PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Berzerk on December 31, 2004, 09:42:26 am
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95% of non-textbased MMORPG combat systems these days are just watching the fight go on. What I mean is you start the combat and than your character starts swinging away automaticly in a timed system or something like that, you don\'t actualy fight yourself you just watch the fight and hope you win.
I remember playing Draken a long time ago and fighting with it\'s system online, was the greatest sword fighting game online that I had ever seen. you actualy swung and blocked yourself in realtime combat, was totaly immersive, super intense fights and utterly awesome. it was about both about a strong character and your battle tactics, Currently how PS is, the strongest and best equipt person is basicly gonna be the winner everytime unless the other player gets lucky. Also its really retarded to see your blade obviously go strait through it and not do any damage. I don\'t expect this to chage at all but it just sucks that no good MMOs use a REAL fighting system instead of the standard watch and pray style.
Most people might disagree with this but thats because they\'ve never felt what its like, Why?, because theres nothing like it. Every single MMORPG fighting is a watch teh fight style game, Project Entropia has a click and attack style sure but it costs money to play that game and in a bad way too. (Uhh unless you plan to dump money into play the game don\'t even bother to look it up though it is free to play), it was really fun and cool but the money issue totaly screwed it up.
Imagine, a newbie with no weapons or knowlegde in the world could come and beat the greatest warrior in the world becasue he is so skillful in fighting that he can beat that other player, sure that possiblity is practicaly impossible but its still possible. lol
Basicly if a MMORPG ever came out and used the click to swing yourself style of combat, I would dump any MMORPG I would be playing at the time. its a incredible system just no one uses it, but the first to use it will get TONS of attention because its the only of it\'s kind so there would be no competition for a long time. There I have thourghaly wasted yours and mine time by complaining about something thats not gonna happen for a long time. (Sigh)
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this isnt what the combat will be like. this is just temporary. wait till the devs give us the exact last combat system then complain :)
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Bah, they\'ll keep the current system of combat, why change it after so much work was done on it?. Besides I HIGHLY doubt they will dare to venture into a new realm of MMORPGing thats not the traditional stuff you find everywhere else, besides they wouldn\'t want to go through all the trouble of building a combat AI for the Enemies in the world. But if they do make it like I hope, that hot dang this would probably be the best MMORPG I will ever play.
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OK theyll keep the system. Ur right, im wrong. They said they will change it but there lieing. Why can\'t you jus accept what I said and belive tha they will change the system.
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Heh, totaly missunderstood what I just said. I ment, I doubt they will change it to a fighting system I described, but they could change it to be like that. Never said they won\'t, I just said I doubt they will is all. lol
Doubt means \"don\'t expect\" not \"never will\". :)
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I understand what you are saying Berzerk and I agree that the common system is boring.
The Developers have said repetedly that they are planning on developing an indepth system. You should also know that they have planned and programmed a lot of things that either will not stay or are only a basic rendition of their eventual system.
This is still (contrary to the current, common thought) a Technical Demonstration, not an Alpha or even a Beta of a final product. That means that they are demonstrating some possibilities of their product and yes, they care greatly about the bugs even at this stage.
I would expect a well thoughtout and dynamic combat system to be down the road a ways, but not as far off (or improbable) as some might beleive.
This system seems more focused on the calculations (mainly damage, miss/hit, point_gain) than on the animation or user dynamics but I am sure that it will not always be that way; considering the number of Fans that have voiced their hope of a dynamic system.
They are just focused on the bare basic stuff to make this version a good representation of their \'planns\'.
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Originally posted by Berzerk
95% of non-textbased MMORPG combat systems these days are just watching the fight go on. What I mean is you start the combat and than your character starts swinging away automaticly in a timed system or something like that, you don\'t actualy fight yourself you just watch the fight and hope you win.
I remember playing Draken a long time ago and fighting with it\'s system online, was the greatest sword fighting game online that I had ever seen. you actualy swung and blocked yourself in realtime combat, was totaly immersive, super intense fights and utterly awesome. it was about both about a strong character and your battle tactics
I know i said i would never take up combat agin no matter the advancements as i had been playing combat style since 1988 but that is one advancement that would temp the forester to pick up his battle-axe once more >:D
Originally posted by Berzerk
Currently how PS is, the strongest and best equipt person is basicly gonna be the winner everytime unless the other player gets lucky. Also its really retarded to see your blade obviously go strait through it and not do any damage. I don\'t expect this to chage at all but it just sucks that no good MMOs use a REAL fighting system instead of the standard watch and pray style.
Realise CB is at the very best an \"E3 demo\" of sorts.. so not even %5 of whats going to be.. is... plus since creation and ideas can be added exponentially i bet *hope* something like that gets added
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This is way i always play a mage. Because it\'s the less boring combats...
But the fact the hits mention the bodypart affects makes me hope there will be something like Vagrant Story combat system. It was quite good imho.
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Need I remind you of modern computer capabilities?
It\'d be near-impossible to implement it fairly at this point.
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i think you should be happy there even IS combat
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Ya im just happy we have combat. Its good enough. We dont need any more system for it but i wouldnt mind it.
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I agree. Ever since i\'ved played a game called \"Blade of Darkness\" , i\'ve noticed the tendencies of RPGs to be so focussed on \'damage calculations/rolls\' that there\'s never actually any gameplay. This is why i got bored with NWN combat really fast.
If you haven\'t played BoD, combat can be summarised as follows:
Swing from the left, Swing from the right, center stab, overhead cut , high cut, low cut, kick , shield block .
On top of that you get your mortal combat style of of \'combos\' like \'spinning stab\' , \'center stab, spinning slice\' etc etc.
From the looks of PS, i seriously doubt they\'ll go in that direction. Also, just because the current combat style of mmorpg is to let the PC \'do if for you\' like KOTOR doesn\'t mean everyone else should.
Anyone played Daggerfall? Compare it to the dumbed down combat system of Morrowind. Something tells me Elder Scrolls IV will take a look at Daggerfall\'s combat system again.
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RPGs are RPGs because they emphasize your stats--statistics--not your own personal ability to click the mouse or push the right buttons. In the dev team we refer to this as balancing character skill (stats of your char) with player skill (your personal skill).
Fighting games are all about player skill, to the extent that they (with a couple exceptions probably) don\'t even have progression at all. I\'m thinking of Mortal Kombat and Tekken, Soul Caliber, etc.
RPGs emphasize character skill, because the idea is that the more you progress in the game, you are able to do more.
MMORPGs emphasize character skill for 3 big reasons: a) They are RPGs, like I said above. Without this emphasis, character progression is meaningless. b) Network lag means that it is really almost impossible to have a fair real-time fight. c) People play MMORPGs a LOT--8-12 hrs a day in many cases, and carpal tunnel syndrome is a big problem when you have to push buttons continuously in combat all day long. Ask any EQ Bard about this.
Generally though, elscouta is right--magic has more optionality in it and thus has more advantage to player skill even though stats still matter. If you think you are a smart player and want that to give you advantages, use magic and you will find it more challenging.
- Venge
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Network lag means that it is really almost impossible to have a fair real-time fight.
Indeed. That is certainly a problem, and my knowledge of networking is limited, but some of the most popular online games are not exactly statistics driven [i.e. counterstrike]. So i wouldn\'t bargain on networking being the limiting factor for designing a combat system for long. (Although currently it\'s certain an issue)
The continious button mashing issue, again true, but imho it\'s a design issue. The right interface will make huge differences here, you have to press forward,left,right in any case. Further i\'m not sure whether designing a game so that people that wants to \'idle\' and do 2 other things [i.e. writing emails] at the same time is such a good idea --> This will result in a rather boring game for those actually paying full attention. At least combat should not be designed that you can actually sit back and make coffee.
Either way, i\'ve been mostly playing MUDs/MUSHes and the interesting thing that popped up in my endless xp\'ing sessions was that it was alot more engaging to fight 1 strong mob that requires a variety of tactics during combat rather than 50 weaker ones which do not require any strategy. [Btw PS showed xp gain based on damage and not on the actual kill, which means it\'s quite foreseeable that a variety of mobs can be used to please the different types of xp\'ers. [extremely strong ones which takes ages to kill vs 500 small ones easy to kill].
RPGs are RPGs because they emphasize your stats--statistics--not your own personal ability to click the mouse or push the right buttons.
I personally like to think RPGs are RPGs because of the variety [and freedom] of roles you can play. Some believe putting the focus on a point-click combat system wil boil down to \'less intelligence\' because you won\'t need to calculate statistics. In \'reality\' though, you don\'t actually have the ability to calculate your odds of winning a tennis match by multiplying your forehand stat by 1.618 etc etc.
It\'s true though that \'old school\' or our current rpgs basically means everything is based on stats you can fully control and build up PRIOR to combat/action , which is why the actual combat/action is basically a diceroll. I don\'t know for how long that AD&D type of recipe can be used like that though. I predict the game [mmorpg/rpg] that manages to combine user interaction ability with statistics to such an extend that someone who has never entered combat [but have perfect stats] won\'t win against someone with weaker stats but alot of experience in combat.
Anyway i\'m not really disagreeing with the points made. It makes sense. I would not expect an open source project to actually rewrite the books on mmorpg systems, although i the longevity of it might become limited.
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Originally posted by Berzerk
I remember playing Draken a long time ago and fighting with it\'s system online, was the greatest sword fighting game online that I had ever seen. you actualy swung and blocked yourself in realtime combat, was totaly immersive, super intense fights and utterly awesome. it was about both about a strong character and your battle tactics
That sounds awesome, but the first thing I thought was \"oh, the lag...\". Then Vengeance said something about that too. If you\'ve ever fought PS monsters currently though, they lag and \"run away\", while actually staying in the same spot. Fools lots of newbies. :D
Personally though, I\'d love such a system. Just make sure PS favours people on ADSL/Cable. Total Annihilation made a HUGE mistake there - HEAVILY favoured people on 56k. While I suppose that was fine back then, it\'s not now. I got slaughtered several times multi with my ADSL vs 56k people, but dial up my 56k modem and play the same people and I was the one doing the slaughtering. :D
Edit: I guess it\'s not really possible for this type of game, but I just thought I\'d mention that I also really like fast-paced RTS games. None of this slow stuff like WC3....can\'t even go to 10x or 16x speed. ;(
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Originally posted by Berzerk
There I have thourghaly wasted yours and mine time by complaining
Yes you have.
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Well i am sooooooooooo sick of the \"Sword lvl * STR + DEX + AGIL = Damage / pie - Enemy Defence (all armour combined no less what good is the 30 armour points boots if i stab him in the head?! but thats the PnP relic so they count i guess :/)
= total damage\" have fun and watch the fight..
style of \"fighting\" i could scream.. and yes the enternal monster of \"lag\" have you ever played a shooting game? back in the days of 28.8K?! that was total luck.. fun but skill had nothing to do with XD (actualy every online game in the days of 28.8k-56k was a lot of luck and good bandwidth with a small bit of skill thrown in for fun)
\"So you yung-uns quit yer whippersnapping *shakes cane* in my day we had to walk uphill in the snow just to get 56k and you know what we LIKED it!! A page took 30 minutes to load and a post to an hour to process but we didn\'t whine we where so glad to be using that new-fangled intra-web we could\'ve danced with joy at a download that took 5 days! Darned spoiled kids :P\"
I would love more then a \"click\" enemies dead! \"click\" enemies dead! \"click\" so on and soforth i don\'t care who you are you are a simpleton if you think thats fun *you also smell of elderberries* (its not fun after a month.. how fun is it after 5 years?! at least really \"old-school\" games like zelda you could move in combat use a shield and swing when you felt)
And Cybio.. its not complaining its a CRITCAL design flaw in the combat systems of almost every MMOPRG there is.. just because you obviously haven\'t played MMO long enough to note it doesn\'t mean you can rag on those who have had to live with it a lot
\"Darned spoiled kids *whacks Cybio with cane*\" :P (seriously people have gotten spoiled.. i though CB worked better then i expected even first day.. since i lived with the early internet that was no biggie.. so when i say young(er) gamers are spoiled i really mean it until you had to STOP playing pull a cartridge out of the console blow on it to loosen the dust and just hoped you saved recently as you just lost everything you did.. or had to MANUALY connect to you game \"server\" {friends PC} with a modem that you actualy had to put your phone reciever on.. i frankly don\'t wanna hear it :/)
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Uh...Ok...
I played on all that also but I don\'t...Nevermind.
I agree with both sides on this one.
Vengance is on target with the \'skills are the basis\' argument but it is more fun, and seemigly realistic to have some user imput taking up the slack.
I have had to be carefull in CB with both sides. If you are to far away you can not Melee and some times you just stop attacking (I\'ve been worked by that one in the Lag sessions I have entered) while Magic requires your constant, vigilant support.
Perhaps a way of creating string of different attacks or even just single attacks that could become strung together. Then the users attack types would have play like they do in spell functions.
(IE: making a string that reacts to the \'1\' key: [jab $target; slice $target;] or [/sword_skill The Boar; /sword_skill Whirlwind; ...])
Obviously this would nee to be hotkeyed since typing either of those function sets in a dynamic battle situation would be suicide.
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1. There won\'t be a \"active\" figting system in a MMORPG untill internet 2. It was pointed that skill is determining the outcome of a counterstrike fight. Now look at how many people can play cs simutanously. About 30. And that\'s it. Tere\'s a reason. Bandwidth. We, the users may have the bandwidth required to play MMORPG that way. The MMORPG server doesn\'t.
2. When it comes to fight being driven by stats, there is also one stat that you forgot - random variable (like where the hit lands, whether it hits at all, etc.).
3. If you don\'t like the idea of \"clik, then make yourself a tea and check if you\'ve won already\" skills can be implemented, or fighting styles, then modified with fight planning (eg. my usual tactic is defensive, but i want my next three moves to be a feint, then a stab in the chest, and a swing in the head) - this also could eleminate the problem of \"I\'ve hit him in the head with an axe and he\'s still alive\" - more or less like it was done in \"Evil Islands\" - these aren\'t as good as actually controling the character yourself, but i\'d say they are a reasonable compromise.
(idea - there could be three stances - berserk, normal, and defencive, all of them having their specific attacks. Berserk is more effective against normal, normal is more effective against defencive and defencive is more effective against berserk. Of course, you increase your fighting skill independently for each of these stances. Then add moves that come from having certain stats/skills at a certain level, and we have a nice fighting system imho)
4. the idea of being a better fighter by actually fighting is also nothing new - go play \"ultima online\" - the more you practice a skill, the better you are. Simple. No character development with \"oh, let\'s add some points to reading, even though my character hasn\'t seen a book in his/hers entire life.\"
Edit: some mistakes, or wrongly formed sentences
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Originally posted by MareviQ
1. There won\'t be a \"active\" figting system in a MMORPG untill internet 2. It was pointed that skill is determining the outcome of a counterstrike fight. Now look at how many people can play cs simutanously. About 30. And that\'s it. Tere\'s a reason. Bandwidth. We, the users may have the bandwidth required to play MMORPG that way. The MMORPG server doesn\'t.
Ever played a little game called Planetside?
Or better yet, a successful game- Battlefield 1942.
The new BF game Battlefield 2 will have 128 players simultaneously.
And a launch game for the Xbox 2 will, also, have 128 players simultaneously.
Half life is even working out physics with its multiplayer
The \"internet 2\" you speak of is upon us.
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you\'re talking a combat sytem similar to the newer zelda games? like oot and tww? yeah that would be awsome, the weapon and armor should be minor influence compared to the players (not charactors) fighting skills
i would be happy even with a tibia like fighting system, it had one of the best rpg systems i saw for minimum lag effects.
also could you imagine playing gta and clicking on one of the guys and just going (oh now im gunna watch rather than use my skill) then the total nerds would not always run things
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Wow lots of good points made on both sides. For starters I don\'t mind the watch style of combat I just would dump it any day for a self-controled combat system. So if PS stays as a watch style I won\'t mind that much, just personaly I think it not as good of an idea.
Secondly, Internet speeds between Cables and 56ks is not half as bad as you say, the internet has gotten so much faster now days having a phoneline connection is not a major disadvatage, still a disatvatage but not much. I remember back during the Quake two days me and my bros would beat the living crap out of cable and T1 players with simple blasters against their mighty rocket launchers and we were on a average of a 42k connection only. lol, now days the differance between connections is much smaller so I don\'t think thats a real valid point to make.
Thirdly, WOW someone else besides me has actualy played Blade of Darkness. LMAO
Fouthly, Having a real time fighting system would eliminate teh nerds from ruling the world like Black_Rose said, very annoying to know that who ever plays the most obsessively is gonna be the top no matter what, sure thats more or less the reward for being so devoted, but its also very stupid to see someone wasting their life playing it all the dang time. I for one would be glad to see the obsessive players finaly knocked around so they realise they have a life outside of the game. lol
Five, Cybio Kingfist I would appreciate it if you didn\'t post a quote leaving out the rest of a sentance that adresses part the meaning of that quote, you made me look like I was complaining to the Devs like a child that the real time fighting is not in this, I was complaining in general of all MMORPGs that none have done it yet. Personaly I thought it was rather rude, but thats just me.
Six, The fighting system can still incorporate the statistics part, but not to determine the whole fight, but build a system thats uses both realms of combat in one system.... but not like Morrowind did cause that was just as bad as the watch style fights really. Compromise a way for combat to suit everyones desires, perhappes even a Auto-fight for players who suck at fighting, and the better you get the better you auto-fight, of course it wouldn\'t be as good as fighting yourself.
Seven, If you must absolutly have a watch and pray style combat system than look for one of the zillion other games like this use that system of combat. Waiting for this one when your real goal is point and click combat than waiting is pointless as there are tons of point and clicker combats out there now that are done and fully playable already. lol
Eight, (Man this is getting long) The point of this thread was to encourage the Devs to use the Real time combat system by seeing how many would want it over the standard old watch style. This was not ment to be a debate over which style is better for what ever reasons.
Nine, This IS still a alpha, there IS a ton of work to be done on it. anything and I mean ANYTHING can be changed in the production time it currently has. This game won\'t be done for at the very least a year or two. Why I brought this up I am not sure.
Ten, Just for good measure, and because I wanted to break the ten mark. lol
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anybody here ever played ultima online the combat system seems similar to a compromize of what you all want first you initiate the attack then you run in and your character swings automaticly but you can also use special moves and performance effecting spells to boost your dmg heal or whatever to help you win the fight.
a player vs player situation turns into 2 people fighting using special moves at the right times and healing and the first person to hit a special move at the right times will win or the other person forgets a heal in time and dies it is mostly about stats tho with the right skill you can take people out who are stronger/better equipped than yourself
the special moves cost mana so you cant jsut endlessly use them and it gives a reason for a pure fighter character to even have mana in the first place it also allows a pure fighter to compete with a mage in a battle
::begin random rant:::
in all fairness if there was magic IRL im sure a mage could never be defeated by a warrior with a sword but in MMORPGs you have to keep it fair even tho it never would be in reality this helps to balance the equasion befor everyone pulls out the nerf stick and yells at the Devs to make a character class less powerfull
::end rant::
sry about that i lost the subject at some point lol
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Planetside is a better example than Battlefield, simply because there are less information to manage in BF2 than in a MMORPG. And still, ppl who played Planeside wasn\'t really satisfied with it.
I think Venge told mostly everything on the reason to use such system, unfortunaly, the technical part is already a lot.
Comfort is an other part too, that the casual player won\'t understand.
Playing all the day may looks too easy, the only skill this person has is free time. But this person must cleverly find how to gain xp and become more powerful
Now perhaps the solution is in adding a few thrill to this kind of fight.
We could imagine than each shield/armor is more affected by a certain kind of weapon, so the player must choose carefully wich weapon/spell use.
It could be possible to use different attacking/defending style.
Perhaps even a training part where you enter some combination of moves/magic to have specific damage. And then in game, you use a shortcut to this combination. So perhaps someone who has cleverly made his fighting style can beat more experienced player...
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Not sure if it was mentioned. Even though i\'m for a \'interactive\' combat system [vs stats-driven one] there\'s another crucial problem:
You will need a very refined behavioural-AI system for all mobs. I\'m sure the stats-driven system do not require alot of AI [if at all] other than the list of available spells and targeting/pathfinding of the mob [the rest is embedded in the \'behaviour\' of the spell/skill used]. In a \'manual\' combat system the mob will need to have the ability to block,swing,target,MOVE based on YOUR activities [i.e. if you block it must change behaviour [i.e. stop hitting] ].
So each and every mob now suddenly need a whole lot of behavioural code [and imagine the calculations going on for each battle] . Most games i\'ve seen that have good unique AI generally do not have alot of variety in opponents [i.e. humanoids only].
Also, MMORPGs assumes most of the interaction will be between players who already are walking AI-gods (rather that\'s what i believe). Trouble is, where do you spend most of your time? Killing players or killing mobs? Interacting with NPCs [quests/trading] or with Players? PS has to ask those questions (all MMORPG probably should).
If a large part of the game intents to let players interact with NPCs then i\'d say some AI behaviour will be needed.
[For example NPC walking around with routines and NOT standing in one place]. If the largest part will be interacting/fighting with mobs then some AI will probably be the \'ultimate\'. But i\'m aware [and i\'ve seen this in the MUD i play] that \'intelligent\' AI on a 1000 spawned rats wil kill you system because it will use the equivalent of a 1000 players\' resources if you think about it.
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well right nowe their is combat and that is graeat, but i would rather even a diablo style combat, at least that is better,
also i meant by skills being little difference like you would thrust fasted and block faster with better thrusting/ blocking skills get it??? also i thought that you could develope your level around one item that you own (like getting good at mario would not make you good at donkey kong but they are bolth games so getting good with your sabre would not make you awsome with a broad sword although it would make you decent but not as good as with that sabre)
edit: i also think that this will bring out player to player interaction by teaching good combos and moves (like slash stab backflip block stab) you know??
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Originally posted by Berzerk
Secondly, Internet speeds between Cables and 56ks is not half as bad as you say, the internet has gotten so much faster now days having a phoneline connection is not a major disadvatage, still a disatvatage but not much.
My 56k rarely loses any packets. :D
Hey, anyone remember that game where you use the mouse to control where your sword goes? :P
That would be cool....move the mouse around to move your wep while using the keyboard to move your char. You click the mouse buttons to signal attacks. If you are moving forward, you\'ll jab, but if you\'re moving left/right you\'ll slash, etc.
Could also prove interesting with staff weapons. Just imagine taking out two opponents by ramming your spear into one\'s gut(behind you), then thrusting it forward to take out the other.
Would certainly be more realistic than it is now...but hard to control, meaning only certain people could be warriors/skilled warriors, just like IRL.
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well i thought about making a plainshift controller
they could use the income to pay for the server and the site. :D
but u could also install ur own controller (sidewinder ect. ect.) then it would be like a console game or use the keyboard...
also some monsters could be strong and smart enough to be able to take out 10 players at once when others would be weak, it might not go by race as mutch as a small monster leveling system until it dies (of course it would level in a faster wa then us like by hits) then their could be a weakling goblin that gets the power of a lvl 100 person, monsters would fight eachother
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Make the battle have some tactics(block, high cut etc.) and make it turn based(lag really doesnt matter that much anymore) if you got a fast char you can attack 2 or 3 times a turn. Slow ones only once a turn.
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What exactly is the point of adding such combat system in mmorpg? To reduce roleplaying and increase hack&slash? Sounds pretty stupid to me...
- Swords
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Originally posted by Berzerk
95% of non-textbased MMORPG combat systems these days are just watching the fight go on. What I mean is you start the combat and than your character starts swinging away automaticly in a timed system or something like that, you don\'t actualy fight yourself you just watch the fight and hope you win............
Berzerk Its called Turn-based.. Like Runescape...
>.< and i dont like Runescape..
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Hey, anyone remember that game where you use the mouse to control where your sword goes?
That would be cool....move the mouse around to move your wep while using the keyboard to move your char. You click the mouse buttons to signal attacks. If you are moving forward, you\'ll jab, but if you\'re moving left/right you\'ll slash, etc.
That was \"Die by the sword\" I believe. Yes, that kind of control would be impressive, but not in a MMORPG. Why? Let me tell you a tale, of a MMORG (Massive Multiplayer Online Racing Game) long gone - \"Motor City Online\". It is a tale of glory, promptly followed by sorrow, and ... ok, i\'m getting on with it. It was simple - a game where your skills REALLY mattered when it came to the outcome of a race. And where is it now? It didn\'t even stay long enough to have it\'s server reverse-engineered (pity...). What happened was that some time after it\'s release, new gamers no longer joined, and some of the ones that were playing decided to quit. There were just too many great drivers they could not compete with. And soon after the dark times came - the Emp^H^H^H^H single player mode. Yes, a single-player mode was introduced, where a novice could compete against the clock. But that kind of sucked. You buy an online game to play with others, don\'t you? So, the \"weak\" left, and only the harcore fans remained. But there weren\'t enough of them to keep the game running, and EA pulled the plug.
What happened to MCO is a danger to any MMO game that will depend mostly on gamers skills (action games excluded, after all, gamers skills is all they are about). And it would be difficult to balance the game, so that everyone can have fun playing it, not only the ones gifted with \"l337 5k1ll2\".
Note: for a longer and more detailed history of MCO go visit http://www.racingnationonline.com
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but their are so many things that teach people to play good anywase, we could make bows and arrows like a fps style and you would have to say (type) the spell you wanted like a chant then aim it to use it :]