PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: Zorium on November 16, 2004, 05:30:06 am
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In most games weapons have stats like strength, speed, accuracy etc...
to me these stats seem completely pointless. Those of you who have played a sport which requires a bat/stick/club or something similiar will know that everyone has differnet tastes on the equipment they use although some of this equipment is generically better than others.
What I propose is that weapons have two stats and the effectiveness of the weapon is derived from the players stats combined with the weapon stats. The two stats are as follows:
Mass: Self explanitary really, how much mass the weapon has.
Centre of gravity: Again self explanitary.
Working out the weapons effectiveness from these two stats makes weapons more individual so instead of having a generic \"uber weapon o\' doom?\" everybody would have their own \"best\" weapon. Also this could stop dwarves wielding two metre long claymores which just looks stupid.
-Zorium
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sorry but you need more than two stats for each individual weapon the ones you left out would include:
how sharp the weapon is
how durable the weapon is
how much edge it has (if any)
there are others but I think thats enough to make my point
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sorry but you need more than two stats for each individual weapon the ones you left out would include:
how sharp the weapon is
how durable the weapon is
how much edge it has (if any)
there are others but I think thats enough to make my point
Hmmm, you have a point but these either come into play after the weapon was produced or do not effect how the weapon functions (until it breaks that is :P).
-Zorium
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Neither of the proposed weapons sound very \'flexible\', maybe there will be a new skill known as blade archery, which uses swords as bows.
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Well I wasn\'t thinking in terms of ranged weapons, of course there are problems that need to be adressed in regards to that area of weaponry but I havn\'t had time to think about them yet (wait a few days and I might have a post for you).
-Zorium
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I personally think that weapons should have any stats at all. You see how good a sword is by taking it outside and using it. If your character can handle the weapon well, then the sword has a clever center of gravity and weight that your character can handle. Damage is obvious, besides, if you get stabbed in the heart with ANY sword, you are going to die.
etc etc, im not going to go any further with this.
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This comes down to the \"realism vs gameplay\" argument to me. And I always stick with the \"gameplay\" side myself.
If there\'s going to be hundreds of different weapons in a game, it is pointless to say \"stab it with any sword and it\'ll die\". Where\'s the fun in that? What could possibly drive you to go adventuring for a different sword if your current rusty piece of spiked metal can already take anything down?
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Originally posted by Moogie
This comes down to the \"realism vs gameplay\" argument to me. And I always stick with the \"gameplay\" side myself.
If there\'s going to be hundreds of different weapons in a game, it is pointless to say \"stab it with any sword and it\'ll die\". Where\'s the fun in that? What could possibly drive you to go adventuring for a different sword if your current rusty piece of spiked metal can already take anything down?
I can\'t agree more.
We are playing a fantasy-Roleplaying-game. Maybe that should be implemented in a sports game. But RPGs aren\'t there for being Realistic. If the gameplay lacks of fun, the whole realism is for nothing.
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Originally posted by Moogie
This comes down to the \"realism vs gameplay\" argument to me. And I always stick with the \"gameplay\" side myself.
If there\'s going to be hundreds of different weapons in a game, it is pointless to say \"stab it with any sword and it\'ll die\". Where\'s the fun in that? What could possibly drive you to go adventuring for a different sword if your current rusty piece of spiked metal can already take anything down?
Sure, your rusty piece of metal can kill a HUMAN easily, but its going to be almost useless against a 10 foot tall monster with scales for skin. Thats when you need the sharper swords/axes/arrows. Obviously, if your weapon just came off the sharpening stone, it will do more damage.
I, for one, am for realism and gameplay. Once again, I am warning against the numbers used for stats. They ruin role play and realism once you spot numbers popping over enemies heads or have people trading like this; \"Selling sword! DMG 130-160. PM me for offer.\" This is not what I want to hear from town squares. \"Swords for sale! Fine dwarven swords for sale made from the finest steels in the land!\"-sounds much better.
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Hm, *think hard*. Maybe there should be a compromise. *think even hader* Some more realistic figures, but not such killing at once experiences (Don\'t like the idea of playing hours after hours growing to a good leveled char -> then a n00b tips at my shoulder and rams his rusty dagger in my heart and killing me, then saying something like \"Har-Har I\'m the best\", just to be killed by an n00bisher n00b.
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Rusty swords arnt always that bad to fight with. IF you impale somone with it they might get a desiese :D
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Perhaps the actual stats damage sharpness speed an such can be hid so people dont use that as a basis for which weapon is best.
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None range weapon.
Character stats: (for weapon handling/skill)
Weapon/Type Skill - decide max damage of the type of weapon.
Mass/Size - How big you are. Dwarf swinging the lance of length (4 times your length)
Strength - Decide how well you will swing the ?bersword of penetration (2 ton)
Weapon Req:
Weight - Decide optimal strength
Mass / size / Type - How big the weapon are. Axe, Morning star, Sword and all the other stuff.. (Possibly split)
Quality - I would vote for just three different. Maybe rusty/old (not that common), Fine Craft (Most Common) and Master Craft (least common)
Enchantment - whatever.
Something like that is what a prefer. But the most important thing for me is that it should be easy for me to figure out what kind of weapon my character would wield the best. e.g. When I view my character stats It will list what type of weapon that would suite me best, and when (I have not read anything on level up or the like) you level up It should be easy to know what stats to focus on.
The terms may not be the best, please don\'t focus on spelling and grammar just try to understand me.
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Well, another way to sort out the Speed, Accuracy and stats like that would be to simply input scroller bars, and let people decide how to use their weapon. So, if you choose speed over accuracy, you\'d hit faster, but not as much, and you wouldn\'t deal as much damage either, but if you want to give a very, very hard blow and be sure you hit a critical spot, you can do that all the time, but just not very fast. That would leave fighting completely up to players, and create some unique fighting styles, and arguements about what\'s the better way to use this or that weapon. Of course, weapons should have the base stats that everything gets modified from, like swords have a base speed, and a base accuracy which then gets affected by your swordfighting skills, etc.
This should leave some room for thoughts, and shouldn\'t be that difficult to do. :)
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Gro: That\'s a brilliant idea... why has nobody thought of that before??
The devs have been going with a \"attack with aggressiveness from 1-5\", but this idea of customising your attack style is far superior. And I can\'t think of any disadvantages or exploits from it either!
Edit: I\'m great, I know. :P - Grono
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We can even complicate it further!
The \"Attack-Defense\" axis - How cautious are you? How much of your strength do you commit to your attacking strokes? Are you likely to be ready to parry?
The \"Speed vs. Accuracy\" axis - As discussed previously, how long do you wait for opportunity?
A defensive player set to a high speed would lightly jab at or threaten his opponent, always ready to block an attack. An accurate but aggressive attacler would be willing to open herself up to a counterattack in order to land a critical blow.
I think there are other dimensions of combat as well, such as whether you are trying to disarm your opponent, or target a specific body part. The trick will be to design a comfortable, intuitive interface that will not detract from the fun of flexible combat.
With respect to weapon statistics, I am in favour of weapons having hidden hard numerical statistics, but a player needs a way of giving weapons a basic assessment. I hope that this assesment can be \"non-numerical\" except for quantities that could be measured by the player (like weight), but for now I think we\'ll be stuck with bare statistics for damage, speed etc.
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That is ... well... as Moogie put so well, simply brilliant! :D
As for complicating it further, who wants to attack with one move ALL the time(a-la Diablo). Lets make several moves, EACH with its own sliders. Anyone remember that old Playstation game \'Crono Cross\'?
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Why not make like this
All items have a grade, a level and a little discription giving an idea of how good is the sword. All stats will be hiden, except for extra ones like +10 damage
so a a diamond dagger will have stats like this:
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Diamond Dagger +3 (<-- lvl of the item)
Grade 25
Made of the strongest dwarven metals with a diamond blade, it is very light, resistant and has great speed.
+5 Attack Speed
+8 Dmg against rock creatures
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and it would also be cool to have somekind of visible effect on items of high level, or unique/special items, like a dragonblade would glow red or a holy armor (evil attack resistance?) would glow golden :P
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One word Grono WOW, pure genius although I\'m going to attempt to add to that idea.
1) Maybe there could be a graph next the sliders that dynamically changed to give a graphical representation of the power, accuracy and speed of the strike.
2) Preset hotkeys so you can change your style in the middle of combat or maybe have three or four that you cycle through ala JKII.
-Zorium
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I too don\'t like to see stats for weapons, the wielder should matter more than the weapon. A weapons stats should be invisible, and regulated by skill in that weapon, and the attributes of the wielder.
I really like Gronomist\'s idea. Have you seen something similar to this? It\'s like nothing I\'ve ever seen.
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Originally posted by Japeth ArTur
sorry but you need more than two stats for each individual weapon the ones you left out would include:
how sharp the weapon is
how durable the weapon is
how much edge it has (if any)
there are others but I think thats enough to make my point
LOL \"how much edge it has\", \"how sharp the weapon is\" as in if it has a sharp edge its going to be sharp.
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Originally posted by Cirque
LOL \"how much edge it has\", \"how sharp the weapon is\" as in if it has a sharp edge its going to be sharp.
the amount of edge a weapon has and how sharp that edge is are two , yes two different attributes. The edge is determined by the overal length of edge on a single cutting side therefore a scimitar will have more edge than a longsword or similar sized strait edge weapon.
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LOL nice assumption.
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Originally posted by Cirque
LOL nice assumption.
It is not an assumption Cirque it is how the edge of a weapon is mesured.
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Maybe some other slider wouldn\'t be too bad, high or low. Do you hold your weapon higher so you can hit and parry enemy\'s that are as tall , or taller than you. Or do you hold your weapon lower so you can figth against samller ones.
And I don\'t think hotkeys would be good. -->Setting all on Accurancy and Offense on one key and all defensive and fast on the other you could do so: parrying, then fast switch to Agressive mode make one attack, and then switch back to parry again ---> Would bwe UBER.
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*on topic*
I hope that the heavier the weapon you are weilding, the slower you hit and less accurate you are. Do you know what i just wondered? What is the view going to be like when using a bow. Do you just click the person and you shoot and there is a Certain % chance to hit, or do you actually have to aim? ?(
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This has been discussed, it was a conversation about FPS or RPG style fighting. I think it was decided it was RPG, so choose target, aiming is calc. by stats.
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Yes the weight of the weapon should affect how fast you wield your weapon as well as it\'s damage
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rather than a series or sliders, which would get very cumbersome...i would suggest either a single slider as grono originally said, or stances.
I have been fighting with medieval weapons for a good while now, and there are many different stances, each with it\'s own strengths and weaknesses.
For example, two of the most common sword and shield stances are behind the head, and the Iron Chicken.
Behind the head offers good attacking options to land solid, well aimed shots on your opponent, especially the head, shoulders and knees.
Iron Chicken involves holding your sword on a slightly downward angle above your shield. It is tricky to use many of the basic attacks from this stance, but you have excellent defensive options.
There are probably dozens of stances for each basic weapon group, eg, sword(or axe or whatever) and shield, two swords, two handed sword, polearm, and longpike.
Wow, that was a long one...
Jessyn
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I think stances are far more interesting than sliders. They would add more variety to combat and make choosing the weapon more important, as with various weapon types different stances are used. Some can have special properties or abilities not available in other way.
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Stances seem to be a very good idea but would be even better alongside sliders to give even greater customization without sacrificing simplicity.
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ok first off, don\'t thrash the newb, Just found this game today but seeing the delima you guys are having I felt I should give some kind of input.
As far as the weapons stats not mattering, sorry but the weapons stats really should matter.... a lot... because if they didn\'t matter very much, what\'s the point in finding/questing/making unique or rare weapons? it\'d be rather pointless because they\'d all have the same stats. That said here\'s what I think should show in a weapons description
Damage: #
Weapon Speed: #
Weight: #
Races that can use: (races, or all)
Stat Changes: i.e. str + #
Ability/Resistance/enchantments: i.e. sneak + #, disease resistanc + #, haste, regen etc.
going from there on figuring out the damage per second or whatever timeframe you want is simple, seconds are more practical mind you, take your weapon skill for that particular weapon and turn it into a percent, multiply that percent by your strength, add that number to the weapon damage, add some randomness bonuses to the attack to vary how hard you hit, and your character will hit that hard in whatever speed your weapon has. so it\'d look something like this
Blade of Hurtyness
14 dmg
24 dly (which would translate into 2.4 secs)
Str +10, Agi +15, HP +50
SvFire +5, SvDisease +5, SvCold +5, SvMagic +5, SvPoison +5
wt 2.5
Effect: (in game spell that will occasionally cast on rare occasions)
Races: ALL
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Not to be mean but the basic idea behind this thread is to hide the basic weapon stats so that people do not use them as a basis for which weapon is best. Each weapon would still have its individual stats but they would not be visable
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Then again those would probably be very useful for the client to use to calculate any attack.
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Personally, I love the idea of weapon stats being hidden or at least extremely simple - the depth should come from the character and how it uses them.
Characters might be able to evaluate the quality of a weapon though, as they have more information than players - it\'s hard to show in-game the tiny dints and scratches which betray the soft, cheap metal of a blade, or the slightly off balance when this warhammer is swung, but a character might respond with generalised thoughts on the quality of a piece when asked. Obviously armourers, weaponsmiths and (to an extent) fighters will have an advantage over the average layman. Anyone can give feedback like \"This sword appears to be of fine quality, and its balance suits you well\" though
Also, the slider thing - a nice way to present this might be a triangle (like the colour selectors used in certain creative programs). Stick \'attack strength\' one one vertex, \'attack speed\' on another and \'accuracy\' on the third, and let the player drag a marker around to indicate their preferred tactics. A small list of configurable presets with hotkeys might be good for that \"oh dear...\" situation when you meet something scary.
This covers most tactics, especially if a defensive/offensive tactics toggle is available as well, and is quite intuitive. Thoughts?
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I know the thread is about trying to hide or simplify the weapon stats and all but I was just trying to play devils advocate... cause I personally like having weapons wit several visibble factors... I mean to say your going to hide the stats is like saying, oh yes, you can hit things with this sword but you have no real way of comparing it to anything else... maybe Im just not getting it or something but that\'s the way you guys are making it seem... and thatt triangle idea is pretty cool sounding btw
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One way of compareing would be a basic knowledge of weapons while another would be useing different weapons to see which suits you best. Many people think that just because a weapon has better stats it is the weapon for them yet they find they don\'t like the way the weapon works. Hideing the stats would force people to decide for themselves which weapon is better for them creating greter rp as well as a better game overall.
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It\'s a fine line between too many souless numbers, and a confusing lack of information IMO :)
As your character rises in power and acclaim you want to be able to give them commensurate increases in the quality of their equipment. On the other hand, I think it\'s silly to base the choice of weapons on \"This one does 2 - 5 damage, but that one does 3 - 8\". There are loads of other factors, especially if you\'re roleplaying a character and some of those factors aren\'t even modelled in the system. For example, I think Claymores look cool. They just /do/. So my character might use one even though the Hello Kitty Katar of Neon Pinkness technically does better damage... and that seems right.
So maybe there should be some general, fuzzy description for individual weapons (high quality, low quality) and a bit of description about attack speed and damage of the weapon type (high damage, medium speed etc). Avoids compelling newbies into choosing a weapon they normally wouldn\'t because it has a number in its descript that\'s one point higher.
Will there be any sort of \'familiarity\' stat with weapons? I think if you use a given weapon (any weapon, regardless of quality) for long enough, you should be better with it as you learn exactly where its balance is, where the edge is keenest, how best to use the momentum etc. This is a stat unique to that single weapon and seperate from skill stats, which apply to all weapons of a type. I just love the idea of a high-level character wailing on things with the *exact same sword* they bought as a pathetic newbie, without being at a stupendous disadvantage.
Would also make the exact stats of a weapon less important, regardless of how visible they are, as you know you can make up for a slight deficit with familiarity.
Edit: Oh yeah, and would mean people would tend to want their existing weapons \'upgraded\' with minor enchantments/pommel adjustments to tweak balance/better honed edges instead of just trading it in for a better one. People get attached to things, and weapons are as good a thing as any to cling to :)
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This is easily resolved.
You character will not have access to the stats like you could.
This game is heavily roleplayed.
If you look at a sword, do you see numbers telling you how much damage it deals? No, so why would your character?
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This is easily resolved.
You character will not have access to the stats like you could.
This game is heavily roleplayed.
If you look at a sword, do you see numbers telling you how much damage it deals? No, so why would your character?
To some degree your right, but then how do you appraise the quality of the weapon?
-Zorium
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What I would like to see is each attack being a 2-4 hit combo, 2 attacks for power and 4 for speed. Then you could go to a combat trainer and learn certain comboes which are made up of 3 different attacks high, mid, and low. These comboes would then be assigned to hotkeys and you should be able to chain up attacks for the next combat turn like in KotOR. If you have enough money you could hire the services of a private trainer to make your own comboes and do things like trade out moves for special abilities and each special abaility would take up a certain amount of move slots.
And ofcourse based on stats you would be able to block and dodge and the such.
Turn based comboes look so much better than 2 people just sitting there looping the same move over and over.
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@ Syzerian
Wouldn\'t the number of combos you could squeeze into a round be really heavily dependant on the intertia of the weapon? I like the idea of combos though, if done well they make combat look really nicely choreographed and funky. Prince of Persia made me feel really good about my frantic and scared button mashing, I\'d love to see a less platformy game do that...
@ Adeli
This is easily resolved.
You character will not have access to the stats like you could.
This game is heavily roleplayed.
If you look at a sword, do you see numbers telling you how much damage it deals? No, so why would your character?
I agree. I don\'t want numbers. The problem is that in order for me to roleplay, I often need access to information my character has, but which I do not. I point out I\'m not very good at roleplaying, but I do try :D . For most adventuring characters, the quality of a weapon or a piece of armour (as I guess this applies just as strongly to armour as weapons) is likely to be an important deciding factor in whether they trade in their old one for new. Not all claymores are created equal, but neither do they come with handy numbers attached :)
Not having a GM handy to describe your character\'s impression of the weapon in a nice manner, the game needs to supply at least some of that information. Numbers are the traditional method. Brilliantly detailed modelling and texturing of individual swords that I can peer at for faults might be another, but a lot harder to do well.
Numbers just don\'t cut it in all, they foul up the suspension of disbelief something chronic for me at least. I know there\'s another thread on adopting a numberless system throughout PS here (http://www.planeshift3d.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=7831&boardid=11&sid=cc2ab9c1444ec5b798c8eaf4f6212c13) , but if that isn\'t possible I\'d still love to see weapon stats hidden - whilst still giving you enough information to make decisions for your character.
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No numbers!
Just do it like in real life, test it!
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As Xandria suggested previously in that \'No more numbers\' thread, it would be great if you could test it in a shop or had some kind of trial period with the weapon first. Let your character swing the weapon a few times, take a few pot shots at a practise dummy. But even then you\'d have to give some kind of indicator or how hard you\'re hitting - perhaps the dummy could judder more as you hit it harder. The speed of your swing and your accuracy with the weapon would be easily visible. Buying the weapon and then taking it out on a \'live\' test run, though...
I mean, would you want to shell out hard earned tria for a weapon, only to learn through the rather dangerous business of testing it on suitably aggressive critters that it\'s actually a bit useless? :) Especially if you\'re playing a weaponsmith or experienced fighter who really should have known better the moment they picked it up in a shop.
Maybe a better guide would be the price of the weapon, but who\'s going to rank weapons by price, and with what criteria? Does damage affect price more or less than speed, or durability, or the opulance of the filigree on the pommel?
What\'s to stop both NPCs and players selling weapons at inflated or ridiculously low prices, through ignorance or averice or generosity? To fix prices artificially makes no sense and removes a lot of richness from the game, and balancing the weapon prices so that certain types of characters paid less for more combat-effective weapons could be a nightmare.
I like the idea of having to test weapons, but I can\'t see it working unless there\'s some kind of sandbox in which to play with them, as well as the option to return the weapon for a full refund. That doesn\'t make much sense in the game setting though. :(
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Someone mentioned \"familiarity\", that sounds pretty good. Maybe if you would use for long enough a certain type of weapon you could gradually see it\'s \"numbers\", or some disguised stats and you could compare it to another weapon you have knowledge of.
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Shamed to say this but I used to play RuneScape and it also had something sort of similar to what your implying, though not as free-form. You could choose accurate, rapid or long distance with long ranged weapons, and strength, block-attack and something else I can\'t remember.
Grrr I just wrote that post after reading through the first page of this thread but not the others... annoying but I hope it still applies.
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I think that when you look at a sword and pick it up you can see its qualety, sharpness right away but you need some expirience and kloadge to see what material it is made of and it that material is of good qualety so in my opinion a low lvl character shuld only see stats as:
Fordged Qualety: low/medium/high/exelent/masterful...
sharpness: sharp/razor sharp/supreme sharpnes...
but as the character increases in lvl and experience so shuld his knoldge of metals and craftmenship so he shuld see more of the weapons stats like
material qualety: semmy good/good/very good/exelent...
since the char wuld know how diferent metals react to inpact he shuld be able to see how resistant the weapon I think that when you look at a sword and pick it up you can see its quality, sharpness right away but you need some experience and knowledge to see what material it is made of and it that material is of good quality so in my opinion a low lvl character should only see stats as:
Forged Quality: low/medium/high/exelent/masterful...
sharpness: sharp/razor sharp/supreme sharpness...
but as the character increases in lvl and experience so should his knowledge of metals and craftsmanship so he should see more of the weapons stats like
material quality: seamy good/good/very good/exelent...
since the char would know how different metals react to impact he should be able to see how resistant the weapon would be in battle so he should be able to see the endurance of the weapons
endurance: short last/medium/long last
the character would also in time learn as to what weight it handles the best
weight: light/medium heavy/heavy/to heavy
but these stats would change according to the chars strength and agility
also from the weight and knowledge of a certain type of weapon a char would know how fast he can be with that sword
speed: fast/ medium fast/ slow / very slow
I could think of other stuff
in my opinion that way a weapons effectiveness would be affected by the characters skills/stats/lvl and would make a quality sword lass affective in an low lvl char then with a hight lvl char... and with certain skills the weapon\'s quality and endurance could be improved...
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I apologise if this has already been said, but I have read through this thread and felt that I ought to give an idea about (good guess) Archery. Perhaps instead of just RPG or player aiming, a combination of the two? A low skill making the reticle waver so that the shot was more liable to go awry, and a high skill occasionally allowing for a rock steady aim. This would be similar to the sniping skill in Deus Ex, although perhaps the player could purchase potions or something similar, so that their hands didn\'t shake so much or they had a larger hit area. For instance:
Eagle eye charm: Larger reticle
Calming Potion (perhaps with a much better name :D) : Less \"waver\"
Whereas:
Coffee (too much, that is): More waver
Beer: More waver
Stunning: smaller reticle
Blinding / other vision impairment spell: smaller reticle
Just an idea.
*Hides behind a flimsy flame shield.*
Edit: Woohoo! First Post!
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Wouldnt a bigger recticle be a disadvantage rather than an advantage as a bigger recticle means you have more \'bullet spread\'. This is a mmorpg the player shouldnt have to aim as lag and connection speed will make it impossible to hit moving targets. But perhaps if you had to hold down the mouse button to make your shots more accurate but that would get less and less as your skill increases.
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I wouldn\'t have thought that lag would be a problem any more than it usually is, as aiming could be treated as not being real time. By not being real time, I mean that as the reticle wavers, it would not have to be constantly reported to the server, or controlled by the server (any more than the server saying \"this amount of waver\" ), but only reported as the shot is fired, and thus only one location has to be dealt with. I think Crystal Blue is going to have real-time combat anyway, so a close combat attack would have no advantage lagwise over ranged attacks because everything would be dealt with as if it were, for instance, LOTR. That said, I\'m probably incorrect.
With regard to reticle size as a buff or debuff, you are right and I am wrong! HAH! No... Wait...
EDIT: *grumble typos grumble*
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No one has to listen to me but I would like to see the sheathes for the weapon jingling at your side, hip inside robe or leg. Just an idea......dont have to listen.......ignore me...
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if people are trying to work with a numberless system, its going to involve something i like to call dynamic systems. and computers are bad at calcluating them.
to summerize, computers + numbers= good , ergo->use numbers (all current rpgs need some form of numbers to do graphical, damagal, or whateveragal )
i havent heard of any sort of rpg to not use numbers, in fact real life has become quantifiable through precise measurements. so so so
so buttons.
(i dont understand what i just wrote)
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i think stats should be hidden but you should still have some way of telling about how good your sword, axe, pointy stick is. something like descriptions \" you see a sword with a keen edge and a fine hilt but the base of the sword is slowly starting to rust away\" and i tyhink you could make this a randomly generated list so each one doesnt have to be specific like take my sword for example its a 10.8 slash broadsword instead of saying 10.8 you could have it have a base number for all broadswords like a 5 or something then have it say adjectives (kind of like the new random item generation system but not directly in the name but the description) and some adjectives or descriptions would have different modifiers (ex. looks to be of fine craftsmanship=+3 showing a bit of rust -1 very rusted -10) or something like that but keep all the numbers invisible so you dont have a perfect uber weapon but a series of strong weapons that very depending on their age and stuff and if a monster thats in the sewers drops an item it is more likely to be rusted and if its an axe in the forest it might be duller than others or something like that well anyway im a noob so dont listen to me =]