PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Miya on December 25, 2004, 09:03:52 pm
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I think this has been said before, but I\'d like to say it again, seeing as the quest system hasn\'t changed since MB, that I think the quest system is fundamentally flawed. On the surface, it would seem like a great idea, just talking to npcs to get quests, but in practice it is a nightmare. 99% of the time spent on most quests, even simple ones, is spent figuring out the exact phrase the npc is expecting you to say to continue the quest. I think the challenge of these quests should only be in doing the quest itself, and not figuring out what to say.
You might think that increasing the number of acceptable phrases might aleviate the problem somewhat, but it does not eliminate the fundamental problem. In order to make quests more natural and easier, quest writers need to enumerate through a lot of alternate responces that the npc should accept, and that\'s for each responce expected in a quest. This leads to unnecessary extra work for them, since there might be 5-10 acceptable sentances for each responce, and 2,4, or more responces for each quest. That\'s a lot of writing for just one quest, and the end result is still not the best. There are literally hundreds of ways of saying certain things, so the player will always be playing the guessing game, no matter how many alternate responces you accept.
I would like the developers to seriously consider scrapping the entire quest system as it stands now and replace it with one that does not require random guessing of phrases. There are many alternatives in other games from which to model and expand on. Personally, I would like something similar to the style that Morrowind used, where you\'re provided with general questions to ask a person, and then those choices open up others that you can ask about further. I\'ll give you an example of how it might work for one of Planeshift\'s quests, the script quest between the priest in the temple of laanx and jayose. Starting with the priest, a box comes up with the choices in a box at the bottom and the priest\'s responces in a text box above. You would be able to say \"hello\" \"how are you\" \"tell me about this temple\" \"I would like some work.\" The last choice would lead you to the start of the quest. He\'ll tell you about the scripts and the two choices available would be \"yes\" or \"no\" and if you accept, the quest would be added to your list. Now, when you talk to Jayose, a new option will appear in his list, \"I\'m here to pick up the priest\'s scripts\", at which time he will tell you the price is doubled, and then a new option will appear in the priest\'s list, \"Jayose wants double for the scripts\" etc.. You get the idea. This kind of quest system would make it much much easier to write new quests, and not incredibly fustrating for players.
Anyway, that\'s my opinion. Please post here if you agree with me.
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I love the quest system, at least in MB as I haven\'t done any in CB, it seems to require more word problems then go fetch this and that...though some are as simple as that, others require logic and would be incredibly easy with a selection of comments.
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/signed
I figure the quests are broken in this release or i am not saying the right phrase after collecting some gold ore. Anyways, the developers should not rely on this one sentence \"key\" to unlock or finish the quest as you have pointed out Miya. A quest system like what most rpg\'s have would suffice. Even saying \'hi\' to the NPC which unlocks the dialog to quest, history, or other information is better than the current system. A quick check of the inventory would unlock a different set of dialog if this NPC was a quest-giver.
I believe the system that Miya proposed would allevate much frustation on both parts. One, the player getting the quest would not spend 1 to 2 hours trying to figure out the proper dialog. Two, the forumgoers here would not be frustrated by having to read post such as \'I cant finish , what do i do?!\' several times over.
As Miya said..that is only my opinion.
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Originally posted by Miya
Starting with the priest, a box comes up with the choices in a box at the bottom and the priest\'s responces in a text box above. You would be able to say \"hello\" \"how are you\" \"tell me about this temple\" \"I would like some work.\" The last choice would lead you to the start of the quest. He\'ll tell you about the scripts and the two choices available would be \"yes\" or \"no\" and if you accept, the quest would be added to your list. Now, when you talk to Jayose, a new option will appear in his list, \"I\'m here to pick up the priest\'s scripts\", at which time he will tell you the price is doubled, and then a new option will appear in the priest\'s list, \"Jayose wants double for the scripts\" etc.. You get the idea.
hmm. back in the transition days between the text adventures and the modern point and click ones that was exactly what you propose. it is still used, especially in the console rpg and rpg-ish games.
it takes away some of the challenge of playing an interaction based game, which is what planeshift basically is. it becomes simply a matter of trying each of the limited options until something works.
while i agree that the listening ai could aways use some work. sometimes, the hi needs to be worked on as well.
Anyway, that\'s my opinion. Please post here if you agree with me.
and you\'ll get people who don\'t agree with you as well
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Need to return to Sharven to tell him the prices of the script has been doubled becuase there more parties who wants it, a Talad priest is also interested.
Here is what I tried:
(21:57:09) Rhamous says: hello
(21:57:09) Sharven Xant-Areth tells you: I greet you in the glory of Laanx. Welcome to the temple. Please feel free to mingle about and discover Laanx for yourself. Speak to anyone here about their faith.
(21:57:18) Natrina says: hmm.. any reason why I have funny things under my legs_
(21:57:19) Rhamous says: the prices of the script are doubled
(21:57:19) Sharven Xant-Areth tells you: Terribly sorry, but I don\'t understand you.
(21:57:24) Natrina says: feet..
(21:57:25) Rhamous says: the prices are doubled
(21:57:25) Sharven Xant-Areth tells you: I\'m not sure what it is you\'re trying to say. Can you word it differently?
(21:57:34) Rhamous says: the price has been raised
(21:57:34) Sharven Xant-Areth tells you: I\'m not sure what it is you\'re trying to say. Can you word it differently?
(21:57:40) Rhamous says: do you need help?
(21:57:40) Sharven Xant-Areth tells you: It has come to my attention that Jayose has acquired a lost manuscript of Holy Laanx, found in a rather obscure area of Yliakum. He has offered to sell it to the temple, but I\'ve not yet had the opportunity to obtain it. Would you be so kind as to pick it up for me? The item is already pre-paid.
(21:57:53) Rhamous says: I\'m sorry
(21:57:53) Sharven Xant-Areth tells you: I\'m not sure what it is you\'re trying to say. Can you word it differently?
(21:57:57) Scalp says: where i can find gold?
(21:58:01) Rhamous says: the price of the script
(21:58:01) Sharven Xant-Areth tells you: I\'m not sure what it is you\'re trying to say. Can you word it differently?
(21:58:08) Rhamous says: script
(21:58:08) Sharven Xant-Areth tells you: I\'m sorry, child. Can you rephrase that? These old ears don\'t work as well as they used to.
(21:58:12) Vemper shouts: where can i get a weapon
(21:58:12) Electric shouts: press \\
(21:58:27) Rhamous says: there is another person who want the script
(21:58:27) Sharven Xant-Areth tells you: I\'m not sure what it is you\'re trying to say. Can you word it differently?
(21:58:32) Electric shouts: for autorun lol
(21:58:37) Electric shouts: hi
(21:58:42) Electric shouts: no
(21:58:59) Drussthelegend shouts: Evernite, you there?
(21:59:15) Rhamous says: there more parties who want the script
(21:59:15) Sharven Xant-Areth tells you: Terribly sorry, but I don\'t understand you.
(21:59:23) Rhamous says: the price of the script is double
(21:59:23) Sharven Xant-Areth tells you: I\'m not sure what it is you\'re trying to say. Can you word it differently?
(21:59:29) Rhamous says: price script doubled
(21:59:29) Sharven Xant-Areth tells you: I\'m sorry, child. Can you rephrase that? These old ears don\'t work as well as they used to.
(21:59:36) Rhamous says: script price doubled
(21:59:36) Sharven Xant-Areth tells you: I\'m sorry, child. Can you rephrase that? These old ears don\'t work as well as they used to.
(21:59:42) Rhamous says: double price for script
(21:59:42) Sharven Xant-Areth tells you: Terribly sorry, but I don\'t understand you.
(21:59:50) Rhamous says: a priest also want script
(21:59:50) Sharven Xant-Areth tells you: Terribly sorry, but I don\'t understand you.
(21:59:57) Rhamous says: need help?
(21:59:57) Sharven Xant-Areth tells you: I\'m not sure what it is you\'re trying to say. Can you word it differently?
(22:00:01) Rhamous says: do you need help?
(22:00:01) Sharven Xant-Areth tells you: It has come to my attention that Jayose has acquired a lost manuscript of Holy Laanx, found in a rather obscure area of Yliakum. He has offered to sell it to the temple, but I\'ve not yet had the opportunity to obtain it. Would you be so kind as to pick it up for me? The item is already pre-paid.
(22:00:09) Rhamous says: sure
(22:00:09) Sharven Xant-Areth tells you: Ah, splendid! Jayose\'s Library is nearby, so it shouldn\'t be too difficult, although Jayose himself has been known to be, if you get my meaning. Please return to me when you have the Script.
(22:00:19) Daros says: what this npc does?
(22:00:21) Electric shouts: the other one?
(22:00:33) Electric shouts: ?
(22:00:42) Rhamous says: I dont have the script
(22:00:42) Sharven Xant-Areth tells you: I\'m sorry, child. Can you rephrase that? These old ears don\'t work as well as they used to.
(22:00:48) Rhamous says: the price is not enough
(22:00:48) Sharven Xant-Areth tells you: I\'m sorry, child. Can you rephrase that? These old ears don\'t work as well as they used to.
(22:00:51) Rhamous says: need more money
(22:00:51) Sharven Xant-Areth tells you: I\'m not sure what it is you\'re trying to say. Can you word it differently?
(22:01:16) Rhamous shouts: quests suck, I need to tell something to someone but dont know how to say it presisely
(22:01:16) Sharven Xant-Areth tells you: I\'m not sure what it is you\'re trying to say. Can you word it differently?
(22:01:59) Natrina says: r..
(22:02:00) Kaea says: Shift key, hun
(22:02:58) Rhamous says: a priest of Talad also want the script
(22:02:58) Sharven Xant-Areth tells you: I\'m sorry, child. Can you rephrase that? These old ears don\'t work as well as they used to.
(22:03:01) Cyperoh says: oh, shift, thaks for help
(22:03:33) Rhamous says: I\'m sorry but the price of the script you want from the library has been doubled, thats what Jayose told me
(22:03:33) Sharven Xant-Areth tells you: I\'m sorry, child. Can you rephrase that? These old ears don\'t work as well as they used to.
(22:03:39) Rhamous says: Jayose told the prices doubled
(22:03:39) Sharven Xant-Areth tells you: I\'m sorry, child. Can you rephrase that? These old ears don\'t work as well as they used to.
(22:03:51) Rhamous says: Jayose told me that the price of the manuscript has been douled
(22:03:51) Sharven Xant-Areth tells you: I\'m sorry, child. Can you rephrase that? These old ears don\'t work as well as they used to.
(22:04:06) Rhamous says: The price of the script has been doubled said Jayose
(22:04:06) Sharven Xant-Areth tells you: I\'m sorry, child. Can you rephrase that? These old ears don\'t work as well as they used to.
(22:04:42) Rhamous shouts: I need to return a script to Sharven, but I nee to tell him the prices are doubled, but he dont know wat I\'m saying
(22:04:47) Rhamous shouts: what do I need to tell him??
(22:05:01) Rhamous shouts: Does he only speaks spanish or something???
(22:05:37) Rhamous says: hello
(22:05:37) Sharven Xant-Areth tells you: I greet you in the glory of Laanx. Welcome to the temple. Please feel free to mingle about and discover Laanx for yourself. Speak to anyone here about their faith.
(22:06:00) Rhamous says: The price of the script has been doubled
(22:06:00) Sharven Xant-Areth tells you: Terribly sorry, but I don\'t understand you.
(22:07:52) Mordaan shouts: \"You fell off the end of the world and died\" ?
(22:08:44) Rhamous says: hello
ETC. ETC. ETC.
So yeah, I spened like 1 hour on guessing what I need to say while the only thing I did for the quest was walkiing to Jayoses library, say something and go back. costed like 3 minutes (20 seconds ewalking and 1.40 seconds gueesing what I needed to say there).
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what about a system like this :
no fixed choices, but no need to write the exact sentence to get the quest , instead the npc script will recognise some key words needed and act consequently.. for examplethe priest could react to the words price, double, doubled, script, talad priest, and things like these..it will not assure accuracy , but will surely prevent frustration and still avoids fixed choices
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Originally posted by Distruzione_di_Massa
what about a system like this :
no fixed choices, but no need to write the exact sentence to get the quest , instead the npc script will recognise some key words needed and act consequently.. for examplethe priest could react to the words price, double, doubled, script, talad priest, and things like these..it will not assure accuracy , but will surely prevent frustration and still avoids fixed choices
That\'s what it\'s doing atm.
The \"AI\" works like this:
There are a set of predefined \"synonyms\", like:
how are you?
nice to meet you
and so on
All those are replaced with hi
Same goes for quests:
\"Do you have any quests?\" = \"have quest\"
\"I would like a quest\" = \"give me quest\"
When a NPC doesn\'t get what the player is saying, it\'s added to a list which the we\'re checking and improving the NPCs with commonly asked phrases
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Originally posted by steuben
it takes away some of the challenge of playing an interaction based game, which is what planeshift basically is. it becomes simply a matter of trying each of the limited options until something works.
while i agree that the listening ai could aways use some work. sometimes, the hi needs to be worked on as well.
The reason I picked that particular quest system is because of its similarity to Planeshift\'s, with the one difference being that the player needs to type out the response, and is not allowed to see the list. So the only difference between that system and the current system is that the player is now required to guess the phrase that the npc wants. This is not an improvement in my opinion. As I said before, there are sometimes hundreds of ways of saying one thing, so with planeshift\'s current system players, even if they know precisely what they need to do in the quest, may never finish it because they can\'t guess the exact phrase that the quest writer is looking for. As seen on the forums and with people shouting in game asking for help with quests, this happens a LOT. Now, you try putting a quest up that actually has some challenge to it, that requires some actual thinking, and the quest becomes near impossible, because not only do you have to figure out what to do, you have to figure out what to say once you do.
You complain that quests would become too easy. Well first of all some quests should be easy but aren\'t with the current system. Second of all, just because something is difficult, does not make it fun. Sure you might be masochistic and enjoy figuring out 30 or 40 ways of saying \"Jayose wants double the money for the script\" (that doesn\'t work in game btw) until you find the exact one the quest writer wanted, but I certainly don\'t.
Second of all, just because you have the responses listed, does not mean that all quests automatically become easy. I chose to talk about the quest style in morrowind because unlike other systems, like the one in World of Warcraft, this one does allow for a great deal of flexibility, originality, and challenge. I\'ll give you an example of a quest that could easily be done with this system, but completely infeasible with Planeshift\'s. Let\'s say the captain of the guards wants you to investigate a murder. Basically you do this by talking to various people in town, with clues scattered everywhere, and questions you ask one npc lead to new responses in others, and perhaps even open up some interaction with objects in the world (\"clues scattered on the crime scene\"). Some of the npc\'s would need encouragement to talk - money, intimidation, etc.. there might be a few ways to find out the truth. This quest would be very interesting, require interaction with lots of npcs and lots of dialog, and with the system I described, would flow naturally. The challenge would be in finding the clues. Now, with the current planeshift system, it would be nearly impossible to do. In planeshift it is difficult to complete even the simple starting messenger tasks because it is difficult to figure out how to say what you want to say.
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Originally posted by Androgos
When a NPC doesn\'t get what the player is saying, it\'s added to a list which the we\'re checking and improving the NPCs with commonly asked phrases
i think the problem is with phrases... many single words are more easily written even than 2 fixed words in sequence. i don\'t know if i0m expressing correctly, but for example the IA could consider the word \"quest\" and one taken from the following \"give\" \"have\" \"want\" \"search\".. it will cover by far more possibilities than a system based on \"have quest\" \"give me quest\", if i understood correctly what you said before
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I completely agree, this system HAS to be changed. It\'s driving me absolutely insane trying to figure out which NPCs even have quests to give me. =(
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I agree and disagree, personally i have completed the Sharven - Jayose quest.
Yes i did take around 30min to do it and nearly all that time i used trying to figure out what sharven want to hear, BTW i think Sharvens AI might be broke due to the fact that the words i ended up using had been in other sentences that didnt get picked up, like fx (these are not the phrases i used but it paints a picture) i would have said \"Jayose has doubled the scripts price\" which just provoked the normal \"eh?\" respons, while i ended up using something like (and again i didnt use this phrase) \"double price\".
I have read that the AI should have been made to respond to phrase that could be used by and would be understood by real people though in this case it clearly did not do that.
I dont like this quest due to that error in Sharven\'s understanding of english but i really like the concept of the quest system and i think they should keep it, due to the fact that i have always disliked the non-personality of the NPC\'s in all other games, i like the fact that the NPC\'s in this game can be spoken back to (even though they dont always get it), like in MB you could say to an NPC \"are you stupid\" and they would say \"for an alpha i think i am pretty smart\" or something like that or you could start insulting then for fun and they would say \"insults is not a good way to get information from people\" (BTW Androgos if you guys see somebody insulting the NPC\'s it could be me ;) i do that alot especially when they dont accept what i tell them)
Overall i think they should keep the current quest system but make it easier to hit the right phrase but still keep it so you cant just say \"price\" and the quest will move on.
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i dont like it, since i dont know how many minutes i want to give Jayose this scroll of Emmissary (wich is invisible in the window..) but he doesent want it!
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The scroll giving is a bug. The NPC\'s dosnt accept items when given in the normal way you have to type /give and use the window that comes up.
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Yes, and if you received money, the system message don\'t tell you how much...
\"You received some money\" -> \"You received xxx trias\"
I found also a minor bug: say \"hello\" to Brintec Dev-onni, and you see \"$playerrace\" in the dialog.
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A further flaw to this whole phrase thing is the fact that not everyone is natural englishmen. To force a specific phrase [like the sharven one which i STILL can not solve after an HOUR] which i assume only born english people will get right is absurd [because there\'s only THAT many versions of the sentence i can dream up] . I played king\'s quest/space quest/hero\'s quest [the text based ones] without having any problem with phrases.....yet you had to type everything in it, so why am i struggling now?
The difference? the NPC response was triggered by certain keywords REGARDLESS of how it\'s used in the sentence. I.e \"ask quest\" = \"i need quest\" = \"give me information about a quest\" = \"i need to know about your super special quests\". In other words, you could type a paragraph with certain words in it and it\'ll trigger the same response as if you typed 2 words. Most of the classic sierra quests ran on basic commands which you typed first i.e. \"talk about aliens\" would initiate whatever information the NPC would have regarding aliens. Then you would continue the convo by going \"talk about blue aliens\" . Almost everything could be triggered with a single keyword [at most 3 keywords]. Only in special cases [like passwords] it would need more.
In Jayose-Sharven quest it will boil down to this:
\"talk about quest\" -> sharven initiates quest response
\"talk about script\" -> sharven gives info about it
\" say yes\" -> accepts quest
at jayose:
\"talk about script \" --> jayose initiates script response
at sharvfen:
\"talk about script\" --> will initiate the initial info about the script again
\"talk about script price\" --> will initiate the doubled price response.
In the end, it\'s not required to make things complicated. If the NPC have more quests, you refine it to
\"talk about sharven script\" when at jayose etc etc.
So it\'s not expected of the player to repeat an entire sentence, it\'s assumed the quest-giving NPC can complete the sentence with 2 or 3 keywords. [\"price doubled\" or \"doubled price\" in ANY sentence should trigger sharven no matter what].
In planeshift terms:
/say doubled price --> should be enough
/say jaysone has doubled the price of the stupid scroll --> should also trigger simply because the words \'doubled\' and \'price\' is in the sentence.
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I got the phrase to tell Sharven about doubling the money on the first try. But I cannot figure out how to tell Jayose about the notice of payment.
I\'ve tried anything from the simple \"money\" to \"Here is Shavrens money he accepts the payment and wishes you many more confusing transactions in which you annoy players as much as me.\"
Oh Well.
Back to finding those magical words.
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its easier to resolve most ridles than finding the trigger :D
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I might as well agree as well, the current quest system (don\'t mean to offend or anything) but it down right SUCKS!, never have I seen such a cluncky and frustrating quest system, almost seems like you put less than a halfed *** effort into it in it\'s current state. I know its a lot of work already but its just awful to use and looks bad to many players who don\'t understand this stuff that well. I built a entire world and everything in morrowind and I know how aweful Dialog can be to be messing around in, but this is so far \"unacceptable\" as a quest system for beta porpouses it can remain like it is for more important things to get done first like game/server stability and fixing the millions of bugs it holds.
For the mean time I think there should be a open list for the commands, at least we will have half an idea of what to say instead of spending half the playing time talking to a single NPC.
There I\'ve basicly just resaid everything already said above. lol
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Not much to be said. I fully agree with Miya way of thinking about quest.
With current quest system it is real pain. I\'d like to do this what i\'m asked for, not guesing what to say.
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I agree, it says everywhere that the game is supposed to be immersive. However to me it is the complete opposite of immersive when my character and every other player character doesn\'t even speak the same language as the NPC\'s and the NPC\'s can\'t understand simple statements.
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Well I havent had any problems with the quest system.Yes I did get aggravated at some of the responses but in all they went smoothly.Sometimes it takes a simple phrase as opposed to a whole sentence.Right now you still have to treat the NPCs like they are stupid and everyone that played any of the quests in MB knows how to do it and complete them.Just ask any of your guildmates or even a friendly MB player for some hints. BTW i have found 5 quests and 4 worked perfectly.Only one had a bug dealing with items being traded which the devs know about.
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Yeah i agree that something needs to be done too. Im not a big player of these sorts of games to begin with so my questing ability probably isnt as good as others on here but i find it very hard to do the quests. On the lamp oil quest for the librarian (which i lost 200 tria on aswell :( ) I actually talked to the guy who has the falka but i didnt know the exact phrase to use and so thought i was just talking to the wrong person. I then asked another player if he could point me in the right direction and he kindly told me who i was supposed to be talking to but even then i dont know if i could have got the phrase on my own. It just seems that the speaking to NPCs is very contrived (is that the right word?) at the moment.
Using the system Miya propsed probably would make the quests easier but it would probably make them more fun aswell.
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well the system would work very nicely if the NPC told us what to say to teh next one for the quest so we don\'t geuss for hours. if we knew what the heyl to say it wouldn\'t be bad at all. Personaly the Morrowind system Miya suggested was not fun at all, I did not like it, it felt very fake and totaly unimmersive, the Morrowind dialog system was very powerful but it was not fun to read and use as it doesn\'t even feel like your talking to that person. But currently without a list of the commands for the quests the Morrowind dialog would be far better.
I say when talking to them (Like we currently do) there should be a update in the quest journal telling you the phrase to use when talking to that certain NPC. That would simplify everything and save a lot of work on the Admins\' hands.
Currently I haven\'t completed any quests cause of the hours of guessing needing to be done, I\'m usually a patient person but this fustrating stuff can even tick me off quite badly. So the quest system isn\'t that bad it just needs to tell you what to say to be any good otherwise yes it does suck.
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Heya.
I\'m only using the morrowind system as an *example* of what could be done instead. There are lots of other quest systems, and we could even do a hybrid one that still has players talking directly to npcs, as long as it doesn\'t require guessing magic phrases.
Really the issue at heart is that the difficulty in doing quests currently is COMPLETELY in guessing the magic words the npc\'s want to hear. It takes a couple minutes to do the quest, and HOURS to figure out the magic words. Sure some people guess right the first time, but most players I think are having an extremely hard time with it. Adding more phrases that the npc\'s understand is not only time consuming for the developers, it doesn\'t solve the problem and never will. It will only make it slightly easier. It\'s still a guessing game, with lots and lots and lots of potential answers (seriously, over a hundred in many cases).
One interesting alternative that I had in mind was using a real natural language processor library like A.L.I.C.E. that had special databases for quests. Not only would this make it far easier to recognize player responses as valid (even if they aren\'t exactly like what the quest writer thought of) but npc\'s would seem to talk more fluidly, maybe even have full \"conversations\" with players. Now THAT would be interesting to see!
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There\'s no point talking about Morrowind chat systems. It\'s all been said before, and the developers are not going to change their system. Please be patient, and wait for the AI to improve. It will not always be so frustrating.
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It really is nice to know what we say to the NPCs is logged when they don\'t understand us, I\'ll use it to polish certain phrases and language characterisations, after all you don\'t expect a gentleman to talk like everybody else do you ? It would not be sensible.
Just one remark, wouldn\'t it be sensible to allow for single word recognition to simplify the system.
For exemple :
\"My greetings dear sir\" would be checked for single words and translated automaticaly as \"greetings\" which would amount to \"hi\"
Of course the system would be limited to adjacent words to limit the required time for analysis but it would already extend the number of phrases by quite a bit as common words used to embellish a phrase would not change it\'s signification.
Thus :
\"Arghhhh Matey I greet you\"
\"I greet you kind sir\"
\"per chance we meet but I greet you nevertheless\"
would all be equal even though used in three different characterisations.
Just to say that I\'m a bit tired of using phrases like \"you give quest me\" even though this has evolved a bit.