PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: Idealist on June 28, 2002, 06:52:00 am
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I have noticed that all the races on planeshift are about the same on every mmorpg i have a suggestion on this Instead of doing the same i say you add a different race something that hasent really been tammperd with
I say something along the lines of a more developed (not technologicaly just mentaly) phyonic race... i keep hearing about mages and knights but it would be refreashing to see a compleatly new set of skills like telepathy witch would be good for reading npc thoughts not player thoughts. also this new race of people would have the ability just like all the others to train there skills for instance one could train there combat skills in the arts of phsyco kenises also called telekenisis (the abbility to lift or throw things with the mind for all my n00bers to the subject) while another person could train there mind in the direction twards pryo kenisis (witch is the abbility to set things on fire with the mind) I know i do sound crazy at times on this board but this is one time that i think you should listen to me
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Ugh! I HATE Stephen King for that, alone. He\'s pretty cool otherwise, but...
Pyrokenesis would be moving things with fire, NOT setting things on fire with your mind. That would be Telepyrosis, or some such thing... Not quite certain...
As for psyonics, I like the idea, but I think that the developement team kinda has things planned out regarding the basic functionality regarding this stuff, and I don\'t think that made it in... I don\'t know if it\'s all set in stone, but we should also avoid making it all too complicated...
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You started speaking of races and then ended up talking about professions/skills/classes.
About races we have the basic set of common races: elves, humans, dwarves, plus we have a lot of new races, like kran, diaboli, lemur, enkidukai.
About skills our martial artists schools will be similar to psionic powers, so probably that can satisfy your request.
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thank you for the 101 in phsyonics Yes I did get that from Stephen King lol
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Tis always bad to hear words like that. By all means a Phsyonic ability would be a most lovely skill to have but to say a martial art school would teach it, that would do more harm than good. Martial arts are a sacred thing to many souls. They are already shrouded in mistery and misconception. If you add this misconception to this world then you will do more damage to this fine art. In martial arts there is a mental aspect to it but as for using your mind to cause attacks is simply a missunderstanding. The mind has to be focussed on the task the body is doing and this focuss will intencify the person\'s strength and range. To put this phsyonic ability to the martial artists of this world will surely do nothing more than anger many of the peole who perform martial arts with a passion.
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stawart....these people who pratice martial arts need to keep in mind that this is a game, noone is trying ot mock what they do im sure.
if they are so immature to throw a fit over this, then let them.
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Ah the soft words of \"this is only a game.\" If one was to have a game and base it on a race of black humans that are nothing more than slaves to another race of humans, do you not think that termoil would come from that? Of corce it is but a game but does that make it OK to do what you would with things that can be attached to real life? If you make a judgment, be it game or not, towards a group of people, expect that group of people to react. You cannot use \"it is only a game\" as a defence for demoralizing a sect of people.
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noone means to demorlize people tho man. u seem a bit worked up and im sorry if i had angered u. noone is making any slaves, did people get upset that the guys in mortal kombat could turn into animals? i didn thear anything about it. or shoot things from thier hands...was what they did NOT martial arts?
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Mortal Kombat is a bad example cause it wasn\'t martial arts. It was a sci fi action movie. Though some had martial arts training it wasn\'t th3e art that allowed them to morph into animals or shoot things from their hands. That was magic that did that. It was a sci fi fantacy that combinded fighting with magic and was not considered a martial arts movie or even a martial arts game for that matter. For examples of martial arts movies take a look at a few of Jacky Chan\'s older movies like Drunken Master. Not the one that was released a few years back but the original one from long ago. For a martial arts game look at Virtual Fighter or even Tekken to an extent. Tekken gets a bit more medaphisical than Virtual Fighter but the moves and concepts come from true styles.
Mortal Kombat, like Street Fighter, have never claimed to be martial arts games but simply called themselves fighting games. The thing is when you place the term martial arts on something you have standards to uphold. If you go against those standards you are showing disrespect and are insulting the art.
Basicly in the end if these forms of skills are going to be used then call them Phsyonic and not martial arts.
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I disagree on mortal combat, for one The monks believed once you died you turned into your true form a went above the heavens. You could be right about the fire balls and stuff but i know Lu Kangs attack the Dragon looking beam wasnt that was a fighting type of skill i mean look at him when he does it he goes into a Tai Chi/Kung Fu form.
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OK though a talk about Mortal Kombat is way off topic I felt I should respond to that last post. Yes Lu was said to be a monk of shaolin but he had no powers till the god Raiden granted them for the defence of the earth realm. Raiden had a soft spot for humans and felt they were outmatched by Outworld warriors so not only did he compete in the Mortal Kombat but also granted the earth realm fighters special powers. Back when the Mortal Kombat was only on earth and didnt involve Outworld, It was simply a martial arts compotition. This is the compotition that Kung Lau, ancestor to Lu Kang, raigned. Thats when Shang Sun(sp) was sent to earth with Motaro(sp) to claim the ternament and make change it to be the deffence of the realms as it is in modern Mortal Kombat as we see today.
So no it isn\'t the martial arts that allowed them to shoot energy beams, it was the magic granted to them by a god to balance the tides of earth and Outworld, as were the animalities. This reason is why Raiden was only in the one realm deffence Mortal Kombat cause him granting the humans these powers was seen as an interfearence from the way the tournament was ment to go. They were ment to fight as is and not enhanced in any way that they couldn\'t do on their own. So he was banned from ever enterfearing again but the damage had been done. The humans now possesed a new power, again that had nothing to do with martial arts.
Lastly the Monks of shaolin didn\'t believe you came back after death in your true form but that life was eternal. When you died in one form you were reincarnated. It is a common Zen Budist thought that life is an eternal energy that never dies. Though a body dies the energy that gave it life goes on and is reborn in a new body. This new body could be anything from a bug to an ox. This is why most all monks will never step on a bug or kill a rodent. That bug or rodent might just be their ancestor reincarnated.
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Yea forget what i said thining of the gods of wind, fire, water, and earth make it a Sci fi/adventure :D
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Ah, the debate of martial arts, and what they should be, and how they should be represented.
Just to make this clear, Martial Arts, means the art of being a warrior, or the art of war. Popular culture has twisted this to mean unarmed combat, or more particularly, traditional Asian combat.
By martial artists schools, Talad was referring to our monk schools, The best way to describe them would be to say that they are classical Fantasy Monks, at a certain point they take a vow of poverty, and make great sacrifices to gain ?enlightenment? this is best explained in that they feel that body and mind are one in the same, greater toning of the body leads to better toning of the mind and visa-versa. Dependant on the school the powers manifest in different ways. Some externally, some internally.
The big difference will be that the magic some of them wield, will not be as the other magic in Planeshift. It will be more along the Psionic type of magic/power/whatever you want to call it.
Now to say this is an affront to Martial artist?would be saying that the term Martial artist is an affront, or that a person who specializes in Western Swordsmanship is not a Martial Artist.
As such, all the characters in Planeshift will have the chance to be Martial Artists?they can all specialize in the art of combat, of one nature or another.
Something else to point out is that in the Planeshift world all things will have access to magic of one sort or another, as all things in Planeshift are magical.
How would a shaolin (sp?) monk, be in a world that was all magical? I believe he would magical?and in fact he would probably manifest some magical ability. Why do I say such a thing? Well I say it because almost everyone in this world will manifest some magical ability, why not the shaolin monk?
And as for offending people who practice Asian Martial Arts, I did not see picket sings at ?Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon? in fact some of my friends and my niece, who all practice Asian Martial Arts seemed to really enjoy the movie. And now own the DVD.
How was what was portrayed in that movie hurt ?Real Martial Arts?. It is like saying Paintball puts real life combat in a poor light.
In short (something I always fail in doing) I think you are overly protective of what is your concept of Martial Arts, and I think you feel it?s reputation is too frail for it to be made entertaining with some embellishment. Do you feel as strongly about car games such as Crazy Taxi, and about the life of a criminal in games such as Grand Theft Auto 3?
This game Like all others is about entertainment, our approach is through a role playing game?it will not be a fighting game, nor will it be a first person shooter?so the classical kung-fu type will not get a plethora of special moves by pressing Ctrl+Shift+a he will get some special attacks by pressing a button on his GUI interface and depending on your path?you might get a spell type effect or two.
If this is too much of a step in the Fantastic, I suggest you not play any Fantasy Games because almost everyone of them fails to display the horrors of Combat and has people shooting lighting bolts out of their hands?and to date, I have never seen that in Real Life.
-Paxx
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The thing here that is the problem is that you call it martial arts. No martial arts is not the art of war and souly just unarmed combat. Martial means militant and goes to how the arts are practiced. Though they are used in fighting you aren\'t practicing for war. The martial of arts is tyhe dedication, disciplin, and uniformity used to practice what is called a science if you do a style of Jutsu.
To the art of mind and body you are missing one part left, the spirit. Also you take the mind part out of context. It isn\'t taking the mind to the point of being able to move things with thought. It is more that you expand the ind to the knowledge that is inside the arts. There is much intilectual aspects to the arts that have to be understood. There are pressure point, meridians, healing aspects, and autonamics that all have to be learned. The mind is to be used for understanding not psionics. There is more to the mind aspect but too much to place in a single post.
Now if you would like to talk about Croutching Tiger Hidden Dragon, it as Mortal Kombat is not a movie of martial arts. It had nothing to do with martial arts what so ever and never said it had anything based on martial arts. The movie was a drama slash love story and claimed to be nothing more.
This is the issue at hand, all these examples given to things martial artists have had no problem with have all been things not claiming to be martial arts. Just like the example of the fantasy monks of other RPGs they too never claimed to be martial artists but had a mystical aspect of their training granting them special powers. This game has directly titled their skill as martial arts and in doing so has brought itself under fire. Now if they were to call it by any other name that would be different but they are claiming them to be something that exists in real life and is highly controversial. Call it psionics or templarism but just don\'t call it martial arts or it can be taken as offencive to the martial art community.
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I am sorry but I agree with Paxx.
Martial means relative to war, it comes from the roman war god Mars.
Militant means \'who fights\', it comes from milis, soldier in latin.
The fact that the Asian martial arts community calls itself just \'martial arts community\' is perfectly abusive. It can be accepted in Asia, logically, but not in the rest of the world, where traditional ways of fight are not those of what you call \'martial arts\'.
Then, considering that the world of Yliakum is not Asia, I can not see why its way of war could not be called martial arts just because it is not an asian way of war.
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Not all martial arts are asian. There are several arts that have nothing to do with Asia. There is the French art of Silat(sp) pronounced like su-va\'t, Pancrais is I believe is Euro in origin, there is Greko Roman Wrestling from Rome (go figure), and capoara(sp) from originaly Africa but is most popular in Brazil from where the African slaves were held. Those arts were not influenced by Asia in any way and are indiginous to their countries but are still held under the term martial arts cause there is disciplin and other things involved in their training. In other words they train not only to fight but to strengthen the mind and spirit as well and take dedication and understanding to learn.
Just a note, there is other non Asian martial arts that have nothing to do with open handed fighting, one of them being Fencing. See in that example it shows martial is not the \'of war\' people think it to be as Fencing is still practiced today as a martial art but no one fights with a foil anymore. So they are not training for war but training militantly.
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It\'s CapoEIra =)
And u are right about martial arts. Ppl relates them too much with the Asia
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OK! Then you finally agree!
But I still can\'t understand what do you call \'militant\'. My diccos define it as \'sb who fight for political ideas or changes\'.
Anyway, now you say that \'martial arts\' are arts which have been developped for combat and war, even if some have evolved, and which train body, spirit and mind.
Why don\'t you accept then that in Yliakum, a world where magic exists, martial arts include the control of that magic through the training of mind, spirit and body? Because I can\'t see where that art doesn\'t fit with your definition.
I think we should stop that sterile conversation anyway. Things are what they are, and I have the feeling we all defend different positions with the same arguments.
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Is it really bloody matter? Let us just think of it like this. Planeshift is another world and therefore we are only translating their language into our own. Therefore there is some loss in it. Therefore because we lack the wording to explain the type of fighting style that they do (involving magic and powers, etc.), we fall back to martial arts which incorporates all of their notions. Better?
How about in their society they speak English (or whatever other language) by sheer coincidence. In their world the notion of \"martial arts\" means to them the powers and abilities and magic that is involved with their fighting styles. Who are we to debate with them about their own language?
How about there are infinite universes and one of them is a parallel of Earth which has all of these races, etc. In their world, in which they speak our languages, martial arts refers to that (as stated above).
Happy? Just think of the fact that they are in another world and we should never, ever condemn their ways. Right, right?
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Im glad that u set that straight leodinus because i was trying to say somethig but i could not put it in to words but u did a lot better than i could have done, thats not saying much, but you did really great. :]
May your journeys be unique and violent.
(http://www.guildtools.net/cgi-bin/sigs/116/deathscythe8.jpg)
OutKast Tha Profet
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So from what you are saying, if there is only one way to translate from one world to another, and that way is offencive to a group of people, then it shouldn\'t matter that it is offencive to be translated that way. Say if there was a word in the PlaneShift world that could only be translated as a racial remark in english, IE the N-word, do you think they should continue to use that term or rename it? Of cource you would have to rename it. I use that example simply cvause it is more at home to many of the world. Just cause there are few here to stand up for the integrity of the martial arts world doesn\'t mean they should be treated any less. So saying just cause it could be translated to english in that way doesn\'t mean it has to be called that.
Take for example Futebol, it is called Soccer in the states simply cause the name sounded too much like football. Football is a sport the states already had so they had to change the name to suit their aspects. Same can be said in this matter. Since we in this world have a definition of what martial arts is, we would not keep the translation of these skills as martial arts. We would rename them so not to confuse the two. So though maybe ion the PS language the words used to describe their skills would be martial arts, we would look at them and in our language call them something else, IE psionics.
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Staw...you only put forward an answer to one of my answers, not the 2nd and 3rd. These are still valid. Conclusion? GET OVER IT!!! Bloody hell, soon the people who are for the rights of seaweed are goin\' to post next. Talkin\' about how the seaweed is oppressed by the Nol.
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I don\'t have a strong opinion of what constitutes a \"martial art\" in Yliakum and what does not. However, I am strongly against random groups appropriating innocuous standard English terms as their own and becoming offended whenever someone uses the terms in a way that is not in 100% agreement with their own definition.
Whether this is born-again Christians scoffing at other people being called \"Christians\" saying they aren\'t \"real Christians\", or people into martial arts saying that Yliakum\'s martial arts are offensive to them, they are equally ridiculous positions to hold. The comparison of \"the N word\" to the fantasy extension of the meaning of the term \"Martial Arts\" is ludicrous and doesn\'t deserve comment, so I won\'t.
I think everyone should chill and worry about something more important, like saving the whale or something.
- Vengeance
(p.s. now half expecting to hear from the National Vengeance Society who has hurt feelings because I am using their cause in a frivolous way with my nickname.)
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The connection to the N-word was just an example of why just cause it is the only word that something could be translated to in your language, you wouldn\'t use it. I wasn\'t saying that PS\'s use of the term martial arts was like using the N-word, was just making an example.
That was a good example you put forth on the \'christians\'. I was just thinking the tramma that would come if that term were to be used in PS. The connection here is that martial arts is considered a religion by many. If you tamper with it that is offensive just as if christianity would have been messed with. In so many ways religion and martial arts are commonalities. At one time all forms of martial arts were gathered into a single form, much like religion was. Over the years people came around and took only the parts of the form that they liked. This is much like how some people haven taken a single passage of the bible and made it into a religion. Well some people take a single aspect of the one art and made another form of it completely. An example of this can be seen in TKD where they specialize mostly on the kicking aspect, Judo where they specialize mostly in the grappling aspect, and USA kempo where they mostly specialize in the pressure point aspect. Though now all these are stiles to themselves, they were all once a single form. The same can be said of religion. Once there was just one and now there are new ones popping up all over the world and every day.
So in that way making the connection of christianity and martial arts is a good one. The fact of the matter is that, like christianity, martial arts has become an entity of its own. No longer is it just a term but it is a group with regulations and standards. So by using the term of martial arts you can be said to be refering to this organization. So you can expect the organization to respond when their name is taken out of text.
I still see it funny that just cause some people are not too familiar with the martial arts community that they decide to not recognize it. So rules that aply to other groups just somehow don\'t apply to them. I myself find that very biased and again could be taken as offensive to the martial arts community. This in that not only does PS not mind taking liberties with their terminology but also that when someone just happens to mention that it could be taken as offencive, PS ignors it and turns their back to the possible problem.
I know you can\'t please all the people all the time and you can\'t even please half the people half the time but to completely ignor a possible issue do to the lack of understanding what an organization has gone through to protect their integrity as an organization is just wrong. For so long the world of martial arts has been trying to right all the misconceptions the world has made about them. Tried hard to take the trickery and so called magic out. For hundreds of years they have fought for understanding that what they do is not the things of makebelieve, they can\'t through fireballs, they cannot move things with their mind, they cannot fly, and they are not supernatural. They are just training that brings out the best of a person physicly, mentaly, and spiritualy. So to have PS call this magic mind ability, martial arts coould and probably will be taken as offencive to the martial arts community. To just ignor that possibility or to say tough luck, well thats just narrow mindedness. I feel there is a real issue that could come of this and it is best to keep that in mind when you use a term or name that can be related to a real life group or organization.
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Being upset about Yliakum\'s definition of its three martial arts is like Olympic track & field athletes boycotting because the Olympics thinks that figure skating is a \"sport\".
The whole notion of people viewing martial arts as a religion seems very strange to me, but if so, so be it. The fact is that I disagree with born-again Christians who routinely get upset when new religions are invented for fantasy games. How is defining new gods and new religions less offensive than defining new martial arts?
Forgive me if I\'m being insensitive, but I think you are being oversensitive.
- Vengeance
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I agree with Veng. It is called decaf! Bloody hell I wish people would stop whining just because everything isn\'t exactly how they want it.
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Idealist: Actually, that was Latin 101, not Psyonics 101 :P
-kinesis and kinetic come from the same root, meaning motion;
pyro means fire, as I\'m sure you\'re aware; and tele means remote, like teleportation.
Stawert: How is attributing more power to a group than they actually posess \"demoralizing\" them? Besides which, how many people honestly believe that real life martial artists use psyonic abilities or whatever? Not many people. It\'s just a fun fantasy. We watch DBZ or whatever, and we know it\'s not real, but that doesn\'t mean it can\'t be fun. In the same manner, real life clerics can\'t cast spells. Is it wrong to give them such powers within the context of a game? Your parallel to racism is not justified, as it\'s an entirely different kind of group. People join it by choice, and most of them BECAUSE of that mystique, at least most I know. Not because they actually think it\'ll give them special powers, but because it\'s cool in part because of it\'s association with that. Plus, everyone has seen that martial arts can allow you to do things that most people can\'t. The only thing is it\'s not actually supernatural, but that\'s kind of just an exageration of what\'s actually there. Basically, it\'s a fantasy game. We have to use some aspects of reality so that people can relate to it, and we have to make some portions up, otherwise it wouldn\'t be fantasy. If you really can\'t live with that, go play another game. I doubt very many others feel the way you do.
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David,
I see where Stawert is going with this but I don\'t believe it is an opinion of his own but more of something that he can see that might offend some people. I know Stawert quite well and he isn\'t even a martial artist at all, but I am. I see what he is implying here about this mystical power thing then calling it martial arts. It is something that I see far too often from day to day.
Almost every magazine of the martial arts you will find advertisements for instruction in the martial arts and they list crazy skills like levitation, being able to knock someone out without touching them, moving objects with your chi, ki, or qi depending on what dialect you use; and other outlandish things. Fact is those hurt the world of martial arts in that they are not martial arts but are just tricks. They are slight of hand and other things that have nothing to do with martial arts what so ever.
What I feel Stawert was trying to do in this thread is put up the similarity to what goes on in real life and what is being done in this game. That if when it is done in real life it ios offencive so it might be considered offencive in a game as well. I don\'t think in reading his words find anything that leads me to think he feels that way personaly but that he just thinks it is a possibility to think about.
I as a martial artist don\'t like the idea of putting those skills to that title but that is just me personally. I know what is and what isn\'t, the only thing I don\'t like is that it fits too much into an old stereotype that has been around for quite some time, given to martial artists by con artists and greedy people wanting to turn a buck so they teach tricks instead of skill.
It is one thing when done in real life but an entire different one when done in something like this. Though I dislike it in either form, one is the lesser of two evils. If done right it can just go onto a different realm.
I guess what I am saying is an old, now passed on, master once said that it is not a martial art unless it builds character in the person learning it. This man was Gichen Funakoshi and I think if people are role playing this type of martial artists, and from what I see of the role players here, they will do so with character. They seem to take the shaolin monk persona and add it to their martial arts character and in doing so show curtousy and respect to others. If anything that is what martial arts is all about and if that comes out in the individuals that role play this class of fighter then I say more power to them.
So to close I would just say, take it easy on Stawert, he was just posting a possible concern due to how many frauds there are in the martial arts world that use such mystisism to make a buck. He was just figuring that if it is insulting in the real world then having the same stereotype in a game would be just as insulting to martial artists. Again he isn\'t a martial artist himself so he was only speaking in an assumetion(sp) and you know what they say about people that make assumetions; when you make an assumetion you are making an a$$ of u and me.
Sorry Stawert had to hit you with that one. It was a good thing you were thinking it could be something of a problem. Not too many people seem to care about what they say or do or that some might find it offencive. Then again some people are a bit too sensitive to the same things. There has to be a way to see things down the middle but nothing is ever that way. It is either black or it is white. That\'s all there is to it. Either PS was trying to be insulting or they weren\'t. Obviously the creator of the martial arts skills had no insult intended and went soully on the old mystic world of martial arts. That is something that you will find in many of Chinese history. It is filled with all types of magic abilities. See that word, MAGIC. There was a difference between magic and martial arts. The only real problem is when you have people today that try and say the magic and martial arts are the same. PS is not in that argument and I don\'t think they would ever want to.
To say it all perfectly clear and directly to the point, PS is using martial arts as a skill of disciplin. They are not out there to try and make people believe that if you train martial arts that you will have magic like abilities. That is the thing to remember, it is only those that try to make people believe the mystical mumbo jumbo is martial arts, just so they can make a fast buck, that is offencive to most martial artists. So like I said it is either black or white and there is no gray. PS is not trying to pose their form of martial arts as the real thing so they are fine to do as they will.
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Here, here! I agree completely Kendaro.
There are a lot of frauds out there in the martial arts real world, but that does not affect Planeshift\'s fantasy freedom to create things as it wishes.
Magicians in Vegas should also take note that our Six Ways of Magic and Necromancy are in no way implying that THEY can also perform the magic tricks in this game. It\'s just a computer screen. :-)
- Venge
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Originally posted by Vengeance
I don\'t have a strong opinion of what constitutes a \"martial art\" in Yliakum and what does not. However, I am strongly against random groups appropriating innocuous standard English terms as their own and becoming offended whenever someone uses the terms in a way that is not in 100% agreement with their own definition.
Whether this is born-again Christians scoffing at other people being called \"Christians\" saying they aren\'t \"real Christians\", or people into martial arts saying that Yliakum\'s martial arts are offensive to them, they are equally ridiculous positions to hold. The comparison of \"the N word\" to the fantasy extension of the meaning of the term \"Martial Arts\" is ludicrous and doesn\'t deserve comment, so I won\'t.
I think everyone should chill and worry about something more important, like saving the whale or something.
- Vengeance
(p.s. now half expecting to hear from the National Vengeance Society who has hurt feelings because I am using their cause in a frivolous way with my nickname.)
I like that one, not only because it makes sense, but its not one and a half pages long :P
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And it\'s funny, too :)
Go Vengence! :)
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Wow, I can\'t beleive Im reading this and now Im respnding too?
Ok first off Martial Arts is not a religion, while some religions include martial arts in their training and meditation, they are not one and the same.
Iv studied martial arts sine 1984, that\'s 18 years, not once have I ever heard anyone call it a religion till now.
And when we say martial arts, what exactly are we talking about? Its purest form of definition is the art of combat. Fighting, not boogy man stuff here. Mind and body working as one to destroy, or prevent from being destroyed, that is the Martial in Martial Art.
But more realisticly, we are talking about the collective arts, each with a seperate name, some are truely martial arts and some are simply art.
Stewart, I find it a tad offensive that you have taken it apon yourself to represent those of us who do practice the arts, Im into Judo myself, a selection I made because it is more passive than most and my body size gives me a clear advantage in that form over most arts, that seem to be desingned for little people ( Im 6\'5 320lbs ).
The is nothing HOLY about martial arts, and the mystic qualities of the art are simply products of people not understanding the power a mind and body truely posses. Sory no dragon ball Z, no bullet proof stances, no running on water, simply physicle endurance and mental awareness.
By refering to Martial Arts as a religion, you are doing great harm to your own argument. So please, if you would, stop calling it that. :D
Boy, did I get succered into this one or what?