PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Efflixi Aduro on February 26, 2005, 01:56:55 am
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This is directly from the site:
\"Eight dignitaries called \"Octarchs\" rule the city; each of them supervises and is responsible for one level of Yliakum. Together they form the \"Circle of the Octarchs\" or \"Internal Circle\", that takes decisions regarding all the people living in the city.
Immediately under an Octarch there are twenty \"Vigesimi\", high civil servants that deal with law and order. There are 160 \"Vigesimi\" in total and they form the \"External Circle\". At the beginning of every year there is a meeting of all Octarchs and Vigesimi that lasts for several months. In this event they evaluate all expenses and revenue of the previous year, all complaining, problems, etc... Vigesimi normally come from the Craft Guilds of each level, and their position is hereditary. Nevertheless is not too rare to find some high citizens that are elected thanks to people acclamation, taking place of Vigesimi that are dead, that are judged inept or that are found to be guilty of thievery.
At the beginning of every season takes place the meeting of all Vigesimi of a level, generally (but not always) directed by the Octarch. During these short meetings the members of the External Circle can elect a new Octarch if the previous is dead or too old. An Octarch can\'t be removed, nevertheless in some cases the Octarch was assassinated because it was too cruel, inept, dishonest, etc... One of the most famous cases is the one of Fertedian Dalko, Octarch of the 4th level, that was tied to a hypnotized Megaras and sent straight towards the Crystal. \"
Now, my question is, will actual players be elected for the government?
If this shouldnt be here please move it, sorry not sure where it should go :rolleyes:
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you just had to take this up.
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Ah, a player-driven government is perhaps the only thing that could keep my attention for more then a few seconds and make Planeshift at least interesting...
Unfortunately, I\'m sure no one has a clue.
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Kiern, you sound like PS totally uninterests you anymore. Why do you stick around? (Not getting at you, just curious).
As for this, I think it\'s been discussed before. From what I remember, the developers will make up the Octarchs. GMs and other \'specials\' initially make up the next rank of governmental figures. When certainly players become worthy of the positions, supposedly by showing their dedication to the game, their record of previous bad-doings, their maturity etc, they would replace/fill in missing positions in these ranks.
Don\'t quote me on this; anyone who knows me also knows what a stupid memory I have. :P
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Can we say Bribery Corruption? I would think a NPC driven government is much better ;)
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Player run government? yes please please please please please please please pretty please?
I have never played another game where this was the case. I imagine it would be incredibly fun for me. Although I see the necessity of starting with the devs in charge, I think there should be something a bit more flexible than player hours.
In my view, there should be some sort of city council guild. Originally run by devs/GMS, they establish some way to transfer power amongst themselves. I\'m not crying for democracy, but it would be nice.
Once they set the ball in motion, it could go anywhere. Even if they decide on a monarchy, they still have to prevent a revolution. Sure, it\'s going to be friends of friends for a while, but eventually one of then will talk the others into some sort of pluralism, and then chaos can ensue. Or perhaps a very orderly autonomous collective would ensue. All I know is that either will be good for me.
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Oh this is great news! Yay! Im sick of a random npc standing outside a castle whos supposed to be my king...
Also supports somthing else I have inmind :D <--evil grin
Altharion, whats with your response ?(
And, yes, I forgot to search for this thread. I\'m sorry about that if there was a huge government thread before that I didn\'t know about.
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If the players to end up running it, there should be a large drawback of some sort. Of course the advantages would have to be thought out too on what each section of government could do. But there definetely need to be strong limitations so we don\'t get a \"everyone wants to be chief\' mentality.
That said, it would probably be a better idea to have NPC government and players the different \"hands\" of the government.
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Like with anything player grown, do it in the woods and such. Start your OWN town, and let the devs decide if they want to give you something for it.
Leave the default towns in the more stable set up.
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Having a player character with an official political rank in the Yliakum govt would be.. interesting to say the least. Plenty of opportunity for corruption, skimming off taxes and diverting thousands of tria to your own accounts or that of your buddies.. and you could commision public works, like statues of yourself!
It will also be a big red bullseye on you.. Chaotic guilds, the Evil ones in particular will probably do all they can to kill you or make your life a misery.. so if you are considering this as a profession I hope you are pretty thick-skinned.
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Tharizdun, don\'t discourage them! How else am I going to have my fun?
I believe the \"everybody is chief\" mentality is already so prevelant that the best way to tap into it is through politics. Come on, almost everyone in the game wants to be \"The Greatest X There Ever Was.\" I am very much looking forward to the in-fighting and pettiness should the PCs ever take over. Corruption? It makes for the best stories! What better way to be a hero than to fight an evil king? Therefore, we need evil kings! (And me, but I\'m not letting on what my part is just yet,and you haven\'t guessed it...)
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It will also be a big red bullseye on you.. Chaotic guilds, the Evil ones in particular will probably do all they can to kill you or make your life a misery.. so if you are considering this as a profession I hope you are pretty thick-skinned.
this is true but as most characters who make it into a political position will probably have dedicated players behind them (why else elect them to the position?) i doubt they will be taken so lightly...
just my two trias
regards
-Tarach
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...Exactly how do you stage a coup when nobody can die for more than the time it takes to load the screens?
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I would really like to know what the point of a government would be. What can they do to us? This seems like a disadvantage to evil players. I dont think we need a government... unless they have clear objectives that dont interfere with us. I am tired of governments period :).
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Indeed.
If they try to tax people, most will ignore them (or attack them), or just live outside of the cities.
Doing anything against anyone is rather hard, since PVP is optional.
They can\'t build anything, that\'s for devs.
There\'s no resources that they can control.
The only purpose I can see is ego trips.
Guilds are enough government on their own, anyways.
Besides. This is the sort of thing that grows better ON ITS OWN.
If some guild starts a \"Village\" in some part of the wilderness, then who knows what can happen with it. You can set up some sort of relationship with those who want to go there, like some guilds do by passing out free equipment, or taxed equipment. But you\'re not going to get enough power to really say you run an entire city.
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I agree.. it should grow on its own... I believe the devs and mods can do the job just fine. I just cant see a purpose that is beneficial... and nor do I like Order.
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Originally posted by Valbrandr
I would really like to know what the point of a government would be. What can they do to us? This seems like a disadvantage to evil players. I dont think we need a government... unless they have clear objectives that dont interfere with us. I am tired of governments period :).
*coughURPScough*
The only new thing I have to say is that if it is a player-controlled government, I don\'t think GM\'s should be in it. That gives them too much power OOC and IC. I think it would be better if strong and honorable RPers get into government than some random GM, unless they did it with different characters. It\'s just too much of a temptation to misuse the GM powers in government.
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*coughURPScough*
I think you\'ve indirectly answered to your requests and suggestions :P
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Originally posted by Annah
*coughURPScough*
I think you\'ve indirectly answered to your requests and suggestions :P
Am I the only one who didn\'t get that?
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the higher ranked political figures in IC should be elected by players and sponsored by other players with high popularity like me or Kada-el :P
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Let me just ask, mainly because I\'m curious to know how you people think.
Now, first of all. What makes you think that there actually will be a PS government. I mean, what will these people do? Vote about how bad/good something is, make new laws, be bored? Sorry to tell you, but that\'s what the GMs do.
And I\'m also curious as to why you guys think - IF there will be a government of some kind, which do something important or whatnot - then why would the devs ever put players in charge of it? Seriously, come on. Players deciding how a game is to be run... That just doesn\'t work. I\'m really sorry to tell you, but it doesn\'t.
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Grono, I think there are plenty of ways to do this. I\'ve thought it through plenty and have had many ideas on how to run it.
All talk and no substance, eh? I\'ll try to see if I can write something up today since you actually seem interested. I\'m not promising anything too compelling though. ;)
Originally posted by Moogie Kiern, you sound like PS totally uninterests you anymore. Why do you stick around? (Not getting at you, just curious).
I was never really interested in Planeshift the game, even before MB. Mostly I stuck around because of BISM and OI...there\'s just never been a real \"game\" before now being talked about on this board.
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Motto: Every power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Regarding to what members of goverment will do - it may cause too much
fights for power, popularity contests and unwanted political events
therefore I am always against giving the players any political power above
other, with exception of GMs. I have seen what the power given to the
average player in game can do, so I am very afraid of player developed
goverment and in my opinion players should just play the game and if they
are knowledgable, active and mature the should be simply made GMs.
Not always a well liked person is a material for a good leader...
My two cents.
Regards.
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Originally posted by Platyna
Motto: Every power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Regarding to what members of goverment will do - it may cause too much
fights for power, popularity contests and unwanted political events
therefore I am always against giving the players any political power above
other, with exception of GMs. I have seen what the power given to the
average player in game can do, so I am very afraid of player developed
goverment and in my opinion players should just play the game and if they
are knowledgable, active and mature the should be simply made GMs.
Not always a well liked person is a material for a good leader...
My two cents.
Regards.
1) That is why they would not be given \"absolute power\". That\'s just obviously a stupid thing to do.
2) GMs and political leaders would require two very different types of people, with the exception of Cad (the head) there is no GM I have talked to that should even come close to touching anything political.
3) I do agree 100% with your last statement, but as said above, the same applies to GMs.
All I\'m saying is don\'t immediatly say you don\'t want something due to past experiences, there is different ways to get things done and just because some other game screwed it up doesn\'t mean Planeshift is necessarily going to.
I think the fighting in other games sucks, as does the RP...so far PS has yet to make things different, but I see no reason not to give it a chance.
I\'m not putting your thoughts down or disregarding them or something like that, I just don\'t see how people can think an idea is stupid without there being a real idea yet.
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I think they should not have a government but like someone said, if a guild makes a village than they are pretty much the government there.
That is the only government there should be in the game, EXCEPT FOR GM\'s OF COURSE!!
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...So long as I get a position with the secret police and a sharp suit, you got my vote. :P
Seriously, though, a player-run govenrment would be very interesting, though prone to collapse, disorganization and indecision. Don\'t forget disappearing government officers because of RL.
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I\'m trying to get these down so I can address them.
List of Concerns
-Bribery, Corruption, etc.
-Too much power
-Evil players, anarchists and stuff not happy/disadvantaged
-Interference (taxes, rules)
-Government members going \"missing\"
-Most importantly, what exactly would they DO?
Anything else?
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I don\'t have a concern, but I really must reiterate the point that almost all the present GM\'s would be totally incompetent to hold political power.
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Well, if we\'re talking about having a good role-playing experience, then I don\'t see how we can escape PC run government.
Without the guilds as a major factor, all of the story lines and quests have to come from the devs. There is simply no other vehicle for quests at the moment.
To create drama and storylines, you need some sort of conflict. Right now it seems to me we have a bunch of \"evil\" guilds and a bunch of \"good\" guilds, but their interaction is limited to dueling on the plaza once in a while. There is no real tension between them.
Power struggles are a great way to introduce conflict. With a good power struggle, you have built-in adventures. Spies, assassins, quests, heros, general, armies, everything.
Where should these power struggles come from? The natural place is the guilds and/or local governments. Otherwise we are once again waiting for the devs to come up with one for us.
But now the problem is: what power are they struggling for? Right now there can be no conflict because there is nothing to \"win\", really. You have to give them something to fight over. Tax revenue from a city is a perfect thing to fight over.
So, in my opinion, we should be thinking about this series:
Devs give some players power
=> Other players want that power
=> Struggles ensue
=> Quests and stories write themselves. You know, they way history did.
So the key is to have something to fight over.
\"IF there will be a government of some kind, which do something important or whatnot - then why would the devs ever put players in charge of it?\" -Gronomist
\"Seriously, come on. Players deciding how a game is to be run... That just doesn\'t work. I\'m really sorry to tell you, but it doesn\'t.\" -Gronomist
I don\'t know how you can say this. I\'ve been rping for a number of years, and a good game is the result of GM-Player interaction. In fact, any GM who doesn\'t also consider himself a player is probably not running a satisfying game.
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Here\'s a quick write up about the list I just put up. I\'ll probably edit it a lot.
First, my idea of a government for Planeshift would be that it does NOT control every part of Yliakum. The Death Realm in particular would remain free from the government, as this would be where most of the evil players/guilds make their home more then likely. Then, player-built cities would have the option of joining the main government, remaining a free city, or maybe even setting up their own smaller government. Also smaller cities that would be of no particular use to the government or just want to be isolated would not be included either.
Of course, there would be advantages to joining the main body of government, certain trade lanes would be opened to the cities and they would receive items for a cheaper price and other hard to find items, things such as that. There would also be disadvantages, as there would be more rules for government-run cities to follow and maybe taxes or entrance fees to the bigger ones, nothing that restricts too much of course or no one would go there. Along with these disadvantges would come other things, such as better protection from theives (more guards thanks to the taxes)...so people would feel more secure to set up their homes/shops here. Also, this would decrease the amount of people running around in these cities pestering others for money.
Following the current settings of Planeshift and how the government would be set up, no individual would have complete control over anything, thus eliminating the problem of too much power/corruption.
Bribery is another issue some people may have, but I don\'t really see the problem here, it increases the ability to RP...if someone wanted someone else thrown out of office because they were causing problems for them, set up a plant and try to get them to accept a bribe. Provide proof of this and boom...this person is thrown out of office and unable to join any other government system as well as any other punishments that is felt as necessary (or FUN). There are endless complications with this of course, but that is what makes politics so interesting.
As for government members missing, I hardly think that will be much of a problem. There will of course be some NPC\'s to handle the small aspects of the government (collecting fines, etc.) so the day-to-day will not be hurt...as well as the number of government officials that would be there so that a few people missing wouldn\'t hurt at all. Then, if someone is missing for so long, someone else would take their place. For the more important positions, there will be more then enough applicants standing by wanting to fill this position right away.
As buddha said, all this does is increase the RP aspect of the game, yes there will be a lot of fighting, yes there will be a lot of problems with it...and yeah, a lot of people won\'t like it. Conflict is created, and wars will be fought. It is a game, after all.
This is just a basic outline of what I think should happen, other aspects like as setting up your own government are of course limited to what will actually be put into the game and could go in to a lot more detal...and as I\'m not a dev there\'s not really a way to get them for sure put in there.
How players are put into position? That is a tougher question I think...because as I\'ve said sheer popularity does not mean you can help run a government. It could be like applying for a position to the developing team, you have to write up your ideas, accomplishments, etc. It is reviewed by a team of people who are not part of the government (so as to be neutral, of course though no one is completely neutral), and then finally a vote is put up...something of that sort.
EDIT:
Favoritism is something else, of course some people will lean more way then the other...that is usually how they win votes and what makes them different from every other person. Again though, the fact that they are not in complete control of everything stops them from leaning too far one way or the other, as they won\'t win votes and the other government officials will not be likely to listen to them.
Duties may include, setting up taxes, adding on to a city, setting up trade lanes, hiring guards for the cities, trying to decrease crime rate, etc. Again, a lot of this is dependent as what actually is put into the game.
Originally posted by Phinehas
I don\'t have a concern, but I really must reiterate the point that almost all the present GM\'s would be totally incompetent to hold political power.
Good to know I\'m not the only person who thought that. :)
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Originally posted by buddha
Well, if we\'re talking about having a good role-playing experience, then I don\'t see how we can escape PC run government.
Without the guilds as a major factor, all of the story lines and quests have to come from the devs. There is simply no other vehicle for quests at the moment.
To create drama and storylines, you need some sort of conflict. Right now it seems to me we have a bunch of \"evil\" guilds and a bunch of \"good\" guilds, but their interaction is limited to dueling on the plaza once in a while. There is no real tension between them.
Power struggles are a great way to introduce conflict. With a good power struggle, you have built-in adventures. Spies, assassins, quests, heros, general, armies, everything.
Where should these power struggles come from? The natural place is the guilds and/or local governments. Otherwise we are once again waiting for the devs to come up with one for us.
But now the problem is: what power are they struggling for? Right now there can be no conflict because there is nothing to \"win\", really. You have to give them something to fight over. Tax revenue from a city is a perfect thing to fight over.
So, in my opinion, we should be thinking about this series:
Devs give some players power
=> Other players want that power
=> Struggles ensue
=> Quests and stories write themselves. You know, they way history did.
So the key is to have something to fight over.
\"IF there will be a government of some kind, which do something important or whatnot - then why would the devs ever put players in charge of it?\" -Gronomist
\"Seriously, come on. Players deciding how a game is to be run... That just doesn\'t work. I\'m really sorry to tell you, but it doesn\'t.\" -Gronomist
I don\'t know how you can say this. I\'ve been rping for a number of years, and a good game is the result of GM-Player interaction. In fact, any GM who doesn\'t also consider himself a player is probably not running a satisfying game.
I fully agree with this, i don\'t agree with players being in charge of how the game is, BUT like you said if they have something to fight about it makes for am interesting game.
One of my major concern\'s is favoritism, if a leader of government favours someone of group of people than it just isn\'t fare for those starting or not so active, known by others.
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Okay, you guys should really read moogies post before responding. As she said, the top 8 will be made of DEVS and the ones under that will be mainly composed of GMs and people like Kada.
Secodly, no one said the government was democratic. Read the first post, yes, the top 8 will be there until one needs to be replaced by one of the underlings. NOT by a commoner.
The government system couldn\'t be made better.If devs and gm\'s run the government it will keep it steady, but, some people *cough*Xordan*cough* might accept a bribe every once in a while adding some instability to it. And, well, this works out perfectly with a certain plan I have under my sleevs. :D
A pc run government is the most non-roleplaying thing you could do. You just walk up to a npc thats supposed to be your leader and when you ask him a simple question like \"when where you born?\" They will be totally confused. Also, an npc run goverment will do absolutly nothing. It will just...be...there. As for a player run government, could put up bounties for murdurers and theifs.
Also, the concern of evil guilds losing because good guilds have the govt. on their side. Well, \"evil\" has always had to put up with the government through out history. I am \"evil\" ic and I have no problem with it. And it\'s not like the government can do much to directly effect you...
And, since it will be run by devs I\'m sure they will try to keep an even balance to the situation.
And people should know right now that it wont be easy getting into the government roles and asking is useless. And, besides, andone who stands a chance of getting in should know better than to whine about it.
Don\'t call the govt player run. Call it GM-Dev run :)
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Originally posted by Efflixi Aduro
Okay, you guys should really read moogies post before responding. As she said, the top 8 will be made of DEVS and the ones under that will be mainly composed of GMs and people like Kada.
And read closer, and realize that nothing to do with Planeshift is definite. Also that Mogura herself is not sure that is what has been said. (though I will say, it definately has been said that the devs will lead the top 8 but not about the GMs, it doesn\'t mean opinions cannot change)
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Okay, and lets say it does change. You think the devs will let in somone who\'s been playing planeshift for a week because there begging to get in?
I don\'t think so. Theyll get ol\'bees like you, kada-el, kixie, etc.
And, who ever said that the government needs to be stable ;)
Edit: Kiern, grats on being a gm in the bug/problems section btw. I didn\'t notice it :P
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Ok, I think I misunderstood your post. I wish it were that way, because those people are generally more dependable. But anyways, there are people I\'ve never seen before as GMs...I don\'t think it would be that far flung to think it might happen with the government system.
I\'m just a mod there, and I didn\'t even realize it for a while. :P
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With everything said I do not agree with it. PS should not have a government unless it has clear objectives and one is to not limit the players in any way... we are controlled enough in rl and I cannot comprehend why we would need one and what they would do. And.. if you didnt have to join but benefits would be made to guilds who did... many would give up some of their sovereignty for benefits. Not what I want.
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Originally posted by Kiern
Ok, I think I misunderstood your post. I wish it were that way, because those people are generally more dependable. But anyways, there are people I\'ve never seen before as GMs...I don\'t think it would be that far flung to think it might happen with the government system.
I\'m just a mod there, and I didn\'t even realize it for a while. :P
I see a lot of gm\'s in game that I have never seen before eighther. What\'s up with that?
dev:Ennie meenie miny moe....*points at somone* Hey you
Some guy:yah?
dev:wanna be a gm?
some guy:sure, oh 133t!!!!
J/K I guess those are people that where ingame a lot in mb so they where chosen as cb gms since they will be in game a lot.
Now, back on topic.
Valbrqandar the government wont consist of guilds. And if you\'re worryed about this interfering with the urps it wont. This is totally seperate from the guilds and stuff.
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I am not worried about the URPS... because we are not a government... and we will move on either way. But the URPS is kept together because guilds want to be apart of it. Who will be driving the government. What is the purpose and who will be hampered by it?
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Val, if I may call you Val,
I respectfully disagree. Unless we have large entities in conflict with each other in some way, the world will be a bland bland place. How many times can you go see Jayose?
If there is a \"bad\" government, we will have Robin Hoods to take them down. If the government is just, there will be some power mad general trying to usurp it.
If the guilds get large and have no power, then they are effectively not a guild. If they get large and have power, then they are effectively a government. My main point is that there must be power struggles of some form. Otherwise we\'re all searching for Tefusang teeth until the day we die.
As far as the devs controlling the govenment. I think that\'s fine at first. Especially now, since you may as well declare yourself the King of Scotch Tape. Noone has any real power. Once the game gets going, I imagine they will start letting other people in.
Think of it this way: government by devs is no government. What are they governing? Is there a lack of fresh water into Hydlaa? Once they start making decisions about which player can sell weapons in the city, they become players.
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Originally posted by Valbrandr
But the URPS is kept together because guilds want to be apart of it. Who will be driving the government. What is the purpose and who will be hampered by it?
Well, if my idea were to be followed, all of this is listed in my post. Just to make things simple...
1) Individual cities, at first it would just be set up by the devs that certain cities are controlled by the government, while others are not...then later, new cities would be able to make the decision as well as the government deciding if they want them.
2) Purpose is listed throughout my post, so I won\'t put a long list here
3) Who will be hampered? It depends on how you play...but as I said in my post, there will be plenty of places not controlled by this government, so no one really. Just certain places/things will be more difficult to get. And everything can\'t be simple, or it\'s just incredibly boring.
Again, not necessarily how it would happen.
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I misunderstood what was ment by player run gov\'t til now. I thought it ment regular players running things, BUT with only devs and GM\'s running it things would be pritty good.
I mean they could decide to make something happen like taxes sky rocket so the people could revolt, OR even kill off a leader to make a reward or hunt for killer.
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...But...
....How do you ... revolt.. against.. GMs?
All I can see happening is people will just not GO to towns.
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Originally posted by Incenjucar
...But...
....How do you ... revolt.. against.. GMs?
All I can see happening is people will just not GO to towns.
Well.. you see.. its like this. There are all sorts of herbs, lichens, fungi and other things growing in the deep dank places that tend to have negative effects when introduced into the circulatory system of many critters.. you get my drift? A few drops of this on a crossbow bolt fired from a dark alleyway, and GM or no, there will be one less meddling Octarch causing trouble and poking their snout where its not welcomed.
Or if the focus of the resident government shifts towards oppression and tyranny, there will be freedom fighters and vigilantes lurking around trying to set things right.
I could also envision two seperate city-nations going to war against each other over the ownership of a gold mine, farmlands or river that both want to possess in exclusivity. Plenty of opportunity for good RP, mercenary groups forming and selling their services, spies and assassins working in both camps, and much pillaging and looting to be had by all..
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Originally posted by Incenjucar
...But...
....How do you ... revolt.. against.. GMs?
All I can see happening is people will just not GO to towns.
Well, I\'m not gonna stand up to a government so you can expect some assasinations :)
I\'m sure other evil and chaotic aligned people will too.
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Originally posted by Efflixi Aduro
Well, I\'m not gonna stand up to a government so you can expect some assasinations :)
I\'m sure other evil and chaotic aligned people will too.
Mind if I ask how you would possibly assassinate someone, when you need your victim to accept the challenge first?
Originally posted by Incenjucar
...But...
....How do you ... revolt.. against.. GMs?
All I can see happening is people will just not GO to towns.
You don\'t go against GMs, because GMs will have nothing to do with this, however, people who have GM chars might be part of this whole thing, yet their GM char has nothing to do with it. If you tell someone they\'re stupid because of their beliefs and ways of doing things, they can\'t pull out their GM char and punish you for it, as that is a) abuse of power and b) abuse of power. If something isn\'t reported, or seen personally by the GM character, it can\'t be punished. Simple as that. And I\'m pretty sure most of the current GMs wouldn\'t be smart enough to submit a petition before re-logging in with their GM char to kick/ban you for being annoying. :)
Anyway, this whole government thing is years away from now. Why bother being so concerned about it already?
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A few remarks.
What to do?
Each octarch is responsible for one level. As far as I know, there\'s only a part of one level now, so what do we do about that? That leaves the 20 Vigesimi, unless you redefine the role of the octarchs to take care, for instance, of different issues in the current world (which would probably need to rewrite a part of the setting - a first in many years if I\'m not mistaken). Their role definitely needs to be more precisely defined before conjecturing any further.
The game is currently not balanced and crafting experimental, so everything related to economics, politics, ... does not have a strong enough basis to start with.
But it remains an interesting experience to try, and it certainly shouldn\'t stop us from imagining how it will be in the future. I think Talad only should give his opinion on when he sees this happening, and possibly what it will imply in practice.
Who to choose indeed?
Developers? Certainly not, they don\'t mix with the community and simply don\'t have the time. Perhaps they can show us the path, and guide the octarchs when they have some spare time for that, which will be extremely rare.
\"Dedicated, regular\" players? Be careful, there\'s no such a candidate in the first place. The only persons I know who have stayed with Planeshift long enough are not playing it regularly, only sometimes when something new appears. Most people show a burst of interest then leave. Others take it at a slower pace and stick around, keeping in touch rather than being involved in anything for the long term. It is possible, but they will have to take turns and be dependable enough to fulfil this role during their term.
Game Masters? Why not, that\'s part of their job, you don\'t think GMs are only there for OOC/moderation, do you? Theoretically, they should be formed to help players having a better experience, organise events, and coordinate the whole functionality of the game. Governing one level is probably better done with this goal in mind. It would ask that a handful of them dedicate most of their time being IC GMs, i.e. not moderating the OOC aspects of the game because it\'s not compatible. Thus, handing over that part of the job to other GMs. Because of that, and since the same remarks as above also apply, they will have to take turns.
How to choose?
If there are several thousands of players, I can only see the selection being done in several steps if we want to be fair. The chosen persons should be experienced Planeshift players (being involved at such a level without knowing people would be bad), have solid organisational skills and good leadership qualities. They should be interested in that aspect of the game, and able to dedicate enough time (i.e. possibly handing over guild leadership/occupation to someone else during that time).
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Originally posted by CadRipper
Game Masters? Why not, that\'s part of their job, you don\'t think GMs are only there for OOC/moderation, do you?
I do :P
It was said in another thread to not rp with GMs because they have other things to do. And if they don\'t moderate, that means they are no different than regular players. Said that why disadvantages of dedicated, regular players don\'t apply for GMs as well?
I don\'t see how any GM (excluding you, Cad) is more worthy of such position than say Kwartz or Grono.
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Originally posted by Draklar
And if they don\'t moderate, that means they are no different than regular players. Said that why disadvantages of dedicated, regular players don\'t apply for GMs as well?
I don\'t see how any GM (excluding you, Cad) is more worthy of such position than say Kwartz or Grono.
Right. GMs were basically chosen by how they were helping new people...I don\'t see how this makes them dependable government officials. Others who would fit perfect for the job just don\'t have the patience or want to be a GM, and would just rather roleplay or play the game without worrying about all the other things that come with that position.
And yeah, this won\'t happen for a long time...but I don\'t see the harm in bringing it up now so that there is at least some idea as to what needs to be put in so that this isn\'t totally forgotten about.
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They were chosen among advisors on doubtful criteria, and other people would do great GMs if they didn\'t have to go through that, I think we all agree. But I\'m not necessarily talking about fresh new GMs.
Originally posted by CadRipper
Theoretically, they should be formed to help players having a better experience, organise events, and coordinate the whole functionality of the game. Governing one level is probably better done with this goal in mind.
If they have already been selected and promoted, they should be dependable. So I don\'t exclude other players, but I wouldn\'t exclude them either as most of you seem to do. If not as main actors, possibly as support and guides to make sure the whole idea keeps on tracks. I don\'t believe that the described system could get anywhere if it was left to the players alone.
You simply have a wrong idea of what their role truly is, because up to now they have not been given a chance to show that side despite my efforts. It has been said in this other thread that players shouldn\'t RP with them when they are moderating, but also that they could have IC roles as long as they don\'t have to mix both activities at the same time. This is common in other games.
Once again, having a more precise definition of the roles is necessary before fully discussing this issue. To me, it seems to be a mix of IC/OOC matters for which an interaction with some kind of authority is necessary.
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Originally posted by CadRipper
Once again, having a more precise definition of the roles is necessary before fully discussing this issue. To me, it seems to be a mix of IC/OOC matters for which an interaction with some kind of authority is necessary.
Definately. I was speaking more of the current system of GMs based on what I have seen. I agree that, if Planeshift were to do the system as other games, that they would work out well in helping/being a part of the government. But again, it can\'t be relied on that fact that Planeshift will necessarily go in that direction.
Basically I just think the criteria for becoming a government official should be the same for both GMs and regular players. But at the same time other GMs not suitable for those positions or they simply don\'t want to be there can be used to monitor for abuse and basically do the OOC stuff while the people of the government do the IC. I guess they both could be considered GMs, but their purpose/criteria would be different.
(hopefully I understood correctly what you said. ;) )
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Originally posted by CadRipper
It has been said in this other thread that players shouldn\'t RP with them when they are moderating, but also that they could have IC roles as long as they don\'t have to mix both activities at the same time. This is common in other games.
I thought that\'s what you have alt characters for...
And if that is true then it doesn\'t differ whether someone is GM or not.
Also I\'ve been playing certain MUD for a while, where everything (including cities) was ran by players. It worked very well. Of course mmorpg communities are different from MUD ones, but that doesn\'t exclude it as a possibility.
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Originally posted by Gronomist
Originally posted by Efflixi Aduro
Well, I\'m not gonna stand up to a government so you can expect some assasinations :)
I\'m sure other evil and chaotic aligned people will too.
Mind if I ask how you would possibly assassinate someone, when you need your victim to accept the challenge first?
Very, very carfully... ;)
Well actually... *is still trying to get open pk*
:(
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I think now is the perfect time to be talking about the governmental system. Most of us have programmed, right? You want to have as much as possible of your thinking done before your write your code. Presumably, no decisions have been made on this, so it\'s good time to think about it.
This is what I view as crucial. Political power must be
1. Transferable
2. Seizable
3. Costly.
Let me illustrate. The worst case scenario (in my opinion) is this: A friend of a dev becomes absolute despot over all of PS. Everyone hates him and he never logs on. IN fact, he loses interest in the game.
Well, (1) ensures that if he gets bored, he can hand it over to the next guy. (2) ensures that if we don\'t like what he\'s doing, we can have a revolution or coupe. (3) means only people who are fairly serious will apply.
By (3), I mean things like
a: you are open to assassination. that is, you have \"accept duel\" automatically set. This should hold for any public office, no matter how small. In fact, I think there is a broad class of people who should have to obey this, but...
b: If you don\'t log in for a certain amount of time, (like 3 real days or something depending on the office) you lose your power and it is transferred to some pre-set person or a GM is called in to make a decision.
With these, I think the question of who to pick initially will be moot. If the power is seizable, then eventually it will change hands. The whole world could then evolve in interesting and unexpected ways.