PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => PvP,PK and Thieving => Topic started by: Kaseijin on February 09, 2005, 02:55:10 pm
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just one thing...if you implement pking ...and criminal for sake of harsh reality of common honest people, you have to fully implament government and police and jail (remember PS world is structured one not an anarchy) for sake of the harsh reality of a criminal. So basically open pking in my opinion should be offset by the posibility of being caught by npc guards and jailed in a unescapable prison cell...at least for 3 to 4 ..REAL life days..for murder of the innocent and maybe 6 hours for major theft and 1 hour for minor theft.
Ok maybe 3 to 4 days is too long but at least a day...or 12 hours.
if you going to do the crime be prepared to do the time
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It seems reasonable, but the times should be much longer,
2 weeks for foul murder, and maybe 5 Days for a medium theft.
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I think in game times would be better. You could also make public displays of thieves, like a wall of shame where they have to sit in shackles.
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I really like this idea, but it seems very difficult to implement. Wouldn\'t we then need an in-game criminal justice system? Or do we do it Old West style, where the sheriff decides the punishment?
If there are enough players willing to play lawyers and lawmen, this would be cool. Even if the local sheriff becomes corrupt and jails people he doesn\'t like, we\'d still have a pretty neat system.
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2 weeks? What would they do in that time? And gettting caught, as soon as you pk someone, the person you pk will tell the people in charge and instant jail for 2 weeks.
And what if the person was looting or being purposely annoying and you pk them and he tells another story and you are jailed for no reason.
It wont work. There are plenty of other RPG\'s out there that have pk options. Just use their ideas. Or atleast consider them.
The fact this game will be free will draw the players, not its uniqueness, and using another pking system wont stop the game from being unique. I mean one country taking another countires law system doesnt mean that those countries are the same
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Being caught by NPC would work.
But the NPC would have to patrol because pkers would know where the guards were.
It is just the same as having a newbie area which is protected by guards, where newbs can level in peace.
But having NPC guards patrolling different areas is a nice idea.
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Also if the pker was strong enough and the level of guard was random. If they were stronger than the guard maybe they could kill them.
Or if guards patrolled in groups so if you were attacked you could run to the safety of the patrolling guards.
Its an idea you can work with
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Give the guards a really high level. And make it sorta like morrowind. If your strong enough. go destroy all the towns y don\'t you, until you get cornered by 10 guards that it.
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Some of these ideas would not be hard to implement I think.
How about if a player resonds to a PVP challange with a no answer and the aggresive player still attacks, the game should let the battle come to conclusion.
If the agresive player looses the battle the attacked player gets the XP.
If the attacked player dies and goes to the death relm, the agressive player is automatically telleported to the top of the wall of shame and kept there for 7 real life days.
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eh? 7 real life days? don?t you think you?re overreacting a little?... I think that one day should be enough or just a couple of hours... but really a whole week!?
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If i kill some guy out in the woods and nick his gold they arnt going to know it was me, its not like their gona call in CSI and question all the players.
Open pk should be for outside city areas, it would actually create reasons for being in a guild saftey in numbers essentially without pk its like running around in god mode people cant hurt you, they could be tried their best to role play doctor evil yet have to ask premission to their victims to perform evil deeds.
Law inforcement can be handled by people guilds, instead of faking order have people enforce it.
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About the thieving, when they get cought, the old punishment wich works the best cut of a hand with loss of skill lvl or pp. That\'s what they did in medieval times.
Though I do think they\'re should be a way (very expensive magickal way) to get the hand back.
That should be enough to have people think hard if they really want to become a thief.
Public display is a good one too complete with rotten fruit, egg\'s and vegetables :D all we need is a throwing skill :D
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Originally posted by Kaseijin
...at least for 3 to 4 ..REAL life days..for murder of the innocent and maybe 6 hours for major theft and 1 hour for minor theft.
LMAO!
You must be kidding, who in the world would want to PK if you have to wait 4 days to play agian...really stupid(no offence). At worst maybe you have to pay back half of the tria you have on you or something.
But this idea is just a bit too over board..remember not everything has to be \'realistic\' :rolleyes:
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Days, Real days or game days?
If you have Pking, then it is logical to assume that a Pker would run the risk of coming afoul of the law. Prison would be the most logical choice, but instead of being just an inescapable cell, let?s say it is a road crew \"chain gang\" or a Mine or a quarry where one does \"hard labor\". The harder you work, the shorter the time is you spend in Jail.
Just having a period of days to wait through game or otherwise means that the player can just go to one of their other characters and play that one until the time expires that is not really a punishment, just a good reason to develop another character. Instead you want that player to have to attend the misery of his character, thus instead of a sentence of time a sentence of an amount of labor ? in the case of a mine he/she must mine out X amount of iron ore. In the quarry, they must move X amount of stone ? each crime would carry with it a different amount of material. Let?s say the game is averaged at 3 minutes of mining per lump of iron ore. Thus for theft you want the player out of game for 30 minutes you would have him mine 10 iron ores. Say for murder you want him out of game for 2 hours that comes to 40 ores.
Thus the player gets to commiserate with his character and reflect on what s/he did and no matter how long they log out that character the work remains to be done ? therefore they can decide if they want to take the fast way, working hard and meeting their quota, or the long way, working a few minutes each day until they worked off their sentence.
Add a bit of interest. Let?s say that if the player just keeps his character swinging the pick without moving the character the length of time (average) to get an ore is 5 minutes. But if he moves around, picking new locations (thus having to stay with the character instead of going to do something else like watch TV) the time is reduced to 2-3 minutes on average of finding an ore.
Pking should not be strictly considered murder. I assume that the game can pretty much determine who initiated the fight, thus even if the Pker looses he still gets to go to jail while the person who defends themselves get no sentence for what is self defense. We can strike up the knowledge of crime as being a stain upon the character placed there by the Gods or something along those lines. Instead of needing investigation, witnesses, detectives, trial, etc. After all there is magic in the realm, it is easy to assume that some great and powerful magic makes it clear to all who commits a crime.
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Thinking on it for a while, perhaps the best method of insuring justice is to have a percentage of being \"caught\" Say your first crime the percentage of being cught is around 10% - that means 8 out of 10 times you may get away with it. with each progressive crime your chances of being caught increases. Until sooner or later you do get caught.
Thus there is a risk but not a certainty that any crime you commit will end up with you doing time. The risk is yours if you think it is worth it.
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Or give the lawkeepers the power to attack anyone that has been reported for a crime. If they are defeated by the lawkeepers, instead of spawning in the DR, they spawn in the prison for their term. If they can prove beyond the shadow of a doubt (or bribe a corrupt player enough Tria) then the person who accused them will be given twice the time.
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Originally posted by Kaseijin
just one thing...if you implement pking ...and criminal for sake of harsh reality of common honest people, you have to fully implament government and police and jail (remember PS world is structured one not an anarchy) for sake of the harsh reality of a criminal.
if you going to do the crime be prepared to do the time
Ok, Kaseijin, then let\'s try a \"Gedankenexperiment\", to see if your method counters the effect of Player Killing:
1. A newbie enters the game.
2. A griefer waits at some special location, and kills the character (or any other newbie-character) over and over.
3. The newbie thinks \"what a !\", then \"who helps me?\", then wants to leave PS, to never come back again.
4. But, ho!, lucky day: A Gamemaster comes around, and then:
5. Makes the character of the griefer loose a hand, and go to jail for three realtime-hours.
Everything fine?
Ok, the griefer then does this:
1. He intentionally drops his \"imprisoned\" character immediately
2. logs of the game
3. drops his internet-connection
4. logs into the internet again, so to gain a new IP from his provider
5. gets a new e-Mail account at a freemail-provider
6. logs in with a new fake name
7. makes a new character
8. hides with this new character at the same place again
9. has fun with newbies again.
Now, how do you stop this griefer from haunting Planeshift? Hacking off the hand of his character didn\'t help that much... if my Gedankenexperiement is right...
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Of course the logical way to go is to make it to where a Newbie is unattackable until Level X. By that level the newbie should know his/her character and the game well enough to engage in a fair fight. It would be a two way street of course, no new character could attack another player until they reach Level X. Which means they will have to spend a great deal of time killing rats, running quests and leveling their character before they can grieve, pk, etc.
In the instance that you speak, sure the griever could log off, reboot his/her system, get a new IP addy, but if they have to level up to 5, 10 or 20 before they can attack they will be less likely to go through all of that effort. I would assume that what ever Level is decided upon would require a few days of playing, more time/effort to play a new character than it would be to sit/work through any punishment phase for a criminal activity.
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Also, the Plaza could be made a non-Pk zone (which would incidentaly take care of the challenging problem) and a sign could be put up on the way out of the city that the roads to other cities are lawless places full of thieves and bandits, so they should go prepared.
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Originally posted by Ragnar-GD
Ok, the griefer then does this:
1. He intentionally drops his \"imprisoned\" character immediately
2. logs of the game
3. drops his internet-connection
4. logs into the internet again, so to gain a new IP from his provider
5. gets a new e-Mail account at a freemail-provider
6. logs in with a new fake name
7. makes a new character
8. hides with this new character at the same place again
9. has fun with newbies again.
Now, how do you stop this griefer from haunting Planeshift? Hacking off the hand of his character didn\'t help that much... if my Gedankenexperiement is right...
anyone willing to do all this(it takes at least 15 mins) for one measly kill is an idiot... i mean he would would spend more time out of game registering then in game...plus his new character would be weak so he couldn\'t pick on anybody....and if he was to spend three-four hours building up his character he wouldn\'t be so quick to throw it away just to kill a newbie. I deem you objection unsatisfactory.
and i didn\'t mention cutting off hands...that\'s going to far.
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Originally posted by Kaseijin
anyone willing to do all this(it takes at least 15 mins) for one measly kill is an idiot... i mean he would would spend more time out of game registering then in game...plus his new character would be weak so he couldn\'t pick on anybody....and if he was to spend three-four hours building up his character he wouldn\'t be so quick to throw it away just to kill a newbie. I deem you objection unsatisfactory.
Well, such idiots *do* exist. My \"Gedankenexperiment\" is only experimental on how such people would behave to be able to do this in PlaneShift. I\'m not making the description of such people up for myself, I\'m citing from staff at EverQuest that gets paid to deal with such idiots (you can get such descriptions at the Terra Nova Blog of Richard Bartle).
So, it is out of the question that such people exist, and they exist in bigger numbers than you wish for, and that they *can* do and *regularily* do such things, and it is also clear that it is easier in Planeshift then in EverQuest, as EverQuest has much more anti-griefer mechanisms then PlaneShift even intends to implement.
So what I\'m trying to find out, is, what can the devs of PS actually do, to get to the level of protection of EverQuest at least, without the ressources of commercial funding.
The idiots that have been banned from EverQuest (or any other game) are still running around, and guess what I expect when they recognize a game that does not even cost money, and cannot effectively ban?
I\'m not expecting you to have an answer on this, as it really is a non-trivial question - but not taking into consideration these idiots is really calling for trouble.
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Originally posted by Azerelus
Of course the logical way to go is to make it to where a Newbie is unattackable until Level X. By that level the newbie should {be able to} engage in a fair fight. It would be a two way street of course, no new character could attack another player until they reach Level X. Which means they will have to spend a great deal of time {...} before they can grieve, pk, etc.
The intention of a griefer is, by definition, to make you feel bad. Killing your character CAN be a way, but if they can do it without, they will do so happily.
Originally posted by Azerelus
In the instance that you speak, sure the griever could log off, reboot his/her system, get a new IP addy, but if they have to level up to 5, 10 or 20 before they can attack they will be less likely to go through all of that effort. I would assume that what ever Level is decided upon would require a few days of playing, more time/effort to play a new character than it would be to sit/work through any punishment phase for a criminal activity.
Yes, a level-barrier is a good design-barrier, the effect you describe (too long time before they can wreak havoc, so they get bored before, and leave to play elsewhere) is a valid and effective method.
But what is with Players who NEVER want this to happen to them? Should they not be playing Planeshift, because from level X on it could happen to them anywhere but on the plaza?
I\'m just pushing it... ;)
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Originally posted by Jakob
Also, the Plaza could be made a non-Pk zone (which would incidentaly take care of the challenging problem) and a sign could be put up on the way out of the city that the roads to other cities are lawless places full of thieves and bandits, so they should go prepared.
The idea of \"giving approval for PvP\" indirectly by entering a \"clearly labeled danger zone\" is good, as can be shown by the successful implementation i.e. in age of camelot. It is fun, and noone gets pi**ed when his character is attacked, and dies.
But the idea of \"griefing\" is not the same as \"PvP\". Giefers will NOT by any means give you a fair chance, any warning, or anything.
A \"fair\" PvP can mean your character gots a strike from behind, and is dead. Ok, that is the same. But then, a fair Player will say \"Sorry\", and look out for another interesting fight.
A Griefer will, instead, wait for you at your respawn-point, and kill you six times in a row, and taunt you meanwhile, laugh at you, whatever.
So, the question is not:
\"What can we do to enable fair PvP without too much of a hassle?\"
as there are many good answers on that, but:
\"What can we do to quickly identify the idiots, and how to keep them permanently out of the game?\"
(Don\'t take me wrong: I\'m pro PvP! Anyone who likes to duel, single or in team, should be able to, without filling in two sides of approval-forms... having my characters slaughtered in i.e. deathmatches doesn\'t bother me, as long as the others give me a chance to respawn and get some fair shotgun... but this simly is not my subject here... ;-)
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Think about it. A sign saying\" O kill all you like over here but not over there.\" It sounds ridiculous. Where is the logic?
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Originally posted by WizardsRule
Think about it. A sign saying\" O kill all you like over here but not over there.\" It sounds ridiculous. Where is the logic?
\"Clearly labeled\" is not meaning signposts - DAoC just has zones where you can sure to be in PvP area. Did you actually play Dark Age of Camelot? I can\'t say if there is a free trial, but if, you may have a try (only to look for inspiration, and then come back to PS, of course... ;-)
I do not play it, I just visited it for trying out, for a month (like I did with almost all 3D-MMORPGs), and that\'s quite some time ago now.
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First post...
Anyways, im more of Ultima player myself and ive spent enough time in Ultima Online to know that there should be viable way to be \"bad\". Though i never was a \"red\" or a murderer, but lot of times i was getting killed by such. It added whole new \"risk vs reward\" when going out to \"explore\". This is definetely a must.
Why not use UO style \"guarded zones\"/guards?
IMO i liked the Ultima Online system, but training skills such as lumberjacking (etc) wasnt fun, except on some customized servers. I hope PS will make skill training fun and not just boring/repeatitive \"multitasking\". :)
Cheers!
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pking should not be total kill everyone there should be a reason for doing so.
You should get a list of people that have killed you and you should be a allowed to kill them.
you should also be allowed to kill people who steal from you if you notice who it was or people who commit other such crimes against you.
You should also definatly be allowed to loot their body.
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I say we should have the same rules as .hack//sign and that is no rules
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pking should not be total kill everyone there should be a reason for doing so.
Its like robbing banks, they do it because of the money. Naturally PKing is to kill and loot. Personally im not going to play a online rpg that is all \"happy happy joy joy\" and rainbows and flowers... :)
You should get a list of people that have killed you and you should be a allowed to kill them.
Im referring to UO system here. Killing someone turns you into a murderer (red, pk or whatever) which means you are free \"meat\" to anyone. That means that anyone can attack you/kill you without them turning into a criminal/murderer them selfs.
Also \"guards\" will attack/kill any murderers within \"guard zone\" just by yelling \"guards!\" if you see one that is...
To turn back into a non-murderer (blue) you had to wait sometime (time * kills) without killing anyone. Some sort of a \"murder counter\".
I cant remember if UO had any system where \"NPC reds\" wouldnt attack them but i think there should be \"hostile cities\" where only red can run around without getting attacked. Im referring to cities without guards but cities where only reds are able to freely \"explore\".
you should also be allowed to kill people who steal from you if you notice who it was or people who commit other such crimes against you.
Of course, like in UO, failed attempt to steal from someone will mark them as criminal (grey) and by yelling guards they will get killed. That is IF they are within guard zone.
I remember that being criminal also means that you are pretty much \"free meat\" at least towards the one the crime was done to.
You should also definatly be allowed to loot their body.
Yep. :)
Though i hated (in UO) people that steal your loot from your monster that you killed. Though there was some system that \"flagged\" anyone as criminal if they looted stuff from creature you killed, which i think is the way it should be. Though even that isnt completely problem free...
The game should be as free as possible. Both ways (evil or good) should be viable paths, both with its pro\'s and con\'s.
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Well if we copied the WoW system, where there are servers where players can kill each other but more servers where you cant.
Simple as that.
Any1 who wants to kill can join a PvP server at his own risk.
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hhmm I don\'t know I saw a beginning post PK and get jailed for ten days. hmm well for a first offence I would like that I guess, but what if you comitted ten murders and your caught again??? Does this mean your character gets executed? And how do you work around the deathrealm then?
I\'m just sayng murder doesn\'t get punished lightly, but there in lies a problem when having a game.
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LOL
Gedankenexperiment!
LOL!
I have not tried to look it up, but that should be in the dictionary.
I suspect most griefers will not delete there character just because they are jailed for a few hours, or days even. They will most likely stay logged on, go afk, play their X-box, eat, sleep or some other bodily functions and come back later to play.
I would also like to point out what should be obvious, \"griefers\" are not some special breed of people. They are people, usually just trying to get even. When they go to get even, the other person will most likely see this as \"griefing\".
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*is scared of all the people begging to be able kill other people*
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That is exactly the point.
The down side to PvP is that the fun is taken out of the lower levels. The up side is the \"end game\" is more challenging.
PvP is a way of keeping the danger factor in a MMORPG. The typical game starts with having just about anything kill you in the game. You run a lot and you die alot. After a few levels the game gets a lot easier, and the leveling treadmill begins. With PvP you never reach a \"safe\" place. Idealy all levels of play would be fun, and every game developer has there own theory on how to do that.
DAoC is an example of what I am talking about. They created a two part game. The first part is a PvE. You have fun by slaying Mobs. Then once you have \"finished\" with the PvE you go on to the PvP in the realm vs realm part. If it had worked DAoC would be fun at all levels. As you can tell by the *if* part, I do not think DAoC is a great game.
I do not think I have all the answers, more than anything I enjoy the debate. My personal feelings is that games like EQ are going in the wrong dirrection, and games like WoW are going in the right dirrection.
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Okay everyone, look at my post named \"Player government/thief skills/other stuff\" in the wish list
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Originally posted by shorty13
Okay everyone, look at my post named \"Player government/thief skills/other stuff\" in the wish list
This is the post ----->
Okay my idea is pretty big. Once this happens, this game will be awesome. It could also happen in the near future (like next release or one after).
Key ideas needed to be implemented:
1) thief/assasin skills (pickpocket, backstab, hide in shadows, etc.)
2) jobs. especially a \'city guard\' type job. There should also be a limit to this kind of job so everyone can\'t be in it making thieving/being an assasin impossible. (but many people could still be)
3) a system where if you were pickpocketed or backstabbed AND survived the entire encounter (including any fighting resulting from the backstabbing/pickpocketing) a window would appear asking you if you would like to report this to the guards. After a person has been reported like 3-5 times, they would be subjected to the \'guards\' attacking them at free will or by other citizens.
Oy vie,
Thieves will be very happy if they are the only one in the game who can walk up and backstab someone while everyone else has to issue a duel request first. This would be hard core PvP if this how it is done. I like PvP, but I would not want this.
Your system allows 50th level thieves to backstab newbies right after they get off the boat. It would also allow you to kill merchant type players who did not train up their combat skills.
How did you envision your system working? I see only happy thieves with this system, and even they will not be too happy when they are backstabed by another thief.
EXAMPLE:
Someone is a thief. He can pickpocket/backstab anyone he wishes, but can\'t do this to the same person within a certain amount of time. If they fail or are noticed by that person when pickpocketing, the \"victim\" can react by fighting. If being backstabbed and survive, a person can also fight back.
...
If Moogie the great is reading this, when would something like this become possible?
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I dont see what the big deal is.
PKing is part of the game, just make it so that you cant kill aperson that is X (maybe 5) or less levels under you.
Assisns, if they are made, would be exempt from this rule if they are given a job to kill the person (that means, recieve mony for it).
And the guards attackin you to kill you for PKing someone is a dumb idea, instead they should have to try to kill you (givin you the ability to escape), yet if they do kill you, you go to jail for, I belive, a full real day would suffice. Of course, the punishment shoul get like an hour longer each time you are caught.
And lastly, there should be PK friendly town. Meaning, an added town where PKers can use as a hideout from the law yet still all the abilities of a town (of course that would make the town very dangerous for th PKers themselves so they might think twice about PKing and goin into
Well, maybe ts not that simple, but ppl should have the right to PK if they want to. I think its cool.
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Originally posted by derwoodly
I do not think I have all the answers, more than anything I enjoy the debate. My personal feelings is that games like EQ are going in the wrong dirrection, and games like WoW are going in the right dirrection.
Could you explain in deeper detail, what you mean with
1. \"WoW\" is going into the right direction
and
2. Whereas EQ is not?
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Ragnar-GD,
Thanks for reading the post. That comment by me was very subjective.
EQII, seems to be focusing on keeping the monsters (mobs) very strong and forcing you to play the game for several hours a day just to see small amouts of progress. They think by making the game very taxing they will keep the game adicting.
WoW, lets you to level as fast as possible to the upper levels. And lets you log off for a little while and still be able to feel like you are advancing. It has a much more casual game like feel.
[edit: sp]
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I am fully with Mystiqq and his suggestion about UO.
When someone gets killed, he goes through the DR and comes back. But as he saw who killed him, it is realistic to mark the murderer.
So the murderer should be attacked automatically by the guards in special areas like plaza. Outside the safe area there should be a range, to where the guards can here you (now shouting is about 100m). If someone gets attacked within that range and types /sos or /guards or something alike, the guards start and head towards you. When they reach you the game should determine who started the fight and let the guards attack the aggressor. If you are murdered till then and they see the marked murderer, they attack him and hunt him to a defined range (end of area probably).
If the murderer gets catched, he should loose some skillpoints (his finger or something else was chopped),has to pay some money and do some labour.
A wall of shame would be useful at this point, too.
How much of each will be determined by a \"crimecounter\".
The crimecounter decreases with time (as the people forget the crimes), but the higher the crimecounter is, the slower it goes down with time. The second way to lower the counter is to buy \"indulgences\" in a temple.
The third way could be to do some good deeds (as quests).
To protect newbies it is essentially to implement a limit to which they cant be attacked. In Diablo 2 the protection is to level 7.
In PS, I would propose protection to skilllevel 10 on a weaponskill. But as there will be some wise guy who wont skill weapons because of this protection, the protection should be repealed as a char gets his 30 level overall.
About thieves and assassines:
It is not logically to mark someone who successfully backstabs another player. Backstab means that the other player dont know who killed him. With that, the crimecounter should not ascend.
So it is with successfull pickpocketing. Open robbery on the contrary is an open crime, naturally.
How to get assassines and thieves into jail?
At this point a system of justice should be implemented. The medieval justice worked as following:
There were a judge and two honorary assessors.
It rested with the plaintiff to submit evidence. This evidence could be gained through complaints of other players about the accused.
At last the jugde and the assessors vote if the accused is blameworthy. Than the judge finds him guilty or not and if he is, the judge imposes a sanction.
In PS this sanction could be to higher the crimecounter to a certain level. After that the game could automatically choose the defined punishment (as stated above).
What do you think of it?
cu,
Amogorkon
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Well, there wouldn\'t need to be much for a judge since actions are (presumably) recorded. It would be fairly easy to determine who did what to whom. There could be a way to appeal the automatic decision to a human... Of course, Humans don\'t like people wasting their time... So better not to do that frivolously.
Guard patrols is a decent idea. I\'ve seen it used fairly successfully in both text based and 2D MUDs, along with a good number of offline RPGs. Commit a crime in LOS of a guard and become subject to pursuit and imprisonment. Could even have a \"bounty hunters\" guild people could join that would pay players to bring in known criminals. Have guards patrol the roads between cities as well. Newbs and merchants could travel with them in relative safety. The possibility of open player killing would also somewhat reduce the need for sophisticated monster AI.
There should, of course, be a fairly stiff penalty for committing crimes. Jail time, or forced labour is a good start, but not much of a deterant from going right back to a life of crime at any reasonable level. Losing skills is a good idea, but the whole, \"We cut off your hand\" bit seems a bit cheesy... One thing I saw done fairly successfully at one point was making skills based 99.9% on practice. Training was used to get a start in a skill, or to increase skills quickly. After that, simply practicing would increase one\'s proficiency. By the same token however, if one did not practice one\'s skills, they would eventually fade away. Someone convicted of something minor, such as petty theft, would then spend a little while in jail, and have to spend an hour or so building back up. Someone convicted of murder, or armed robbery would spend a lot more time in jail, and would have to put more effort into building back up. If the system were set up on an exponential scale, so that higher skill levels required more practice to maintain, that would help prevent the development of \"uber criminals\" of the type that plague some games, taking on armed parties and fighting the guards to a standstill. It could still happen, but when they got caught, they\'d emerge from jail as wasted individuals who would be no threat to anybody for a considerable length of time. That way they couldn\'t just go out and do it again right away.
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Well, there wouldn\'t need to be much for a judge since actions are (presumably) recorded. It would be fairly easy to determine who did what to whom. There could be a way to appeal the automatic decision to a human... Of course, Humans don\'t like people wasting their time... So better not to do that frivolously.
I agree that actions will be recorded, but where is the rp if a thief could not do pickpocketing without beeing arrested within a short time although nobody except the machine recognized it?
So I think, it is a good compromise to have human judges and an automatic law. I assume there will be some case where the AI cannot act adequate because it cannot record motivations (for example, when someone pays a murderer to kill a person) where it is good that human judges exist (as you said).
Also, in the middleage beeing a judge was a profession. And I think beeing a judge is a great honor (not mentioning the payment)... the perfect job for GMs :-)
Bye,
amogorkon
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If you read Paxx\'s post about open PvP in Planeshift, you should understand the problems with having GM\'s as Judges. GM\'s are not perfect, the chances of everyone liking the GM\'s decission is slim to none.
Planeshift\'s leveling system presents a real problem for implimenting game rules based on levels. If you put all your points into crafting armor then you will not be able to defend yourself against someone who has a similar amout of total progresion points. PS is going for more of a PvE feel to protect crafters and Roleplayers.
Having skills decrease over time discourages the casual game player. For many players PS may not be there main MMORPG that they play. having time based skills will heavly favor the dreded power gamer.
I don\'t like the idea of have PvP take the place of good monster AI. Both NPC\'s and monsters should have the best possible intelegence you can give them. The better the AI the beter the game. Having ultra dumb computer oponents that have to cheat just to be efective is one of my pet pieves and is sure reduce the overall feel of the game. You work hard and making the world pull you into it with 3D graphics and realistic physics, the AI needs to be just as good.
Guards are good, but only as good as the AI, and there is always some kind of exploit of one kind or another. For instance if you one shot kill someone, do the guards attack or not? If your defense is ultra high can the guards even hit you? Do you gain exp if a guard kills you? Can another player attack you while the guards are attacking you?
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If you read Paxx\'s post about open PvP in Planeshift, you should understand the problems with having GM\'s as Judges. GM\'s are not perfect, the chances of everyone liking the GM\'s decission is slim to none.
That is why I suggested to have two honorary assessors as well. The two assessors should be selected by random by the game. It is quite easy to count all players, give them numbers and select two by random. Beeing selected, the two Players should be able to choose, whether they want to be assessors or not. Then the two players should appear at a defined place within a reasonable time. If one does not, the trial has to be suspended.
The effect is: having three different persons who choose whether the accused is guilty or not, it is not only a GM`s job. My proposal to let the judge choose the level of the punishment could be modified: If the accused is found guilty, the three could choose a level of punishment by themselves. I imagine a range from 0 (not guilty) to 100 (lifelong punishment). The three choose a number out of it and the game will calculate the average. The crimecounter of the culprit is set to the resulting number and the game chooses based on the crimecounter the following punishment.
Having skills decrease over time discourages the casual game player. For many players PS may not be there main MMORPG that they play. having time based skills will heavly favor the dreded power gamer.
You are right. When a person can see dropping his skillpoints, it would be very disencouraging. But what about a very slow decrease, which you realise only in days or weeks periods? And to eleminate the demotivation, the game could visibly remember the highest skilllevels achieved. Not enough, these maximum skilllevels can be reached easily by practising the skills again. So the lowering of the skills is only to see as a notifier for the player which skills he doesnt use. That would be more realistic (as you forget over time) , but also encourages players to specialize in specific areas of skills. That would also prevent unrealistic combinations of skills which I have seen in many other games.
I don\'t like the idea of have PvP take the place of good monster AI. Both NPC\'s and monsters should have the best possible intelegence you can give them.
I vote also for the best possible intelligence for the AI. But I think that guarding could be a good job-opportunity for players. It is not recommended to substitute the AI, but wouldnt it be cool to fight with cityguards together against a pack of bandits?
We would only need a board at a central place where you can go and see what jobs are open. You get money each time you catch (kill) someone the AI has marked. Cityguards only get money when they do the job inside the given city while headhunters could make their job also in the wilderness.
For instance if you one shot kill someone, do the guards attack or not?
I would say, it depends on the fact if the victim has seen the attack or not. If not, the aggressor is not marked, so the AI wont attack. If yes, the contrary is the case.
If your defense is ultra high can the guards even hit you?
The guards should adept on the level whom they are attacking. That would be a fair compromise between having fun (the chance to escape) and justice.
That should answer the question about the defense.
Do you gain exp if a guard kills you?
Why should you gain xp when you get killed? The contrary should more be the case...
Can another player attack you while the guards are attacking you?
What would the police do, if you would take out a weapon in order to kill a person which got caught by them? You would be attacked also.
I would propose that all cityguards form one local group. So NPC and PC would attack together, but only in order to \"catch\" the aggressor. Never interfere with the law... (may it only in order to help :rolleyes: )
Bye,
amogorkon
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Currently the dueling method of PvP that PS has is realy not PvP at all. It is good that it is there, but it does not give the game the same feel as a Shadowbane (this is not bad in my opinion).
Implimenting an option to attack players who turn down your duel request would be a form of PvP light. If the attacker was automatically sent to the wall of shame for a week or month (this means you could not loot your victom either). You would still get pkers. It seems like a long time but keep in mind you have 4 charter slots and can still play WoW durring that month.
If instead of going dirrectly to the wall of shame you had to wait for some kind of court to form I would agree that it would be more of a PvP game. I have some questions reguarding how it would work.
could you kill more players while you were waiting for your court case? or would you be stuck in a purgetory while players organized? If the \"Judge\" just ignored the claim, would the player be stuck for ever?
Originally posted by amogorkon
That is why I suggested to have two honorary assessors as well. The two assessors should be selected by random by the game. It is quite easy to count all players, give them numbers and select two by random. Beeing selected, the two Players should be able to choose, whether they want to be assessors or not. Then the two players should appear at a defined place within a reasonable time. If one does not, the trial has to be suspended.
The effect is: having three different persons who choose whether the accused is guilty or not, it is not only a GM`s job. My proposal to let the judge choose the level of the punishment could be modified: If the accused is found guilty, the three could choose a level of punishment by themselves. I imagine a range from 0 (not guilty) to 100 (lifelong punishment). The three choose a number out of it and the game will calculate the average. The crimecounter of the culprit is set to the resulting number and the game chooses based on the crimecounter the following punishment.
I really ment to say, if you kill the guard, my bad.
Do you gain exp if a guard kills you?
Why should you gain xp when you get killed? The contrary should more be the case...
I mentioned this because the NPC guard is very popular on this forum, but if you can kill guard and get experience from it then, the guards may be dead when you need them to arrest the Pkers.
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Implimenting an option to attack players who turn down your duel request would be a form of PvP light. If the attacker was automatically sent to the wall of shame for a week or month (this means you could not loot your victom either).
It would be very disencouraging for peaceful people being looted... Instead I would propose (like in Diablo 2) to loose a certain amount of the money you carry at the moment. This money would lay on the floor, free for everyone. I believe it would be fair to implement this mechanism for all sorts of pvp.
The wall of shame should show all outlaws which can be killed by everyone without challenge or fair treatment. The restriction which prevents players to attack something/somebody beeing already under attack should neither apply for attacking outlaws. But only guards and head-hunters should be able to catch an outlaw (by killing) to bring him to justice.
could you kill more players while you were waiting for your court case?
Good question. Probably it would be best (because most realistic) to keep the accused in arrest without any further punishment while waiting for the court. But to keep the interest in the game, the accused should be able to contact others, trade with others, perhaps even mine some resources in the arrest. And of course.. a chance to escape. This could be implemented over the digging. If the convicted is digging a lot at the right place, there could be a chance to find a tunnel. Of course the crimecounter should rise again when using it.
If the \"Judge\" just ignored the claim, would the player be stuck for ever?
Of course not. In RL you neither cant be arrested without court case for ever. Here in in Germany it is law that you can be kept in custody without any reason only for two days. I dont know whether it is different where you live.
Beeing arrested without court case is also a sort of punishment. So if a judge ignores you, the easiest way for fair treament is to limit the time beeing in custody without trial. On the other side, your crimecounter goes down with time and the longer you are in custody, the higher is the probability to find the tunnel.
I really ment to say, if you kill the guard, my bad.
Could you explain that?
but if you can kill guard and get experience from it then, the guards may be dead when you need them to arrest the Pkers
That is right. For killing guards you get xp, that is only logical. But since I propose guards which adepts their skills to the target, guards are not easy to kill...
Neither they should have anything to loot in order to prevent players to attack them only for getting money.
cu,
amogorkon
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Originally posted by amogorkon
It would be very disencouraging for peaceful people being looted... Instead I would propose (like in Diablo 2) to loose a certain amount of the money you carry at the moment. This money would lay on the floor, free for everyone. I believe it would be fair to implement this mechanism for all sorts of pvp.
Just gettting killed is disencouraging for peaceful people (both in real life and in game :P )
The wall of shame should show all outlaws which can be killed by everyone without challenge or fair treatment. The restriction which prevents players to attack something/somebody beeing already under attack should neither apply for attacking outlaws. But only guards and head-hunters should be able to catch an outlaw (by killing) to bring him to justice.
I actuctually thought that the \"wall of shame\" would be a wall that the players would be attached to. I don\'t think that just having your name up on a wall is punishment enough. It has been said before, but I will repeat it. Pkers will not stop just because their name turns red and everyone can attack them. I believe that the other posts were refering to a system where the victor of a non-consentual duel would be instantly teleported to a jail or tower or stockade, and be locked up for a period of some time. Some suggested a few hours. Others sugested days. I would suggest a week. I am talking about a \"PvP light\" system. I know it is restrictive. I believe that was the intent of the original post. Some of my earlier posts were about a more hard core system, but after reading Paxx\'s post I am trying to soften that aproach.
could you kill more players while you were waiting for your court case?
Good question. Probably it would be best (because most realistic) to keep the accused in arrest without any further punishment while waiting for the court. But to keep the interest in the game, the accused should be able to contact others, trade with others, perhaps even mine some resources in the arrest. And of course.. a chance to escape. This could be implemented over the digging. If the convicted is digging a lot at the right place, there could be a chance to find a tunnel. Of course the crimecounter should rise again when using it.
I had envisioned the \"accused\" locked up in a small cell. In this case, you could use the chat channels, but trading would not be allowed. At this point I do not think the Judge/Jurry system would work. The accused could be stuck in a cell untill a judge and jurry were put together. I believe most players would decline a request to become a Jurror. I imaging hunting rats in the sewer and getting several pop-up jurror reqests and declining all of them because I am trying to get my Axe skill to level 200, so I am not killed so quickly by Pkers. With the Jurry system the pker gets to cause grief twice, first the kill, second the trial!
If the \"Judge\" just ignored the claim, would the player be stuck for ever?
Of course not. In RL you neither cant be arrested without court case for ever. Here in in Germany it is law that you can be kept in custody without any reason only for two days. I dont know whether it is different where you live.
Two points here, first PS is not set in modern day Germany. Second, nobody is going to sit arround for two days while in game. They will log off. When the court is finally conviened I am sure the accussed will be off line or afk, something that just does not happen in real life.
I really ment to say, if you kill the guard, my bad.
Could you explain that?
I made a mistake in my orginal post. I asked a question about what happens when a guard kills you. I should have said it the other way arround. What happens when you kill a guard. To this question, you have allready said that you should get experience points for it. The guard killing issue is getting off topic, but my whole point was that I can imagine a day when the Pkers can kill the guards and rule a city. Maybe you think that is realistic, but I think of that as more of a \"hard core\" PvP system. For this reason I think it better to just insta-teleport you to the Jail.
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Just gettting killed is disencouraging for peaceful people
But then additional being looted would be a real shock, I believe.
I believe that the other posts were refering to a system where the victor of a non-consentual duel would be instantly teleported to a jail or tower or stockade, and be locked up for a period of some time.
How would you explain that in RP?
Others sugested days. I would suggest a week. I am talking about a \"PvP light\" system.
PvP light in a world where a war is going to start?
PS is situated in the middle age! In this time duels and fights have been daily business!
but trading would not be allowed.
Agreed. But as the custody before trial shall not be seen as punishment, the player should have the possibility to be productive in any way while waiting for the trial.
I believe most players would decline a request to become a Jurror.
I dont believe so. Many people are honored to become a jurror (and if they only want to punish a pker). If that wont be enough, there is also the possibility to pay a jurror. And if there is really nobody who wants the job... luck for the accused. Maybe the one who declined will be killed next...
first PS is not set in modern day Germany.
You are right, but would you really like to go back to the justice of the middle age? That would be most realistic, but impossible to implement. The contrary would be a fully automatic justice. But then you will have problems to explain it in RP. So we have to make a compromise like I proposed. The comparison with German justice was only for orientation. (And I meant 2 ingame-days, not RL). So my proposal can be seen as really soft, but please consider the gaming fun. Players shall not leave the game cause of ip-blocking or something harsh like that. Best is, when all the players are able to accept the justice as it is and do know that they can rely on fair treatment if they do something against the law. Fair treatment must also include the need of the accused. And this need is also to be allowed to enjoy the game.
They will log off. When the court is finally conviened I am sure the accussed will be off line or afk, something that just does not happen in real life.
Thats the problem with the proposals where the char should be kept in a cell without something to do. The justice in this game should enforce the player to overthink his actions and not to log off. Perhaps there could be a penalty when logging off in custody?
I also think the proposals to dig for some resources in custody is a good way to keep the player logged on and with that the player cannot easily go afk.
I actuctually thought that the \"wall of shame\" would be a wall that the players would be attached to.
You want a pillory, do I understand you right?
In the middle age this method was a \"honorary punishment\" for low crimes. Why not? This sort of punishment could be chosen from the game when the crimecounter is not too high. How would you name then the place where the names of the outlaws is shown?
The guard killing issue is getting off topic, but my whole point was that I can imagine a day when the Pkers can kill the guards and rule a city
They probably will try it... But the guards are coming back and are everytime equal in there skills. I dont believe the pkers will have much time to rule ;)
Perhaps there could also be a variable spawning-point which spawns as much guards as pkers are in the city?
cu,
amogorkon
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Starting a new player and going to the trouble of doing it, is also some of the punishment. Some thieves are always thieves.
Maybe a Player should have to be branded somehow. Maybe wear a icon showing the offense.
Felix :D
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Starting a new player and going to the trouble of doing it, is also some of the punishment.
I`d rather kick the whole game than starting a new char all over again... nevertheless there ARE people who wants to play \"evil\" chars and they want to do it in RP.
Some thieves are always thieves.
And I personally like to play a thief (perhaps you know Dark Project?)...
Maybe a Player should have to be branded somehow. Maybe wear a icon showing the offense.
Im referring to UO system here. Killing someone turns you into a murderer (red, pk or whatever) which means you are free \"meat\" to anyone. That means that anyone can attack you/kill you without them turning into a criminal/murderer them selfs.
Quod vide post from Mystiqq...
Bye,
amogorkon
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Most of the things I\'m hearing here would be fairly simple to deal with...
The objection about fading skills giving an unfair advantage to people who play all the time would be solved by only having them fade when a player is online. Personally I\'ve always liked those kinds of systems because it keeps a player\'s skills in realistic groups.
Thieving: I am taking this to mean picking up something that somebody has set down with the obvious intention of retrieving later. The thing to do here would be to have the guards take notice if they see player X picking up something that\'s labeled as \"obviously belonging to player Y\" The label could fade over time so eventually dropped objects would become fair game.
Pickpocketing: Ok, so you pick someone\'s pocket. The idea being that they won\'t notice. Make the possibility of them or the guards noticing based upon the pickpocket\'s skill and the size and weight of the object. Lifting a mushroom off someone wouldn\'t be that difficult. Stealing the sword out of their scabbard without them noticing would be a major undertaking. When a player notices that something has been stolen they can report it to the guards. Make the odds of the guards figuring out who did it based upon the time elapsed and the distance to which the thief has fled.
Player Killing: Make it based on who sees it. Walk up to someone in the main square and stab them in the back, and chances are that you\'re going to be seen by the city guards. If you\'re good, you might be able to escape, but they\'ll be looking for you for a while to come. Lure someone into a back alley and off them there, and it\'s possible that noone will ever know. The main areas of the cities, and the patroled roads would remain fairly safe, while the slums and the wilderness could easily play home for those players who enjoy the \"evil\" side of role playing games, and become hunting grounds for players who want more of a challenge than the average AI monster can provide. (Face it, AI monsters are never quite as smart as a live opponent.) Crimes committed without guards seeing could be brought to trial and human witnesses could give testimony... The designers would have to decide whether or not they wish to allow false testimony... Could make for an interesting dynamic... \"Pay us 10K or me and my buddies will frame you for murder...\" I can also see it being abused a lot though, so perhaps just say that two witnesses who\'s story agrees with the game\'s record are enough to bring charges.
Punishment: Either time in a small jailcell, or time at a task. Time in a jailcell would result in more skill atrophy, time at a task would require that they actually do something other than just log in and go watch a movie while they wait... Perhaps an option to shorten your sentence by working? Would take some experimentation methinks...
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I agree with most of what you say :)
There are a few things I would like to emphasize:
I am taking this to mean picking up something that somebody has set down with the obvious intention of retrieving later.
That should of course include things stored in chests or something comparable.
But this mechanism could make some troubles when you consider that you sometimes put a thing down with the intention that a friend will get it later. So a mechanism would be nice to \"stick a notice\" on the thing you put down, in order to prevent misunderstandings (from the ai).
so perhaps just say that two witnesses who\'s story agrees with the game\'s record are enough to bring charges.
You think that a GM should compare the records with the stories?
Time in a jailcell would result in more skill atrophy, time at a task would require that they actually do something other than just log in and go watch a movie while they wait... Perhaps an option to shorten your sentence by working? Would take some experimentation methinks...
Yep. That is certainly the most difficult problem to solve.
bye,
amogorkon
Edit:
The last problem could be solved as a combination between skill-atrophy and forced labour. In jail the atrophy is highered. You could just sit around and be afk or shorten your sentence by work. But while you work your skills will also drop down. So you could see the time in jail as a fight against time... And when a criminal gets out, he has also to train again to successfully commit a crime...
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GMs or some other appointed judges could review cases which have only human witnesses. Or, make it so that when one witnesses a crime, one has the option to report it next time one finds a guard. Provided, of course, that one has not been killed in the meantime. That would probably be a better option as it would place less strain on the GMs. Save their time for appeals of complicated cases involving revenge, preemptive self-defence, and that kind of thing. This would also bring up the possibility of blackmail if a crime is witnessed by a human... He could threaten to report it if he\'s not paid... Should therefore be a \"statute of limitations\" on reporting crimes, like a week or so, to keep it from getting out of hand. Of course, the blackmail target could always simply kill the blackmailer... :D
Might be a good idea to make the guards tend to gravitate toward high crime areas to a limited extent as well. Would force criminals to occasionally change ambush spots...
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that when one witnesses a crime, one has the option to report it next time one finds a guard.
That wont be easy to implement, since the guards dont understand the logic of human language...
Provided, of course, that one has not been killed in the meantime.
Hm, why not? When you die in PS you don`t forget things happened before death.
This would also bring up the possibility of blackmail if a crime is witnessed by a human... He could threaten to report it if he\'s not paid...
That is, of course, a greater problem but has also some positive aspects, i agree :)
Should therefore be a \"statute of limitations\" on reporting crimes, like a week or so, to keep it from getting out of hand.
Agreed.
Of course, the blackmail target could always simply kill the blackmailer...
That is bad. Players could be getting stuck in vicious circles. This would be of course realistic... but probably not really fun...
If you want to keep the fun but also the option to blackmail someone, it should be officially implemented to possibly have the option to restrict it, if it is needed.
The question is how to realise that.
Might be a good idea to make the guards tend to gravitate toward high crime areas to a limited extent as well. Would force criminals to occasionally change ambush spots...
Yep, that would be nice, but how could the AI figure out where the \"high crime areas\" are?
I have an idea about the backstabbing:
The effect of backstabbing is that the victim dont know who killed him. But since there are different camera-views, the player of the victim could be able to see the name of the attacker, although the char is not seeing him. That would produce a paradox situation: The player knows who killed him, but he would have to pretend in RP that he wouldnt.
So my proposal: The assassine must start his attack outside a specified radius (in RP explained as \"he must sneak to his victim without beeing seen or heard\" ), plus he only could start it, if the victim (-char) does not look in his direction. If those two conditions are fulfilled, the assassine starts an automatic attack, which can be intercepted by the player, but the player cannot do anything else while the automatic sequence is running.
While in backstab-modus, the char is moving without noise to the victim and tries to keep in an angle where the victim cannot see him. Also the name of the attacking char is not visible to the victim, while in this mode. If the backstab is successful, the killing should beeing recorded for everyone visible as \"??? backstabbed Player XYZ\" or simple \"Player XYZ got backstabbed\". Of course, \"inofficially\" the assassines name should appear in the server-logs.
Then there would be also some subtleties about the backstab-modus and when it fail...
amogorkon
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Right now NPC\'s don\'t move at all, and in other games they have a hard time going from point A to point B! and you want them to track down thieves in a realistic manor?
Sever logs? What do you think is in them, and Who exactly is saposed to fish through 100\'s of Megabytes of logs to find the information that your looking for?
You have gone from a complicated 21st century judge and jurry system in a sword and sorcery setting to a AI CSI type of NPC guard.
Did I miss something? Maybe I just don\'t know how good computers are these days, but I don\'t think PS is quite ready for that kind of system.
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Right now NPC\'s don\'t move at all
Are the monsters not moving?
through 100\'s of Megabytes of logs to find the information that your looking for?
I think GMs are well suited for this task. GMs have to search the logs also when someone reported bug-exploiting or similar ... Why not using it for these suggestions?
When you have to search the logs for a case like thieving just search for \"[name of the accused] [*successfully stolen]\"... certainly there are some regular expressions and so on as I know it from Linux. Searching complex system logs is pretty easy when handled right, why not searching game logs?
You have gone from a complicated 21st century judge and jurry system in a sword and sorcery setting to a AI CSI type of NPC guard.
Thats not completely right. The suggestion with the judge and the assessors came from a system as it existed in the middle age. And because there are some non-trivial cases, even in such a game, humans should have the option to override the AI.
Maybe I just don\'t know how good computers are these days, but I don\'t think PS is quite ready for that kind of system.
A computer is only as good as the user behind it. There are many things which are not implemented yet but can be played as RP. And PS is just starting... if we dont think about such systems now, it will probably be too late afterwards...
/me is falling asleep
n8,
amogorkon
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I usually make a distinction between NPC\'s and Mob\'s. NPC\'s are trainers, quest givers, guards, and merchants. Mob\'s are monsters or bad guys who sole purpose is to be killed by players.
I doubt that GM\'s really want to sort through log files. Actually, I doubt that there really is log files to begin with. The server saves your location, inventory, and stats, perodically and when you log out. Chat and sytem messages are not stored to my knowledge.
Medevil Justice involved torturing you untill you confessed of the crimes you were accused of and then executing you for commiting those crimes.
I think it is time for the Gedankenexperiment! I will play the part of the \"griefer\" you can tell me how your system will control me. As background, my character will be named Yack Blacktooth. Untill I get his armor skill to 10 and his sword skill to 50, I will be a \"good guy\". Then I will rollplay Yack as unskilled thief who just kills his victoms and then robs them. I will attack using the non contestable duel that was mentioned at the begining of the post. I will choose easy targets in the sewer. First I will observe how much damage they inflict on a rat, if it is low then I will kill them. As there are no guards in the sewer I should not have a problem with getting arrested. When the victoms make it out of the death realm they will of cource want to have me arrested. That is if they even know that feature exhists. Once arrested I will claim that the rat that they killed was a pet of mine and I was so disturbed by his death that struck out blindly. While we are waiting for our court date I will go back to the sewers and do it again. I think I could kill 5 to 10 newbies in the time it takes to put a court together. Once convicted I would make a macro for the keystrokes it took to do the prision work and go eat lunch, or play the X box, or rent a movie or whatever. Then repeat the whole process.
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Medevil Justice involved torturing you untill you confessed of the crimes you were accused of and then executing you for commiting those crimes.
Yep, but torture is impossible to implement, I think so we have to get around this with modern means.
I think it is time for the Gedankenexperiment!
Alright :)
I will choose easy targets in the sewer.
As I mentioned some time before In PS, I would propose protection to skilllevel 10 on a weaponskill.
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So you cant attack really fresh newbies.
As there are no guards in the sewer I should not have a problem with getting arrested.
No computer-played guards, right. But there are also Guards and head-hunters played from humans.
Once arrested I will claim that the rat that they killed was a pet of mine and I was so disturbed by his death that struck out blindly.
Maybe this will work one time... ;)
While we are waiting for our court date I will go back to the sewers and do it again.
When you are accused, you are arrested into security-custody while you are waiting for your court date.
Once convicted I would make a macro for the keystrokes it took to do the prision work and go eat lunch
This is probably a good idea... I wish happy programming because you have to move while you are working... (compare it with /dig as it is now).
I am curious to read your answer :)
cu,
amogorkon
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gedanken experiment; thought experiment to wonder at.
Ha ha ha ( I am laughing at my own dumb luck), Your reply about the gedanken experiment got me wondering. I originally thought it was some sort of made up word that Ragnar-GD had used as a joke. A look on the German to English translator revealed that it fit the conversation to a T and made me look like I understood German!
Ok back to the topic.
You rule about the skill system protects newbies but it does not protect crafters. They will most likely have high total skill but a low weapon skill. If this is the case Yack Blacktooth will have to do one of two things. One, get much better at sword fighting, skill level of 100 or more and attack players in Oja city as they are killing rouges. Two find new hunting ground, some place that crafters like to hang out at but away from guards. However, since crafting in PS at the current time is not popular Blacktooth will have to use option one untill crafting is popular then cut down crafters like wheat on harvest day.
Your rule about being held captive while in custody, is a bit different than what I thought you said earlier. This makes getting caught a bad thing. Blacktooth would not want to rob people so blazenly then. You said something about player guards patrolling the sewers. Blacktooth would enlist. Now as a patrolling guard he could just half kill players, loose the battle on purpose then hunt them down with the blessing of the establishment.
When the whole plan backfires some how, then I will need a whole pile of trump up excuses... I did no such thing! Am-heh made me do it! Really he started it first! My parrents are being held captive and I need 10,000 Tria to free them... help me please!
P.S. don\'t be a big hurry to read my answers. With kids, and holidays and summer, I may be doing other things then web crawling.
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A look on the German to English translator revealed that it fit the conversation to a T and made me look like I understood German!
:D
I think the word \"Gedankenexperiment\" is gotten popular with Einstein.
What you imagine is the worst, not the common case... but I think it is good to test it out :)
You rule about the skill system protects newbies but it does not protect crafters.
That is right. The reason for this rule was the consideration of a guy who utilizes the protection for people with weaponskills under a certain limit (10, as I proposed) to make an easy life...
Crafters are surely some of them who would want such a protection, but that would give away the pressure to create cooperations and it would take some excitement out of the game, isnt it?
One, get much better at sword fighting, skill level of 100 or more and attack players in Oja city as they are killing rouges.
The moment pvp is introduced there will be guards in oja city as well. I think most of the cities will be \"peace zone\" with guards and everything...
Two find new hunting ground, some place that crafters like to hang out at but away from guards.
You are right. And that will be the reason for cooperations between fighters/(human) guards and crafters. And of course the danger will have some effect on the prise ;)
Blacktooth would enlist. Now as a patrolling guard he could just half kill players, loose the battle on purpose then hunt them down with the blessing of the establishment.
Good point. Then I have to ask you whether Blacktooth started the fight or not. If yes, he would loose his job, but would not be marked as criminal because he lost the fight, the winner would not get marked neither, because he did not started it... If not, it is only right that the person who killed him gets marked and punished.
then hunt them down
Them? I would think a griefer will just go after single ones, not a whole group... But if they attack him... he got the right to revenche himself, hasnt he?
I did no such thing!
Bad excuse ;) You cant say the logs are lying...
Am-heh made me do it!
Hard to verify that, but the best means are again the logs...
My parrents are being held captive and I need 10,000 Tria to free them... help me please!
Why are you killing people then? :tdown:
You see, the logs arent necessary for most cases but for the worst case it is good to have them :)
P.S. don\'t be a big hurry to read my answers. With kids, and holidays and summer, I may be doing other things then web crawling.
Sorry to answer that fast ;)
I wish happy holidays!
amogorkon
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I am trying to imagin the worst, but since I normally do not play this way, I am sure my worst is not the actuall worst there is. Heh, I read that article that Ragnar posted, I know I have not imagined the worst.
The system you are describing, would make Player killing difficult with the conditions you have described. Yack Blacktooth would have to be very selective if he really wanted to have some fun while bahaving badly. First, he would have to attack players with a skill level over 10. Since you can not see level he would have to go to an area with monsters that require that level of skill to kill. Second, you mentioned that guards would be largly human players just looking for an excuse to put Yack in shackles. I suspect there will be times that there are not that many guards on watch. Having an alt with a good alignment would be helpfull. I would have to log on Greenwood Goodhand and kill rats in the sewers untill I notices a time when guards were scarce. You might think guards will be on duty all the time, but I think they would get bored watching newbie\'s kill rats all day long. So, when they do Yack Blacktooth will apear out of thin air (logon) and kill quickly then log off before he is tagged by a guard.
Luck can also help out. Sometimes accidents do happen. By standing arround in the sewers player might accidently attack Blacktooth instead of monster. Now he can kill the newbie without a PK flag at all.
Sometimes the jail would be worth it. If a player is holding one of those priceless mugs, then I may want to kill the player loot the Mug and let the court decide my fate. Of cource I would make sure not to be online for the next two weeks, just to cause the victom more pain. What would be the maximum sentance? What if I loot and and not log back on for a month? Does the GM just remove the item from my inventory.
Festivals would be mayham. If a large scale event were to happen, like an election, Blacktooth and anyother thug would be there in full battle gear to mow down the crowds!
On the issue with logs, I do not know for sure but I think it would slow the sever down. The server has to keep track of evey players and NPC\'s, stats, actions, location, buffs, dots, equipment, quest status, and chat commands. All of this is done in RAM, In order to have a log of the events, the server would have to save all of this data to harddrive. If the computer saves all of this data once a minute to the hard drive then you will have a log with only updated information every minute. The log would look like this.
12:30 22/6/2005-- Blacktooth, Inv-- two rusty long swords, loc-- 01001001,111010, commands- nill
12:31 22/6/2005-- Blacktooth, Inv-- two rusty long swords, Mug of destruction, loc-- 01001011,111000 commands- bind wounds, chat-- Hahahah, foul smelling dwarf I have your Mug!
My point is this, if you want to tell what happend the server will have to save information on the hard drive not just keep it in ram memory. Saving this will lag the server. If it does it every minute it is possible to kill inbetween the minutes. If it did it every second the lag would be considerable and looking a log that showed every second would be more like work, than playing a game, and GM\'s would not want to do it. the
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I suspect there will be times that there are not that many guards on watch.
You think about preventive security, dont you? I dont imagine guards on guard all the time, thats right. The \"watching\" does the machine by automatically marking, the hunting and catching is the duty of the guards.
So there is effectively no difference if Yack would pk in front of a guard or if the victim is the only witness (I do not refer on backstabbing here, I am talking about unfair duelling). In both cases he would be marked first and then hunted by guards... the only difference is the time to the guards need to catch him.
Sometimes accidents do happen.
It is impossible to create a system without the possibility to fail... But we can minimise this risk.
What if I loot and and not log back on for a month? Does the GM just remove the item from my inventory.
THAT is exactly why I proposed (like in Diablo 2) to loose a certain amount of the money you carry at the moment. This money would lay on the floor, free for everyone.
and not beeing able to loot somebody.
What would be the maximum sentance?
Hm... lifelong compulsory labour? No idea... I dont have practical experience with this system yet ;)
Festivals would be mayham. If a large scale event were to happen, like an election, Blacktooth and anyother thug would be there in full battle gear to mow down the crowds!
That would be fun! :) *just remembering the attack of the ulbers*
On the issue with logs, I do not know for sure but I think it would slow the sever down. The server has to keep track of evey players and NPC\'s, stats, actions, location, buffs, dots, equipment, quest status, and chat commands.
Not exactly. I asked a dev whether all actions are logged all the time. He answered me that this is not the case but when somebody does a /report on a specific player, everything from this moment will be logged about him. So I asked if an attack without challenge could be linked with the /report command and he approved. With that it could be possible to create a log only containing pk without challenge (also backstab) and maybe also stealing.. Just that what we need here :)
bye,
amogorkon
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It would actually be fairly simple. Your \"evil\" character goes down into the sewers where there are no guards and begins killing newbies... Newbie goes through the death realm and back to the surface. When he walks past a guard, his client remembers that he had been killed, and pops up a query box, \"You were murdered by Yack Blacktooth, do you wish to report this crime? Yes/No\" If he clicks yes, then Mr. Blacktooth is now stuck in the sewers, marked as a criminal. Backstab would be a good idea, as long as it only works if he manages to sneak up behind the other guy without being seen. If he comes out of the sewers any nearby guards will grab him and toss him in jail. If he stays in there, eventually the reward for his capture will become large enough that a headhunter will consider it to be worth the effort to go down there and hack him into kibble... When he comes back from the death realm, the guards will be waiting to grab him and toss him into prison. Either way, it\'s going to be bad for him. If he\'s really strong and really fast, he might be able to get past the guards, but he\'d have to leave the civilized areas, or risk capture every time a guard wanders past. If he leaves, the headhunters will eventually find him again. If skills atrophy without practice, then you can go ahead and make a macro to do the prison work. When you get out, you\'ll be a highly skilled miner/ditch digger/manure shoveler, but you\'ll have to spend some time honing your fighting skills again before you can go back to killing newbs. It would become quite a lot like being a real outlaw.
The guards wouldn\'t have to be very smart to make this work. A simple, \"see criminal, chase, grab\" would be sufficient. Make the guards faster than most players. A smart player might be able to elude them for a while, but there are more of them than there are of him, and there are certainly a couple standing by the city gate... So to truly escape he\'ll have to jump off the 100\' town walls... Not fun...
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@ Perkins: Fairly simple in my book is Pac Man. Maybe for you the Justice system is simple, but for me Amog\'s sytem seems like a moving target.
@ Amogorkon, I thought I understood your system 5 or 6 posts ago. Now I am lost. This is the way I understand it too work now.
It all begins with the new option to attack other players without them getting the option to decline. Then several things can happen.
1) The victom escapes:
-- A log of the event is generated automatically by the server.
-- The victom can complain but since nothing was stolen and they were not killed, no crime was commited.
2) The victom fights back and wins.
-- Same results as 1, except some of the attackes money is droped from his corpse and is left on the ground.
3) The Victom fights back and scares the attacker off.
--Same result as 1.
4) The attacker wins:
-- The victom drops some bit of random loot but the rest is sent with him to the death realm.
-- A log is generated.
-- If a guard sees the attack they can chase the attacker down and capture him.
-- If no guards are arround the victom must report the crime. After that a bounty is placed on the attackers head and any guard can arrest him.
-- If captured, The attacker waits up to two game days for a trail.
-- If a trial is not started with in the two days the attacker is free to go.
-- Once sentenced the attacker now has to do hard labor while serving there time. When they get out after months of labor they will have forgoten most of what they new about sword fighting, but be very skilled at mining.
Given the above, Pking would not be much fun in PS, however I still maintain that I can kill several newbies and get out of town before they can post a complaint. However I will not be able to ever return to town so I better make my crime spree pay off. In general it would not be wise to use the non-duel option.
As an alternative, I might just be a big pest and loose battles on purpose, or run away alot. I would still be disruptive to others game play.
Another option would be to have a very good excuse. One that I thought would get me out of the jam come trial time. Perhaps something about my victom being a con artist and a unreliable witness, and have a long list of prominate players testify in my behalf.
I can forsee a real problem if one guild gets powerfull enough to control the court system. Or if one guild gets very large in size. There members will PK with impunity because random chance will give good odds that the jurry will be made of their guild members.
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Alright then. It seems we generally agree in the main points and only a few littlenesses are not clear yet.
@derwoodly
It all begins with the new option to attack other players without them getting the option to decline. Then several things can happen.
Yes, I think the same about 1), 2) and 3).
At 4) it seems we have different ideas.
The victom drops some bit of random loot
I think not about loot but about money. A certain amount (percentage) of money would be fairly enough, I think. With this it would be not much fruitful to pk newbies.
-- A log is generated.
The best means for the court to be fair and fast.
-- If a guard sees the attack
In this point there was another imagination. Mystiqq proposed a system similar to UO: The criminal is automatically marked the moment he does something against the law, no matter a guard was around or not. But probably the idea to pop up a query box, \"You were murdered by Yack Blacktooth, do you wish to report this crime? Yes/No\"
from Perkins is better than the original idea.
But then your idea to instant mark when a guard is around (again based on its sightangle) should be implemented as well.
-- If captured, The attacker waits up to two game days for a trail.
That would be one solution... (Why did I ever mention the German justice ;) ) As I think about that, I have another solution: The question is how long an accused should wait for his trial.
For answering that question we must have in mind that there is only a trial for crimes which are not sanctioned from the software (backstabbing, pickpocketing,...).
1) The accused has nothing done so far, the lower limit for waiting is two ingame-days.
2) The accused is a known criminal and has a high crimecounter. The crimecounter drops over time (as I mentioned it some time ago). If it takes longer for the crimecounter to drop to nill than two days, the accused have to wait till his crimecounter is nill. That means, the security-custody is, in this case, also the execution of the punishment for the crimes already done.
For the trial there are again two options:
1) The trial will higher the crimecounter from the level it is the moment of the trial (after waiting in custody). (This is what I prefer)
2) The trial will set the crimecounter to a specified level, no matter how high the crimecounter was before.
-- If a trial is not started with in the two days the attacker is free to go. -- Once sentenced the attacker now has to do hard labor while serving there time. When they get out after months of labor they will have forgoten most of what they new about sword fighting, but be very skilled at mining.
Yep, that is the idea.
However I will not be able to ever return to town
That is not right. There are three options to lower the crimecounter to zero and go back into town without beeing hunted.
-- try to get absolution in a temple (with money or something else)
-- doing good deeds (in form of quests, give beggars money, ...)
-- just wait till all your crimes were forgotten and forgiven (crimecounter-dropping)
Perhaps something about my victom being a con artist and a unreliable witness, and have a long list of prominate players testify in my behalf.
Good idea ;)
I can forsee a real problem if one guild gets powerfull enough to control the court system.
Probably the two assessors are not only randomized but also anonymous? That would not only reduce the problem mentioned here but also reduce the pressure that results from beeing in a big guild (the problem stated beneath). But having anonymous assessors could also result in unfair punishment... Do you have any idea about this? :(
@ Perkins
If skills atrophy without practice, then you can go ahead and make a macro to do the prison work.
The idea is that you are not able to make a macro! Are you able to make a macro for the normal /dig in this game? I am not (but I`m neither a professional programmer). I imagine that making a makro for killing tefus is much easier than making a makro for digging...
It would become quite a lot like being a real outlaw.
Yep :) The guards wouldn\'t have to be very smart to make this work. A simple, \"see criminal, chase, grab\" would be sufficient. Make the guards faster than most players. A smart player might be able to elude them for a while, but there are more of them than there are of him, and there are certainly a couple standing by the city gate... So to truly escape he\'ll have to jump off the 100\' town walls... Not fun...
Good idea :)
amogorkon
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Well now, attacking someone and not killing them could be a crime... it\'s called assault. Might also add \"public endangerment\" for the people who like to set traps and such in the main square.
Personally I think they system should try to be realistic. The real world usually does a fairly good job, as long as the justice system is not corrupt. Having the computer do the trials, and reserving human judgement for appeals should do a fair job of taking care of that. Then it becomes a case of, \"Don\'t walk down any dark alleyways late at night.\" And the conflict with real people would tend to enhance the experience, since you could hunt something that would actually have some brains...
The other thing to do would be to institute a \"Player Killer\'s Guild\" and allow open PK between members... That would give people a chance to opt out if they weren\'t interested.
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I grow weary of the this mental exercize. Paxx stated that PS should be a grief free game. So far I don\'t see how having this system based on the modern justice system you have layed out will do this. To be fair, I don\'t see how PS current system will be grief free. I have the following objections to your system that I would like to call \"modern justice PvP\"
You will have to explain this system to the same players that create guilds named the Eastsidekillers and that post questions like \"what are progresion points?\". This is not to say that those players are brain dead. MMORPG\'s are not easy. There already is a lot of information to take in: Race types, skill advancement, magic system, crafting system, fighting stances, death realm. Adding modern justice PvP to the mix just makes it harder.
Large guilds will exploit the system. By killing lots of players at one time the system will be overwelmed, and by process of random selection some killers will be on jurys. You can make the cases anonymos, but if they just vote not-guilty anytime they are in a trail they will get the results they want.
The PS game needs working doors, a good character creatoin system, and a million other things added to it. The modern justice PvP system will be a long time in comming.
GM\'s have enought to do without burding them with conducting mock trials in a fantasy setting.
I hope I have not left you with the feeling that I am closed minded about the idea. I have tried to keep an open mind and envision how it could work. Maybe I don\'t think it could work because our modern justice system is not working all that great. Of cource that assesment is based on my location, which is California.
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You\'re misunderstanding my meaning. I am not advocating trials with real people as judges, except possibly where there is a complicated situation, such as a feud going on. What I meant was that the real-world system of reporting crimes, and then tracking and punishing criminals works fairly well. That\'s not to say that everyone is completely safe all the time, but if they take some reasonable precautions, they\'ll probably be alright.
Large guilds couldn\'t exploit a computerized system. Crimes couldn\'t be reported unless they\'d actually been committed. When a criminal is caught, they would, therefore, be obviously guilty. They could, of course, appeal to a GM if they think they\'ve been wronged... But GMs are human, and they won\'t take kindly to people wasting their time.
The explanation to the people who have a hard time understanding it is simple... Attacking other players is generally against the law. Don\'t do it without a good reason unless you wish to become an outlaw.
I agree. The game does need other features first. Operable doors would be nice, and, truth be told, I\'m getting a little bored killing nothing but rats, and everything else seems to chop me to pieces without too much effort...
On a side note, I must agree with your assessment of the California justice system. The judges there, and in many other places unfortunately, don\'t seem to understand that their job is to evaluate cases based upon laws as written, not decide how they want a case to come out and then alter the laws to match. Aggravating, isn\'t it?
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If you want a system that insta teleports you to a wall of shame where you are shacked to the wall and passers by can pelt you with stones, then you would be describing the system I originally thought was being thought up. I actually like the idea. If you kill another player in a non-consentual duel or steal from them unsuccessfully then you should be teleported to the wall of shame.
The reply I got originally to my interpretation of what was being said was that you could not roleplay the insta-teleport idea, and the wall of shame was just a list of bad guys. Personally I think you can roleplay the insta-teleport. Your hit over the head knocked unconcious by the guards and when you wake-up your in shackles. Justice should work like this. If you are not-guilty then you will somehow survive the stoning and will be set free. This could happen after a 24 hour time period. If your guilty then you will be killed by the stoning.
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That brings up a few questions...
Firstly, if you\'re not guilty, then how did you end up on the wall? and how many innocent players will simply quit and not come back?
Secondly, the problem with the insta-teleport system is that if there\'s absolutely no way to ever get away with a crime, then what\'s the point in allowing them to be committed? I mean, it could be fun to play an outlaw and try to outsmart the guards and the headhunters. But the only people who would be interested in killing players if they get instantly punished would be griefers who like to kill newbies for fun...
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This discussion is not about something which can be done in a few weeks, I am fully aware of that.
It is good to think about such big systems before the trivial ones are implemented. We should know where we want to end...
The pvp-system as it is now is surely a good temporary solution, but it is far away from being ideal. And as I see it, the thing with instant punishment is also a temporary solution. And I think I made myself clear about that some posts before.
The judges there, and in many other places unfortunately, don\'t seem to understand that their job is to evaluate cases based upon laws as written, not decide how they want a case to come out and then alter the laws to match. Aggravating, isn\'t it?
The difference here is that the judges cant change the laws. The law is given and the force of the judges is limited to give a figure between 0 and 100. Where is the problem with that?
I also disagree that the proposed system is THAT difficult to understand. The rule is easy: If you brake the law, you will be hunted, probably catched and punished. Nothing more, nothing less. In the concrete situation it is not relevant to understand the odds and ends of the different cases and so on we are discussing here as long as the implementation is intuitive to use...
cu,
amogorkon
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As they say the devil is in the details. Simple would be to let players do damage to anyone at anytime, and no other rules. Acidently click attack instead of trade and oops sorry my sword is stuck in your skull, I am so sorry it just slipped.
I envisioned your justice system starting out with a popup-- do you really want to attack (playername) without his/her consent? Then clicking yes would emidiately flag you as a PKer. This would eliminate the fireball into a crowd killer, but adds a level of complexity. Some players will not know that it is a bad idea to attack other players. If the game allows it then it must be OK. Then when a guard catches you and locks you up, players will not understand why they can not move. This might lead to zone shouts like -- How do you get out of jail /spawn does not work. I believe most will log off or go afk once in jail.
You sytem also involved pop up jurry selection. I will be in a group of adventures exploring and a magical message will appear out of thin air requesting my presence back in Hydalla. I supose that will be inta-teleported to the court and once the trail is over I will be insta-teleported back? Or just conduct the whole trial via telepathy. I will be asked to pass judgement without know the accused or the victoms name, then click on a number between 0 and 100? The whole trial will cause the group of adventures that I am traveling with to have to stop what they are doing and wait for me to finish so we can get back to what we were doing.
Sometimes there is a great deal of trash talking after someone has been pked. The trial will provide a forum for this kind of chat, and the two jurrors and judge will be forced to listen to it in order to make a judgement.
All that being said, I am for a system that allows you to attack and steal from other players and be punished by some sort of public display. I think it is good for roleplaying. It adds color and depth to the world. I would be more infavor of the modern justice system you are talking about if it was not so modern. I don\'t like the trial idea. I just don\'t think it fits with the fantacy setting. Why not cut out the middle man and just make all crimes punishable by 24 hours of being stoned to death in the town square? lower level player would die after only a few minutes of stoning and be trasported to the death realm. Higher ones might last the whole 24 hours, then be released. I would want to roleplay this and say that the ones who died were guilty and the ones who lived were inocent. But that is just me.
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I agree, nix the human jury system. It would be difficult to implement, and since you probably couldn\'t be brought to trial unless your were guilty, there really wouldn\'t be much point.
Stoning in the public square isn\'t a bad idea, but personally I think the punishment should require them to actually do something. That way it\'s actually a punishment, not just a period of time where they leave the game running and go do something else.
Perhaps an option for whether you want to allow your character to attack human players would be a good idea. This would eliminate most accidents, and could be easily implemented in the client as a \"shoot, don\'t shoot\" toggle button.
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Then clicking yes would emidiately flag you as a PKer.
The idea to confirm the attack is really a good one. You could also be able to inable the popup in the options...
But I disagree with \"instant\"-flagging just by attacking. When you attack, it does not automatically mean that you are doing damage or even kill the attacked person. You could attack and stop it immediately, just to show your power...
I believe most will log off or go afk once in jail.
Yes, that`s why the \"forced labour\" should be implemented. But you are right: People have to be informed about their concrete situation and what they have to do. I supose that will be inta-teleported to the court and once the trail is over I will be insta-teleported back?
No, thats not what I had in mind. I thought about an \"invitation\" to a certain time and place (plaza, for example). The invitation-popup should contain \"agreed\", \"declined\", \"propose another date\". And you should also be able to decline and change date afterwards. I will be asked to pass judgement without know the accused or the victoms name, then click on a number between 0 and 100?
You go to your court-date and read the accusal. Perhaps there could also be a court where you can see and ask questions to the accused, but where he cant see you. Then you choose the number and you can go back to adventure.The trial will provide a forum for this kind of chat, and the two jurrors and judge will be forced to listen to it in order to make a judgement.
A forum is a pretty good idea.. but forcing the jurrors and judge? I would not like to be the judge who has to hear the same story from the beginning to the end 100 times again and again...
I don\'t like the trial idea.
Perhaps we could make a compromise? We could keep the middle man but give him (the three persons, judge+jurors) the choice between the number-system (with automatic punishment) and the public punishment where the justice lies in the hands of the people... That would be one more thing to implement, but finally it would be agreeable for everyone.
bye,
amogorkon
Edit: The stoning could also be the punishment when there is no trial (because all jurrors declined, for instance).
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First: a snipet from the PS Faq.
What will you do to prevent unwanted PvP?
All PvP activity will require the approval in some fashion of both parties, whether it is stepping into an arena, agreeing to a duel, or participating in a guild war. If the other player doesn\'t agree and the first player attacks, guards and gods will stop that fight in such a way that attackers will be scared even to think to attack someone else.
Second: from Paxx.
So, figure out a system that is so enticing that it will convert a non-PKer to want to have this game be PK.
Based on those two comments, I figure that being able to pelt murderers and thieves with stones in public section of town might apeal to non-pkers.
If you try to attack players without there consent then you should be labeled as a PKer. Why? because if you were honorable you would simply hit the duel button. If after a big pop up window apears and you still attack them or steal from them then you are at least attempting to greif them. Whether you you win or loose you will disrupt the other players world and they will see you as a griefer. For this you should be labeled as one.
Your capture and punishment, should be as fool proof as possible and involve as few players as possible. Why? because the victom will want revenge, and we all know revenge is best served instantly (ok, I just made that up, so not everyone would know it). If having to wait for players to organize a trial or a hunting party takes 5 minutes that will be five minutes the victom will stewing about the crime. The victom should just have the attackers name stuck in \"pk list\" that they can open and click on the report crime button. After that the pker, Yack Blacktooth will be teleported to the stockades.
To make the punishment some what painfull, the criminal would have to be online for the durration of the sentance (like 24 hours for instance). For those 24 real online hours Yack would be chained to the wall of shame while a few NPC\'s would pelt him with stones. Players could also throw stones as well. To help out with the Yack just going afk and running PS in the back ground, I would add a death penalty. If you die while shackled you go to the death realm and the crime clock is stopped. Yack would need to go through the death realm and get back to the wall of shame to start the clock again.
I mentioned something about guilt determined by whether you live or die. That was really a roleplay idea and had nothing to do with game mechanics. Players who lived through the stoneing would be conisidered to be bessed by the gods and therefore not guilty of the crimes that they were charged of. This \"feature\" eliminates the need for a trial. All accused criminals are shackled and the gods determine there guilt. For me this fits in a fantasy setting better then a two member Jurry. As you might guess 99% of criminals would be guilty.
To make the PvP even more carebear, victoms would not loose any money. They would take it with them just as they do now. You sugested that players loose a percentage of their holdings. This would not be much loot for a Pker, but it might agravate the victom since in PS you carry your life savings on you at all times. Perhaps a successful pickpockets attempt would work at getting tria from players. Unsuccessfull ones would put you chained to the wall of shame (2 hours might be enough).
This is PvP light and it really is not ment for you Amogorkon, you seem to want a system that allows you to play cops and robbers with GMs and player guards. Those systems are usually more fun for the \"robber\" than the cops. PvP light is saposed to be fun for the cops and crafters. This system could be adjusted by changing prison time, or allowing a percentage of loot to be dropped as you suggested.
[edit -made it a little bit more readable]
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Whether you you win or loose you will disrupt the other players world and they will see you as a griefer. For this you should be labeled as one.
Good argument. With my suggestion someone could abuse by \"attack-stop-attack-stop...\"... Your idea to instant-marking is better in that situation, I acknowledge.
because the victom will want revenge, and we all know revenge is best served instantly
Revenge is not the sole purpose of punishment. Maybe I am too modern for your system, but in a _civilized_ world which PS is meant to be, punishment should also be there to _socialize_ the griefers not just to revenge the victoms.
To help out with the Yack just going afk and running PS in the back ground, I would add a death penalty.
If I were Yack I would go afk, come in 15 minutes again, go out of DR and so on...
If the griefer dies, why should he be punished after death again? Where is the logic behind that? I cant imagine a good explanation for that in RP.
Players who lived through the stoneing would be conisidered to be bessed by the gods and therefore not guilty of the crimes that they were charged of.
I think it is the other way round: the more Yack is guilty, the longer he has to stay at the wall without being redeemed through death. _That_ would be more logical. But then again the problem is: There is nothing to do at the wall besides looking at the people stoning yourself. And that is why I think the wall of shame is a \"soft\" punishment. The hard one is forced labour... Forced labour for notorious griefers, the wall for all who play their role properly as thiefs and murderers.
This is PvP light and it really is not ment for you Amogorkon, you seem to want a system that allows you to play cops and robbers with GMs and player guards.
Is it possible that you overlooked something? In my system there is ONLY a trial and court when the crime is NOT OBVIOUS (open pvp, open robbery, etc.). And there are numerous NPC-GUARDS to play \"cops and robbers\". I am trying to create a system where ALL can be happy, not just cops and crafters OR robbers.
best regards,
amogorkon
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There are some decent ideas in here, and some odd ones.
To start with, instant marking, and no looting would make it fairly pointless to ever pk. I mean, you can\'t possibly get away with it, and you don\'t get anything out of it, so why bother unless your whole goal in life is to torment others? There is talk at some point of players being able to give up an item to skip having to travel through the death realm. It might be an interesting idea to give that item to the pker... Though smart people wouldn\'t give up an item when they\'d been pked...
If we\'re going to do any of this, then assault should definitely be a punishable crime. That gets rid of the problems with people attacking just to harass people and stopping short of killing them.
Being stuck on the wall and having to get back out of the DR if you die to finish your sentence isn\'t a bad idea... Though the idea of forced labour has merit as well... Perhaps the ability for people to put those who are stuck on the wall to work at specific tasks like mining... I don\'t know for sure. I would like to see this game develop a realistic, stable economy. Slave labour from captured criminals could be part of that...
Lots to think about here... Unfortunately, the only way I can think of to find out if most of this will work would be to test it and see... So It\'s probably a long way off.
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The system of modern justice for PvP as I understand it has four parts. Attack, Capture, Judge, Punishment. These for parts have been discussed seperately in other posts.
The Attack.
This is where you proposed letting players attack other players anywhere and anytime by doing an non-consentual attack through some sort of option menu. This is not much different that just free for all PvP. It is not a good idea to let people attack in town where people do shopping and training. Someone might say but it is realistic to be attacked while your shopping. Realistic or not it is just not fun to have two, three or four windows open and be involved in some sort of transaction and get killed because you were too busy with the popup menus.
Even hard core PvP games usually have some sort of safe zone. If you want to have safe zones where PvP is not allowed with the non-consentual PvP, then you already have that. The arena is just such a zone. You dont even have to bother with a popup question, just attack. So all you really need is more PvP arenas. It is just a question a the size and location of the PvP zone. Thus; you do not need any special non-consentual attack mode. Look for posts that say what type of PvP should PS have to find more information on this subject. The synopsis of those posts is that the system we have now is the system that we will always have. PvP everywhere is not going to happen, eventually there may be PvP zones away from town as well as more conventional arenas.
Capture.
I proposed instant capture when the crime was reported. The reason I proposed such a system is that any other system is will become a Bounty hunter system. For reasons why this is not a good thing, you can read anyone of the other posts where the bounty hunter idea has been proposed. There are a lot of them, and none of them promote good fantasy roleplay.
Any bounty hunter system will break down to a game of cat and mouse, which will then encourage powergamers and Pkers, but do nothing for Roleplayers. Bounty hunter systems on MMORPG\'s will also have to deal with players logging off to aviod capture. And if that is not enough, bounty hunter system do not scale well. When groups of Pkers attack in mass then the bounty hunters have to run for the hills, or retalate in mass. Then when that happens you have a non-consentual guild war, and just general mayham that scares newbies away.
Judge.
Here is where the modern justic system is unique. Usually if you have been reported and captured you are assumed to be guilty and automatically punished. The system amogorkon proposed would use a GM as a judge and two other random and anonomous jurors. This is a time consuming process and could easily be overruled be the GM. Assuming the jurors found the defendant to be inocent, the GM could still use ther GM powers and permantly delete the defendants account. Thus the need for jurors baffles me. Typcally GM\'s are called on to police the world and ban griefers. They do not need help from random players. PS has a report feature and GM\'s. The GM can conduct justice via chat windows and does not need to capture the bad guy.
Punishment.
You propose a work gang type of punishment that involved minning or digging. This is a good punishment. I personally liked the wall of shame/stockades. Both do the same thing in my book. They lock up the Pkers and keep them off the streets for a while. If they don\'t get the hint then GM\'s can delete characters or ban accounts. For more ideas on punishment search for the pickpockets posts.
In conclusion.
The justice system, has been propsed before at least in bits and pieces. It would be more productive to find some of the other posts and add ideas to them instead of going on with this post and tying the dead horse of PK to it and clubbing it with sledge-o-matic maul of newbe slauter.
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Realistic or not it is just not fun to have two, three or four windows open and be involved in some sort of transaction and get killed because you were too busy with the popup menus.
Good point. Open PK in a shopping-zone would be annoying... But again you have to differentiate between not-consensual (open) PK, backstabbing, open robbery (grabbing things laying on the ground or from a certain place, so that it is obvious who the owner is) and pickpocketing. Dont forget that the justicesystem must be adequate to all those crimes!
Any bounty hunter system will break down to a game of cat and mouse, which will then encourage powergamers and Pkers, but do nothing for Roleplayers.
Hm... You have to take the game-guards into account! What do you think of the possibility of get mercenaries? I imagine a trading-guilt which hires some (AI-)guards for protection... That could also bring some balance into the game.
Any bounty hunter system will break down to a game of cat and mouse, which will then encourage powergamers and Pkers, but do nothing for Roleplayers.
Do you have an example for that? Any game you experienced this? I dont have any bad experience with that...
And if that is not enough, bounty hunter system do not scale well.
Here I must disagree. I already proposed AI-guards who adapts to the criminals not only in the damage, but also in the number of the registered criminals in a specified area. The moment 100 pkers get into the city, 200 (or 300?) guards are spawned. The strength of the guards could be orientated on the strongest attacker...
Typcally GM\'s are called on to police the world and ban griefers.
And that is exactly why I suggested my system ;) There was the argument that GMs would rarely make a decision which is consensual with everyone => I introduced the jurors as counterbalance to the force of the GMs.
the GM could still use ther GM powers and permantly delete the defendants account.
A person who uses his priviliges to override the RP-rules should be reported and loose at least his GM-status. I think abuse of priviliges is worse than \"normal\" griefing. As normal griefer you often have numerous players with similar skills against you but as GM normal players hardly can do something against you... I think THIS is a little bit too off-topic, btw.
Slave labour from captured criminals could be part of that...
Hey, cool idea! How about a sort of compensation for pain and suffering? The accused also has to pay a certain amount of money to the victom. If he has not enough money, the sentence could be highered like this:
The accused has a crimecounter (cc)=15
juror A wants to add 10, juror B 20 and the judge 25. (10+20+24)/3=18
15+18=33
They also agree on a payment of 10000 trias to the victom. But the accused only has 7000. The rest is given from the game to the victom. So the accused has to work for 3000 trias.
1tria = 1sec => so he also has to work for 3000 sec= 50 min.
A cc of 42* 5(?) min + 50 min = 260 = 4,3 hours forced labour.
@perkins I dislike instant marking and I also proposed the looting of money... Could it be that the posts are too long to be read by everyone? ;)
amogorkon
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There would definitely need to be AI guards. Just make them fast, unkillable, and arm them with nets for catching criminals. Shop areas could either be non-pk zones, or simply have enough guards to make escape after an attack close to impossible. The bounty hunters would only come into play for rooting out those criminals who go into hiding somewhere. It would be a game of cat and mouse, but it wouldn\'t really matter since those who did not wish to participate could stay close to the guard patrols. There should probably be some fighting areas that are non-pk zones though. The idea being that players should have someplace to go to gain experience without risking attack from other humans.
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Originally posted by amogorkon
... But again you have to differentiate between not-consensual (open) PK, backstabbing, open robbery (grabbing things laying on the ground or from a certain place, so that it is obvious who the owner is) and pick pocketing. Dont forget that the justice system must be adequate to all those crimes!
If I must differentiate ?
Not-consensual PK: Also known as griefing, mugging, or random PK. It works the same as arena combat but, can be done outside the arena. It makes you a criminal. It is the main topic of this thread. I proposed you be stuck to a wall and pelted by stones for a period of 24 hours of in game time.
Backstabbing: Physically stabbing someone in the back while they are unaware. Allowable only in the same areas that non-consensual combat is allowed. Should be punished the same as the above crime.
Grabbing things off the ground: not part of the PvP system, currently allowed in the game and is not considered a crime at all. Finders keepers looser?s weepers. Petition a GM if you don?t like it.
Pick pocketing: Discussed in other threads in better detail than it is in this one. If thief fails he should be shackled to the wall and pelted with stones.
Any bounty hunter system will break down to a game of cat and mouse, which will then encourage power gamers and Pkers, but do nothing for Role players.
Hm... You have to take the game-guards into account! What do you think of the possibility of get mercenaries? I imagine a trading-guilt which hires some (AI-)guards for protection... That could also bring some balance into the game.
Any bounty hunter system will break down to a game of cat and mouse, which will then encourage power gamers and Pkers, but do nothing for Role players.
Do you have an example for that? Any game you experienced this? I don?t have any bad experience with that...
And if that is not enough, bounty hunter system do not scale well.
Here I must disagree. I already proposed AI-guards who adapts to the criminals not only in the damage, but also in the number of the registered criminals in a specified area. The moment 100 pkers get into the city, 200 (or 300?) guards are spawned. The strength of the guards could be orientated on the strongest attacker...
I have not played a game with NPC bounty hunters in it. I have played EQ on a red server, DaoC, and Shadowbane. These games do have players that you can hire to hunt down other players, but this did nothing to discourage players from Pking. It actually encourages it. The role players who have not made PvP characters are generally not happy in this environment. You end up with only two kinds of players. Pkers and anti Pkers. This is what I meant by my comment. What game have you played that has a good bounty hunter system in it?
Typically GM\'s are called on to police the world and ban griefers.
And that is exactly why I suggested my system ;) There was the argument that GMs would rarely make a decision which is consensual with everyone => I introduced the jurors as counterbalance to the force of the GMs.
the GM could still use their GM powers and permanently delete the defendants account.
A person who uses his privileges to override the RP-rules should be reported and loose at least his GM-status. I think abuse of privileges is worse than \"normal\" griefing. As normal griefer you often have numerous players with similar skills against you but as GM normal players hardly can do something against you... I think THIS is a little bit too off-topic, btw.
Your system involved GM?s as judges, I mentioned the abuse of GM?s powers as it pertains to there job as a judge. If they don?t like the outcome of the trial they will be tempted to administer their own justice independently of the trial system. The fact that GM?s already act as game cops, and judges, makes having to conduct a jury trial redundant. To state it in another way. When someone does not like the outcome of a particular encounter they can petition a GM and they will act as bounty hunter, judge, and if necessary, executioner. Why would I bother reporting a crime to just to have a NPC/Player bounty hunter track down the other guy, then explain what happened to a panel of to random players and one GM just to get player sent to a chain gang? I could petition a GM and get them thrown out of the game.
Slave labor from captured criminals could be part of that...
Hey, cool idea! How about a sort of compensation for pain and suffering? The accused also has to pay a certain amount of money to the victim. If he has not enough money, the sentence could be highered like this:
The accused has a crime counter (cc)=15
juror A wants to add 10, juror B 20 and the judge 25. (10+20+24)/3=18
15+18=33
They also agree on a payment of 10000 trias to the victim. But the accused only has 7000. The rest is given from the game to the victim. So the accused has to work for 3000 trias.
1tria = 1sec => so he also has to work for 3000 sec= 50 min.
A cc of 42* 5(?) min + 50 min = 260 = 4,3 hours forced labor.
Looks like math homework to me. Yes 15+18 = 33 but what does that have to do with four and a third hours of forced labor?
Ten Thousand Trias! Yahhooweee! I want to be a victim where do I sign up!!!
@ Perkins, just save a step and insta-port them into custody
[Side note: Spell checker wuz here]
[Edit: I am adding a post from Paxx from the Prison thread in Wish list forum. It indicates that your forced labor idea is possible, looks like my stoning idea is not.]
---- From Paxx\'s post ----
Prison if implemented will be not only for a while online, but also requiring your attention. In essence?remedial labor for your character. Escape?no. makes the prison stupid, jail break possibly.
The goal of prison is to deter certain actions, as a deterrent, in this game it should be time. If it was offline time, then I log on with another character and play, if it is online and not needed, I would log on and leave the character staring at the wall and go to sleep.
Reasons for prison will be based on things you have not really thought about, my vision is more for guild wars?.ah you got caught in our guild fort trying to sabotage our defenses?you must repair the damage your group has done. 30 min of stupid clicking.
Not in newbie PKing cause there will be no newbie PKing.
Now what would really suck is if a master thief gets caught in a place he is well known for trying to steal the equivalent of the crown jewels?100 hours of stupid clicking for you :-)
Just an idea, but it is being thought about.
At issue is who sets the prison term and what is ?balanced? if I am an evil warlord and I catch 5 goodie paladins trying to defeat me?and choose 200 hours of stupid clicking?those players might just forget those characters and delete them. Or different groups might get into a max sentence frenzy just to make sure no one comes against them.
But 5 min ? 1 hour might be ok until the devs decide this character needs more time?bwahaha.
But there are many options and they will be reviewed?ransoms is medieval enough?as long as it is money or somesuch. I just don?t want to see it abused and as such it is necessary to figure out.
It could be set upon guild war stance?all who are captured will be imprisoned for 5 min ? 2 hours, and it is the same for both/all sides.
Dependant on the rancor on both sides it might make it interesting?2 hours it is?guild who forfeits gives up 100000 tira.
Or it can be light hearted fun, Paladins Vs. Evils 5 min imprisonment forfeit loose guild flag for 3 days.
Just some thoughts.
__________________
-Paxx
I would have just posted the link, but the thread is long.
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This is what I meant by my comment. What game have you played that has a good bounty hunter system in it?
I think you are asking me about a game with a good AI which hunts you in any way?
Baldurs Gate 1+2, Jagged Alliance 2, you could even count Unreal and Unreal Tournament. The best example which resembles PS and has a really good AI is Dark Project 1+2.
Looks like math homework to me. Yes 15+18 = 33 but what does that have to do with four and a third hours of forced labor?
33 is the cc with which the game determines the time being in jail. I assumed 5 min per 1 point of the crime-counter.
I could petition a GM and get them thrown out of the game.
In my opinion, at the end of the development, there shouldnt be anymore the need for the title \"Game Master\". GMs are like gods for normal players... And do you know any god which can be called anytime to punish someone you wish? A GM who acts like you said makes himself ridiculous and unpopular. I admit my system cant compete with the powers of \"gods\", but that never was its goal.
amogorkon
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*holds head while trying to figure out the quoted quotes and such*
Ok. I have played games with NPC Guards and bounty hunters. It seems to work fairly well. The reason for not insta-teleporting people to jail is simple. If you do that, then there is no way to get away with committing a crime. If there\'s no way to get away with it, then practically nobody will ever do it, making the whole system a waste of the programmer\'s time... I have led the guards on many a merry chase in a couple other games, matching my human intelligence against their enhanced speed and invincibility... They always managed to catch me in the end. Some other human would tend to trip me up just long enough for them to grab me, but it was always fun while it lasted. Most of these scenarios resulted from a mistyped command, or a bug in the game. If I\'d been insta-teleported to prison I would have become extremely frustrated in a very short length of time. Escape from prison was also posible, though doing so was difficult and added to your prison time when you were recaptured... But hey, some people seem to enjoy that kind of thing...
The big thing is that there should be some safe zones, where either you cannot attack other players, or where there are enough guards standing around that doing so would be sheer lunacy. That would let those who are not interested in combat with other players avoid it.
Second alternative would be to allow people to decide when they create a character whether it will be a PK character or not. If it is, then they can attack and be attacked at will, otherwise it\'s safe. Perhaps have an option to convert between the two at the temple for a hefty price...
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Originally posted by Perkins
Second alternative would be to allow people to decide when they create a character whether it will be a PK character or not. If it is, then they can attack and be attacked at will, otherwise it\'s safe. Perhaps have an option to convert between the two at the temple for a hefty price...
?( *tries to imagine*
Maybe that alternative would be a adequate if we had a splittet world: non-pvp > instant punishment or no combat at all / free pvp - no law or similar
But if we choose the \"balanced pvp\" with as much logic and realism as possible, I think an \"invincible\" char (because he chose to be peaceful) is not right. And another argument against that: It would be unlogical that a \"peaceful\" char could even attack mobs...
It would be more than paradox in such a world: on one side peace and flowers... on the other blood and fighting everywhere... *headshaking*
I am definitely for the first alternative ;)
amogorkon
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What about factionbased PVP ? Like implementing racial wars as the storyline progresses.
PVP can be a very constructive asset to a stroylinebuilding. You could for example create a war between the Karn and the Diabli and create a point system. Once the war is over and the respective gouvernments make peace (e.g. one capitulates to the other, which could be done by having one faction reach a certain amount of total target points) the winning party takes the spoils of war.
Another nice idea for PVP would be guild wars which could be triggered by a real ingame political system.
I don\'t think however that rogue PVPing is going to help the atmosphere in the game and would be rather a downturner.
Just my opinion.
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@ Amogkron-- I am asking you what MMORPG\'s have good bounty hunters systems. Unreal is a FPS and is not a good example of the way PS is saposed to work!
@Perkins-- What is the name of the game you played with the bounty hunter system in it.
@Aznakh have you read the whole post?
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Wyvern has a \"player killer guild\" for the people who want to fight with each other, and bounty hunting is allowed last time I checked. Of course, it doesn\'t happen much because it\'s hard to identify criminals, and the guards almost always get them first...
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@ derwoodly:
I am asking you what MMORPG\'s have good bounty hunters systems. Unreal is a FPS and is not a good example of the way PS is saposed to work!
I admit, I rarely played another mmorpg as PS, so I cant speak with experience of bounty hunting systems in mmorpgs. My examples refer to games with NPCs which has a good AI to keep you moving. Imagine guards with an AI similar to the one of Unreal Tournament on \"godlike\" or guards like those in Dark Project...
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I am prety sure that the PS guards will not be jumping arround like fleas while pelting you with spells or arrows. The AI in unreal is not that good either. They always follow the same paterens, and stop in the same spots. If you get into a good sniper location you can kill them over and over again. In God mode they are tough to beat beacause they almost never miss and fire on the run.
PS guards will have some of the same problems. They will have to have some sort of pathing code to make them walk arround obsticles. When this fails they will either get stuck, or teleport arround the obsticle. You can make them god like in there skills, but how does that work for roleplay. Town guards should not be supper hero\'s. Guards are usually not the towns best fighters, they are there to sound the alarm and shoot a few arrows from safty. The guards on the ground should be better, but not better than a typical fantasy hero. However, currently you get your training from what looks like guards to me and trainers should be very very good at what they train in.
I don\'t know, maybe a bounty hunter system can work. However, Paxx does not like the idea and pointing to a FPS game as an example of how a MMORPG can work will not convince anyone of its merits.
I am pounding the bounty hunter system because in order for your modern justice system to work, you need a good bounty hunter system. I still have not heard how players who kill then log off imediately after words should be handled.
@ Perkins
The Player killer guild is just what PS developers fear. If you have a whole guild of PKer matters are worse for players who are not as competitive as the guild members. The developers have stated that they did not want to make a free Shadowbane type of game. And judging by the success of Shadowbane, nobody else will want to do it either.
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You\'re misunderstanding what I meant by player killer guild. Wyvern is a MUD. The guilds are fixed, and joining them alters your character\'s abilities. If you join the PK guild, you are then allowed to kill other members of the PK guild wherever and whenever you find them. You still cannot touch non-guild players. Attacking people in a city is still a crime, but PK criminals may be hunted by other PK guild members. Though, as I said, the guards usually get them first. It seems to work fairly well. The competitive players get to be competitive, and the non-competitive players get left alone.
The guards would not have to be any more intelligent than the average monster should be. Enough pathfinding skills to walk around a couple corners, and a zone that they stay in. Make them extremely difficult to kill, and add an annoying tendency for more to teleport in if things are going badly for them. Arm them with steel-mesh nets to throw on people to catch them when they get close, and post them in locations that a wanted criminal will have to walk past if he wants to do more than skulk in some back alley somewhere.
What to do with criminals who log off whenever they\'re attacked... Now that\'s an interesting question. The AI guards wouldn\'t have a problem with it, since, when he signs back in, he\'ll still be standing in front of them... I can think of several solutions for the bounty hunters... Ranging from the simple to the extremely complicated...
Simple is to make it so that your character sticks around for a little while after you log off. Not forever, just like a minute or so. This would add a tiny bit of realism, since you couldn\'t expect to be safe if you sign off in the middle of a fight in a dungeon, and it would give the bounty hunters a chance to finish off the cowards who like to run.
Complicated ranges from setting traps that they will trigger when they return, to some kind of notification when they come back, to the ability to hire AI mercenaries to wait for him.
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One word, Perkins: You are genious :)
I suggest to implement the simple system first and, when any developer wants to do it, to implement the more complex one.
amogorkon
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From what I\'ve seen, they\'re planning to add the ability to set traps at some point anyway...
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The idea of non-consensual Pking is what has driven me and my friends away from quite a few mmorpgs. But the only reason it has is because those people can take your equipment. I wouldnt mind a NCPK system as long as we get to keep our stuff. Maybe the winner can be given experience based on the losers level for a prize, to disencourage killing noobs for the fun of it.
And although I would like the 7 day punishment thing, it\'s not really fair to the pkers. I mean, the victim bounces right back, so shouldnt the criminals time be like 7 in game days. Which would take like an hour.(and not completely drive away the criminal)And maybe there could be a really dangerous way to escape. With like, enemies 5 times as strong as Grendels.
I llike the idea of patrolling Npcs and guilds hiring bodyguards too. Maybe Npc bodyguards could be hired like in Fable, only they are more useful, and cost way more.
All this aside, I still dislike NCPK, but I figure since it\'s inevitable, we may as well make both sides as happy as they can be with the situation.
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Well, given the fact that you don\'t lose all your stuff when you die, (I think it would be interesting if you did, but then I\'m something of a masochist...) I wouldn\'t think that someone who just walked up and killed you would be able to take any of it.
I might suggest adding the ability to wager items to the current duel system. That might make it more interesting.
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I might suggest adding the ability to wager items to the current duel system. That might make it more interesting.
I think I heard something similar once in the context of contests in the arena.
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There is a simple way to implement bounty. MAKE the bounty Carying bastared SHINE LIKE HELL WITH BIG SHINY ARROWS POINTING AT HIM AND CHURCH BELLS RINGING ALL OVER AND COPIOUS AMOUNTS OF GOOD DRINK SPILLING EVERYWHERE ABD THE BOUNTY $ ON HIS HEAD. URE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WORLD U SHOULD BE ABLE TO SEE THOSE ARROWS POINTING AT THIS ONE GUY! and of course, the poor PKING bastard that died, should be severely weakened as a punishment. and wear a shirt written a Im a evil pker, stay way or ill eat you.
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I guess PKing is needed. If you intend to play an evil character you have to be able to kill other characters.
But there are certainly people who do not want to take part in it.
So a solution is necessarily to make the player choose wether to PK or not.
One solution is to make a PK guild (and possibly guild wars where guilds could enter into war and members of the enemy guilds could kill each other). There is problem with people changing guilds quickly. But this can be dealt with
a) allowing only several guild changes per day
b) after a guild changes the old guild enemies still can kill you for a while
Another solution is to make some areas non-PK (assumed to be guarded so well that attempting crimes is useless) and some PK. I mean something like dividing the world in two halves. Newbies start in the safe half and whoever wishes to do so may enter the wild half. There could be even AI guards and AI mercenaries, it\'s just none of that makes any place there 100% safe. Of course, if you are killed in the wild area you lose your stuff because many times the killer wants exactly the sword you are wielding. It would be unfair to not give it to him :) Banks (or well guarded guild bases) could make things easier in the case you get killed. Also there should be only one punishment for any serious crime:death.
Yet another possibility is to make PK (im)possible per server. And start another server finally.
I guess it is better if you can get into both styles of game with single character and do not need to create a new one when you decide trading is too boring and you want some excitement. Although you would have to train some combat abilities it is better to keep a character you like than to create a new one.
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So a solution is necessarily to make the player choose wether to PK or not.
I think we had that...
guild wars where guilds could enter into war and members of the enemy guilds could kill each other)
Is implemented yet.
There is problem with people changing guilds quickly
I dont think so. A good guild wont take someone without checking the background... And quick guildchanges are more obvious than you think...
assumed to be guarded so well that attempting crimes is useless
Yep. I mean something like dividing the world in two halves.
Have you read the whole thread? This suggestion was already discussed before...
It would be unfair to not give it to him
??? OMG... :rolleyes: Also there should be only one punishment for any serious crime:death.
Uhm... You know that death is not the hardest punishment in game?
I guess it is better if you can get into both styles of game with single character
Another good argument against your suggestion to have separate servers...
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The PK flag on the characters has been used in other games. Most of them do one of two things.
a) You decide when you create the character whether it will be a PK character or not.
b) You can set and unset the PK flag on your character. The simple way to avoid abuse is to make it so that the flag can only be changed in a particular location (maybe the temple? That would be best for roleplay, but any small area could work theoretically.) and it costs some small amount of cash to do so.
Methinks the second option might be best as it would allow players to try out the PK side of things, and go back to being peaceful if they don\'t like it. The \"dangerous frontier/half of the world\" idea is also a good one. It would let people pick and choose the kind of challenges they want, which would probably help draw in more people.
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Not again... We had that discussion before!
The simple way to avoid abuse is to make it so that the flag can only be changed in a particular location
A simple way to avoid abuse is also not to implement pvp or simply keep the system as it is now implemented...That would be best for roleplay
Do you have overthought that? I believe there is a reasonable lack of ingame-logic in such a system.It would allow players to try out the PK side of things
THAT is possible with the resulting system from our last discussion, too.It would let people pick and choose the kind of challenges they want
And you believe that is not possible with another system as well?
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The \"abuse\" to which I was refering was those inevitable cases where someone PKs someone, and then changes their flag to avoid retaliation. If they had to go to a particular place, and perhaps pay a fee when they got there, that would all but eliminate it.
There is a certain roleplay logic to going to the temple to change certain character attributes. It could just as easily be a player-killer\'s hall, or some random stretch of empty desert, but the temple makes sense on many philosophical levels.
Yes, all this would be possible with a different system. Just sitting here and giving it some tiny amount of thought I can devise many, many different possible ways to implement and regulate player killing. Each one has different effects on the gameplay mechanics and roleplay atmosphere. My purpose here is to discuss the different aspects and see if there is a hybrid system that would be acceptable to people.
Now, unless I\'m misinterpreting what I\'m reading, many of the people who are putting forth ideas are suggesting some variation of a system where it is possible to commit crimes, but relatively difficult to get away with them without some hideous punishment. That could definitely work.
The other possibility I\'m seeing bouncing around is that we somehow differentiate between PKers and nonPKers. There are three basic methods for doing this. Separate servers, more PK areas on the maps so players can fight, or some kind of option for whether people are PKers or not. Any of these three could definitely work. Separate servers would require another server and would prevent any interaction between the groups. In my opinion, that is inferior to the other two which allow the two groups to talk and trade back and forth, but that could be argued either way.
Overall I would be more in favour of the crime and punishment idea, just because I like that kind of game more, and if it\'s done right, it would be acceptable to both PKers and nonPKers. However, having done some AI programming myself, I am well aware that doing it right will take a lot of time and a fairly sturdy server. If the programmers don\'t want to do that much work, (I wouldn\'t blame them), or can\'t make it run fast enough, then either the separate areas, or the PK flag would give almost the same result. The mechanics would be a little different, but the nonPK players would be just as safe, and the PK players could have 99% as much fun, without stressing the programmers or the system.
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Ignore, please.