PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: zedd_owd on December 01, 2004, 02:41:17 am
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hello everyone i read on the main page that the crystal from MB will be transfered to CB in the future, Is This Fair ? ( ?( given the amount of cheating by players that occured during the MB phase !!!
A sensible solution would be to wipe the old database and everyone start all over again. Since MB is tech demo a database wipe would not be too unfamilar for those who regulualy test commerical MMorpg games. As this is will result in level playing field for all. Another upside to this is that we\'ll get to play CB faster as soon as the bugs are ironed we can play. ;)
Thus i am appealing to all the honourable people stand with me can call for a database wipe for MB due tot he fact that it\'s no longer supported code and the ease in which it can be hacked.
thanks ;)
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Originally posted by zedd_owd
i read on the main page that the crystal from MB will be transfered to CB in the future
Um... what?
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WUT?! Unfair?! Some people here spent hundreds and maybe even thousands of hours collecting the dammed crystals, and you are just saying to wipe them out like nothing happened?! Some people, maybe cheated, but the bigger part of rp\'ers here are innocent and your word should sound as an insult.
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Originally posted by Exaero_Fiero
Some people, maybe cheated, but the bigger part of rp\'ers here are innocent and your word should sound as an insult.
You need to change this to
\"several people repeatedly cheated big time and not every one has been caught\".
As for \"the bigger part\", that is true, but since nobody can tell whose crystals are cheated and whose aren\'t, there is no proof. This is another example of how a few bad apples cause harm to the entire community. This also is why cheating and other morally questionable activities must never be accepted by the community. I wish for the most severe punishments for even the smallest cheating offense, and will personally report any such activity that comes to my knowledge.
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Where on the main page is this?
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It is an old report on the main site for PS at http://planeshift.it/
However that was a long time ago and was not stated as a concrete thing even then. It was only something that was being thought about...Like most other features mentioned on the -somwhat outdated- main site.
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I also don\'t think that that crystal transferring thing is fair. Because 1. there are enough guys that are hacking 2. Crystals will be removed in CB (AFAIK), so the ones who havew them, have very rare things after CB release.
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Eh? If we do transfer em, it will be like 10 trias for each 1k rubies or something like that. It won\'t be enough to survie on, maybe buy a drink or something
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Whipe the crystals!
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Originally posted by Androgos
Eh? If we do transfer em, it will be like 10 trias for each 1k rubies or something like that. It won\'t be enough to survie on, maybe buy a drink or something
if this is the case then i see no problem with transfering the crystals. when i first heard that this might happen i was a little dissapointed since i myself havent even gotten on MB (waiting for 3.0 dial up 28800bps at best :() but if the transfer rate is even close to 10 trias to 1k rubies....then i\'d say let em have thier crystals.
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only 10trias for 1k rubies... pffff thanks a lot... I\'m sure this is not enough to buy a sword...
and yeah I\'ve already passed more than hundreads hour on mb... and ive just 1k rubies
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Those who are whining about how many hundreds of hours they spent crystal hunting need to take their anger out on the cheaters who brought about this situation. I spent as long as anybody crystal hunting, and each time I reached 5k, I gave them all away and started again. I did that a total of 3 times, if I remember correctly.
What I\'m saying is, chill. They don\'t mean anything. And they\'ll mean very little in CB, so what\'s the point? So you wasted all that time... not really. It kept you involved in the game, the community, and I bet you\'ve made alot of friends during your time here havn\'t you?
When it comes down to it, only the cheaters are really losing something here. If the decent players can just accept the wipe or low transfer rate is a necessary punishment, they can then focus on stopping it happening again. Stop being awkward and do something about it instead.
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...and people wonder why persons like me would rather RP than gem-chase.
~Monketh
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Originally posted by Androgos
Eh? If we do transfer em, it will be like 10 trias for each 1k rubies or something like that. It won\'t be enough to survie on, maybe buy a drink or something
heh...Then, in total of rubies+emeralds+diamonds, I will have 8 tria... sweet... (not really)
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ive only got 2 crystals and i worked pretty dang hard to get those. searching for about 2 hours!!! i dont want em taken away...
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Basicly, the crystal hunt was meant as a mini-game to pass the time AFAIK. Therefore, you can\'t expect to keep the crystals, which is why I never bothered to hunt (that and due to my crappy computer). So my 2 rubies will not yield one single tria, but hey, I\'ll just put them on my desk as paperweights (in my imagination). :)
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psh... hehe. nice imagination u got there mate.
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What I simply don\'t get is why someone would cheat at a TECH DEMO.... I mean, really!! It\'s like cheating at Solitaire, or cheating at Microsoft Word... it just doesn\'t make sense to me.
Would any of the serious players, those who love the game for what it is and for what it will be, actually stop playing if they lose their crystals in CB?
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i think that anyone who cheats, are no good at games. (hense the cheating...)
and no... if someone really likes the game (me), would not quit because of them whiping the system :D Cause crystal blue is gonna ROCK!!!
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Cheats arent all a bad thing, they can be fun sometimes. Dont get me wrong, I NEVER cheat to beat a game. Hacking is a whole other monster, which should be dealt with swiftly and painfully.
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Originally posted by Shadowfalcon
Cheats arent all a bad thing, they can be fun sometimes. Dont get me wrong, I NEVER cheat to beat a game. Hacking is a whole other monster, which should be dealt with swiftly and painfully.
I don\'t mind people cheating in SP games. I, however, do mind them cheating in anything that gets compared to other peoples results, like in MMORPGs. Cheating therefore should be dealt with exactly like hacking.
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As it says on the main site cheating is great thing for single player games thats it. When cheats, hacks, trainers, bots anything of that sort enter a multiplayer the whole thing goes down the shoot. Look at Diablo the first \"MMORPG\" (if u can call Diablo that) that I played when the hacks were made and duping was discoverd....it become pointless. Nothing but a click fest and maybe good for a couple of laughs teasing newbs and repeatingly killing them but thats about it. So boo on hacks and cheats and YAY for getting back on topic.
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Why dont the devs make a poll to see what more players want? Wouldnt that be the only truly fair thing?
EDIT: Hackers did do a lot in MB but I think the only people that really benifited out of that where the hackers. Both got removed so what\'s the problem? I think it should be left as that. Remove that hackers and forget about them.
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Originally posted by Efflixi Aduro
EDIT: Hackers did do a lot in MB but I think the only people that really benifited out of that where the hackers. Both got removed so what\'s the problem?
No, nobody can be sure that everyone has been removed, and also there is no way of telling where th cheated crystals ended up. Sure, many were deleted already, but several were given to others or otherwise transferred to unsuspecting accounts. It\'s like jailing a counterfeiter: much of the false money is still in circulation.
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as i said before it really doesnt matter to me what happens with the crystals since they wont be worth that much i dont see the harm in transfering them. As for my last post it was manly directed towards CB it doesnt matter to me if they hacked the living life out of MB its beta and not much will come of it other than the devs finding the flaws and banning the people.
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Agreed. However, the crystals might have been transferred with a much greater course of exchange if there would have been no cheating / hacking in MB. That is what should be bugging people.
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No one should be bugged.
You should all just be lucky you\'re getting anything, as it was the plan to delete everything in the first place.
And yes, I have plenty of crystals...and no, I don\'t care.
Reply to FES below: MB isn\'t on my comp anymore. Why would it be? ;)
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Kiern wanna leand me a few then? :) Im gonna need to pay waylander soon...
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I agree on the poll, it would be the best in my opinion...
As for me, I dont care, I have a few crystals but I give away most of them...
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I think i have like... 70 rubies that i found in a glitched rubie that i found. When i picked it up... it didnt dissapear, and it kept letting me pick it up lol :))
Other then that i only got 1 dia and 3 emrds
Not really a big deal to me but im glad people wont be getting uber bucks from hacked crystals... :P
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If its fun to you to ruin the game, just to feel more powerful for a moment...
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Hacking is really really good. Yes you heard me, good.
Why this sudden turn then?
Most of the things people associate wierdly is this:
Hacker = cheater = bad
Sure, a hacker can turn a newly discoved exploit to a cheat, but these findings are really appriciated as long as no cheating stuff is produced more than needed for a state-of-concept program/mod to be used on own servers.
For all this.. If you have spent hours and hours in MB of collecting crystals and think you are unfair threatend, though luck then. World ain\'t fair.
And to all of you that complain about cheaters here and there: Sure, they messed with MB, but the things got discovered and fixed thanks to them!
Think about that will ya?
// blueCommand
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yay for blueCommand!!! :D
And I\'ve got around 180 diamonds I think, and I want a wipe, so there :P
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firstly i want to say that i am not posting this is as an insult to the people who have worked hard for the crystals. I am sure that those who genuinely worked hard collect the crystals in MB are honourable people.
The fact remains as posted by others that those who cheated can;t be 100 % detected.
on another noted, a database wipe would not a bad idea after all, as the way the economy was construected in MB was highly inflationary. To those who cares about planeshift , do you really want pass this inflationary problem on to the next Planshift milestone CB ????? in other words do u want to pass the rampant inflationary cycle on the next phase ? Inflation can destroy an online game.
finally i want to thank the honourable people that supported a database wiped, in which it can stop the old problem of MB, results in a level playing field and STOMPS INFLATION IN CB !!
I think the best way to resolve is to have to poll on the issue.
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I used to feel that they should be wiped, I have enough for a mug and a bit left over and that\'s it, but now I don\'t care. Wipe them, keep them, I\'m fine either way. I might even give away what ever I do get to keep, to make a fresh start, as my character will be completely new, why should he have any wealth to his name?
People will always cheat, nothing can really be done about it, prevention will be sidestepped, so they either get punished, or get away with it. I\'ll happily continue to adventure, pauper or prince. Lots of people want to benefit from their hard work, I guess they are entitled. I don\'t care as I said.
Efflixi, what do you have to pay Armeen (Waylander) for, and how much?
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Originally posted by Androgos
Sure, they messed with MB, but the things got discovered and fixed thanks to them!
Think about that will ya?
// blueCommand
I don\'t like this... sure, things got discovered. Found and fixed after the two people who caused so much havoc were banned from the game. Praising them for doing this is completely wrong. You can find bugs and exploits and report them without exploiting them and ruining the server for everyone in the process.
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no, hacking in testing phases IS a good thing, just so long as the hackers are trying to hack all the systems available, and are making thorough reports on exactly what they\'re doing. hackers, quite simply, make the best beta testers. they\'re not hurting anyone by doing this, and in my opinion are earning what they make in game by doing it. however, if they continue to hack for their own gain in the full version, or if they fail to report the hacks they\'ve accomplished, it should be punished severely
remember people, this is pre alpha, we aren\'t here to play, we\'re here to test, and what hackers do is a benefit at this point, as it enables the devs to block the hacks before the game is in it\'s final version.
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Yeah, and find out who isn\'t worth keeping around. :)
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How come I seem to be the only person who wasn\'t effected by the \'ruined server\'?? I really couldn\'t tell the difference between when a cheater was playing and when he wasn\'t :P
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Perhaps you never logged in when the crystal spawning went haywire and hardly anything appeared except for in places where it was seemingly impossible to go.
That said, I feel that what they did helped greatly... The best way to ensure protection, is to have people break through it, and then fix the loophole they used.
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Why dont the devs make a poll to see what more players want? Wouldnt that be the only truly fair thing?
Umm, because this isn\'t a democracy? ;-)
- Vengeance
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Short summary:
1) People cheat.
2) Devs find people who cheat.
3) Devs ban them, unless the people turned themselves in, as it isn\'t a cheat. Then it\'s just a bug report.
4) Cheat gets fixed.
5) No more cheat.
That\'s fair.
If you don\'t like that people cheat, then learn to cheat yourself, and end up getting banned from the game for doing it. :)
And as for what Vengeance said... I couldn\'t have put it better myself.
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If you don\'t like that people cheat, then learn to cheat yourself, and end up getting banned from the game for doing it.
then we all know what we must do! X(
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yes, that is like an invite to cheat and i want a wipe! ppl who cheat have diffrent accounts, and probably gave cheated stuff to those accounts so....its totaly unfair
*and the crowd chants \"wipe MB, wipe MB, wipeMB\"*
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what the hell are you talking about?
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I have a question. How are you going to fix the \'Cheat\'
Wont people just be able to look at it\'s source and then exploit the game?
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Originally posted by Zetsumei_the_Banned
I suppose sports is a good analogy. You want to be the best, at more or less any means necessary.
People who forget that sports isn\'t about winning, but competition; who don\'t go towards success by hard training, but take steroids are simply losers...
So yeah, I think this analogy is quite good. Because in my eyes your actions make you a loser as well...
Originally posted by Zetsumei_the_Banned
There were not, to my knowledge, any punishments or reprimands written down anywhere.
Maybe if you\'d actually read instead of cheating, you might notice that it is written down:
2003.05.15
We just discovered that some players (even amongst the ones that are entitled to get the prizes) have completed the quest with more than one character to get the prize more than one time. This is NOT allowed and is considered cheating. We identified the people doing that, and since it\'s just the first time we will not take any action against that (no prize removal, no public names, no char deletion, etc...). We will simply give the prize to just one of their char. But please remember to play fairly, next time we will take some actions against that.
- Swords
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There is a lesson to be learned form this, we have to know that this is a community, and the actions of one person(or more) will affect everyone eals whether we/they like it or not.
tygerwilde, blue command, zetsumei and a number of people are right on the hacker part(in a way) and besides, Stuff that happens eariler means you don\'t have to deal with it latter, which \"could\" be worse
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Originally posted by Nikolia
I have a question. How are you going to fix the \'Cheat\'
Wont people just be able to look at it\'s source and then exploit the game?
Eh? It\'s like this:
1. Some player compiles PS from source
2. Player enjoys PS and is curious how it works
3. Player plays with PS source and finds a cheating location
After here the outcome can differ
4.1 Player tests the cheat localy ONLY and once sure it\'s exploitable, reports it
5.1 Devs fix it, commit to CVS and updates PS server(s) with the patch
6.1 End of story, server is patched and so on, cheat is gone. I don\'t really get how you where thinking though
Other story
4.2 Player find the exploit, and tests on the public server(s)
5.2 Cheat works, and player doesn\'t turn it in
6.2 Sooner or later, Player will be caught cheating and banned
7.2 Cheat is fixed and applied to the server(s)
Happy end, just a matter of effort and time
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Androgos, while I totaly agree with what you say, if someone finds a cheat then they could wreak the econimy by making tons of Magic swords and dropping them all over the world at once. Magic swords which once where worth 100000000000 tria become worthless. So it isnt always a happy ending,
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Not knowing the law does not release from responsibility...
- Swords
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to watchers statement, sure it would be possible for them to do something like that, but it\'s much easier for the developers to track such movements on their database and delete them from it, as well as removing the player and ban their IP. yes, people will do such things with the intent of harming the game, but at this point they AREN\'T harming the game in the least, because at this point, it\'s NOT a game, it\'s essentially an engine in testing. they NEED people to push every boundary to the breaking point to see to it that there\'s no way to do this in the final game.
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This has vastly strayed from the topic... I think the crystal wipe is sensible because as already stated, not all of the \"corruptible\" cheaters (meaning ones who misused the exploit instead of reporting it).
Also, who cares about crystals, in CB it\'s gonna be about the tria, right? If people spent hundreds of hours searching for worthless items on a beta, then good for them, they should be familiar with the environment of the game and the other players, and hopefully found and reported a bug.
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haven\'t you ever seen a thread hijacking before? :P
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Originally posted by tygerwilde
but at this point they AREN\'T harming the game in the least, because at this point, it\'s NOT a game, it\'s essentially an engine in testing.
However, at the exact point in time at which anything from the testing environment is being transferred to the game, what happened in the testing effectively becomes part of the game in retrospect. So yes, if the crystals are not being wiped, then the MB cheating will have hurt the game.
Originally posted by tygerwilde
they NEED people to push every boundary to the breaking point to see to it that there\'s no way to do this in the final game.
Yes, they need people who report the bugs once they are found and verified. And no, I don\'t think these reporters deserve anything that may be gained from the cheat / exploit. If the devs feel they deserve something, it will come from them. It\'s just like saying the same thing about people who break into your bank account. Do they deserve the money they stole from you, because they \"helped the bank discover a flaw in the system\", since it has been spotted months later, after they had robbed millions of people?
@ Zetsumi: it is common sense not to cheat. There is no way you can\'t have known that (and don\'t start nit-picking like \"it wasn\'t cheating because cheating is...\", you know exactly what I mean.). There is also no need for it to be written down anywhere. If you are one of these people who just go \"it wasn\'t explicitely stated by anyone who has authority\", then I pity you. There is absolutely nothing you can say or do to justify your actions. :tdown:
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Originally posted by Seytra
Originally posted by tygerwilde
but at this point they AREN\'T harming the game in the least, because at this point, it\'s NOT a game, it\'s essentially an engine in testing.
However, at the exact point in time at which anything from the testing environment is being transferred to the game, what happened in the testing effectively becomes part of the game in retrospect. So yes, if the crystals are not being wiped, then the MB cheating will have hurt the game.
Originally posted by tygerwilde
they NEED people to push every boundary to the breaking point to see to it that there\'s no way to do this in the final game.
Yes, they need people who report the bugs once they are found and verified. And no, I don\'t think these reporters deserve anything that may be gained from the cheat / exploit. If the devs feel they deserve something, it will come from them. It\'s just like saying the same thing about people who break into your bank account. Do they deserve the money they stole from you, because they \"helped the bank discover a flaw in the system\", since it has been spotted months later, after they had robbed millions of people?
@ Zetsumi: it is common sense not to cheat. There is no way you can\'t have known that (and don\'t start nit-picking like \"it wasn\'t cheating because cheating is...\", you know exactly what I mean.). There is also no need for it to be written down anywhere. If you are one of these people who just go \"it wasn\'t explicitely stated by anyone who has authority\", then I pity you. There is absolutely nothing you can say or do to justify your actions. :tdown:
i completely agree with you , thus a database wipe would be further justfified as there was no of competely detecting the people who cheated. this will ensure that such actions may be prevented in the future.
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Originally posted by Zetsumei_the_Banned
Banning wasn\'t mentioned, crystal wiping wasn\'t mentioned, etc. True, the devs can do whatever they want and make up things as they go along, it\'s their power and right to do so, but I didn\'t see any punishment, not until after they updated the main site after Psybur\'s source code modification.
Again, consequences were mentioned. On the main site. Just because you didn\'t see it, doesn\'t change anything. You knew what you did was wrong, you were asked to stop it, but you didn\'t.
Devs made a warning. If you didn\'t see it, it\'s your loss. But don\'t say there was none.
- Swords
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The Developers reserve the right as creators of this project to apply which consequences they deem appropriate, without violating the law, at any time, on any user, and for any reason.
Cheaters should have kept this in mind when they joined up.
If exploiting the system, ask yourself: Did you put any work in?...
Planeshift Style of Government: Oligarchy.
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Does anyone else see the irony here?
What Zetsumei and Psybur did (was Zet proven guilty?), would not be a problem if there was no transfer. It seriously would have been a form of testing (or perhaps a bit of fun), reaping no rewards.
The Devs\' choice to have the transfer has made this a problem. Thus, they have made what Zet and Psybur did a problem.
It\'s a very round-about way of thinking, I\'ll admit. But any implications caused by Psybur\'s modification, are the result of the Devs\' decision to transfer crystals into CB.
I do not really excuse Psybur for his modification, but it is the Devs who make this a problem, and I can\'t understand why?
I have one thought on the matter, and to keep the peace, I shall not voice that opinion here; I am too low on the food chain.
Though it seems the only possibility.
Not having a transfer is the only way these \'wrongs\' can be righted, but it\'s not my choice, and I don\'t care.
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Originally posted by Adeli
What Zetsumei and Psybur did (was Zet proven guilty?), would not be a problem if there was no transfer.
Wrong. They screwed with the server, and ruined other people\'s fun. That is a problem.
I didn\'t play during the time they were around, but a few good kicks to the head would have been something I would be tossing around if I had been.
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The majority of people who still log into MB, do not even bother with crystals, so it was a small number affected, but besides, I am talking about the problem of illegal crystals.
They choose to keep all crystals, they are responsible for keeping illegal crystals. This is how I see it.
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Yeah wipe that mofo... wipe it real good.