PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Draklar on February 28, 2005, 09:51:40 pm
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Well since it seems that there are people in this community who would like to learn the \"Shakespearean English\", I\'ll try to make it a bit easier by creating this thread. I know there are people who are against such form of english, but this isn\'t place for talking whether it should be used or not. It is only for people who want to learn it. I\'ll try to bring up anything I know about this form. If you know other words/phrases/grammar rules, feel free to post them.
Let me start with the almost infamous \"you\" forms.
Well the basics would be:
As many know, Thou and Thee both mean You. However they aren\'t same and can\'t be used on each other\'s place.
In sentence Thou is used as a subject, for example: \"Thou be\'st verily beauteous.\"
Thee is used as a object, for example: \"I envy thee\"
Together in one sentence it would be something like:
\"I envy thee, as thou art praised by thy people\"
Another forms are Thy and Thine. They both mean Your, but they work same as a/an in modern english.
Simply Thy is used when it is proceeding a consonant. Example: \"Thy smile is a blessing.\"
Thine is used when it is proceeding a vowel (or H). Example: \"Thine eyes are as jewels.\"
Sometimes you have to decide whether thy or thine is the right form when used before H. Good idea would be to look at how you use a/an before words starting with H. It works same way.
(Mine and My work as Thine and Thy)
Thine is also used as Yours, for example \"Be these friends of thine?\"
There are two forms of Yourself known to me: Thyself and Thee. The second one is used rather as poetical form.
Plurals of those words take different forms:
Singular -- Plural
Thou -- You
Thee -- Ye
Thy/Thine -- Your
Thine -- Yours
Thyself -- Yourself
Now to the second person forms:
Verbs connected with Thou are going through a transformation. Usually by adding -st, -est to its end (Exceptions are \'are\', which transforms to art/be\'st or \'were\' which transforms to wert). Same goes for third person, although there it is -th, -eth. For third person it isn\'t a must though. Some examples:
You -- Thou -- He/She/It
have -- hast -- hath/has
love -- lovest -- loveth/loves
do -- dost -- doth/does
see -- seest -- seeth/sees
However adding \'st instead of st/est seems to occur more often, for example,
grow --> grow\'st
like --> lik\'st
Shall can be used instead of Will, where Shalt is used when connected with second person, for example: \"Thou shalt list to me\". And Shan\'t being a contradiction.
Another thing is that \'its\' can be changed to \'his\' if one wishes to do so.
And quite common - \"be\" used in place of \"are\".
-ed forms are created by adding \'d on the end of a verb, for example:
remembered --> remember\'d
killed --> kill\'d
Modern contractions such as isn\'t, I\'m, don\'t weren\'t in use. There were however other contradictions, such as
\'tis (it is)
\'twould (it would)
\'twas (it was)
\'twill (it will)
Another noteworthy thing is placing of \'not\' in sentences. Best to show on examples:
\"I dare not\"
\"I love her not\"
There are many words which changed with time, some useful examples:
aye (yes)
nay (no)
beauteous (beautiful)
belike, mayhap, perchance (maybe)
comely (attractive)
enow (enough)
wherefore (why)
e\'en (even or evening)
faith (truth)
list (listen)
morrow (day)
ne\'er (never)
oft (often)
o\' (of)
o\'er (over)
anon (later)
fie (a curse)
pox (disease/curse)
Prating (babbling)
pray, prithee (please)
privy (bathroom)
quoth (quote)
verily (truly)
If someone really wants to get some interesting words, here (http://www.ulen.com/shakespeare/students/guide/page3.html) is the place to look for them.
I might be wrong on some things as I haven\'t go through some college study or anything. Only used what I found on the internet.
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Wouldst thou foster upon thy patrons the mercurial tongue of wit and whim, to make merry o\' thine own mettle and a baser errant not abide? - for sure not fool nor folly nor lowt, unto that should harken to thee!
i.e do you plan to use this old tongue to drive away from the tavern those whose language includes words like \"lol\" and \"wut\" etcetera?
Remembering of course that it can be quite confusing to even the roleplayer :)
Either that, or this thread is to educate, in which case I am impressed.
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Congratulations Draklar, you\'ve now beaten Kuiper. This doesn\'t belong in General Discussion...
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Honestly, what makes you think those types come here and read these kind of posts?... Just asking curiously. :)
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Better yet, what the hell does Shakespearean English have to do with fantasy roleplay?
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Opps, well I am the person who suggested it to him, as I thought it might help the rp experience as the use of old english would be impractical...
And to Draklar, wow, this is very impressive piece of work, thank you for doing it, as I shall definately use it :)
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Kiern: [hint]Discussions about roleplaying[/hint] -_-
Originally posted by AendarCallenlasse
Better yet, what the hell does Shakespearean English have to do with fantasy roleplay?
It is commonly used by people roleplaying nobles (although not only) the same way as some use \"trollspeak\" for dumb races (like krans).
Better ask yourself: What does english have to do with fantasy?
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Shakespearean English is a cliche attached to roleplaying. It\'s not roleplaying.
I think I will use my much overused excuse for not using it: This is Planeshift.
Using English has nothing to do with this, it\'s used because otherwise you wouldn\'t understand the game.
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Well Aendar, only one thing can be said: It is good that you don\'t set rules about roleplaying in Planeshift :)
Edit: And for other people who think it isn\'t right for Planeshift: \"sup\" is censured to \"how farest thou?\" ingame. That should say enough.
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Why anyone expects a miner to speak in Poet-ese... eh
The main thing is to avoid blatantly modern speech patterns. Going in to a fictional speech pattern (If Billy actually spoke like that while purchasing fruit or talking about shoes, he would likely have been locked up...) is fine and dandy, but going in to a simple non-modern English way of speaking is just as fine (And easier to understand for most).
Most college graduates couldn\'t toss out a good metaphor to save their life, much less high school students trying to do it -constantly-.
\"Oh light, that shines through yonder tavern\'s bottle of vineyard ambrosia, it does make the dove\'s wings above your jade orbs take on such a sheen, as could blind the dweller of the filthy depths...\"
Or you could just say
\"The light shining through that bottle of wine that\'s reflecting off of that greasy brow of yours could blind a mole.\"
So long as its not
\"Word, senior-san, yo brow, she is shining so bright through that there wine bottle yonder, I reckon, what could blind a dirt-rat, dude-meister!?!111?\"
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Originally posted by Draklar
Kiern: [hint]Discussions about roleplaying[/hint] -_-
Yeah...I was giving you the chance to realize it yourself instead of directly saying what Aendar did.
There are a lot of bugs in the game.... *coughs*
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I think this should be stickied in the plaza. It\'s very useful to people like me who rp but dont know all the lingo.
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Wow, great course. I wish you\'d have written this post when I was studying Shakespeare, and not understanding a single word of it...
English not being my native tongue, I can\'t really say if this kind of language is suitable for RP situations. However, on a more \"external\" point of view, I think this type of language is really beautiful and poetic, and I wouldn\'t mind seing it used on PS at all, moreover because this kind of language is unconsciously associated (at least for me) to works of fiction dealing with the fantastic (not only Shakespeare but also Tolkien for example). But as far as RP goes, it should be restricted to scholars anyway. Strangely enough I can\'t picture my dwarf character speaking like that... :P
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Maybe each race could have their own kinda accent to english? That would be cool...
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Well there are three general dialects in common roleplaying:
Trollspeak for characters with less intelligence
Normal speak for commoners
Old Speak (yes, I know it\'s more of modern english) for nobles, intelligent and wit.
However there are also other dialects.
You might encounter dwarves talking in their own, similar to Shakespearean.
In Planeshift I also had a pleasure of talking with a country \"gal\".
Here it is described very well:
Taken from here (http://daoc.warcry.com/scripts/columns/view_sectionalt.phtml?site=9&id=24&colid=175).
Most longtime roleplayers in the online medium know that what you type translates into how others perceive your character. Adding an apostrophe here, a quirky misuse of verb there, can create the illusion of an accent or provincial way of thinking. After all, look at the way many trolls choose to play. \"Da house iz too teeny for Grunk!\" By seeing that, we realize we\'re dealing with a dimwitted pile of axe-toting stones who is about to widen the door jam manually.
Many roleplayers choose to use their language to convey their character\'s personality. Perhaps the second most popular theme after \"trollspeak\" comes in the form of Shakespearean English. This beautiful language has charmed people for centuries with its lyrical sound and complex structure, so it should not surprise us that people frequently turn to it to spice up their in character interactions.
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i always imagine dwarfs speaking with a tinge of classical pirate thing
a little more refined... but with a dose of grunts and \'arrrr\'-s. Dwarfs will be very polite and friendly to people they deem as respectful. However if they are addressed by a rude person, dwarf is more likely to go into the pirate/hostile mode of speach.
Actually it doesn\'t matter what language grammar they use it\'s the way they use it. Elves would use the correct grammar with more complex sentences and dose of corectness if not politness towards the listener. In english this is usually manifested by using Old English as it is more gramatically rigid then the modern, however i don\'t think it\'s the only way. Also elves have more tendency to give lectures. That\'s why darklar plays a perfect elf. This is meant purely as a compliment, darklar.
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Thanks, although compliments sound better without names misspelled :))
Also, I started reading some of Shakespeare\'s works, catching some more rules. Added to opening post.
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Originally posted by AendarCallenlasse
Better yet, what the hell does Shakespearean English have to do with fantasy roleplay?
Hm...did you notice all dragons speak Shakespearean English...Dragons -> Fantasy..>:D
I know, a great idea...let\'s have a section in the forums where you only allowed to speak Shakespearean English and Trollspeak...wouldn\'t it be fun...:D
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Draklar,
Great post on how early Modern English should be used.
However I must still stand behind what I said Here (http://www.planeshift3d.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=15044&boardid=13&styleid=3).
I feel it can be distracting to hear The King\'s English.
I however see nothing wrong with wanting you character to speak this old dialect especially for an elf or other being that could easily be very old especially if the character like Draklar\'s has a tendency to cling to the old ways.
I feel by the tone of this post that you do not insist that everyone uses this version of English in the game. I am glad that you are only teaching and not pushing his language.
I have tried it out for myself, but I spell horribly and have so many typos that understanding my late Modern English can at times be difficult.
I know I\'m just splitting hairs here but PlaneShift\'s setting is supposed to be medieval, and Shakespeare was part of the renaissance (the time period that marks the end of the Middle Ages). A more appropriate form of English would be Middle English like Geoffrey Chaucer\'s The Canterbury Tales. That however would be even more difficult to understand. But I say if you want to try it go ahead. :P
All things said.. Good job on the tutorial. :tup:
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thanks a lot for this very usefull post, specially for non-english native user ;)
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Thou ast ye kyning ;)
At least, even if I don\'t plan to master this tongue and every language of each world I visit, it can help me to understand you.
Some may object that it\'s harder for us, strangers, to understand. But I really think it\'s easier to understand for me than many slangs I heard in Yliakum (and not only in the taverns).
After all it\'s up to each one to use the language of his/her choice. Just keeping in mind that if you want to be understood, it can be useful to think about the listener.
This is a valid rule for the language used and the way you type it. Since using caps makes things harder to read (according to serious studies) don\'t be surprised if people don\'t understand you. I think the same goes for the language used. When I talk to someone speaking french, it\'s easier for me to talk with him in french as it will be easier for him to understand me.
OOC: Being IC is in what you say more than in how you say it. Some slangs can be wrong since they are linked to a particular background, like 1337. Those are the ones to be banned from a conversation in the taverns on a RPG.
Boh Tabei everyone.
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Many words of wisdom have I seen here, and many thoughts have been manifested. The one I hold dearest is expressed by the thought of being IC is not what you say, but what emotion that is put into it.
How you react to something, what it means to you, not the language you use, seems more important to me. I fare not well with the high language, so will hardly ever try to use it. However, that does not mean that I am dimwitted, nor does it mean that I resent those that speak in such a manner.
I am not RP a well educated noble, but a warrior that has been well-traveled and seen many things, has had to deal with the strange as well as the mighty, but proper language was not a high priority with me, just the ability to understand and muddle my way through.
Draklar, your post will help many who wish to know this high language, and for that you deserve thanks, but try to understand that not all will speak in such a manner, because it is not their nature to do so. I hope next time we meet, you will return my greeting.
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How I wish I would get to know why people accuse me of enforcing this language on others...
First I heard that just because I used it.
Now I hear it because I made thread, which I was asked to make (also I added that it is only for people who want to learn it).
I know it is just misunderstanding, but none the less there would be no such misunderstandings without making false assumptions or simply by asking about it.
Also I can\'t agree on the IC thing.
Roleplaying means behaving as your char would. That means having certain reactions to various things, certain aims and certain way of communicating - way of speaking strongly reflects char\'s personality as well as education or social status.
You can\'t say \"this is more important than that\". When roleplaying you should always aim to develop your character as much as you can, without regards of what is more important and what is not (unless you plan to develop some things after another), but rather of what you are able to do and what not.
It doesn\'t take me long to develop personality of my char. I try to understand its mentality and when I manage to do that, everything is quite easy. The only thing I was lacking was the correct speech. As english isn\'t my native language, I had no idea about rules of the older form of english. But still I tried to find as many sources as I could to learn it. This thread is only for the purpose of teaching it to people, who like me, want to learn it. I just try to save them all the searching I had to go through.
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Misunderstanding is the core of the problem ;)
You can\'t (or maybe you can) imagine in how many troubles I went because of my poor vocabulary.
And I am sure this thread will be useful to farmers like me who need to talk with noble people.
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Just some objective thoughts here, or so I would like to think:
Aendar - Shakespearian English has as much of a place in PlaneShift as does.... say..... Tolkien\'s Sindarin Elvish? I don\'t mean to criticize, here, only to illustrate that your use of words like \"Calen Vakhar\" could be considered as cliche by an outsider as Shakespearian English.
The reason Shakespearian English has come to be used is that it is an older variant of English itself. Traditionally, role-players have used this to separate nobility from commoners, or older races from more modern ones. English, representatively, is the \"basic\" language of the game, because everyone understands it (it would be cumbersome and unreasonable to ask everyone to learn a new language for role-playing value), so variants of it represent variants of the \"basic\" language analogously.
There have been a lot of role-playing discussions here recently, about what is and is not acceptable. The one about vampires comes to mind. Who is to say that vampires don\'t exist in PlaneShift? Certainly taverns, and ale, and gods, and temples, and swords and shields, and other medieval things do - why not medieval urban legends? Why not ghosts and spirits? Vampires are by no means modern, having originated with stories in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries.
I think the real role-playing cliches here is that everything is \"old\" and specifically set in Middle-Ages Europe. Who is to say that Yliakum could not exist in this era in history? Right now? Or even in the distant future? So there are no guns or other technology. So what? Marco Polo obviously didn\'t make it to Yliakum. What else have we proven?
There are several things that will always exist in a free online game. Vampires and l33t commandos notwithstanding, all the groups have to learn to live in harmony. If you don\'t want someone doing something, don\'t encourage it or pay attention. The real test of role-playing is reacting to something distasteful in-character instead of breaking role to scold or posting about them on a message board. ;)
Just my two cents. ^^,
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Originally posted by Dradynmor
Who is to say that vampires don\'t exist in PlaneShift?
Devs.
Anyway, this is off-topic, please don\'t carry it on...
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While admittedly the vampire example has grown a bit tired, and perhaps was a shabby choice to illustrate my point, my over-arching message was that everyone is spending far too much time telling everyone else how to role-play. It\'s difficult enough to play one character correctly and immersively if you really think about it. I don\'t see how you all have time to try to play everyone else\'s for them as well.
The last three paragraphs of that post are not off-topic, but generalized to discuss a trend that I think this is but one part of. I don\'t think the trend merits a new thread, so I chose to discuss it here, while it would have as reasonably fit anywhere else. The point that was intended was the first two paragraphs, where you\'ll notice I did nothing but defend the use of Shakespearian English (topic of the thread, no?) in role-playing games.
Let me conclude by re-stating my position, since apparently it is unclear:
I have no problem with Shakespearian English being used by anyone who wants to use it. Furthermore, I generalize this statement to vampires, n00b guilds, and powerleveling. There is beautiful potential for \"Free-Form\" RolePlaying in PlaneShift and I would hate to see it destroyed simply because of overbearing restrictions or the tendency to not let people be.
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Again, this is off topic. Please take such posts to the roleplaying thread, which was created for the purpose of such discussion.
This thread is just for learning the language, not discussing roleplaying in general.