PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Asenuth on January 28, 2005, 01:20:21 pm
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Is it possible that power levelers and roleplayers can co-exist?
If it is possible, is it doable?
Can the GMs spare the time to moderate every fight? Can they keep watch of every dispute?
Can they keep track of that is important to both? Do they even number that high?
What of the Developers? Can they make the call for each feature? Can they accept that what the Levelers may love, the Roleplayers may hate? ...or the other way round? Can they spare the time to check that each feature spurns neither one?
And if that was so, should we try?
Everquest, Tibia, Lineage, Runescape, DAoC, etc. These are the places where the levelers are. In each of them is space for every Leveler, Playerkiller and Non-roleplayer that ever did live. In each Roleplayers scrape out their marginal existence... Perhaps the levelers fight even though they have already won? Perhaps they simply do not understand...?
Perhaps, I say, that PlaneShift is where the Roleplayers are? Perhaps in this place is where the levelers are lost? Perhaps in the dungeons of Yliakum is where a dragon of geekish fury slumbers...? Perhaps planeshift is where the roleplayers out-number the levelers, perhaps this is my home?
Then again, perhaps I am merely the voice of a lonely child, who has been here barely a week...?
What say you?
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Hard to say, as it largely depends on the place.
Plaza - many trolls
Arena - many levelers
Tavern - many roleplayers
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Originally posted by Draklar
Plaza - many trolls
Arena - many levelers
Tavern - many roleplayers
In MB the rp to pl was maybe 5 to 1
With the induction of CB rp\'ers have lost there
grab on being the majority it would seems more
like a 30/70 split with us on the rp side losing out
and losing ground rapidly.
but on that same note, I\'ll meet you in the Tavern. :)
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Originally posted by mikewsnc
In MB the rp to pl was maybe 5 to 1
I suspect that the lack of, well, anything made it rather hard for Levelers to avoid dieing of boredom. Roleplayers, conversely, tend to manage with considerably less features, requiring only enough to anchor a reasonable concept of the game world upon.
It seems was right to think MB would of suited me.
With the induction of CB rp\'ers have lost there
grab on being the majority it would seems more
like a 30/70 split with us on the rp side losing out
and losing ground rapidly.
Nevertheless a far better ratio than is presented on most other games. One can only hope that it turns in our favor, or at least descends no further...
but on that same note, I\'ll meet you in the Tavern. :)
*Yoink!*:)
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Quote:
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With the induction of CB rp\'ers have lost there
grab on being the majority it would seems more
like a 30/70 split with us on the rp side losing out
and losing ground rapidly.
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Nevertheless a far better ratio than is presented on most other games. One can only hope that it turns in our favor, or at least descends no further...
Well that is if those numbers are true. I go ingame a lot and get this feeling that it\'s more like 10/90...
Hopefully, people will soon get bored of just leveling and go back to good ol\' RP :)
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ratio may be that out of wack i dont know. me i preaty much just hang in the gathering sections of town so most the people i know are not running around saying \"hey how many rats i gotta kill to lvl\" or \" man we need more monsters im tired of rats\". so yeah theres probly alot more PL\'s out there than i think, i just dont associate with them. i say leave creatures the way it is right now and add features. i wanna be a smithy for crying out loud. :( but alas it would seem what i want is much further off.
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We are already co-existing. youve proven that to yourself with this thread.
Rp\'ers and Levellers can survive together, they can alos leran from one another.
There just has to be place designated where they can enact these sociopathic activities.
There is already an arena to fight in, all we need is a sperate place where PvP can happen if it needs to.
That way they are out of sight out of mind, they may also learn RP actions like dealing with groups of challengers to themselves for a change.
You get a reputation as a big man, lots are going to want to come and take that place, eventually it\'ll get on your nerves receiving all those challenges and you look towards the other way of life...RP.
Congratulations you have just had a conversion :)
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(I feel I should note at this point that if it seems I\'m on my high-horse, well, I started this thread so I wouldn\'t be on my high-horse in other threads, at least not without warning. I\'m normally more... pragmatic.)
Originally posted by Bardialus
We are already co-existing. youve proven that to yourself with this thread.
My point is that we are co-existing with the Levelers in much the same way that one has a relationship with one\'s enemies. You do ...technically.
It also seems that we Roleplayers seem to spend an awful of time writing and answering threads like Moogie\'s A moral speech (http://www.planeshift3d.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=13796&boardid=13&styleid=3) or Seperot\'s New disease sweeping out lands... (http://www.planeshift3d.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=13548&boardid=13&styleid=3), Who know how many more just like them are in the archive.
Rp\'ers and Levellers can survive together, they can alos leran from one another.
I can survive a great many things, very few of which are in any way beneficial to me. It seems strange to me that, in a game that is slated towards its \"Core-Roleplayers\" that those same roleplayers are \'surviving\' while the levelers seem to be booming...
I can\'t help but feel that this is somehow... backward.
There just has to be place designated where they can enact these sociopathic activities.
There is already an arena to fight in, all we need is a sperate place where PvP can happen if it needs to.
That way they are out of sight out of mind, they may also learn RP actions like dealing with groups of challengers to themselves for a change.
You get a reputation as a big man, lots are going to want to come and take that place, eventually it\'ll get on your nerves receiving all those challenges and you look towards the other way of life...RP.
Thus generating prestige for levelers (prestige that would otherwise belong to a Roleplayer), taking up bandwidth(1) (ditto), most likely increasing the number of duels in hydlaa plaza (not only a potential threat to realism but potentially scaring off less combat-inclined players), putting the bulk of Planeshift\'s Tria in the hands of the Leveling population (thus, effectively, PlaneShift\'s economy as well.)
Sounds brilliant, where do i sign? ;)
Additionally, those self-same events could happen in another game, with the same basic results. including...
(which brings us to...)
Congratulations you have just had a conversion :)
I agree that some can be converted, but there is heaven only knows how many games out there that prove \"there\'s plenty more where that came from.\"
Currently there is no reason for new players to even expect that Planeshift is meaningfully different from any other mmorpg out there. There is no indication in the game or on the website of the position that the moderators, developers and elders have been stating over and over: Planeshift is geared towards roleplayers.
Until such an indication is visible we can expect an endless influx of levelers.
Worse, theres no reason for any Roleplayers to think that this game is any different from, say, Rune scape.
That alone should chill you to the bone.
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You know you\'ve written a long post when you have footnotes...
1. Admittedly, I recall reading that server bandwidth is no where near full capacity and that theres a rather long list of potential candidates willing to donate additional servers...
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How many posts will it take to make people learn the true meaning of RP?
In the beginning of RP people like \'levellers\' were independent from the game to the extent that they did achieve prestige. However through many reviews and updates of the D20 rules those people became equal tothose kind of Char that thrived on the RP aspect of having to deal with things.
That is their aim in this game, to become more powerful.
Real RP is in its core makeup comprised of this effect, and thus different \'paths\' were created for a Char to choose from.
RP is an amalgamation of all the aspects of life within the RP world, once you understand this you understand RP.
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Originally posted by Draklar
Hard to say, as it largely depends on the place.
Plaza - many trolls
Arena - many levelers
Tavern - many roleplayers
Tavern - many lifeless rpg\'ers lost so deep in their obsession that they don\'t ever go out even in a virtual world (i.e. stay in the tavern), in short, dim-wits (pun intended); more like.
I suppoer every sane roleplayer wants to complete quests and explore the furthest corners of the world, and the game should require some levels up to do that...
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Huh, no... they just step inside for a pint or just to talk. Tavern is the place where adventurers go to talk and have fun. And if you see that as a sign of being lifeless, well, no comments :rolleyes: :)
And for people thinking roleplayers could learn anything from levelers: RPG was never about anything close to leveling.
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Why are you all describing role playing and levelling as fundamental opposites, they are not, I admit to like the levelling bit because it allows me to talk about my killing of two ulbernauts instead of just pretending, it allows me to show the wonderful sword I just made instead of just acting as if I was a smith, it allows me to build the house I imagined, instead of just stating I am a builder, but none of this actually forbids me from acting my part or rather the part of the character I decided to play.
Of course if I don\'t know you I\'ll probably walk past you without saluting you but ask yourself this question, would it be in character to stop and salute someone in the middle of the street if you did not know him ?
In other words, I believe the current separation in PS is
10/60/30
10 % of the players are what I would deam actors, they don\'t use the game, they just act out the character they imagined
60 % of the players are part actors, part levellers
30 % of the players are pure levellers and not interested by anything else
And that is not such a bad thing, you just have to take the time to address people, you\'ll mostly be surprised to see how much they will do to play their part if you do play yours, of course don\'t expect the same level of acting with all of them as with expert roleplayers, most of the player you meet online have never done much of the paper role playing and have grown used to what game magazines pass out as role playing games :))
Then again I might be an optimist but up until now all people I\'ve stopped to talk with took the time to act normal or in character as the case may be.
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Darakus, let\'s point out the fundamental facts. Killing one or two ulbernauts is not leveling. Killing them all day long and doing nothing else is.
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I haven\'t heard any coherent descriptions of what the RPers want. What do they want? What are they missing now?
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Mugs.
No, really that\'s only thing I want now :|
Everything else seems fine so far.
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Originally posted by Vengeance
I haven\'t heard any coherent descriptions of what the RPers want. What do they want? What are they missing now?
Card Games. Or some sort of bored (heh) game. Not checkers or anything.
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I can only speak for myself, but, I Rp when I am in the mood to do so, but I level every chance I can. Why? Because I want my character to be the character I see in my mind, not just a one-dimensional story teller. I actually want my mind\'s creation to be able to kill an Ulbernaut, not just talk about it.
I try at all times to be respectful to others, and try hard to see their points of view, but I am unable to understand why the hardcore Rp are having a problem with me getting my character where I want it to be.
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I \'ll quote Grono, as her statement happens to be very true:
So funny how people only read what they want to read and how they can misunderstand a very, very clear message
Said that, read carefully all the posts before attacking the \"hardcore Rp\".
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I hate to sound negative, but this is from experience of playing MMORPGs.
Oil and water simply don\'t mix well at all. If one spends a heck of a lot of time shacking the two in a confined container they begin to form an emulsion mixture. If the shaking is not continued the mixture separates back into water and oil sections.
Power players and Role players are like water and oil. The shacking work would be the GMs, the container is the virtual world, water is the Role Players while oil is the Power Players.
As for the ratio between the two, Power players don\'t need much in the world to be able to power up (just provide monsters and they generally be happy). On the other hand the Role players generally need a more complete heavily detailed complex world to interact and interact with others (the atmosphere of the world).
With the world in a very incomplete form it does limit the amount of role playing that one can do. In terms of careers, there is basicly only one available at the moment, that is the miner. For adventuring the real only one is the fighters, as magic is still very young and very limiting. Also the models for races are incomplete, actions for the models are very incomplete, that is they only stand, walk, run and attack, there is not sitting (chair, bench), squarting, greetings, beggining, etc. Customization of textures is simply a bonus. No wonder the players tend to Power play than Role play.
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Originally posted by confused
As for the ratio between the two, Power players don\'t need much in the world to be able to power up (just provide monsters and they generally be happy). On the other hand the Role players generally need a more complete heavily detailed complex world to interact and interact with others (the atmosphere of the world).
MB proves this statement wrong...
Also, when playing p&p RPGs I never really needed any animations ;)
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Graphics just improves the quality of the atmosphere. The detail comes in the form on how one can interact with the world. Basicly if you can fly in your character description, it should be possible, if you can swim should be able to enter water and explore. If you want to make jewelry should be able to do it, want to be a lumberjack should be able to do it, etc. Role playing is not just about chatting in a tavern all day long, it is about adventuring, exploring, crafting, social rank climbing (politics), etc.
This is the big problem currently with role playing, you are very limited in how you can develop your character, thus one tends to power play more than role play. Basicly only role play when you interacting with other players (hoping they would responc in a role play manner).
Until the world is developed a heck of a lot more, role play will be taking the back seat.
With only the killing of rats as the basic fighting career development, no other crafts are available to the starting character with only ming coming in a much later as an additional option. Basicly a character should be able to start a living immediately upon creation with the skills and knowledge gained from the character\'s parent\'s craft trade, thus using the character\'s background, history to develop the character. A starting rogue should have the basic tools (dagger or blackjack, pick locking tools if from a good thieving background) to be able to earn a living.
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I\'ve seen roleplayers exploring the wilderness, starting pilgrimage, performing as bards, creating maps, working as barkeeps or cooks, offering dubious services to tired adventurers ;), rogue trying to earn money by tricking others.
Real roleplayer does not need any features to roleplay. He might just as well use irc for that.
Let\'s point out the first form of RPG, where all features you had was pencil, dice and paper...
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Originally posted by Draklar
Let\'s point out the first form of RPG, where all features you had was pencil, dice and paper...
.... and a DM (GM) who was always available for the characters to fully interact with the world during the gaming session.
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And I believe you also had things in which you chose to either interact with and fight or walk away from.
The \'hard core\' RP\'s should try to remember this when they spout on about what real RP is.
Its what you want it to be as a char.
How can I say this people ask, well the answer is very simple:
Rp experience - 18 years.
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what i miss..but what i know will come in the future are crafting skills...
with that you will get players who will be more dedicated to to other things then fighting... and of course... awarding some xp\'s for crafting or mining... so that the working class of people can advance too.
i wanted to start a gambling place... using roll comand... some sort of lottery... just to give the place a little color and alternative entertainment to killing
i am pretty much new to planeshift ...been playing for 10 days or so....and i spent half that time mining or wandering across the mountains... which wasn\'t to exciting but will be once the game fully blooms
what do rp people need... i suppose a lot of miscellenious seemingly pointless options.... stuff like a dance comand... which would make the character jump around randomly... ability to get drunk...and pass out....
but a lot of roleplaying doesn\'t depened on the game engine as much as it does on community... let\'s organize a carnival.... with joke and funny walk races... stories of the most rediculus deaths....
what\'s my point... well there isn\'t one i am just rambling
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name : Role Playing Game
in such all games are rpg\'s, you play tomb raider, you role play as lara or whoever is new in it, you play fifa you role play whole tem of footballers.
some people dont play to \'be\' a character they \'play\' to get to the top of the list to bigger themselves, natural humanity makes you feel you have to do it all, be the best and be it now.
then theres the compassionate side, these guys hold everything together, they are the ones who spend the time helping out, ingame or out of it, they donate what they can for the good of the game, they play because the love the feeling of interaction, a dream to actually be there, saying that, can overwhelm them with joy, and so they persue their dream by \'being\' their character
then theres just spoilers, they give out quest inof un needed hints, general abuse and try to make money out of anything :rolleyes:
power levellers and roleplayers can and are existing in planeshift, its like everyday life, you get the ones working and working and working to get better, the PL, you get the people who spend most of the time socialising, always going out happy ready to talk, the RP. and you get the other ones... generally vandalising if they\'re young, noisy abusive wreckless, a good example is in Driving, the PL has to get their quick, but ensures he/she does it properly, the RP takes their time, lets people cross the road, and tunes in the radio, the other one, speeds, almost causing accidents, abusing other vehiclists and pedestrians as they get in their way...
RP\'s and PL\'s are fine amongst each other, the other one, luckily is a minority and thats where GM\'s come in ;)
even if RP\'s and PL\'s arent seen co-existing in many games, they do here ;)
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HEAR HEAR!!
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nice to hearn an agreement from an experienced RP\'er Bardialus :D
i\'ve on off rp\'ed about a year now, MB n all that ^^
not too shabby for a novice eh :P
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Originally posted by Bardialus
And I believe you also had things in which you chose to either interact with and fight or walk away from.
Only things I could interact with were my friends, pencil, paper and dice. Rest was imagination. I believe PS has more to actually interact with.
And saying you need all those features to actually be your character is nonsense.
When I\'m ingame I talk as my character would, I behave as my character would, I think as my character would.
There I am my character. And I don\'t need any of those jobs implemented. Roleplaying always needed some imagination. You know, wine isn\'t implemented yet, but I sure drink it in tavern. Roleplaying features are useful, yes. But skilled roleplayer doesn\'t need them to actually roleplay his character.
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There is a nice little command that makes you crafting.
Lets assume you are a nice housewife and make dinner,
just type /me cooks dinner, then after some time type /me serves the dinner, and you have made dinner for a hungry husband.
If it comes to me, I would gladly play a MUD without graphics, without integrated item management and all this stuffy things if I could roleplay with friends.
In PS I have graphics (good ones /me winks at Devs), nice ambient music, inventory, even monsters I can hunt down with my friends and huge areas to explore, so do you really think that crafting is needed to RP?
Crafting would be a good advancement sure. But with your imagination, a restore health potion becomes a fine meal and Draklar really hands over the drinks after Cad got , ... (I should stop with it now) and you really pay for the drink. And in your imagination you cook that damn meal, you have a hot night in a room with a prostitute or you smith a sword.
Well I would say that imagination is the material and clue of which you make a box, you and your friends fill it.
RPing isnt a matter of the time you play it, its a matter of the imagination.
A good carpenter ever chooses the wood, the tools per hand, and then begins his work,
So should you do, choose your wood ( you, and your friends), the tools (The Chars of you and your friends), and then use your imagination to make a masterpiece, a story of love and honour or death and decay.
For the human spirit is the only thing noone can measure, why should we let the measurable things (with what i mean the graphics or features of a game) control this infinite source of fantasy?
Why should we enchain and inprison our spirit?
If you IMAGINE that the spoilers AREN\'T there, they AREN\'T there.
If you IMAGINE that the PLs ARE just weaklings, they ARE just weaklings.
If you IMAGINE that you DRAW a wonderful picture, you DRAW it.
When you free your spirit from the graphics, when you dont rely on them anymore, you will have limitless (endless) fun, you will gain honour without measure, or you will be the feared imperator of darkness if you want.
I give you this tip: It isnt what we see that counts, it is what we imagine. Imagine that you are a swordfighter without a match and you will be. Imagine what you want to be.
Our imagination is gods gift to us, what we do with it is our gift to god.
- sincerly Sirvion Sirullis
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yes i can imagine... all that.... i agree with you. but the graphic engine ...the game itself is there to help us share our imagination with others more effectively. I can imagine i am blacksmith and i made the best claymore ever...i am happy with that... now to share that with another player i need something...words...a drawing... an item in planeshift... it\'s not neccessary but it helps.
if we take your imagine theory to the extreme.. i could lay in my bed and imagine the best rpg ever... without internet..wihout a computer...without a pen.... without anyone but me. I used to do that ... some 15 years ago when closest thing to an rpg on a computer i played was golden axe.
i am just saying it will help me communicate my ideas/imagination to other players once the crafting skills are active.
if i free my spirit of graphics entirely ... i will stop playing computer games and stick only to the regular pnp.
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What Yliakum needs is more posts like Merdarion\'s if we want more people doing RP.
Originally posted by Merdarion
There is a nice little command that makes you crafting.
Lets assume you are a nice housewife and make dinner,
just type /me cooks dinner, then after some time type /me serves the dinner, and you have made dinner for a hungry husband.
Having played lots of things from way back to paper and dice, I am out there trying to do my part but I hadn\'t discovered /me until this post.
So you had this n00b running around going \"Altair says mutter\", \"Altair says pokes you\" etc. Not the greatest results...
Eventually people figure out you have to select a person to greet them properly etc. But the best way to get more people into RP is for them to see it done in game and to get more information out there!
Thanks Merdarion!
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One problem that has to be addressed is the definition of the word \'Roleplayer\', since the word\'s meaning is so broad that it encompasses activities so dissimilar as to be comparable only in name. Broad, frankly, to the point of uselessness.
This is a problem who\'s solution is so blindingly obvious that it took me forever to think of it. :)
Defining it by goals rather than activities, the distinction between Roleplayers, Levelers (1) and Explorers becomes quite clear (2).
Sticking close to the definition of the word, we can define a \'Roleplayer\' as someone who is primarily concerned with the advancement of their role. More modern trends include a tendency to focus on story (even to the point of possible detriment to the character) so we will add a desire to advance the story as part of the definition.
A \'Power-leveler\' (\'Leveler\' for short) is more generally understood and, thus, easier to define. Inevitably, the \'Leveler\' is concerned with advancing the power or influence of their character. Combat prowess is simply the most obvious choice and the easiest to recognize.
An Explorer is primarily concerned with exploring some aspect of the gameworld. Which aspect is a different story, sometimes it is the obvious exploration of the gameworld\'s topography, or it might be the details of the magic system (3). Occasionally, just to confuse that matter, an explorer will concern themselves with the exploration of a character, thus causing some overlap with Roleplayers.
Not only do most people know what their interests are, but are also quite willing to say what it is.
With that out of the way, let us now attempt to describe how these types (4) interact with Roleplayers (5).
Explorers tend to get along with Roleplayers, since they can often understand Roleplaying as the desire to explore another personality, or to explore possibilities in the form of a story.
Roleplayers, likewise can appreciate the depth and breadth of knowledge that an explorer possesses, at least in their field of interest, and often appear in a Roleplayer\'s story as scouts, wise men, magi, etc. Whats more is that explorers will often dabble in roleplaying, improving the already amicable relationship between the two.
Levelers, however, present a bit of a problem, since they will happily sacrifice role, story and atmosphere in order to gain power. Such things are as meaningless to Levelers as they are sacrosanct to Roleplayers. They are less of a problem to Explorers however, since what the Explorer values can not be stripped from them, the worst that can be done is slow them down. Explorers tend to be a patient lot.
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I wanted to address additional points in this post but, frankly, I don\'t write that fast and this post is already a day late!
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More footnotes:
1. Examination of some of the earlier posts reveals some minor confusion of my use of the word \'Leveler\'. In this post an all my earlier posts it is simply a abbreviation of \'Power-leveler\'
2. I imagine there is a great deal of other goals that could be distinguished, but these seem the most relevant to the discussion.
3. The magic system\'s current (lack of) implementation not withstanding, it looks like what the developers have in mind will encourage this kind of exploration. My inner explorer squeals with delight at the prospect!
4. Not to be confused with either the MBTI or Bartle\'s HCDS. (see references)
5. Since the official position is that planeshift is focused on its \'Core-Roleplayers\' these comparisons are the most relevant to the discussion at hand. However, it might be worth while for me to make a more complete address of the types at another time (depending on interest)
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With added recommended reading:
Hearts, Clubs, Diamonds, Spades: Players Who Suit MUDS (http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm) - R. A. Bartle
\'The Window\' Roleplaying game (http://www.mimgames.com/window/) - by Scott Lininger (Methods in the Madness)
The Forge\'s artical pages (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/) - from \'The Forge\'
Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (http://www.typelogic.com/) - from \'TypeLogic\'
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Yep, I can also be on the bed and have the ultimate RPG adventure all by myself. But know one would ever share the experience.
Then comes Pen & Paper RPGs, which allows you and friends to enjoy the collective imaginative experience together. Have well developed characters with very detailed life background, even including parent\'s life experiences the parents have told. Characters know the skills and the trade of the parents, know what their social ranking is and how to behave accordingly. The characters have normal trade careers, or political interests if of the society\'s elite, when not adventuring to try to steal the dragon\'s treasure without being spotted by the dragon. Crafting trade characters create items to sell, with the occasional exceptional item being created and talk about adventures in the taverns. Mages prefer to do research on magical items or create new items or magic. Mages purchase excellent quality items from the crafting traders, or friends who are crafters. The characters can be commissioned to help fortify a keep or tower for a power land lord, building traps and casting permanent enchantments and the like. Characters who create exceptional items sort of become famous when the items passes between hands of the elite and those who with knowledge of the items. Items can also become famous when used to defeat a long time foe of the kingdom. All this is possible with Pen & Paper RPGs as all this is recorded on the player\'s character sheets and the GM (DM) history and events sheets.
Now with MMORPGs, especially graphical ones, do imply limitations to how much a character can develop whic in turns affects the role play of the character. I seen excellent MUDs, where most of the career paths are implimented, social structure in place, political system in place, economy existing between NPC and PCs. Even PC can create new magics, items and other strange things with the aid of GMs being present. Everyday life exists where one needs sleep, eat (hopefully find someone to do it for you or you better learn how to cook), being drunk of a joyous trip to the tavern. But all this is only possible if these features have been added to the game engine and world.
In Pen & Paper RPGs, if something (a feature or item) is missing the GM just creates it and impliments it immediately simply because the GM is with the players at all times. With MMORPGs it is not possible for the few GMs to be with every single player at once, also just can\'t create new features and items on the fly if it is graphical in nature (text base MUDs it is possible if the GMs are provided with a suitable interface to create these features in real time). Thus the game engine and world needs to support many features in an automatic manner to allow the world to continue to function with little direct GM partcipation to make the world progress forward in time and interact with the players. GMs should be there to change and mold the political landscape of the game and develop missing features.
Thus to fully role play a character in a MMORPG requires that the features that the character may use according to the character\'s background and profile must exist. You can role play at the moment in PS, but you are still limited in how you can role play. You can\'t for instant do the following:
a knight requires an excellent crafted sword to deal with an annoying dragon (just using dragon as everyone can relate to it) who has been terrorizing the town. Your character is a weapon smith by trade, though occasionally go on small simple adventures as a way to relax and take a break from work. So your character creates the sword for the knight, spending long hours to perfect the weapon, inscribe your insignia on the item for all who admires the weapon that killed the dragon, would know that it was the jolly weaponsmith in the town who created the weapon. Of course the knight would first have to defeat the dragon and not loose or break the weapon in the process. When the knight returns to the weapon smith to have the weapon repair, the jolly weapon smith can boost about his work to his fellow tavern drinkers and strangers showing off the Dragon Slayer sword he created for the knight.
This is why I say role playing for many is taking a back seat as they await for the features to allow them to fully enjoy role playing their character to be implimented, thus there seems to be more power playing as there is not much to do currently. As the features are implimented I do see a shift to become more role playing world and less noticible power playing.
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Wow... you pointed out so many things I would not allow as a GM.... like becoming famous by creating new item (Yeah, right, there are old and expeienced mages all across the world who aren\'t actually famous, but character who just year ago finished being apprentice, became famous by creating something, others couldn\'t... fat chance :P). Or this:
a knight requires an excellent crafted sword to deal with an annoying dragon (just using dragon as everyone can relate to it) who has been terrorizing the town. Your character is a weapon smith by trade, though occasionally go on small simple adventures as a way to relax and take a break from work. So your character creates the sword for the knight, spending long hours to perfect the weapon, inscribe your insignia on the item for all who admires the weapon that killed the dragon, would know that it was the jolly weaponsmith in the town who created the weapon. Of course the knight would first have to defeat the dragon and not loose or break the weapon in the process. When the knight returns to the weapon smith to have the weapon repair, the jolly weapon smith can boost about his work to his fellow tavern drinkers and strangers showing off the Dragon Slayer sword he created for the knight.
With me as GM you aren\'t able to do that either. Go avenge lady, which was robbed by a rogue. That is job for knight. Fighting dragon which is terrorizing whole town? That\'s how I would do it:
first round: Dragon breathes fire and kills the knight.
There. But maybe it\'s because I don\'t GM unrealistic overpowered RPGs like D&D. Wouldn\'t know :P
Anyway after going through many GMing tips this is exactly type of scenario that shouldn\'t be done. Killing a dragon... perfect way to turn your sessions into boring power-leveling campaign.
Small quests not about killing overpowered monsters are much more interesting. This is what I have on mind, and what can be done in PS at the moment:
Retrieve a lost artifact, which was lost somewhere in the wilderness, or maybe passed on through some characters.
Solve a political conspiracy that was going around some characters.
Retrieve an item lost while running away from a creature (Could be done by leaving item at some strong creature\'s legs).
And there are multiple solving possibilities. A rogue might just take the item while the party is fighting off the monster, leaving them for their death and getting prize all by himself.
Those are typical p&p RPG quests. Not some slaughter of a dragon :P
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When I RPGed in real life (paper and pen) I played Rift mostly cause it\'s one of the games where you can play the dragon :))
The good things about dragons is that when they play a blacksmith the knioghts usually bring the scrap metal :)
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Hmmmm...
So where did you get the idea of a year old apprentice creating an artifact from, definitely not from me for I made no reference to age or experience of the characters, just what could be done.
You obviously missed the piece dragon (just using dragon as everyone can relate to it), it could be easily a hill giant, an extra fast regenerating troll, a vampire, etc. I also did not mentioned how experienced the knight was either. The example was to illustrate the idea of character interaction via the exchange of items created by players and used by other players to achieve a goal. I used simple old famous tales of a knight defeating a big bad monster so that power levelers can also understand the idea.
I could have used a political scene, where the character would go to another character (player) to have a forgery made of a document or a false document created to cause discord amongst the members of the court while trying to improve one\'s standing within a secretive organization who run an underground black market of slavery and drugs. How is this possible if the features of creating forgeries, etc are not implimented? How does the player create a forgery to give to another so that that player can carry out his plan of discord and chaos?
How would an alchemist create a love potion for a client, who in turns wants to get two people to fall in love so the family would not loose the house to a lord for some reason (use your imagination please) if the features of creating a potion nor invent a potion type is not present in the game.
You might not like the simplified, but easily understandible by everyone, goals and items I mentioned, they just examples of what can be done in many RPGs easily for the GM can easily create the features at the moment that are needed. Also there is not just one style of role playing that just focusses on political intrigue within a court, there are many from adventuring and exploration to court politics, to becoming famous (most fatansy novels falling to this one) though various deeds, to drunkard tavern talk, to production of items for sale, to everyday living, etc. All this is easy to do in a Pen & Paper RPG than a MMORPG if the features or GM need for role play is not available. Players can only do so much before requiring a GM to create items and features to allow the players to continue role playing their characters.
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Yes, you didn\'t mention age, but creating a new item would require years and years of studying, most likely in library, not by questing. What GM will fall for that?
Originally posted by confused
You obviously missed the piece dragon (just using dragon as everyone can relate to it), it could be easily a hill giant, an extra fast regenerating troll, a vampire, etc. I also did not mentioned how experienced the knight was either. The example was to illustrate the idea of character interaction via the exchange of items created by players and used by other players to achieve a goal. I used simple old famous tales of a knight defeating a big bad monster so that power levelers can also understand the idea.
No I didn\'t. Any monster which is able to terrorize a town (thus has greater power than all the city guards), should be too much to defeat for a single knight. And no matter how experienced the knight is, against dragon - he\'s dead. :P
Unless, as I stated before, you play overpowering system (and having careless GM can be useful too ;))
Also, I believe you can easily roleplay out the exchanging bit...
How would an alchemist create a love potion for a client, who in turns wants to get two people to fall in love so the family would not loose the house to a lord for some reason (use your imagination please) if the features of creating a potion nor invent a potion type is not present in the game.
Buy set of healing/mana potions beforehand and roleplay the rest out. Although the potions aren\'t really needed.
By the way:
I\'ve been fighting in MB although there was no fight implemented. Just by inventing dice-combat system. If you really wanted to roleplay, you would make a dice-jobs system for others to use, instead of wasting time by looking for excuses of why it isn\'t possible.
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Here i present my personel opinion on the situation...
Rping is more fun(dont really want to say better or i would) than power leveling
However let me present you with a scenario:
i generally roleplay fighters just cus everyone else considers them boring hack and slashers and i dont
lets say i was just telling farmer joe my long history(my own history for character) in combat, all of the great battles i had taken part in, and how it was due to extreme cleverness, strength of arms, and no small amount of luck that i stood before him today.
then uber rat of death level one comes by and beats the crap out me so i run away and it kills farmer joe.
how is that rping? personally i call that making an ass of myself...
sometimes in order to effectively roleplay your character(be it fighter, traveling wizard, theif extrordinaitre, or what have you) you must level up until a a certain point and as i tend to not be able to wait to begin screwing around and playing the knight errant, ominous sellsword, helpful ranger , or untrustworthy mage
i will end up...god-forbid 8o... powerleveling for the first few days that i play and then rping with abandon :D
thus showing that rping and pl can and do not only co-exist withen gaming society but sometimes within the same character
However i find endlessly killing rats rather tiresome so i suppose it could be argued that all of those so called \"powerlevelers\" out there are trying to rp the most powerful being in existance thats right all 5,000 of them.
-Tarach
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While I consider this very interesting, this thread isn\'t called \'Thoughts on Game-mastering\'. However if you should decide to continue such discussion in another thread I should very much like to read it.
Equally, discussion of \'What Roleplayers want\' is a related, but ultimately separate discussion. I will briefly address it here, but leave a more complete discussion for another thread.
Earlier I said:
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Roleplayers, conversely, tend to manage with considerably less features, requiring only enough to anchor a reasonable concept of the game world upon.
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With games like PlaneShift the version of the world presented to the player by the server is useful since you can rely on everyone else present to view the world in much the same way. Unfortunately, whenever roleplay requires your character to do something the server doesn\'t support there is an inconsistency. In most cases you simply ignore the inconsistency and continue on, but it would still be nice if the server could reflect such things. It would be nice if you could anchor the events being roleplayed to the events the server recognizes.
How depends, null items (placeholder items), enhanced emotes (\'/greet\' Vs. \'/me\') or more complete interactivity with the world (such as the ability to close doors) are some examples of things that would help anchor roleplay to the gameworld.
At the end of the day a bad craftsman may blame his tools but a good craftsman would still prefer the best.
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Originally posted by Vengeance
I haven\'t heard any coherent descriptions of what the RPers want. What do they want? What are they missing now?
The ability to cut up wood with an axe and make a fire. Also the availability of a tent and the ability to pitch it.
A sideways and diagonal walking and running animation would be nice also. Even the various movements associated with jumping and landing. By the way whats up with enkidukai not being able to jump higher than dwarves lol?
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rp\'ers want to have something to rp with
sitting down, making there own food/weapons/clothings
we want jobs :P
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Originally posted by Draklar
But maybe it\'s because I don\'t GM unrealistic overpowered RPGs like D&D. Wouldn\'t know
Thats one of the reasons why you shouldnt critique about a subject unless you have observed all sides of the issue.
In D&D the game is an association between players and GM. The game rests on the fact that if the GM wants to he could decide to kill you on the next roll.
Please dont assume that because you have played a few games of a different ilk that you know everything about RP.
The fact still remains that people have various schools of thought towards this subject and as \'an experienced RP\'er\' you should realise that fact and take into consideration the different views and aspects that are present.
Either live in a bubble or live as a part of the world....
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Originally posted by Kaseijin
if i free my spirit of graphics entirely ... i will stop playing computer games and stick only to the regular pnp.
In PS I have graphics (good ones /me winks at Devs), nice ambient music, inventory, even monsters I can hunt down with my friends and huge areas to explore, so do you really think that crafting is needed to RP?
need to say more?
Well I surely need, the main reason i am playin PS are Sangwa, Kada, Draklar, Phinehas, Seperot, Moogie, Tybalt of course and anyone who I know from this forum.
PS could have tremendous graphics, a perfectly balanced and exciting fighting sys, crafting, house-building, but without them I wouldnt even think to play it,
Roleplaying is a thing that becomes bigger and better if you share it.
If you Roleplay you will get the place you want, you will become a legend,
Powerlevelers will come and go away, but our stories wont.
Well, I truly believe in the motto of the Ovates (For those who dont know: With a story we can change the world).
[Edit]
Post scriptum: Well Draklar, in my adventures there used to be a dead dragon in the end, but only after hours over hours of getting parts of a puzzle, solving political conflicts, et te cetera, and of course many sacrifices of the players.
[Edit]
Post scriptum: RPGs are, were and will ever be a possibility to have a \"second live\". In real live I am a fat ugly freak with long curly hair and a hang for computers, in Planeshift I am Sirvion Sirullis, last survivor of the great order of the Enk Whar. In Planeshift i am a swordfighter. Slim, With long hair like silk, sharp ears, huge eyes and his albino skin, haircolor and eyes (red ones).
In real life i am dishonoured and used out by the guys in my class. In planeshift I am a honoured individuum.
If someone would be interrested I would gladly set up a PnP RPG round, maybe on MSN, either using ye ol\' DnD, or the great (german) DSA ruleset. Just not before end march, (school should be cooled down till then and my DL limit cooled again.)
If you RP, the Spoiling guy will just be a madman, the PLer will be an ugly brute of a bandit,
If you RP, there will be you and your love sitting on a rock watching the sunset (even if there is neither sitting nor a rock to sit on and the sunset looks wierd cause of some Server problem)
Well as I said Imagination is gods gift to us, what we make with it is our gift to god.
When the first men draw their animals on the walls of their caves and made their hunting hex RPing was born,
and over the ages it advanced and advanced, think of the first theatres, or just the hierachy of mankind at all,
On the ground level we are all the same,
Creatures who want to fullfill their primary needs as good as possible, hunger, thirst, reproduction, sleep and so on.
But we arent the same.
each individuum plays its role in the circle of live, THIS is what seperates mankind of animals, PLers are just animals wanting to be stronger so that they can get more and more.
Well I shouldnt be so mean to the poor animals, should I?
If you want to be a good RPer you have to develop your character even outside of game, thinking of how he would act in certain situations, and so on.
-Sirvion Sirullis
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Originally posted by Bardialus
The fact still remains that people have various schools of thought towards this subject and as \'an experienced RP\'er\' you should realise that fact and take into consideration the different views and aspects that are present.
Bravo! Really nice! Now read up to see that I\'m only defending possibility to roleplay in PS.
Also I am well aware of how D&D works... but what I mean is how strong characters can get in that game :P
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It all depends on the GM, with just a few minutes of work, you made out of the easy to beat Dragon a enourmous thread.
In my adventures the knight, actually DID kill the Dragon (of course not alone, and DID save the lady, but only after a huge campaign, full of sacrifices.
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Well I mean system on its own. There are some that allow you to grow overpowered, while in others it is very hard to kill real beasts even in party of four very experienced adventurers... and even if you do, you most likely end up changed on the inside (mental problems).
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Only things I could interact with were my friends, pencil, paper and dice. Rest was imagination. I believe PS has more to actually interact with.
And saying you need all those features to actually be your character is nonsense.
You contradict yourself. Paper maintains char state. Pencil provides a mechanism to modify that state. Dice (et al) provide a stimulus for modification.
You then keep saying that PS doesn\'t need such things. No need to have state, no need to modify state, no source of stimulus.
I\'m totally baffled. What you describe is already done, and it\'s called \"AIM\"... not PlaneShift. PlaneShift involves char state. Any doubts, press \"i\" for inventory, or \"T\" for stats. Combined, those are your sheet of paper - the char\'s state. That state is intended to have impact on game play. And, that game play is intended to have impact on the state. Remove that state, and you merely have an \"avatar\" based AIM... and from many of the (well typed) \"Use your imagination!\" posts, you really wouldn\'t need the avatars, either.
And that\'s fine - it isn\'t wrong by any means. But that model is completely contrary to PlaneShift\'s current implementation path. Sorry. Toons have state - the devs spent a bit of time implementing it (via inventory and skills) for a reason. The ability to modify that state is also implemented, again rendering your view as not appropriate - once such state is introduced as authoritative, then that\'s it. I\'m not saying you\'re wrong - but one of you (either you, or the devs) must be, since inclusion of state in the game pretty much negates the \"stateless\" concepts you mention. If your arguments are correct, then \"state\" (e.g. player stats, skills, inventory, mobs, combat, spells, and even position in the world) need to be removed. Immediately. All of those things demand state, and flatly contradict the various stateless models that have been proposed.
Coexistence between the two is not appropriate, since both will always contradict each other whenever there is overlap. \"I\'m a master swordsman!\" works in a stateless model... but is contradicted by a sword skill of rank 1. \"I made you a fine sword to fight the evil (insert foe)!\" works in the stateless model - but is contradicted by (a) lack of such sword in inventory, and (b) lack of such sword\'s impact in combat, since it cannot be used in combat against the foe. And arbitrarily inventing a foe who is \"just outside town\" (quite valid in a stateless model) is contradicted by, when you get just outside town, there\'s nothing there. You\'re still free to battle this foe that doesn\'t exist relative to the game state, but again... any result of this battle will be contradicted by the game state - as far as game state is concerned, it never happened, there is no result.
You need to pick one. And from what I can tell, the stateless model isn\'t it. The game involves state - a piece of paper. Remove that paper, or introduce a 2nd paper that contradicts the authoritative one - and the gaming model fails.
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Originally posted by Denivi
You contradict yourself. Paper maintains char state. Pencil provides a mechanism to modify that state. Dice (et al) provide a stimulus for modification.
You then keep saying that PS doesn\'t need such things. No need to have state, no need to modify state, no source of stimulus.
That\'s hardly contradicting :P
Do I have to explain how in both you are given basic tools and how much you\'ll get roleplaying out of it depends on you? :P
Me and bunch of other people from this community were roleplaying on irc. All we needed was system (most of all dice one). You can do same in PS, easily.
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In PS I have graphics (good ones /me winks at Devs), nice ambient music, inventory, even monsters I can hunt down with my friends and huge areas to explore
You didnt read that right.
I am constantly telling to use your imagination to fill the holes.
And for the sword not there,
1.Buy a sword
2.go up to a smithy
3.Do so as if you were smithing a sword
4.there is the sword
And the Foe you are talking about could just be a rogue or a (Damn forgot the name of this huge creature with the, .. Ahh Tsefusang) Tsefusang,
And if you are RPing a swordsman, you will surely train, wont you?
Good now my last word for today, USE IMAGINATION TO FILL THE GAPS.
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darklar... yes you can play on irc sure... that is extanding the possibilities of that software..using the program beyond its original intentional function.
But to gather in tavern in PS with couple of close friends and then playing some game of your own with some system of your own... which no one beyond the circle of friends can understand ... well that\'s kind of misusing PS. It\'s like pulling a car with horses...
weird but i think appropriate metaphore.
maybe what i am trying to say all along...to use two parellel systems...the PS and your own... doesn\'t work...
if (currently) there isn\'t a capability to blacksmithing .... i think it\'s best not to pretend that you can make weapon. Cause once you do... you\'re not playing the same game as everyone else.
Some smaller things can be used without distancing yourself from other players...like imaginary food or drink.
but anything beyond that....no
I mean you could still pretend you\'re mighty enchanter...that\'s ok.... but pretenending to cast spells that don\'t exist....that\'s not playing the same game...
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All we needed was system (most of all dice one). You can do same in PS, easily.
In other words, you needed a means of maintaining (includes tracking and modifying) state.
I\'m not arguing over if it\'s valid or not - it clearly is. What you seem to miss is that once a given state is implemented in-game, you cannot track it with a second source - the game\'s definition of your player\'s \"state\" must be authoritative.
Again, anywhere there is overlap, the game\'s version of \"state\" must be considered authoritative. Anything outside the defined scope of that state is natural for what you suggest - it is, as far as the game is concerned, stateless. Again, sword skill (as a dumb example) - if there is no sword skill implemented in the game state, then it\'s fair game for the imagination. Once it is tracked, however, the game must be authoritative, since *it* is the definition according to the game. I can easily claim that the guy in the magic shop is a master sword trainer before he is implemented, because his existence (or lack thereof) is outside the scope of the game\'s state. Once the game implements a guy in the magic shop, however, my ability to ad-hoc add new attributes to him is severely restricted - I can no longer claim him to be a sword trainer, because the game defines him as not being so... and that *is* the definition that the other 9 billion players will see.
Player death serves as an even more trivial example of why the two cannot overlap. Go pick a fight with a Brigand, and fight him toe-to-toe. Your master swordsman will make quick work of his foul prey, and the Brigand will lose. In-Game representations of the event will be dramatically different, however... including but not limited to your corpse being laid out in the dirt, followed by your not being there *at all* after it pops you to the DR. You can still RP a victory and that the Brigand was defeated, and you survived without a scratch - but in doing so, you flatly contradict the state as defined by the game - namely, that the other 5 people in your party are stuck waiting for you to run your ass back from the City, watching a Brigand stand around with 99% health.
PlaneShift isn\'t an RPG, or an MMPORG. PlaneShift is a state management system, that manages your paper, pen, and dice. Once the paper is used to track something, it must be authoritative in how we, as players, perceive that something. Otherwise, we each have our own sheets of paper, about ourselves (which is fine), and also about each other... and no two will match... if they are allowed to overlap in what they define, they must by definition eventually contradict.
As a paper-based DM, you should certainly know this.
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This thread seems to have shifted from its original purpose. Well, things evolve...
I am a role-player (Mulla) whose best friend is a power leveler (Scotho), we co-exist fine. In fact, he\'s happy to go and find glyphs and $$ for me as long as I help him when I\'m on. Our conversations run half rp/ half \"where do I kill more rats?\". It\'s possible to ask that question in character, by the way.
How do we make this a place that is strongly rp? Well, start a parade, announce storytelling in the tavern, begin political campaigns. One of the posts mentioned quashing a political conspiracy. Why don\'t you START a political conspiracy? I\'d be delighted to get involved as I imagined Mulla as an alchemist/seer with questionable morals anyway.
How about we start a mafia? Organised crime? Organised police? We can self-appoint. Real societies begin by people suddenly declaring themselves in power. Declare yourselves the Sheriffs and attempt to stop dueling in the plaza. Are you waiting for a certificate from the GMs? I think nothing would make them happier than the society shaping itself.
Of course, how exactly does one do this in the current version? Well, you need some sort of power to finagle. (how do you spell that?) One example of that is to get wealthy citizens together and buy up hundreds of weapons, then sell them cheap. BOOM: Economy. Get everyone going to you instead of whats-his-face and suddenly you have power you can bargain with.
Then you get to be mayor simply because everyone knows who you are.
This was part of my plan, but I\'m on a Mac and can\'t play for a while. These are things that can be done right now to set the tone for the game. When things like crafting get implemented, it will get even easier.
Right now, the RP\'s are being limited by imagination. Why are there no power grabs in a city WITH NO LOCAL GOVERNMENT! Have some imagination. Who\'s going to say to you: \"No, you can\'t be the Chief Financial Officer of Hydlaa!\"? If you\'re part of the group that has most of the money, you ARE the CFO.
Why are we waiting for someone ELSE to do it?
So, let\'s get on it! When I\'m able to log back in, I will happily respect the self-declared Hydlaa County Department of Rodent Control.
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Roleplayers... Powerplayers... Noobs... Did you guys actually know that it\'s the same thing? The only thing that differs between these is their approach to things. Where a roleplayer says \"Hello there, fair traveller\", a powerplayer says \"im busy go away\", and a noob says \"giev moneys plz\". But they\'re all doing the same thing really, they\'re playing a game. They\'re being someone they\'re not in real life, and they all do it because they think it\'s fun. Don\'t get me wrong, but I\'m not sure noobs run around halfnaked begging for money because they\'re forced to by society. They just think it\'s fun, just like powerplayers think it\'s fun to be powerful. And is it not true that roleplayers also always are \"the master chef\" or \"the master blacksmith\"? (At least I\'ve never seen any roleplayer ever wanting to be \"the apprentice shoepolisher\" or that kind of thing)
Their only problem is that they want to be a master chef, they just don\'t want to do what it takes to become one, and yes, this is what powerplayers do want to. They just don\'t have what it takes to live out the character they\'re playing.
If you guys just learn to accept that we\'re all the same in one way or another, we\'ll all get along very nicely, and you\'ll learn that even though it might not seem like it at first glance, powerplayers and noobs are actually in character as well to some extent, unless they\'re talking OOC stuff (and you RP guys do that as well, mind you). They might just tell you in a diffrent way than you might tell someone else. So guys, play nicely and stop complaining about how wrong one thing or another is, because it\'s not wrong. :)
(If this post made no sense whatsoever, it\'s because I\'m tired... I might re-write it tomorrow)