried Baldur\'s Gate 2 and I just had to abort it around second chapter. It\'s just plain boring. It could have been good without that fighting. It\'s probably this AD&D rule system that messes it up. After some time it is all about having the right spell prepared against the right enemy. There isn\'t much of character interaction going on in all those dungeons.
One game that is really brilliant in that aspect is Gothic and Gothic 2, but that suffers from its action orientation, later on there it is mainly about hacking down anything that moves.
But the first chapter is a magnificient experience.
Exspecially the settlements you can explore, (about three each game) are very worthwile with all the NPCs following their own live, working, eating, sleeping or doing other stuff. That makes playing a thief character a very worthwile experience. The whole place gives a very alive and realistic feeling.
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Originally posted by Umgssda
I love Morrowind. It gives you a huge freedom. I just think that many people are lost when not guided around. Morrowind is a game that requires you to set your own goals.
I recently tried Baldur\'s Gate 2 and I just had to abort it around second chapter. It\'s just plain boring. It could have been good without that fighting. It\'s probably this AD&D rule system that messes it up. After some time it is all about having the right spell prepared against the right enemy. There isn\'t much of character interaction going on in all those dungeons.
One game that is really brilliant in that aspect is Gothic and Gothic 2, but that suffers from its action orientation, later on there it is mainly about hacking down anything that moves.
But the first chapter is a magnificient experience.
Exspecially the settlements you can explore, (about three each game) are very worthwile with all the NPCs following their own live, working, eating, sleeping or doing other stuff. That makes playing a thief character a very worthwile experience. The whole place gives a very alive and realistic feeling.
First I played trough the main Story, then I tried vampire way, then I hunted for treasures and then I tried some psychopatic murder. Mods made it much better but it had never much of RP, just because the static NPCs and the whole static World.
In Kotor I tried to make some kind of Outsider. On light side but with his own meaning of good & evil, ==Pretty much fun
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The static world really is a problem in Morrowind, it leaves a lot to the fantasy of the player to imagine.
That is why I mentioned Gothic, it is a big contrast. I can only suggest to try it. Regretfully the Gothic 2 demo is only available in german, but Gothic 1 should be quite a bargain by now and isn\'t much a difference from the gameplay point of view. You\'ll just need some more patience with its controls.
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Yeah, I realy forgot Gothic. I played both Gothic 1 and Gothic 2 with \"Nacht des Raben\" (I actually come from Austria) expansion. Very good! I really liked it, because it was not only much RP but the World was changing. When you started in Gothic 1, you came in the \"Minental\" (Don\'t know what it is in English), where the three Settlements had some strive. You ended up, in it, while some kind of civil war comes up, the orcs grow stronger, and the swamp-camp collapsed.
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I remember seeing them play Gothic 2 on X-Play on TechTV... it was in English. Why do you say it\'s only available in German?
02-28-04: US release of gothic II
Surely you can find a non German release?
Umgssda, did you completely avoid the cities? That is where the interaction takes place... not the dungeons. All the locations around the world. There are not many NPCs to strike up a conversation with in a dungeon. I think you missed the whole point of BG2.
As for that slight on the AD&D rule system? I have no idea what you are talking about. Since when does the rule system from AD&D stuff a game up?
I challenge you to find a computer RPG where you don\'t fight, and it is interesting.
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Your reading is inaccurate.
I did say Gotich 2 demo ist only available in german. The game is available in english, the addon again isn\'t.
As for BG2 I didn\'t said it was boring for fighting in general, but for that fighting. It all comes down to have the right spells prepared for the opponents and the fitting weapons ready. The immunities of the opponents result in the necessity to micromanage the fight, and since there are heaps of those fights this takes up a major part of the game, in my eyes about 70%.
The AD&D system contributes to this, and has some real problems: class system, spell remembering, experience points, skills, exspecially non fighting skills, hitpoint development. It may be OK for P&P since there you can make up your own rules where appropriate, but not in a computer game. It\'s outdated technology.
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Demo does not imply expansion.
I can understand some of what you didn\'t like about it. I never used micromanaging to complete the game. I chose my party, equipped them to match their style, and left them like that. I rarely used spells.
As for the outdated tech. BG2 is rather old, were you expecting state of the art?
As I\'ve stated before P&P will always be superior in most regards.
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BG was awesome, BGII was awesome, Throne of Bhaal was awesome.. they had a great RP experience and alot of good action, I don\'t know, but PnP is better than any computer game, the freedom is awesome, and since I\'m designing a system for my group to use we have the game made for our preferences
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Originally posted by Adeli
Demo does not imply expansion.
What are you talking about? I did mention Demo and I did mention Addon, I didn\'t mention any implication or other relation between those.
\'State of the Art\', well BG2 is rather new, the rulesystem was outdated by the time they made it. They probably only used it because of the marketing. It was Ok back at Pool of Radiance times, but that is more than 10 years older than BG2.
Right now I\'m playing Ultima 7, which is much more fun.
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I hope Oblivion will be better. When I first played morrowind I heard about Balmora being the second biggest settlement on Vvardenfell, then I got there and it was nearly as big as a shoe box :D . ES I: Arena was pretty good, thoug. Also very good is Might and Magic series especially the earlier parts as part III and part V (If anyone has a glue were to get part IV, please say it to me I searched for that game seven years, which is nearly half of my life)