PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Seytra on November 24, 2004, 10:41:50 pm
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Hi everyone!
I have thought about Kran reproduction, as I don\'t know of any official or inofficial \"theories of operation\" on this subject.
Here\'s my idea:
Kran don\'t have sexes, but they do have variety. Therefore, they can\'t be utilising some sort of macro-mitosis (like some forms of worms and jellyfish perform AFAIK), at least not solely. However, I wish to add a great deal of novelty to it, therefore any conventional form of reproduction is out, including the merging of bodies in combination with mitosis, as can be found in one-cell beings.
However, the fact that they are stone-based gave me an idea. If we look at any stone, we can clearly see that every sample of it is different. Therefore, I propose that the Kran actually grow from stones.
A Kran \"seed\" is placed onto a stone, into which it then will bury itself by a combination of acids and bases that dissolve the rock but also recreate it after moving inwards, effectively protecting the growing hatchling.
Once inside, the seed starts to dissolve the stone from inside (morally acceptable since rock doesn\'t have feelings) and incorporates it into itself. When they reach full size, they break or dissolve the remaining rock to do their first shaky steps on the ground.
this means that Kran are \"born\" fully grown. The entire process would take long time, like 5 to 10 years, depending on the hardness of the rock, which however might determine the young Krans physical attributes, at least initially (i.e., hard rock (like granite) will yield more endurance but less dexterity than limestone).
The Kran body would produce those seeds in a shielded location, probably in the chest, from which they grow, shielded by a somewhat flexible fold (which is too thin to be seen unless closely examined. This growing will take about 7 months, but only happen once every 20 years. The seed can, however, just remain there, it doesn\'t have to be deployed at all if the Kran doesn\'t wish to do so.
The pleasure of reproduction would be more like planting a tree for a passionate gardener, though, but this very conscious decision will make the Kran care very well for their children (i.e., viciously guard the rock).
Kran can sense a rock that contains a deployed seed, so that they can avoid eating / destroying it by accident.
Therefore, Kran will have less frequent reproduction but their reproduction will be successful almost 100% of the time.
This was originally posted by me on this thread:
http://www.planeshift3d.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=11344&boardid=22&styleid=3
(maybe a mod can move the relevant posts from there to this thread, given the other posters are OK with that?)
The discussion on that thread yielded the addition that silicon is one of the building blocks of any rock, thus a Kran could indeed grow from a rock.
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I read this in the other thread, and I admit it makes sense.
Seems a little odd, but it works.
Good work Seytra.
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Originally posted by Seytra
The Kran body would produce those seeds in a shielded location, probably in the chest, from which they grow, shielded by a somewhat flexible fold (which is too thin to be seen unless closely examined. This growing will take about 7 months, but only happen once every 20 years. The seed can, however, just remain there, it doesn\'t have to be deployed at all if the Kran doesn\'t wish to do so.
The pleasure of reproduction would be more like planting a tree for a passionate gardener, though, but this very conscious decision will make the Kran care very well for their children (i.e., viciously guard the rock).
Kran can sense a rock that contains a deployed seed, so that they can avoid eating / destroying it by accident.
Therefore, Kran will have less frequent reproduction but their reproduction will be successful almost 100% of the time.
A subject very interesting. I think, however, that the krans should have the seeds on their back and a reproduction frequency of five years (i think that twenty years is a long time for any specie ;) ). If the seeds are on their back could give a sort of loving/social relations. For example, one Kran would need another one to extract the seed from its back, they would use some sort of loving, social and mystic ritual, it would provide them a great pleasure and something great to celebrate with their community. Yeah, one Kran more!
Good idea Seytra!
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That\'s a very interesting though Daecarne, scary but interesting. Getting pleasure from pulling things out of krans\' backs?
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You know now that i think about it... i never even thought about Krans reproducing since they dont have sexes. Although in order to keep thier race from extinction they would have to reproduce but i never knew how.
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@ Everyone: Thanks! :)
@ daecarne: I somehow estimate that a Kran would live very long compared to a (RL) human. Therefore it makes sense to have them reproduce only at great intervals in order to prevent overpopulation.
As for having the seed on the back: I\'d like to emphasize the implication that comes with the fact that Kran have no gender: they don\'t need two individuals to reproduce, one suffices.
This is a (IMO) very important thing that makes them distinct from other races. Having the seed on the back and require another individual to get it out doesn\'t make sense to me in this light, because there isn\'t any reason for it. OK, evolutionary theories don\'t apply here as Kran are created by Talad, but OTOH why would Talad have them be asexual just to require another individual nontheless? Furthermore, I don\'t see this as a basis for a loving / social relationship (i.e., I don\'t think that the fact that we require two people to reproduce and that we get pleasure from the reproductive act is of any importance for the social relation known as \"family\". After all, there are lots of animals that don\'t form any sort of relationship despite requiring two individuals and getting pleasure from the reproductive act).
In fact, the social relationship would need to exist before the deployment of a seed, because it is important to make sure the rock is properly guarded at all times (and be it only to make sure that no dwarf digs a tunnel through it by accident).
Therefore, I\'d say they wouldn\'t necessarily create the usual 1-1 relationship, but maybe some sort of group relationship of several individuals, maybe five to 10. They may have developed social standards that require a certain number.
I feel that very much of the appeal of Krans lies in their great difference to everything else, and thus I would like to see their society to have created the distinctly different norms that one would expect given their different nature.
It would also be possible that Kran have no relationships (as we know them) at all, and that they cut out the rock they wish to deploy their seed in, carry it home and put it into a sealed chamber in their house, or just have it stand in the \"living room\".
IMO, the parenting part will come after the young Kran leaves the rock it grwe from, because now they have to be taught and integrated into the society. I think that the Kran who seeded will (in most cases) be very engaged for the young one and thus maybe raise it alone. Or they then form groups, like indicated above.
@ Adeli: is there a difference between pulling something out and stiching something in?
Anyway, I don\'t think that they should get pleasure from this, because that is only one method of ensuring that reproduction is being performed.
Given the low failure rate of Kran reproduction and their artificial nature (i.e., they always had consciousness and therefore other incentives for reproduction aren\'t required)) as well as the method of reproduction itself it seems out of place to me. Furthermore, this is something that would help reinforce the distinct difference I am aiming for.
Last but not least, the back is less protected than the front, which makes it a worse place for something as important as the seed, so this would be another reason why it should go in front.
All this makes for very interesting possibilities for Kran society, which might even warrant another thread?
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I\'d be interested to hear your thoughts on Kran society. After you post them, we can all refine them until something is perfect, or perfect enough.
I guess you\'re right about the pulling out part, but you managed to make both sound very dirty.
I think any pleasure should not be sexual, as Kran are clearly asexual, sexual pleasure seems impossible. (But then, I\'ve never been asexual, so I don\'t know). They should be happy as they are furthering their race/species that is all.
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Bah I already said they reproduce through budding :P
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I\'m not sure how interesting this thread is, but I guess you can get inspired or take some of the theories from it and insert those theories into your thoughts, and see what comes out:
http://planeshift.oodlz.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=8678&boardid=13
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Actually Kran are made of sand (Sillicon) not of stone.
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ok... how about this... Krans come from (bear with me here).... the mind of Talad! OMG!!! :P
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Originally posted by Merdarion
Actually Kran are made of sand (Sillicon) not of stone.
Yes, but silicon is also a basic building block of any rock, so there is enough silicon in rocks for Kran to grow from. Even better, rock contains various minerals, whereas sand doesn\'t, and the Kran don\'t consist entirely of silicon, but require various minerals as well. Therefore, it\'s more reasonable to have them grow from rock than from sand.
I have read through the \"Can Krans bleed\" thread and there are some interesting ideas in it. I posted my ideas on that topic on at the thread. I find it funny that the last sentence on that thread was asking about Kran reproduction. :)
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Personally, I think that a couple of Kran get together and get a bit \'hot and sweaty\'.
In fact they got *so* hot and sweaty that the rock actually melts and becomes Lava; thus spawning their offspring ;)
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Originally posted by Parts
Personally, I think that a couple of Kran get together and get a bit \'hot and sweaty\'.
In fact they got *so* hot and sweaty that the rock actually melts and becomes Lava; thus spawning their offspring ;)
Ehh, sounds like Harakiri.
I agree with you, Setyra. But they would need some stone, where silicon is included. Not diamond, etc. (What could be worse than a Kran made of Diamond {cannot move, cannot be destroyed, has to stay where it\'s born for his whole live, and did I say they wouldn\'t be able to move?})
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Diamonds are carbon based. Kran, by definition, have silicon skins. Silicon does not occur in the free, elemental state, but is found in the form of silicon dioxide (or silica), SiO 2 , and in the form of complex silicates. The mineral quartz, varieties of quartz (such as carnelian, chrysoprase, onyx, flint, and jasper), and the minerals cristobalite and tridymite are the naturally occurring crystal forms of silica.
Therefore, kran skin must be made out of quartz or quartz variant. There is no info on what they are made of on the inside.
Kran are not made out of sand. Sand is not an element, nor is it made completely out of silica. Sand is only one form silica (quartz) takes. Others would be rocks, stones, pebbles, and boulders.
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Originally posted by Merdarion
Originally posted by Parts
Personally, I think that a couple of Kran get together and get a bit \'hot and sweaty\'.
In fact they got *so* hot and sweaty that the rock actually melts and becomes Lava; thus spawning their offspring ;)
Ehh, sounds like Harakiri.
HAHAHAHAHA!!!! (http://smaylik.by.ru/i/51.gif)(http://smaylik.by.ru/i/51.gif)(http://smaylik.by.ru/i/51.gif)
Hara-kiri (Seppuku) - suicidal ritual, bounded to Bushido as a part of a moral. Appeared during the period of feudal development of Japan. Samurai and other representatives of higher estates of Japan commited hara-kiri if their pride was insulted, after commiting an \"unworthy\" action or after death of their suzerein. Later was also added as a punishment for crimes under the court of law.
(http://smaylik.by.ru/i/586.gif)
As far as the kran do not follow the basic concept of life as a form of existing of protein(albumen) bodies, more \"magical\" way can be suggested.
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Originally posted by Exaero_Fiero
Hara-kiri (Seppuku) - suicidal ritual
Regardless of what Kran life is, this would fit (i.e. they live -> they can commit suicide, by starving if everything else fails). Also, if you read the setting, you\'ll notice that magic doesn\'t work well on Kran, therefore magic is not the way to go about anything in Kran life (or death). Since lava would melt the Kran, it can be concluded that they most likely will die, which would mean that a self-induced melting would be suicide, which Hara-kiri is as well. (I know that Hara-kiri isn\'t done by creating lava, and I assume that nobody was thinking that anyway.)
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Originally posted by Seytra
Originally posted by Exaero_Fiero
Hara-kiri (Seppuku) - suicidal ritual
Regardless of what Kran life is, this would fit (i.e. they live -> they can commit suicide, by starving if everything else fails). Also, if you read the setting, you\'ll notice that magic doesn\'t work well on Kran, therefore magic is not the way to go about anything in Kran life (or death). Since lava would melt the Kran, it can be concluded that they most likely will die, which would mean that a self-induced melting would be suicide, which Hara-kiri is as well. (I know that Hara-kiri isn\'t done by creating lava, and I assume that nobody was thinking that anyway.)
1) Why not? If kran were created by magic, why won\'t they reproduct by magic?
2) Nope, there is no way the (LOL) japanese suicidal ritual (which by the way translated as \"belly-cut\") can fit with the reproductive process of the kran(!). Hara-kiri is a suicide, however you can\'t call any suicide a hara-kiri.
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Are you deliberately misinterpreting what I write?
1) Because the setting says so. Kran are exceptionally bad with magic, and also have high resistance to it, therefore why would they reproduce by it? The fact that they were created by magic also applies to the Lemurs, so why would these not reproduce by magic?
2) I did not, and I know perfectly well how Hara-kiri is performed. Also, it wasn\'t intended to fit the reproductive process. The only thing that was said was that the way that has been proposed (getting hot & sweaty to melt the ground) was a bad idea (and probably meant as joke anyway), because it would be nothing but suicide.
Obviously, the term \"Hara-kiri\" was used to describe \"suicide\" instead of the particular form of suicide it actually refers to, but probably it\'s becoming synonymous for it regardless, just as \"races\" and \"species\" in RPGs.
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Originally posted by Seytra
Are you deliberately misinterpreting what I write?
1) Because the setting says so. Kran are exceptionally bad with magic, and also have high resistance to it, therefore why would they reproduce by it? The fact that they were created by magic also applies to the Lemurs, so why would these not reproduce by magic?
1)Because, they have some other way to reproduce. Even if the kran are not designed for using magic, but were created by it, name me a reason, why would they not be able to reproduce by it. As far as kran are not made out of flesh, and instead their inner body is made out of rock (assumption), the only way they can exist is magical, which sounds very strange, considering that \"Kran are exceptionally bad with magic\".
2)Yup, that was a joke...After melting and solidifying kran would be a LITTLE different (colour, build-up), then the original kran.
Maybe its just my ignorant self, which imagined kran doing a hara-kiri... ) Haven\'t seen such a generalization in my life and that was my problem.
P.S. Why are we talking about kran reproduction anyways, if it wn\'t be a part of a game?
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Hmm, this is a most interesting theory. However, your little bit about the seed using acids to dissolve the rock in which the seed has taken to thriving in lacks a small something the definition of dissolve is:
1. To pass into solution.
2. To become liquid; melt.
3. To break up or disperse.
4. To become disintegrated; disappear.
5. To be overcome emotionally or psychologically: I dissolved into helpless laughter.
6. To lose clarity or definition; fade away.
7. To shift shots in a motion-picture film or videotape by having one shot fade out while the next appears behind it and grows clearer as the first one dims.
8. To reduce to a liquid form; melt
9. To break into basic component elemental parts; disenegrate
n.
1. A transition in a motion-picture film or videotape made by fading out one shot while the next one grows clearer. Also called lap dissolve.
Thus having been said, this is saying that by dissolving a rock, if you refer to the ninth definition of dissolve, you are reducing the rock back into the silicon and other elements that were the basis of the foundation of the rock, and if you refer to definitions 2 and 8, it is saying that the object that is dissolved would be reduced to a liquid.
The point that I am trying to get across by saying this is that if the rock the seed is in dissolves, then there will be pieces of the dissolved rock just floating about inside, and leaving the rock with a certain hollow characteristic. So maybe the quickest way to fix this(which I mistakenly have been avoiding and I hope you all forgive me for this) would be to say that the seed absorbs the disentegrated or dissolved fragments and compounds of the rock.
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Is it official the the Kran where made by magic?
Thats rather stupid I guess with all their magic resistance...
Originally posted by Exaero_Fiero
Why are we talking about kran reproduction anyways, if it wn\'t be a part of a game?
He, he thats it!
They cant reproduce.
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You haven\'t read the setting, that\'s apparent.
Perhaps you should?
Talad (you know who that is?) created the Kran with magic, just as Laanx (ring any bells) created the Lemurs with magic.
Seytra, nobody seems to have any real objections to your theory
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Originally posted by Chestar
The point that I am trying to get across by saying this is that if the rock the seed is in dissolves, then there will be pieces of the dissolved rock just floating about inside, and leaving the rock with a certain hollow characteristic.
Absolutely. The Kran sould be growing inside this space.
Originally posted by Chestar
So maybe the quickest way to fix this(which I mistakenly have been avoiding and I hope you all forgive me for this) would be to say that the seed absorbs the disentegrated or dissolved fragments and compounds of the rock.
Which is what I wrote:
Originally posted by Seytra
the seed starts to dissolve the stone from inside (...) and incorporates it into itself
:D
@ Exaero_Fiero and Jaakon: for roleplaying purposes. It is good to at least have a clue about what yur race\'s reproduction is like when talking about it. Furthermore, when you talk about how you were raised, it makes a big difference if you grew from stone or were born, or were an egg or whatever. Furthermore, this theory will, as I have indicated, be a major factor in Kran society, because usually societies are created around reproduction.
Furthermore, magic resistance and magical creation not necessarily are mutually exclusive. I indeed find it strange, but OTOH, Kran weren\'t created in a controlled way, which explains a lot. Also, this explains, or rather exposes, a lot about the way magic works in Yliakum.
@ Adeli: It indeed looks like it, which probably is a good sign. :) Hopefully, the settings department isn\'t going to rip it apart too soon. ;)
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Originally posted by Adeli
You haven\'t read the setting, that\'s apparent.
Perhaps you should?
Talad (you know who that is?) created the Kran with magic, just as Laanx (ring any bells) created the Lemurs with magic.
Seytra, nobody seems to have any real objections to your theory
I think they need to modify the title of \"setting\" and replace it with something more appropriate.
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Why? Setting = introduction and description of the story enviroment, pretty appropriate term to me...
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Sorry Seytra I was tired when i posted that; not really paying attention. It seems i missed your sentence about it incorportating the dissolved rock.
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Jaakon please dont come here ruining our time. As Seytra said earlier, it is important to know how the world that we exist in works, and seeing as our characters live in PS, it would be important while on PS that we know most everything so that we dont have any factual questions that have no answer. There are some things that sit in the back of someone\'s mind, unanswered, and I am not sure about you but i know it bugs me after a while.
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Seytra I have enjoyed reading your posts on this thread, as well as everyone else\'s. I have learned a lot about how people think in this game, and it has been very interesting reading about everyone\'s opinion of the actions that should be taken place to set this obstacle of ignorance right. Thank you Seytra, and everyone who posted.
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Originally posted by Exaero_Fiero
Why? Setting = introduction and description of the story enviroment, pretty appropriate term to me...
Because when I see it I immediately think poor literacy and assume they mean \"settings\" and avoid that link. If other people think the same way then they probably disregard that link to. I personally think theres better words to choose from. I just doesnt read well.
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At first I thought it was inaptly named too, but think of it as the \"setting\" of PlaneShift.
Try and think of a better name, see what you come up with?
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Ill do just that.
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Somewhat related to reproduction and lightly touched on in this topic was the reproduction rate. Something very important to look at.
Given their nature as thing made of rock, the stereotype would indicate that they may live extremely long lives. Thought diverges in two directions here:
1) That they were, and always will be, magically created
2) That they are created with the ability to reproduce in some way.
The first option means that (given their lack of powerful magical ability) they are probably created mostly as servants, workers, etc by wizards of other races. This would make them closer to \'golems\' or animate objects rather than actual life forms (and again, looking at stereotypes) more likely to be ageless (ie - they live until killed, destroyed, starvet, etc). The fact that they eat does not diminish the odds of this path, since even inanimate things (cars, for instance) need some sort of fuel to survive. Of course, I don\'t think that this is the way that people are leaning towards as far as the canon law.
The second method is the one everyone\'s been talking about. If they reproduce the stereotype again leads to believe that they do die after time (several hundred years, maybe? Possibly as low as forty, since they would be \'born\' fully developed).
The main thing to look at here is lifespan. If they have a low reproduction rate and short lifespans, they would go extinct. A high reproduction rate and a long lifespan, they would flood the country unless their death rate (through falls, war, etc) was extremely high.
If each individual Kran can reproduce every five years and live for even 50, that\'s 8-10 over the course of their life.
Compare this. Humans (with weaker bodies and only minor medical access through magic) probably live 40-50, with each pair producing one child every 15 months or so. Or, four children over five years. Combine with a 15-year maturation period before being able to reproduce, need for a second to reproduce. I did the math (ignoring inbreeding, assuming that numbers matched perfectly for male/female couples). It got pretty complicated on the human side of the chart, but I think I got everything right. Starting with two population each, at the end of fifty years of reproduction with no early deaths or miscarraiges on either side, there would be over 1,000 Kran and only 130 humans.
Math: (time measured in five year increments, for the first fifty years of any set)
Kran - (Pop. x 2)
Human - Three empty spaces (maturation period)
((Pop. / 2) * 4) + Pop.
This assumes that, basically, every woman has a child almost every year from age 15 to 50, with no miscarraiges (resulting in 35 children). If you go with natural death/miscarraige statistics, the population difference might be closer to 100 or even 75 to 1,000.
The point of this is that without a maturation period or need for a partner, Kran possess the potential for explosive growth even with a 1 per five years. Of course this doesn\'t rule those numbers out; maybe they practice controlled growth to limit strain on resources, or simply have no drive to reproduce (somewhat of a possibility). One interesting story line for the game would be a sort of witch-hunt / pogrom against Kran out of fear that they could quickly overpower any other kingdom.
Alternately, they need an extremely high mortality rate. In the bit about them on the Settings page, it says they\'re somewhat susceptible to cracking, breaking, etc - is it possible that accidental falls limit their number significantly, that a lack of parental instincts greatly reduce the actual number of new Kran, or so forth.
Hmm... I like Kran. A lot, now that I think of it.
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Not to rain on anybodies parade, but what if kran don\'t reproduce at all? Bare with me on this, I like the ideas of kran reproduction (I kinda helped start this thread), but we also need to discuss all options.
So, what if the kran created in the beginning are all that exist? They don\'t die of old age and they don\'t reproduce. If one dies from other causes, Talad resurrects them.
In other words, the kran that are living now are the same kran Talad made originally, and will be the same kran in the future.
Maybe all the kran could be hibernating in the soil to accommodate population fluctuations. All kran would be in hibernation until a player \'created\' one. He would then rise from the ground and begin his adventure.
How\'s that for a unique race?
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Originally posted by Under the moon
Not to rain on anybodies parade, but what if kran don\'t reproduce at all? Bare with me on this, I like the ideas of kran reproduction (I kinda helped start this thread), but we also need to discuss all options.
So, what if the kran created in the beginning are all that exist? They don\'t die of old age and they don\'t reproduce. If one dies from other causes, Talad resurrects them.
In other words, the kran that are living now are the same kran Talad made originally, and will be the same kran in the future.
Maybe all the kran could be hibernating in the soil to accommodate population fluctuations. All kran would be in hibernation until a player \'created\' one. He would then rise from the ground and begin his adventure.
How\'s that for a unique race?
Nope. The Planeshift guide clearly states that Kran reproduce. Specifically, \"Also, the way in which they reproduce is incompatible with all other races: there are no half-breed Kran.\"
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*uff* lots of stuff to read!
All this reproduction thingy... you made it so complicate.
\"Think simple\" someone said (can\'t remember who did...)
Ever seen scy fiction movies, TV programs or games?
How do the machines repruduce?
They gather enough material of what they are made of and inside/outside make another just like or better than the 1st one. Now that I\'m thinking about it, Krans (if this is correct) evolve faster than any other living being!
Or maybe they reproduce by mitosis (is it spelled correctely?) not sexual reprodoction, like certain microorganisms and some complex beings.
When a Kran thinks it\'s time to reproduce, maybe it stays at home for some weeks (if Kran\'s reproduction is made this way it\'s very slow) or maybe a month. But, \'coz it takes so long, maybe it\'s wrong...
\"Also, the way in which they reproduce is incompatible with all other races: there are no half-breed Kran.\"
That means there\'s no \"fun\" to Krans :D (poor Krans)
\'till now everything suits in my theorys
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So, what if the kran created in the beginning are all that exist? They don\'t die of old age and they don\'t reproduce. If one dies from other causes, Talad resurrects them.
If something doesn\'t die of old age, doesn\'t mean it doesn\'t repruduce.
Think of hydras (an almost microorganism that can\'t die by aging, human work...) and they reproduce.
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I\'ll research the subject... I mean not Krans reproduction, but possible ways of reproduction.
(if the post is a bit unorganized, it\'s because I was typing a thing and another thing comes to the mind and you have to write it quickly... I think you know the feeling)
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would this make kran intrinsically good miners?
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would this make kran intrinsically good miners?
If you were a kran you could mine your self, lol... But in some way yes, Krans know better rocks than the others do... even though an Enkidukai can mine much better than a Kran.
I researched about reproduction (saw some strange ones and some made up) but there wasn\'t things considerable to be relevant to this thread
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Originally posted by Lordbug
would this make kran intrinsically good miners?
If you were a kran you could mine your self, lol... But in some way yes, Krans know better rocks than the others do... even though an Enkidukai can mine much better than a Kran.
I researched about reproduction (saw some strange ones and some made up) but there wasn\'t things considerable to be relevant to this thread
I\'ve posted elsewhere that I think that exactly for this reason Kran should have a natural aversion to mining. Who likes to hack away at their own ,ehm, rock?
They should roll against wisdom to be able to mine :)
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Originally posted by Feran
Originally posted by Lordbug
would this make kran intrinsically good miners?
If you were a kran you could mine your self, lol... But in some way yes, Krans know better rocks than the others do... even though an Enkidukai can mine much better than a Kran.
I\'ve posted elsewhere that I think that exactly for this reason Kran should have a natural aversion to mining. Who likes to hack away at their own ,ehm, rock?
I\'m not sure about that. It may be both ways. On one hand, it certainly is like you said. On the other hand, the sheer quantity of rock might be sufficiently overwhelming to prevent every but the most philosophic of Krans from even thinking about it. Furthermore, Kran require minerals to function, so they\'ll have to mine, albeit not for the ores that are mined commonly by other species. They might even find it rather amusing that the other species mine these things in such ridiculous quantities, especially since they don\'t even eat them.
This could make for an interesting quirk in Kran society, actually: like there are vegetarians / vegans IRL, there could be anti-miners in Kran society, who wish to \"not abuse the rocks of life\". :)
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A long while ago scientist have found out that lifeforms can be silicon based just as they can be carbon based and that they wouldn\'t be surprised if a silicon based lifeform was found on this planet. Now silicon based lifeforms dont have to be hard as rocks like for us , we\'re carbon based so that dont mean we have to be hard as diamonds or coal. So I would theorize that being that Kran evolved from a harsh environment and are well suited to it, their skin is probably composed of 2 layers. The lower layer would be a thick, tough, rigidly flexible skin that is alot like rhinocerous skins. The upper layer is sorta grown like skin or fur and this upper layer is what gives the kran it\'s hard stony like appearance. Very tiny crystals grow from the rhino like skin giving the Kran a stony or stucco like feel and appearance. Now if you were to look at the skin under a magnafying glass or microscope, you\'ll see something like a quartzy like cobblestone pavement. This cobblestone effect allows for the Kran to have it\'s flexibility while at the same time the crystals protect the Kran from envionmental hazards (heat, water), blades, blunt force and points. The Kran aren\'t fast movers due to the stiffness of their lower rhino skin. Now that Kran must ingest stone or what ever they ingest, there must be a delivery system in place to replace the vital material throughout their body and that would mean a digestive system and blood vessels. So if you do successfully crack open a Kran , it will bleed. Now reproduction wise, I would suppose a pair of Kran would each excrete a clay like ball in which one of them knead both balls together activating the life process. Once kneaded this bigger ball develops a hard protective shell. Once it has developed enough , a fully developed very small Kran hatches from it. It will take a long time for a small Kran to grow to adult size but they will always be fully independant and able like their adult counterpart. Now the clear crystals you see on various parts of Kran such as their chest, these are grown over time and are pretty much like the same deal with antlers on antelope and various other animals. It may be a way of attracting another Kran for courtship. The bigger and nicer crystals you have growing on you , the more desirable you are. Cloudy and deformed crystals are a sign of a sick Kran.
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Originally posted by Seytra
Originally posted by Feran
Originally posted by Lordbug
would this make kran intrinsically good miners?
If you were a kran you could mine your self, lol... But in some way yes, Krans know better rocks than the others do... even though an Enkidukai can mine much better than a Kran.
I\'ve posted elsewhere that I think that exactly for this reason Kran should have a natural aversion to mining. Who likes to hack away at their own ,ehm, rock?
I\'m not sure about that. It may be both ways. On one hand, it certainly is like you said. On the other hand, the sheer quantity of rock might be sufficiently overwhelming to prevent every but the most philosophic of Krans from even thinking about it. Furthermore, Kran require minerals to function, so they\'ll have to mine, albeit not for the ores that are mined commonly by other species. They might even find it rather amusing that the other species mine these things in such ridiculous quantities, especially since they don\'t even eat them.
This could make for an interesting quirk in Kran society, actually: like there are vegetarians / vegans IRL, there could be anti-miners in Kran society, who wish to \"not abuse the rocks of life\". :)
I was just about to say that, the human vegetarians and so on. Or a Kran could be just like me: it doesn\'t eat rock \'coz it doesn\'t like it :P
A long while ago scientist have found out that lifeforms can be silicon based just as they can be carbon based and that they wouldn\'t be surprised if a silicon based lifeform was found on this planet. Now silicon based lifeforms dont have to be hard as rocks like for us , we\'re carbon based so that dont mean we have to be hard as diamonds or coal. So I would theorize that being that Kran evolved from a harsh environment and are well suited to it, their skin is probably composed of 2 layers. The lower layer would be a thick, tough, rigidly flexible skin that is alot like rhinocerous skins. The upper layer is sorta grown like skin or fur and this upper layer is what gives the kran it\'s hard stony like appearance. Very tiny crystals grow from the rhino like skin giving the Kran a stony or stucco like feel and appearance. Now if you were to look at the skin under a magnafying glass or microscope, you\'ll see something like a quartzy like cobblestone pavement. This cobblestone effect allows for the Kran to have it\'s flexibility while at the same time the crystals protect the Kran from envionmental hazards (heat, water), blades, blunt force and points. The Kran aren\'t fast movers due to the stiffness of their lower rhino skin. Now that Kran must ingest stone or what ever they ingest, there must be a delivery system in place to replace the vital material throughout their body and that would mean a digestive system and blood vessels. So if you do successfully crack open a Kran , it will bleed. Now reproduction wise, I would suppose a pair of Kran would each excrete a clay like ball in which one of them knead both balls together activating the life process. Once kneaded this bigger ball develops a hard protective shell. Once it has developed enough , a fully developed very small Kran hatches from it. It will take a long time for a small Kran to grow to adult size but they will always be fully independant and able like their adult counterpart. Now the clear crystals you see on various parts of Kran such as their chest, these are grown over time and are pretty much like the same deal with antlers on antelope and various other animals. It may be a way of attracting another Kran for courtship. The bigger and nicer crystals you have growing on you , the more desirable you are. Cloudy and deformed crystals are a sign of a sick Kran.
Somethings you said... I think I read that in some place...
Anyway, that\'s an interesting theory...
But instead of guessing we could just pick some cameras and follow some Krans for a year or two like the BBC guys or ask one... lol... I\'m very sleepy, normally I just say nonsence :P
Ok, really: I do think that theory is great...
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Skylander, your proposal is interesting, but it also is very much like conventional reproduction, and I wanted to move away from that. Heck, except the actual reproductive process, it is exactly like conventional reproduction: growing up, etc..
I think Kran should be substantially different, both in look as well as in all other aspects of life. This means reproduction should be much more different than just genderless. So should be growing up. And their society. In fact, their society will be very different if there are neither partner-bonds nor attractivity (sexual or otherwise).
Natural selection, if it actually is present within Kran, considering their creation, would be accomplished by the Kran finding the best rock, and actually being able to reach and protect it. Diversity would be accomplished by the natural differences in the rock. There is no real requirement for two pertners, and therefore there shouldn\'t be two.
I wouldn\'t like it if Kran were just \"humans that happen to look like rock\". Granted, this would make roleplaying a Kran much more easy, but it\'d also take much of the novelty and challenge out of it.
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The devs want the game to be realistic, the things have to be believeble(?)... So I think Skylander\'s theory is great, it\'s acceptable and adapted to PS world.
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If ya\'ll have ever read Terry Pratchett - in his world (Discworld) Trolls are made of rock. They have diamonds for teeth and think Heaven is \'down\'
But anyway, in one book you get a bit better look at their society and they refer to their young as \"pebbles\" and death occurs as they simply get slower until they, umm, rejoin the landscape. I\'m thinking something might be borrowed here.
as for the origional post of depositing \'seeds\' onto rocks, why could this not include 2 Kran? Just because there are no sexes does not mean cloneing is the only means of reporduction and you need some way to produce varity.
(edit) ahh, OK, after posting I found the next two pages of replies which negate some of my post. oops.
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you do know that what really happened was their is female kran but the no gender thing is a stereo type.... kran get pissed about that... it\'s the real world equivilent of telling a black man ti get your bags cuz u think he is a bell hop :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Black_rose
you do know that what really happened was their is female kran but the no gender thing is a stereo type.... kran get pissed about that... it\'s the real world equivilent of telling a black man ti get your bags cuz u think he is a bell hop :rolleyes:
I don\'t understand what this is supposed to tell me...
@ Lordbug: I didn\'t say it wasn\'t adapted to PS and also not that it was bad. I however don\'t think it is that much more believable than my theory, it\'s just much more like the conventional way, and thus it\'s more convenient and less of a challenge. However, I don\'t think that makes my theory worse. I\'m not arguing this way because it\'s my theory, BTW. Instead, it simply is my strong belief that Kran should be very very different, in any possible aspect, and my theory IMO emphasizes this much more than Skylander\'s, as I already said in my post.
@ Walzmyn: I have never read Terry Pratchett, and I didn\'t know about the things you\'re referring to. I came up with this absolutely independently, and ideas aren\'t patentable yet (but maybe soon, see my sig).
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ahh, opps. I kinda miss typed.
I meant to say we might be able to borrow from his line of thinking - more on the social development not the procreation - to \"flesh out\" the Kran story line.
ment in no way to imply you didn\'t come up with it. I think your idea is pretty engenious (sp?) actually.
Pratchett\'s a very good ready BTW. Kinda like Tolkien meets Twain. :)
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seytra,
it means that you are all anti kran jerks
their are kran males and females but you stereo type them!!!!!!! :D
actually it means that their are but they look basically the same (with different parts of the lock if you know what i mean)
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In response to Skylander:
\"My crystal is bigger than yours\"
Just had to be said :P
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lol Aravi. never judge a Kran by the size of it\'s crystal, it\'s how it uses it.
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I don\'t see why krans should have no sex. They may just be like the dwarves, there are males and females, but they\'re all similar, they all have beards, etc.; so it\'s hard to tell the difference.
About the kran reproduction, i preffer to imagine it similar to the way that phoenixes are reborn... think about it...
Everything is magic, isn\'t it? ;)
P.S. Tratchett\'s Discworld is great!
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precicely shadow, plus THE MAN is trying to put down THE KRAN!
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Hey I have a brillant idea, lets just ask a Kran!
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Er... well, I\'m a Kran and I don\'t know...
Anyway, the theorys seem good to me... I mean the serious not the \"just joking\" ones...
I think the devs made this \'coz they didn\'t remember something to say \'bout Krans and also this would players to expeculate... I mean this way there can be ppl ingame interested in the subject and instead of going to RL make a documentary about apes, they can log to PS and study Krans...
Even though I\'m a Kran don\'t know how do we reproduce... I think we do at the moment and forget when we\'re born and then we tell no one maybe \'coz we like to keep it secret, or no one has to do with our private lives or it\'s too embarassing...
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I think, the Kran should be a unique species, too.
Maybe the god that made them loves to make them and so he creates more Kran as more players create Kran characters. The god uses magic to create them out of stone but after creation they are just living beeings belonging to magic like an apple belongs to magic.
The Kran themself do not have to know, where they came from - maybe, nobody told them because nobody know it (with the exception of the creator).
So maybe the initiation of a young Kran in an existing society is more than just beeing borned - the full functional Kran is created somewhere deep under the surface and eventually it has to dig it\'s way to the higher layers untill it first encounters other beeings. It can be alone just for decades - even centuries - before it first encounters another intelligent beeing - other Kran of course (gods tend to know how to place their constructs right, so they likely find the way they should find).
So Kran \"families\" can be some sort of comunities just created to be not alone anymore (since there is no need to build them to survive).
There is no argument against magical creation if a god does it. And i think, some Kran communities can have myths and rituals about creation of their kind (\"you have to give the great red sea bluish crystals of incredible size and exquisite clearness after each great quake to get a new member of the community soon - but most the time the crystals are not good enougth or the great red sea do not want to create a new Kran or someone have done the ceromials wrong...\" *g*).
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I have read this thread. I have been thinking for a while. I like the process for the creation of the Kran from the stone and seed. I am not sold on the carrying of the seed....
What if the seed does not come from the individual? To be transplanted just anywhere in any rock by any Kran?
What if the Kran community has a ritual whereby through a gathering, once a year, they call forth the seed from Talad (adding a magic flair so many have called for). The seed travels down to them in the form of a small meteor consisting of an alloy of silicon not found here and a DNA strand activated by being supplanted in a sacred rock of a garden.. It of course contains all of the necessary components to dissolve the rock core of its placement and stimulate growth of the new Kran. The seed is then placed in an ancient and well-protected rock garden, created at the time of their beginning. It can be an honor bestowed upon their greatest warrior to plant the seed in the stone. The warrior is chosen through a tournament held at the gathering before the ritual of calling down the seed is performed.
I think someone mentioned a seven year gestation for the Kran to develop from the rock. Imagine each year the ritual gathering is performed. The seed is called down and planted on the very day the newest Kran is \"born.\" The gathering Kran then also celebrate the \"birth\" of the new Kran with a naming ritual and a copy of the players guide (j/k).
The warrior who was bestowed with the honor of planting the seed is now forced (honored) to become a rock garden guardian for the gestation of that seed. It is a sabatical for him from questing and fighting. He becomes one of the seven guardians (need a name)of the Rock Garden (needs a name). This is a rotating duty held for seven years. The guardian of the newly \"born\" Kran, who has been in the garden for seven years, leaves the garden and becomes the mentor of the new Kran for a designated period. In this way each Kran is protected from seed till maturity, the end of his tutorial period, and guarantees that the species gets stronger by learning from the best warriors.
There is no need for a faster rate of reproduction because the process abolutely makes sure the viability of the species is carried on. No unaccompanied Kran is ever untrained or unprepared for what will meet him. This leads to incredibly long life-spans along with their body material origin being timeless and virtually indestructible.
To complete the story for our purposes, it is widely known that no Kran is ever seen with his mentor; the training area is secret and unknown to outsiders. No outsider has seen or knows the location of the secret garden of rock. The Kran just appear one day as formiddable, well-trained, and stoic. Those that do not survive or complete training are returned to the earth by their mentor who then (to satisfy the hara-kirists) returns himself to the earth as a failed Kran. The method is not known and has never been witnessed(or at least not thought of by me). It is very rare that this occurs as Kran are vigilant, honorable, and reliable.
I beleive this has incorporated many of the ideas put forth in the thread into a believable and well-constructed story. The process of the seed workings was covered in the first post of the thread so I did not go into it again, but it is easily implanted into this story in the right place.
I hope you enjoy this as much as I enjoyed writing it. Good to get the creative juices flowing again after 4 months of Battlefield 2.
I also just noticed that this thread is very old and probably moot by now :(
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I haven\'t read the rest of the thread but I love your story, Jinkeen :D and I think I\'m going to take it as real for my roleplaying.
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The new additions sounds good except for a few things:
1) Divine creation
This is a (IMO) problematic thing that is not setting-neutral AFAICS. It is stated only that Talad created the Kran species. However, if we were to define that he still[/I) plays a role in the continuation of the species, we are on very thin ice here, because there is no mentioning of anything like \"he continues to ensure continuation of the Kran\". It would also have a direct impact on every Kran, as they\'d be forced to worship Talad.
To me, the settings doesn\'t give any indication that Talad does anything more for the Kran now than for any other species, just like Laanx and the Lemurs. So I think divine intervention isn\'t a good idea.
Also, the meteor idea doesn\'t fit in with the setting: underground. There cannot be meteors in the scientific sense. Rocks falling off the ceiling yes, but the ceiling isn\'t incredibly high above either, a few thens of kilometers at most.
Add to that that Talad would have to be bothered for each and every Kran being born. There are several parts of the history that suggest that he was occupied by other things for some periods, and also the entire creation process seems to me to be a one-time thing, that has been finished instead of an ongoing thing in Talads case. And due to the very human-like behaviour of the gods, it would be at least questionable if Talad would actually continue with this given the desaster he caused. So I think the Kran species is more than likely self-sufficient.
2) Other forms of magic in Kran reproduction doesn\'t strike me as very fitting, given that they are highly un-magic and resistant to magic. This means that reproduction by way of magic is even les likely for them as for any other species.
3) Warriors only: this doesn\'t really strike me as something good. Granted, the protection of the proposed secret garden would obviously be served best by a warrior. However, Kran do not, from the species description, strike me as particularly inclined towards battle, so the mindset implied by the proposed background doesn\'t seem fitting to me. I think the guardian may become a mentor for a new Kran but only in part. The new Kran would after some time need to decide what it\'s actual interests are and seek another mentor. Otherwise, Kran would have severe restrictions in all fields but fighting, which also is not mentioned in the settings.
4) The secret garden: this also is problematic given the comparatively vast size of Yliakum and the appearance of Kran everywhere. This means that having one single such location isn\'t necessarily easily done. It is possible, but there is a likelyhood that with Kran spreading over Yliakum, communities would create similar sites in their vincinity. Not only that, but they could also have come to differ between individual communities. If there is only a central place, then, even with only comparatively weak community bounds, chances of Kran appearing will dramatically dwindle with the distance from the site.
The aspect of the community being created for reasons other than survival is only partially viable AFAICS. While it is true that with children the need for strong protection is greater, it still isn\'t tied solely to that. A community, albeit less tight as in child-bearing societies, is still of benefit so unless the Kran would have a mindset strongly inclined towards solitude they\'d still form communities for protection (which would be in line with the not being alone aspect as well).
Another As for the mentor / never seen with the mentor part: thi is the same as with all other species, and will likely be removed when a tutorial level becomes implemented. It is more a backstory thing than something that would be visible ingame. Also, I think this would take away the options from players to act as mentors for other players.
So my proposal would be
- keep the guarded site idea but extend it to a community-wide site, or at least a few sites, each central to only a few, spacially close, communities, not a global one.
- partially keep the mentor idea but remove the focus on fight so that Kran will retain the option of having peaceful jobs and not be inferior at them
- make the formation of communities, one not based on family, which is in-line with what I mentioned in the other posts, but based on other, weaker aspects like overall benefit due to cooperation, proximity to the rock garden (or similar site) or even based on interest. This would mean that communities wouldn\'t be self-sufficient, but more or less specialised, and have strong interconnections to trade. This would mean that the level of trade between Kran communities would be a lot greater than that of comparably sized other communities. This will likely still be the case when a community doesn\'t majorly consist of Kran, as communities likely retain their mindset by attracting like-minded inhabitants.
These aspects would also serve to not separate the Kran from the other species, which IMO is very necessary given both the limited space and the \"mostly mixed\" population, save the marriage aspect which doesn\'t apply to Kran.
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My suggestions may have been addressed and rejected already, but I have seen nothing to confirm it here, so...
My thoughts are based on the existing history (of course), but using the information a little differently. Also, I have added some ideas from the Jayose library (in-game).
Talad created the Kran from an imperfect understanding of the same power Laanx was taught, his creation went wild during the creation due to his poor control and permanently disfigured Laanx. This suggests due to the permanent nature of the damage to Laanx, that the nature of the released power was perhaps distorted and out-of-phase with the magic imbued by pure Crystal energies.
This would provide a basis for kran resistance to and their difficulty using common magic.
If this is combined with the suggestions put forth in the library about the danger of normal living things being warned to keep a minimum distance from the Crystal due to dangerous energies, perhaps a seed material taken to a close enough distance to recreate the original accident on a smaller scale. The direct kran involvement might be that the pattern of their distorted makeup from their explosive beginning would need to be used as a filter between the more extreme Crystal energies and the \"seed\" for a period potentially dangerous to a single kran. In other words, a series of kran individuals, for safety sake, would take turns imposing a kran imprinting on the Crystal energy to simulate the \"accident\" of their mass birth.
The biggest hole I can imagine at this point is that it would like take and older or better informed Talad to conceive of the method and drive it into the kran as a racial knowledge, since by definition kran should be nearly incapable to devise the method on their own. To answer that hole with some balance and story appeal, would be to create an insert similar to the near extincion of the Lemurs. It might relate that it was fortunate that the kran had long lives because the race was in danger of dying off, before Talad could devise an effective means to provide perpetuate the kran. It was Talad initial attempts to change the kran all at once as a race that defeated his every attempt. It was not until, he realized that he simply could not harness the necessary energy from the Crystal with enough control to be successful, that a less ambitious solution needed. Finally, after so much time that the end of the kran could be foretold by the seers Talad conjured a solution which resulted in a long-term solution to allow the kran an unlimited future.
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Ok, if this is a repeat, then maybe it is a good myth for story-telling.
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Everyone knows kran come from ulbernauts that get encrusted in caves over a period of 1000 years. Just like how stalg-tites and mites are created.