PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: Enter_the_Xero on November 15, 2004, 11:30:11 pm
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I think that in future versions of the game you should be able to do research and discover better ways to do things as well as create new revolutionary things...
There should be... like... researchers and scientists finding stuff and inventing stuff... not just like inventing a new better axe but going beyond that... just like us in the past 250 years... We have discovered electricity, guns, cars, HDTVs, and stuff so should Planeshift, someone should invent new stuff... and I am not saying that in a month some one should invent an AK-47, NO!!!!, the process should be very slow (emphasis on slow)...
Also Planeshift has Magic so how about mixing magic with these new inventions! Just imagine! (EXAMPLE: A house that does not allow one to entaer unless invited by the owner(s), or a body of a metal golem with a humans brain to controll it) Magical inventions (inventions that use magic not complex circuitry)!
So there should be researchers and scientist and engineers as well as Mad Scientists! Yeah...
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I really have wanted to emphasize this, just because Yliakum is a mid-evil setting that doesn\'t mean everyone hast to be in the dark ages. as I look @ the history of Yliakum & compare it with the medieval times of earth, I see there would be no reason for Yliakum to not develop technology differently then earth in the way of they could be more advanced then earth & yet still have the medieval theme. in medieval times there was allot of war, but in Yliakum there isn\'t exactly going to be major wars (or haven\'t been with the exception of guildwars.) also, one major reason why technology was not advanced very quickly in the dark ages is because of the catholic church mainly. many of the scientists of the time were accused of practicing witchcraft & or teaching against the Bible. in Yliakum I do not see any ware about heretics, there is magic so what\'s holding back \"Magical Science\" or \"Magical Technology\"?
I strongly doubt that with this sort of a situation that Yliakum would even be recognizable as being \"medieval\", but it\'s really up to Talad...
(I sort of wish he was more involved in the message boards)
Yliakum Scientists have already concluded that the nearer than twelve steps from the Crystal, the radiation dissociates matter, sometimes even generating random chain reactions that could be very dangerous, why couldn\'t they have discovered you can power a combustion/steam engine & make some sort of (medieval-looking) steam engine train that is powered by magic?
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I suggested a similar idea on the guns thread.
From guns thread
Well guns will be hard to obtain, perhaps if Planeshift has some sort of technology tree that evolves with the game. If someone uses their alchamy bench a lot then thery might discover something new. They might then tell the Ochtarch (sp) for recognition. That way, new spells and weapons like guns can eventualy be added. Also if the Planeshift team want to add some new stuff why not have somone discover it???
It\'s just an Idea.
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As I always state when this topic is brought up, I, too, think that without christianity we\'d live in a more advanced world (scientifically at least). So Yliakum can feature some scientific advances that don\'t impact the medieval feel, maybe that even emphasize it. Like mathematics, chemistry, architecture, and of course magical science. Maybe if we just leave out advanced manufacturing techniques we\'d end up in a rich world with quite interesting insights but which still hasn\'t had a chance to use this knowledge.
However, even manufacturing needs to be more advanced due to this:
From the settings page
Galeran led the Xacha to Yliakum and there, they settled on the first level and began immediately to use their ancient knowledge to built an iron temple consecrated to Laanx.
The temple of Laanx is the metal building, which means that the Xacha indeed possess advanced manufacturing, architecture and construction skills, which are bound to be used in daily life as well. Therefore there must be some advanced-tech things in Yliakum, most will probably be found in the agricultural sector, as space is very limited and therefore needs to be used as effectively as possible. Others may be found in the weapons sector, but not as prominently since the majority of Yliakum is not adventuring (strictly, the player population would be at most 5% of the total population).
I think there will be advance philosophical and even economical concepts. Maybe Yliakum is on the verge of discovering steam power and gun powder (thereby staying consistent with the setting (advanced sciences while simoultaneously not altering the feel (no application of it)).
Edit: one thing is also important:
Tech can, just as anything else, take very different paths, depending on the slightest of variations. Just remember electricity.
Edison advocated DC, whereas Tesla advocated AC. If Edison had won, we\'d all have DC power today, which would have changed many things: each major settling would need an own power plant, as DC doesn\'t travel well. Also, light dimming wouldn\'t have been possible effectively until some years ago, and power conversion would be harder (because DC cannot be transformed).
However, Tesla later on advocated high-frequency AC, which can be distributed and converted even more easily than low-frequency AC. This was, however not adopted, because the power companies had invested heavily in the low-frequency AC systems. Maybe our tech would significantly differ if HF-AC would have been adopted?
So this means that Yliakum nay not have discovered or utilised things that were used by us, and vice-versa.
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an interesting thread
A good example for diferent paths in advanced tech is the lathe (yes I\'m well aware that the wood lathe has been in existance since before first century BC). The metal lathe was only invented during the industrial revolution with the advent of electricity however it could have very easyly been invented after the invention of the windmill wich would have been more than capable of driveing it especialy at the early speeds lathes were ran at.
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Why do people keep wanting to modernize good ol\' fantasy settings. Go play a FPS...
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I\'m with icefalcon on this topic..
Why should we bother with gunpowder (and other modern things) when there are magic? Okey that may not be the best reason but atleast It is what i think.
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Originally posted by Icefalcon
Why do people keep wanting to modernize good ol\' fantasy settings. Go play a FPS...
This was totally uncalled for. What does \"modernising\" fantasy settings have to do with playing FPSes? Nothing.
As for the \"why\": because the setting says so. You got me right: it`s in the setting. A metal temple wasn\'t around in medieval times. Also, the way it is built, it would fit any future setting just fine. So there, it\'s already far from a \"traditional\" fantasy setting, without actually feeling different. But so are the suggestions I advocated. Also, there are fantasy settings that incorporate the advent of steam power. The key is that it\'s not used universally yet in these settings. Also, the fact that the Xacha were able to build this temple means that they need to possess very non-medieval manufacturing processes to actually make the giant steel plates.
All I\'m doing is to consequently apply what has been implied by the setting already. Still, I try to keep the feeling fantasy-traditional, since it is nice. I don\'t want PS to become like Shadowflare, but it needs to be consistent. The Xacha will have used their knowledge, not just to build the temple of Laanx, but to improve their daily lives (which it was created for!).
Edit: As for the magic: because
- not everyone possesses magic
- for some things magic is just a waste
- magic and science work together very well, as I have stated on some other thread. Thusly, you can have the same effect using a combination of magic and science for a combined effort that is significantly lower than achieving said effect by only magic or only science.
So there are economical reasons to combine both, and economy is what dictates what\'s going to be used.
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Ok, sorry about the FPS...
But still, steam engines were a great technological achievement, one of the inventions that started the modern era. When we are starting to incorperate these kind of things that aren\'t totally modern, and could still be used in a medeval setting, but certainly isn\'t in line with the traditional fantasy setting, its just the first step toward a modern game. See, the fantasy setting IMO should be set in a different world, in our worlds ancient time. Even earlier than mideval.
Now, you will say, then we can\'t have castles or big buildings and we all have to live in huts. No, we can have big buildings with unique architecture that resembles something totally foreign from our world. Parallel, but not similar. Adding trains and guns and such takes us away from this other world and puts us back into our own world.
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I\'m not that orthodox in my \'fantasy\' imagination it is just that I do not want this to become starwars, whit or whitout the x-wing.
If there were machines in anyway then I would classify this game as a sci-fi fantasy game aka star wars, and that is not what i hope for.
And even if it is not original the \'old fashion\' fantasy setting is not that exploited. I may not have played that many games that call themself \'fantasy game\' but almost everyone of those tries to be inovative from the \'old fashin fantasy\' that is non existing.
That is my two cents..
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Originally posted by Icefalcon
Now, you will say, then we can\'t have castles or big buildings and we all have to live in huts. No, we can have big buildings with unique architecture that resembles something totally foreign from our world. Parallel, but not similar. Adding trains and guns and such takes us away from this other world and puts us back into our own world.
I seem to have failed to express to which level I\'d see \"tech\" in PS. I was by no means talking about trains or guns, and also not about the steam engine as we know it. What I has in mind was that the power of steam would have just been invented, but isn\'t usable yet. So it might be used to open doors in the Laanx temple, but not to drive any rotating device. The same would apply for gunpowder: I can see cannons, but not actual guns. Maybe something that could be classified as pipebomb (actually a huge firecracker). Yliakum also needs advanced agricultural knowledge to be able to support it\'s population by the two farmable levels (yes, I know there also is fishing and sea-weed, but still Yliakum has a very high population).
So these things would be more a curiosity than daily occurances, but the knowledge should be there to be consitent with the Xachas \"ancient knowledge\" (i.e., to show what this knowledge actually is, and how the knowledgewould enable the creation of a temple made of steel).
I agree to the architecture thing, but the problem is that big buildings indeed require some form of advanced science, and be it mathematics. Just look at Egypt, the pyramids would not have been built without surpreme architects, and the romans had quite advanced tech as well, just look at their bathes, and the colosseum in Rome could be filled with water to have naval games!.
This means that you can have advanced science without removing the medieval feel, if you limit the application of the sciences. This limit usually is the price of it. Only due to todays mass-production is it possible to have scientific devices in every home, whereas in medieval times you\'d only find them in war or in the palaces of the rulers.
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Ok, I see what you\'re saying.
I agree about what you are saying about the Xacha knowledge. And I wasn\'t denying that ancient civilizations had no skill in architecture, in fact, I had the pyramids in mind when I posted that. I have no problem with so called \"advanced technology\" as long as it doesn\'t reduce the fantasy atmosphere and resemble our modern world. Even cannons are pushing it.
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theLostShirt, if I am understanding you correctly, you are saying any machinery turns medieval fantasy into Science fiction? That\'s silly.
Firstly, the term both you and IceFalcon are looking for is medieval, not fantasy. You are worried about the integrity of the medieval setting.
Did you know the Chinese created gunpowder in what people call medieval times? It\'s true. So it fits nicely with the fantasy medieval theme. Mind you this means crude rockets and blunderbuss/muskets, not fully automatic M16 rifles.
We have many many machines in this day and age, are we in a world of Science Fiction? I don\'t think so, I see that as far more advanced that current technology.
I think there should be technology and machinery, but crude and far from infallible. I love playing RPG\'s where some scientist or goblin inventer has a laboratory filled with machines far before their time. These will be very rough machines, and not work exactly as planned, but they will a sign of development. Do you want a stagnant, boring world to play in? I don\'t.
People should be able to craft machines that will explode or something if they malfunction or certain components are missing. It will add a whole new element to alchemy, and would inspire me to create an alchemist of my own.
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If there were machines in anyway then I would classify this game as a sci-fi fantasy game aka star wars, and that is not what i hope for.
the lever, the wheel, the bow, the aflafle (spear thrower), the wood lathe, the sewing machine, the catapult, the trebushae, all of these were machines invented during or before medieval times. The wood lathe for example has been aroun since before first century BC thats more than 2,000 years way older than the temporal setting of Planeshift.
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Originally posted by Adeli
Firstly, the term both you and IceFalcon are looking for is medieval, not fantasy. You are worried about the integrity of the medieval setting.
No, I am trying to make a distinction between Fantasy and Medeval. I know things such as gunpowder were present in the Medeval times, and I don\'t think they should be in a fantasy game.
I am not against those simple tools you listed Hatchnet, I am against inventions that mark the start of the Modern Age.
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I personally would not want to see machines made for the users convenience because that is basically the society we are living in now. Having said that I also don\'t want to see a planeshift industrialization but I do however want to see scientific and technological enhancements.
Proof of these enhancements in Planeshift can be seen in the renderings of the sewers, if this were a medievil game sewers wouldn\'t exist. Although sewers were first invented by the Romans this technology was forgotten during the dark ages and was reused during the renaisance period.
Now I\'ll actually say what I meant to say, I think that technology that is implemented in Planeshift should meet the needs and capabilities of the people who reside there. Take for example television (a bit extreme I know), Yilakum\'s populace couldn\'t make televisions nor would they want them and so they shouldn\'t exist in Planeshift. Now for instance say the light levels in some areas of Yilakum are too low or too high maybe somebody could create a magically enhanced lens which alters the light levels in those areas, this technology isn\'t too advanced nor is it beyond the capabilities or desires of the community.
So just to sum this up, any technology implemented in Planeshift would have to be within the capabilites of the people and actually fufill a genuine purpose for those people. Of course some technology would have to be restricted because it could potentially allow the production of objects that would stray too far from the setting of Planeshift.
-Zorium
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Originally posted by Zorium
Now for instance say the light levels in some areas of Yilakum are too low or too high maybe somebody could create a magically enhanced lens which alters the light levels in those areas, this technology isn\'t too advanced nor is it beyond the capabilities or desires of the community.
I like this idea. I envisage the following:
At the walls of the stalactite, as high abouve the 1st level as possible, you have these lenses. Maybe they can even be of ordinary glass, as the Xacha might know how to make them. The condensed light then will, close to the focus, go through another lens that makes it parallel. Now you have highly intense light at a small diameter (around 1m accross at most, down from maybe several 10s of metres (maybe collected by several lenses or an array of mirrors that form a big hollow (bundling) mirror). Depending on the environment, this light can be directed through a set of appropriately placed and angled mirrors, through small (1.5m accross) conduits to the desired level, where it will then either be split by mirrors, to eventually reach the locations it is destined to, or be directed to a central location in one chunk, where there will be another set of diffusing lenses and mirrors which will make the light illuminate the area.
The technology of manufacturing lenses and mirrors of the required size and quality is quite an achievement, but if magic is being used, it can actually be done. The size of the steel plates for the temple of Laanx is of the same tech level, so it wouldn\'t be far off and IMO also wouldn\'t alter the feel.
Of course you could also illuminate by magic, but magic has to be sustained, whereas this method will not. Also, imagine the fun of getting toasted by a high-intensity beam of light, knowing that there will be a place going dark for as long as you take to turn into ashes! :)
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I think a simpler method would be magically altered or enhanced crystals that absorb light during the day, then when there is no more light to absorb, they release it.
Creating efficient solar powered lighting, using no modern technology whatsoever.
IceFalcon, I don\'t think a basic gun is the start of the modern age.
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I think a simpler method would be magically altered or enhanced crystals that absorb light during the day, then when there is no more light to absorb, they release it.
Creating efficient solar powered lighting, using no modern technology whatsoever.
Yeah it would be simplier but you remove interesting situations involving combat, if you can\'t win force them into the light. Hmmm, brings a whole new meaning to \"go into the light\" :P.
-Zorium
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Also, it would not enhance ambient light levels, only light places at night. My objective was to bring more light down to the lower levels during daylight hours so that they can be used for farming as well, which would significantly ease the space problems on the two upper levels.
And yes, \"if you see a black tunnel, don\'t go into the light!\", because it will be one of these conduits. :)
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Perhaps someone should start a new technology wishlist, provided it does not get spammed with noobs asking for AK-47s.
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Originally posted by Icefalcon
I am not against those simple tools you listed Hatchnet, I am against inventions that mark the start of the Modern Age.
A trebushae simple are you out of your mind man?
However you are right it was the steam engine that brought about the start of the industrial age (we however have moved onto the space age). However many items that steam power allowed to be ran such as the cotton gin and the metal lathe could feasably be run by meathods available in Yliakum without changeing the setting and in truth it must be so for a city sized stalagmite to support such a large population. In fact the easyest way to run such early machinery is not the steam power we used but water power wich was in use during our middle ages and would natrualy be highly avalible in Yliakum. But I am not saying that such machines are prevelant enough to create an industrial revalution here in Yliakum just prevalint enough to support its population.