PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: zanzibar on May 08, 2005, 10:00:41 am
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I will often challenge random people and kill or be killed in the proceding combat. There have been times though when after I kill someone, I get a complaint. One word that was used was \"murder\", however no one can force anyone else to accept a challenge, and at any time you can leave by pressing the combat button.
What gives? Is the attitude of the people that complain in any way justified?
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I believe it is but of course you have to look at things on a case to case scenario.
I just know there are quite a few people getting tired of all the random players running around the plaza picking fights everywhere. I admit I am one of them. I find that there should be some sort of etiquette towards challenging others to a duel.
Right now dying doesn\'t harm a person much. You get sent to the Death Realm and a few minutes later you \'re back. But in reality people usually think twice before they pick a deadly fight with others. So since that natural inhibition isn\'t there and the game also doesn\'t decourage fighting in any way it is up to the players to do something.
I personally try to remain honorable most of the time and will never challenge a person or even fight back unless that person manages to insult my honor .. or they catch me in a bad mood :P
I personally think that random duels to measure ones power should have a place in the Arena though, take it away from the plaza. Imagine you going outside today in the real world and you see random people flying at eachother\'s throats in the streets. Just doesn\'t bring much of a community spirit in my eyes.
I \'m glad to see you actually ask this question though instead of just going on.
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There are also people roleplaying, you know. They try to stay in character. For some this means they will not run when they are attacked by what appears to be a robber or murder. (Someone who goes around challenging random people without any talk) So you need to differentiate between complaints. Was it in character or really from the player? One problem being that AFAIK there is no consensus on the effect of the death realm on the memory of the char.
IMHO a little talk which hints at the motivation of the char should be reqiured. If its a psychotic or for another reason talking is ooc, a little /me-ing would help.
EDIT: With talk i dont mean a speech. A robber for example could say \"give all your money\". Or with /me-ing: \"/me jumps out a small backstreet and strikes at X back\" or jump out of bush, fall from a tree/roof.
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Remember that people can /yield if they don\'t wish to die :)
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Xordan there is no yielding to a warrior that does 60+ damage with each weapon .. two weapons means I \'d be dead after the first hit and the strongest warriors after the 3rd.
I know there is a yield button but it is so uneffective because most fights don\'t last long enough to use it.
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Then that\'s your fault for accepting a dual with a big guy with a big sword?
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Come now, how many times have you had that little damn annoying pop-up window \"X has challenged you to a duel\" right in the middle of something?
I have clicked on it before when I intended to click on something else because it just comes up so randomly.
Xordan, it ain\'t that simlpe and certainly is not always consenual.
I\'d also like to second zinder here that roleplayers will sometimes accept a duel even though they don\'t actually want to fight. How can one have asassins, robbers, and likewise in-game with this system any other way?
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Imo players should be able to begin a fight without asking, but only to one person at a time.
But then the defeated ones could report to some \"police\" (let\'s say the GM) the names of those that are challenging everytime the players; after a number of denounces is reached that one will have gained his \"assasssin\" reputation; this way those ones could have a lavel of \"wanted\" ottorgued by GM (like in western movies) that would allow to be attacked by groups or be known as thiefs/assassins and become a \"non grata\" person, so the cityzens of Yliakum know it\'s better to stay away from them.
This way assassins could have fun assassinating but they also have to be ready for the consequences.
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Let me get this out first: no open PvP, please. Regardless of how it is done, it will lead to griefers and lots of abuse.
Heck, even our PvP confirmation system is being abused already!
Let\'s face it, thieving / asassinating are for good RPers only, because they can handle both sides. Everyone else would not be likely to take it nonpersonal, and that\'s the majority.
As for the etiquette: I am very very tired of people challenging everyone everywhere, especially because more often than not, it is either newbies who challenge or who are challenged.
The latter is the worst problem, because
1) The newbie doesn\'t know what a duel is about, he most likely doesn\'t know that it ends with death. If someone asks for a duel without any dispute, I would expect it to be sparring, not a fight to death. Therefore, they are quite right in accusing you as murderer.
2) Yes, they could (and should) decline, but you\'d think that paople only pick opponents that they think are worthy (i.e., not much more inexperienced than oneself).
3) Furthermore, they cannot know if it is expected that one accepts a challenge!
The first still is a major annoyance. The presence of the quickbutton \"challenge\" makes it look like this is encouraged and a normal thing to do, like the \"greet\" quickbutton. While the latter is, the first is not, and thus newbies get the wrong impression and expectation.
The first thing I did when entering was to turn on auto-decline, but that was possible only because I had read about the duelling problems before, which is something newbies cannot be expected to have.
As for the IC duelling: yes, this is another problem. RPers get challenged for non-RP purposes and accept for IC purposes. Hence, RPers are at a disadvantage which takes away from RP, and thus this is a bad thing. Hence, I specifically turn on \"ask every time\" after I have agreed to an IC duel, and turn it back to auto decline afterwards.
A good RPer will be able to play along after getting a /tell like this \"OOC: I\'m an asassin and you look like prey, would you agree to a duel?\"
The ones who will then accetp are the only ones who may be able to handle it, anyway.
@ Xordan: The problem is that I have seen people challenge without holding any weapon, only to click a quickbutton (equip swords, attack) after the duel has been accepted. Even if not, the skill level makes the difference, not the weapon, and since weapons seem to be given out in great quantities to newbies, it isn\'t a real way to judge actual strength by. :)
That and the problems that have been pointed out already.
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There is an auto-decline option in your Options page which declines duels without allowing them to disturb your actions.
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Seytra said most of the things I intended to say so thanks for sparing me the hassle :)
But...
Originally posted by Seytra
@ Xordan: The problem is that I have seen people challenge without holding any weapon, only to click a quickbutton (equip swords, attack) after the duel has been accepted. Even if not, the skill level makes the difference, not the weapon, and since weapons seem to be given out in great quantities to newbies, it isn\'t a real way to judge actual strength by. :)
I read with surprise that weapons are being given out. I had to kill quadrillion fantazillion rats to buy my equipment. Did this change during the last week?
But to stick to the topic: The random challenges are really anoying and I, too, turned auto-decline on. But I didn\'t have to read the forums first... because browsing the options is one of the first things I do when starting a new game. And once you saw that there is a built-in popup blocker in the game, one uses it naturally ;)
BTW, how can I assign buttons to things like equiping items or using skills?
C.
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There are some people like me who just don\'t like to duel. I\'m not into PvP. I\'ve dueled twice ever since I joined mid-March and I didn\'t find anything ecstatic about it lol.
Overall, I agree with Seytra. Having a free-for-all in roleplaying would just be too much. There would be more chaos overall. More complaints than now I\'m sure. It\'s just doesn\'t make sense. The idea of having an open PvP is based on the assumption that everyone wants to duel...and that\'s just not the case.
This game is not Diablo. It\'s nothing like it. That\'s what I like about this game so much: The overall community is based more on my ideals on what a game should be, on what \'fun\' should be. I don\'t want that taken away. :)
BTW, I didn\'t know abot the auto-decline until now. I guess I need to adjust my eyesight a bit. ;) Thanks for bringing it up though. I know what I\'m doing when I enter the game next :D.
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Originally posted by Madcrimson
I read with surprise that weapons are being given out. I had to kill quadrillion fantazillion rats to buy my equipment. Did this change during the last week?
It seems to be that guilds that have accumulated some wealth are giving weapons to new members, which tend to be newbies. This isn\'t a bad thing, though, as long as it\'s RP; it just removes the way to assess the power of a fighter by looking at him.
Originally posted by Madcrimson
But to stick to the topic: The random challenges are really anoying and I, too, turned auto-decline on. But I didn\'t have to read the forums first... because browsing the options is one of the first things I do when starting a new game. And once you saw that there is a built-in popup blocker in the game, one uses it naturally ;)
Aye, option-browsing is one of the first things I do, too. However, since I prefer to be notified by the system about everything, I would\'ve left it at \"ask each time\" hadn\'t I read about duelling SPAM before. The little system message scrolls past very quickly in many cases, but since the challengers run off even quicker (too quick to even ask why they wish to kill me) it doesn\'t really matter.
Originally posted by Madcrimson
BTW, how can I assign buttons to things like equiping items or using skills?
Rightclick on the desired quickbutton and enter the commands to execute in the window that appears. The equipping commands don\'t work 100% yet, but that can be worked around by using > 1 quickbutton.
@ Aiselyn: it\'s in options->PvP->Confirmation->never accept
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I have had auto decline not work for me. And the main reason that I had gotten challenged was to keep me from attacking a rat. Two people challenge spammed me, that way ONE of them could grab the rat spawn.
This infantile behavior went down a little bit once the rat spawns were fixed, but would drop conciderably more if the number of mobs that drop loot, give xp and give skill ups for using skills were upped, tripling the type and number might do.
But...I have given up, the RPers do not want the game improved and any new tester is immediately tarred feathered and then hanged drawn and quartered.
Yes I keep coming back to see if the game is any better, but...I expect that this game will improve at only SLIGHTLY faster than the speed of evolution in nature.
Fear of allowing anyone BUT a pure role player in and making any other type of player comfortable is going to be the demise of this game. But the future is not set in stone.
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Roleplayers do not oppose the testing of the game, ask yourself first, Is Bothering The Roleplayers Testing The Game?
And if the answer is No, (which it is...) then you might consider cutting it out and bothering somebody else.
Where exactly have you seen opposition on the part of roleplayers to expansion/improvement of the game?
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Well, if your notion of \"improving and expanding the game\" equates to \"catering to the powerleveller / PKer and making PS become more like any other MMORPG\", you should not be surprised that you meet strong opposition. If this is what you want, I hope that PS takes much longer to get there than it took the universe to become what it is today!
Edit: as for your challenge spam problem: I haven\'t had auto-decline fail once for me?
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I\'ve seen a few instances when it becomes the RP community VS the PVP peoples.
Considering that situation, it ended with a bit of a mess...
The PVP player was insisting that nothing was wrong, even though we explained from our point of view multiple times.
(If a player stays in context and is killed because of it, it is considered murder... At least, to us.)
In fact, I think those who want to PvP should earn the right to do so, instead of randomly spamming people challenges.
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Limit PVP to the arena, and call PVP outside of the arena murder, or \"disturbing the peace\" if it\'s consentual. However, there needs to be a way then to get to the arena quickly, or else people won\'t use it. A teleportation device, spell, or gateway would provide this.
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Considering that you usually set a time for the duel to start IRL (like noon), the way to the arena won\'t be much of a limiting factor, at least not if the duel is RP\'d correctly.
I think we need to make death more inconveinent, for example by moving the respawn point way out of any commonly travelled area. This would solve
- /spawn abuse
- deathspawn
- unnecessary duelling, at least to an extent.
Let\'s put it somewhere in the hills, for example, way off the ojaroad and teffy hill.
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Seytra pointed out exactly why the dueling happens in the plaza. This is probably the only practical solution, since these guys aren\'t going away. Even behind the temple or somewhere out of sight would be nice. Perhaps two spawn points: one for brand new people and one for people recently killed OR even random spawn points. That would suck for the new guys, though...
Another thing I feel is needed is for we RPers to STAY in the plaza and set the proper tone.
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And then we could go the Arabel route (NWNers, check out the server City of Arabel ;) ): In Arabel open PvP is allowed. Go ahead, kill who you want. However, there are consequences. If you randomly kill people, you are considered to be murdering. The first offense (if you\'re caught) sticks you in jail (2 or 3 REAL days I believe). The second offense gets you banned from the city (it may be third, not usre).
In other words, random murderers end up losing their characters (though in PS there\'d probably a few more chances, i.e. 5 murders = character wipe). There can also be a system for appeals in the event of any unclear issues. This ties in with the city guard idea I mentioned somewhere around here. The city guard enforces this and puts people in jail when they\'re caught murdering, stealing, etc (of course the people could petition GMs if they think their case is unfair). The city guard would NOT be able to wipe characters. This would control PvPers and make the game more realistic. The downside to this is that newbie PvPers would get angry and leaves PS. Then again, for some people, that\'s an upside. ;)
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I agree that the PvP area should be in the arena.
Mostly, that\'s what it\'s for, right?
A little bit OT: RPers (including me) need to spread out a bit... I\'ve never seen any in Akkiko or the other sections of Hydlaa. Just the Tavern and the Plaza.
On Topic\'d
I\'d say that spawn points should be in the major cities (currently Akkiko and Hydlaa), and the Arena.
If possible, those who die from duels should go to the Arena, while those that die from \"natural causes\" (Rampant Ulbernaut or Teffy) should spawn at the nearest point.
\'Course, I have no idea if that is possible.
It should be, but I\'m pretty sure I\'d be quite a bit of work.
We just need to find a way to move the PvPers, because otherwise they\'ll stay in the Plaza...
Ideas mentioned above probably should work.
@Cha0s: I think we agreed that Open PvP is not an option?
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Originally posted by Cha0s
In other words, random murderers end up losing their characters (though in PS there\'d probably a few more chances, i.e. 5 murders = character wipe). There can also be a system for appeals in the event of any unclear issues. This ties in with the city guard idea I mentioned somewhere around here. The city guard enforces this and puts people in jail when they\'re caught murdering, stealing, etc (of course the people could petition GMs if they think their case is unfair). The city guard would NOT be able to wipe characters. This would control PvPers and make the game more realistic. The downside to this is that newbie PvPers would get angry and leaves PS. Then again, for some people, that\'s an upside. ;)
If you wish to make such a force of people who punish others for PKing, you have the typical power-abuse question. Will these people - who obviously aren\'t a part of the dev team - abuse their power, and punish people unnecessarily? And starting to demand that the GMs - who already are a volounteer force - do all this extra work just isn\'t a good idea.
To put it in another way, PlaneShift simply isn\'t designed to use open pvp\'ing anywhere. To use some kind of guard force, would require a whole restructuring of both the PvP system, the setting and the game mechanics, and it would be a big amount of wasted work when the current system works just fine.
What people need to realize is just that killing stuff isn\'t everything there is to do in an online game, so there\'s no need to concentrate so much about what\'s cool and what\'s not. :)
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*notices another thread involving pvp*
I\'d like to comment few thoughts up here
Originally posted by Cha0s
In other words, random murderers end up losing their characters (though in PS there\'d probably a few more chances, i.e. 5 murders = character wipe). There can also be a system for appeals in the event of any unclear issues. This ties in with the city guard idea I mentioned somewhere around here. The city guard enforces this and puts people in jail when they\'re caught murdering, stealing, etc (of course the people could petition GMs if they think their case is unfair). The city guard would NOT be able to wipe characters. This would control PvPers and make the game more realistic.
I can\'t see how game may be more realistic because of character wipes. Imagine yourself sitting at the comp and suddently you are wiped. I dont think so that this sounds realistic. :s
I agree that if there was pvp, there need to be punishment system as mentioned above and in many other places, but it needs to be logical and realistic (in the right meaning).
About spawning:
I can\'t understand why people constantly are asking for different spawn points.
PS news 2004.08.25
In CB we will have a first implementation of the Death Realm (DR). When a character dies, his body lays on the ground, lifeless. No one can touch the body since it\'s surrounded by a magic death aura. Touching that aura can be fatal to anyone. The spirit separates from the body and asks to the gods to be resurrected. The Death God, being evil and greedy, asks a magical item to bring him back to the world of the living. If he refuses or has nothing to give, he is thrown to the Death Realm. In the realm of death everything is dim and shadow and the spirits of the dead cannot die again, they may be knocked out but never die no matter how badly they are wounded. Here he must find an exit from DR to come back to life.
This don\'t mention that the soul comes back to its body in the place where it was, but it seems logical. When you comes back to life, curently you spawns at plaza, what means your body ot teleported. Why? I have no logical, rp explanation and thats another reason why i\'m posting.
So when you die and later comes back to life, you should be there where you died.
Originally posted by Kiva
To put it in another way, PlaneShift simply isn\'t designed to use open pvp\'ing anywhere. To use some kind of guard force, would require a whole restructuring of both the PvP system, the setting and the game mechanics, and it would be a big amount of wasted work when the current system works just fine.
What people need to realize is just that killing stuff isn\'t everything there is to do in an online game, so there\'s no need to concentrate so much about what\'s cool and what\'s not. :)
I agree planeshift isn\'t currently designed for open Player Killing. Also I agree that adding open pvp\'ing needs a lot of work and restructuring the game mechanics. But it won\'t be wasted work and the current system isn\'t working just fine.
So many people are asking for open pvp (if not everywhere, then at some area) because it involves great amount of situations which can\'t be done without it.
If we dont have open pvp, then we loose much also on rp aspect because we can\'t roleplay many of our actions, which should be possible. We can only tell tales in the tavern about such situations which has never happened.
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Nikodemus, you just have to get someone to go along with it. Given that death is not a big deterrant currently, this should not be too difficult.
I have to agree with the idea of respawning in the location of death, as it prevents travel-by-death as we have currently.
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Originally posted by Nikodemus
I agree planeshift isn\'t currently designed for open Player Killing. Also I agree that adding open pvp\'ing needs a lot of work and restructuring the game mechanics. But it won\'t be wasted work and the current system isn\'t working just fine.
So many people are asking for open pvp (if not everywhere, then at some area) because it involves great amount of situations which can\'t be done without it.
I might be wrong, but it seems that almost all of the people asking for open PvP are exactly the ones that are why open PvP is a bad thing.
The system as it is works very well for everyone except these, save some minor issues that can be worked out.
Originally posted by Nikodemus
If we dont have open pvp, then we loose much also on rp aspect because we can\'t roleplay many of our actions, which should be possible. We can only tell tales in the tavern about such situations which has never happened.
As I said somewhere else, the only ones who can handle the victim side of PvP are exceptionally good RPers. These, however, are the minority. It is easy to be on the murderer side, but hard to be on the victim side. The others who might not mind being on the victim side are not RPing at all, but only powerlevellers who want some sort of ranking system, griefers and other abusers like farmers who use PvP to keep legitimate chars from entering their \"turf\".
Therefore, the average RPer would be served badly with open PvP, and the exceptional RPer will agree to the duel with other exceptional RPers. You can easily agree on a duel and then go your ways, and hours later actual hostility can arise.
The powerleveller and other abusers are unwanted and thus don\'t need to be taken into account at all, except to prevent them from showing up in PS.
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hmmm, I have pressed wrong key and all my text has been deleted :s
So basicly:
Duel system stops most of the abuses. It allows RPers (who want to have most of the time peacefull life) stay away from unnecessary in their opinion death. We live in \"paradise\" where everybody are safe because they can choose to not fight and walk away like nothing ha happened.
We can\'t be suprised by someone who wants to kill us. There are no battles.
Even of two RPers will agree, to fight they have to explain eachother why they are going too.
Open pk will allow more abuses, but it allow other actions for people who will use this option in the meant way. We can\'t make open pk instantly, because first there need to be somethink what will stop massive masacres.
Basicly, one group of people dont want open pk, because they dont need it so much and fear abuses. they have bad eperiences from other games where nothing has been made against it, maybe?
The other group of people want pk, because they want adventure where they want to risk their life. And they think it is so good fun that they may agree for some abuses.
Both groups are roleplayers, but they like to rp different situations.
Generally open pk needs a lot of work to be done if it is going to be done in the right way. And thats probably the main reason why we dont have it.