PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: keder on May 17, 2005, 07:36:10 pm
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i would like to be able to get *some* kind of information about how weapons compare to each other, such as the speed of a weapon, the type of damage done, how much damage done, etc.
also, what skill is it\'s use based on? what other skills give a \"halo effect\" bonus? (ie: swords and daggers are similar, 5 rankings in sword skill is equivalent to 1 ranking in dagger skill)
otherwise, we are all unable to make intelligent choices about which weapons to use.
--- keder maloy
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You should be able to examine the weapon/armor or something like that to find its stats. Or how about you can talk to harnquist or whoever you bought it from and say something like \"How strong is a battle axe?\" or something and he will give you some info on it. :D
Talcil
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Originally posted by wormking
You should be able to examine the weapon/armor or something like that to find its stats. Or how about you can talk to harnquist or whoever you bought it from and say something like \"How strong is a battle axe?\" or something and he will give you some info on it. :D
Talcil
*should* and *can* are two different things, tried both, examining it told me that it was, and told me the weight. harnquist told me he couldn\'t understand me.
--- keder maloy
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No, I don\'t mean this is ingame. That is just a suggestion for something that could be put ingame.
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ahhhh, i thought i might have missed something. thank you.
--- keder maloy
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From what I\'ve seen, this has been brought up quite a few times. The responses from other people though were all the same. That wouldn\'t be very realistic, you can\'t see a weapon\'s \"stats\" IRL could you?
ps I really like that Idea about talking to Harnquist or which ever NPC you buy something from and getting some info on it. Now that is realistic.
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Originally posted by Dantaus
From what I\'ve seen, this has been brought up quite a few times. The responses from other people though were all the same. That wouldn\'t be very realistic, you can\'t see a weapon\'s \"stats\" IRL could you?
ps I really like that Idea about talking to Harnquist or which ever NPC you buy something from and getting some info on it. Now that is realistic.
actually, yes, i can. my katana is 40 inches long, has an edge shapened to a 3 micron edge, and is balanced for speed over power. etc.
the speed/damage/etc stats would be the ingame equivalent of this information. i can\'t get my charisma rating irl the same way i can ig. but at the same time, my charisma irl doesn\'t work the same either. let\'s face it, if the npc\'s ai was programmed well enough that charisma could be measured the same way ig as irl, the character\'s charisma would be irrelevant, it would depend completely on the player\'s charisma and rping skill.
however, this information cold be creatively masked into conversation with harnquist, and tailored to the particular character talking to him.
for example, a kran with massive amounts of strength but not much flexibility would be far better served to study heavy axes for inflicting massive wounds with each strike, and perhaps also severly damaging the opponent\'s armor. an enkidukai who isn\'t all that strong, but fast as lightning and flexible as a wet noodle might very well struggle to even lift those same axes. the much lighter and faster swords or even daggers would serve the enkidukai much better even though strictly on a weapon by weapon basis the axe does more damage.
putting this into a conversation with harnquist could look something like:
harnquist: greeting enki
enki: greetings, i\'m looking for some new weapons. what do you have that will do the most damage?
harnquist: well, i\'ve i nicely matched pair of axes, they each will easily do thrice the damage your sword would, but i wonder if that would be the best choice for you...
enki: how do you mean?
harnquist: well, no offense, but i\'m not sure you are really suited to the axes. you enkidukai have wonderous flexibility and the axes tend more toward lumbering tanks than quick movements. on the other hand, this dagger would be a worthy compliment to your sword. you can easily get in strikes with it 3 or 4 times for each strike you\'d manage with the axe.
enki: really? okay... you\'ve got my interest, please tell me more?
harnquist: certainly, you\'re quite comfortable with your sword, correct?
enki: yes...
harnquist: well, with your sword you can probably strike 3 or 4 times in the time it would take you to strike once with the axe. possibly even 5 times if you\'re having a good day. using the dagger as a second, you\'d likely get an addition striek or 2 in that same time without hurting anything except your opponent.
enki: go on...
harnquist: in that same amount of time, you\'d get one strike with the axe, and during that strike you\'d be nearly immobilized, an easy target. this is just due to the design of the weapon type. i would venture to say you already do as much damage with your sword as you would do with the axe, just spread out in several strikes. add the dagger to that, and you\'d best yourself.
.....conversation continues.....
from that, the axe does 3-4 times the damage of the sword, but is 3-4 time slower, maybe 5 times slower. strength to wield the weapon comes into play, etc, etc.
honestly, the comparison is more important than the hard numbers, but the hard numbers are easier to give. especially early on. besides that, hard numbers are available irl, just a different set of them which would likely be meaningless ig.
anyway, i think i\'ve rambled for far too long and need to stop for a bit.
--- keder maloy
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That\'s not what you were talking about, you said you wanted to see the speed of a weapon, how much damage it deals, and things like that.
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Originally posted by Dantaus
That\'s not what you were talking about, you said you wanted to see the speed of a weapon, how much damage it deals, and things like that.
more i\'m looking for the comparisons between them, but i can make my best decisions if i have the direct information like i do for agility, charisma, sword skill, axe skill, etc. and since we already have those, i thought it logical (or at least consistent) to have that information on the weapons and armor as well.
--- keder maloy
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Originally posted by Dantaus
That\'s not what you were talking about, you said you wanted to see the speed of a weapon, how much damage it deals, and things like that.
also, is not \"the sword is thrice the speed of the axe\" at least partial information about the speed of both weapons?
--- keder maloy
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double posting is frowned upon
Well it could be Harnquist\'s opinion, and that might not be true if your axe skill is level 60 and your sword at 0.
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Originally posted by Dantaus
double posting is frowned upon
Well it could be Harnquist\'s opinion, and that might not be true if your axe skill is level 60 and your sword at 0.
i would hope either harquist would take that into account or harnquist would ask what rankings you\'ve achieved in the relevant tests and base his recommendations on that.
as to the double posting, my apologies then. what is the recommended method for such dissimilar replies to the same original message?
--- keder maloy
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I guess so
and when you forget something just edit it amd ay something letting you know you edited it like:
EDIT: Blahh blahhh blahhh
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Originally posted by Dantaus
I guess so
and when you forget something just edit it amd ay something letting you know you edited it like:
EDIT: Blahh blahhh blahhh
it wasn\'t forgotten so much as the two replies were different enough as to not fit well in a single reply...
still combine?
--- keder maloy
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I would think so, I don\'t exactly know why they dislike it so much, I just know they don\'t. Maybe they\'re on a point system like boardnation is.
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The item description window is being reworked to show you enough info to compare between Weapons, Armours, Shields etc.
So hold on, till you get you\'r medicine. :]
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Originally posted by DivineLight
The item description window is being reworked to show you enough info to compare between Weapons, Armours, Shields etc.
So hold on, till you get you\'r medicine. :]
<--- on her knees begging for her medicine
;)
--- keder maloy
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it\'s done keder, look for it in next update.
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I might want to contest this update that has been done.
From my experience, this kind of modifications are against the true spirit of RPG.
If you want to do RPG you should know less and less about \"numbers\".
In reality, when you go and buy a weapon it doesn\'t say all that data, but it might say in words that is a good or a lousy weapon.
When you look at yourself, except if you weight yourself on a scale, you don\'t know how much you weight, but obviously you might know that something is heavy for you...
As I said in another post some billions of months ago, getting the \"how much damage\" I am doing while hitting somebody kills the RPG of the combat. It would be nice to substitute numbers with words like \"you are penetrating the armor of XXX\" \"you have just hit the surface of the armor of XXX\" and so on...
Ary
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Agreed Ary...numbers suck, words rule :D
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Originally posted by Ecolem
Agreed Ary...numbers suck, words rule :D
numbers may suck, but they are a reality. for example, if my dagger\'s blade is 10 cm from hilt to tip, i\'m only going to piss of an ulbernaut who\'s hide is sometimes up to 20 cm thick no matter what angle i use. also, my katana has a 15% angle for it\'s cutting edge and the edge itself is 3 microns. my dagger has a 40% angle edge and is 10 microns at the edge. that tells me that i can easily slice through leather armor with the katana, but should really look for a gap in the armor or count on strength alone to force the dagger\'s blade through.
all of this can be measured with numbers. so can your strength. if you don\'t believe it, go to a gym and ask one of the regulars how many reps she can do on a particular set of free weights. that gives 2 numbers. beyond that is endurance. at the start of the day, she can do (example only) 50 reps with 40 kilo weights. if she\'s working out all day, she\'s likely to be tired at the end of the day. perhaps at the end of the day she can only do 25 reps. or she can still do the 50 reps, but it has to be with the lighter 20 kilo weights. either way, that is a 50% strength reduction for being exhausted. all of this can and is measured in numbers all the time. having a single number to represent strength is a tremendous simplification of reality, not a drift away from it.
yes, i would love to have the realism of being able to pierce my enemy\'s armour, thus making it less effective. or better yet, target the straps that hold the armour on (these straps, even on the strongest plate steel, are usually leather) causing it to fall off and possibly tripping up my enemy. do you realize the complexity of the programming that would be needed to do that?
after simplifying life enough to be able to fit the various actions into a computer simulation without requiring a multimillion dollar supercomputer to run it, having only one number for strength is reasonable, and giving us this number is a courtesy i appreciate.
if someone is interested, i can try to post a breakdown of the typical strength numbers measured at the gym by the regulars.
besides, haven\'t you ever roleplayed from the point of view that this is what life is like there? that can be quite entertaining in it\'s own right. especially if you do it from the point of view of being torn from our realm (RL) and dumped into this new world where things are so strange.
--- keder maloy
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yes i agree numbers are a real part of life...
i don\'t see why people are so afraid of numbers...
yes possibly maybe there will be some loser goin around saying his numbers... but he will have no friends and will leave eventually, especially in a community like this.
however, numbers are not always necessary and i think it is somewhat more practical to have less exact measurements for weapons, so that there isn\'t like formulas or anything people use to calculate attacka and all that stuff... just general descriptions i think should be enought to adequately describe the weapon... using words :D
ooh and i like the idea of not showing actual numbers for damage that ary suggested, instead saying like what happened in the attack, very interesting.
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given the choice, i would like to see numbers still, but more realistic ones. such as \"... your strike rent a 7 cm gash that is 2 cm deep and is freely bleeding...\" that strike is going to hurt. alot to a rat. painful irritant to an ulbernaut. something else to consider is to make it optional. there will always be plevelers in any game. some of them do a passable job of roleplaying too. if you don\'t give them the numbers up front, they will break it down and figure it out anyway, then post the numbers everywhere and shout them from the mountaintops because they will feel it was a huge disservice to hide the numbers and consider broadcasting them to everyone a public service.
*quells urge to stab nearest pleveler*
perhaps the best solution is to make it an easily configurable option to turn on or off the display of numeric stats. that way those that want the number can have them, and those that don\'t want them won\'t have to be annoyed by them.
personally, i use the numbers associated with the skills as rankings, rather like belts are used in martial arts. i have to train new techniques, practice those techniques, then be tested on them to reach the next ranking in a particular disipline. i\'ve never had anyone tell me i\'m not RPing or i\'m ruining the realism when i ask what belt they are. i see little difference here. for example, stamina could easily be the number of seconds you can run full speed without stopping to catch your breath. (in fact i think it may be...) strength could be how many kilos i can benchpress, endurance can be the number of hours i can go without sleep before colapsing... each of these is something that can realistically be measured (and i certainly don\'t want to armwrestle someone who can bench 200 kilos). IQ is a numeric measure of intelligence that long predates the computer, let alone computer games.
what i would most like to see is a frame of reference as to what the equivalents really are. that way the numbers have some tangible meaning and we can use that frame of reference in either numeric comparison or equivalent worded desriptions.
--- keder maloy
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I\'m all for \"realism\" in a game like this. (Note the quotations... my character is an elf, you can\'t truly go for realism in a fantasy world. It\'s a contradiction of terms.) In real life, one would look at the sword, hold it, and examine it for its value and abilities. (based upon the skill of the user at doing so) The reason we assign numbers to its abilities, is that we can\'t do this. If this game were advanced VR, it might be possible, but its not, so we have to compromise to match an already compromised environment.
A textual description won\'t cut it, you need some way of knowing what your buying. No person would ever buy something without a hint of what it can do, and its cost is not a fair indication of ability. (gougers exist; benevolent masters exist) What I think we need is 3 things:
1) More detailed weapon stats:
Strength, durability, hit rate, block rate, armor pierce rate, etc should all be tied to the stats of the character and the weapon. Additionally, different weapons (or any mildly complicated object) should be somewhat varied in stats from smith to smith. One swordsmith might make very sharp, but fragile blades. (or vice versa)
2) Visible stats:
The most noticeable portions of these stats, like strength, parry ability, etc. should be seen at the time of sale. More stats should be visible depending on the skill of the user. (the basics and the creator\'s name/location should always be seen) In essence, a customer would hold the product and look at it before buying, thus examining its basic abilities.
3) Try-outs:
With respect to unique or at least expensive weaponry, I think certain shops should have a demo area cordoned off. You could take a potential purchase, and use it briefly against a dummy target of some kind. In the case of armor, you could be hit by a falling log or something. (harder to test...) I\'d even go as far as a 3 day return policy on undamaged goods. (if a weapon durability/breakability system is ever implemented, that is)
We simply must admit the fact that items must be evaluated before purchase in some way. It is not \"realistic\" to have to buy something to know anything about it, especially in a non-pre-packaged world.
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i\'m an Enkidukai
*shrugs*
what a twisted world we live in that at times the debate over whether or not numeric information about a weapons capabilities are visible to the user due to realism gets somewhat heated when an Elf and an Enkidukai are part of the discussion. :P
even advanced VR would still have it\'s limitations comparable to real world. i think a texual discription could cut it if we at least had a baseline. i would prefer the numbers the computer is going to use in it\'s internal calculations, since those would be the most accurate. (as in anything i purchase, i want the most accurate information i can get.) i can understand those who would rather gamble on being ripped off for the \"realism\" of it. that is why i suggested making it optional. (hmmm, that could add an entire thread on having merchants who will try to rip you off...)
making base stats universally available and advanced stats reveal based on character skill ranking is an interesting idea, as is the \"trial area\" ... rather like test driving a car...
more yet has been added to the table to study and think about :)
--- keder maloy
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Friends, the number indicating damage in the item description window is base damage number. It is used to judge the weapon. While actual damage depends on many of our skills, strength etc and their are special formulas to calculate the final damage, all i am doing is to show the base damage.
So you want realism?? go then and remove all the numbers indicating you\'r strenght, Endurance, Intelligence, Mining Skill etc...
For strength we can do that the more the powerfull you are the stronger you\'r body deforms ingame, that\'ll require tons of code and models.
And then let us remove the HP indicator bar it\'s so exact and breaks realism, isn\'t it?
That\'s all yet in the game. Please ideas are thousand but implimentation is hard. See all the RPGs in the market and tell me which don\'t use numbers to indicate item\'s stats?? maybe one or two such games but 95% show...
So no offense. Numbers will be there and make you\'r mind to face them.
Good job Keder, in reducing alot what i had to write. :)
And if you want realism i can say this:
The Octarchs in yliakum have set a strict scale for the quality and damage rating of weapons and they have advised all the mercheants to rate their weapons and armours according to that scale precisely, so the citizens of Yliakum have less confusion while buying one. :P
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I actually think that if you want to have a better RPG and a less pwp game, indications like the ones about the skills and the hp and such should be changed for making them more RPG oriented.
There are MUDs fully RPG that try out to do that, now, obviously there are MUDs also that are not and this is just depending from what the implementors want.
If they want to have people interested just in the RPG and not so much in \"achieving\" something, they concentrate on such details, if instead they care more of other aspects than that doesn\'t matter.
I would personally substitute this kind of indicator with something more \"verbose\", instead of 0 - 200 in the skills it would be already an improvement to have:
you don\'t know anything about it, really good knowledge.
And so on for everything.
Certainly, it becomes then a matter of layout and usability, but instead of using long sentence like the ones above, it would be interesting to use a synthetic single word.
And so on...
The RPGs that I have seen in the market are merely hack and slash games. At least from my point of view, due to my experience of RPGs.
Implementation is hard but possible, depending from which is the goal.
If the goal is to make a \"real\" RPG (and not a pwp field) then certains things are better than other, if it is the other way round other things will be better.
From what I understand, since you are underlining that numbers will be there, I am afraid to see PS growing less in the RPG sense. But if this what you - community, devs, fans, whoever - want, well, good for you ;)
I don\'t play so I was just making a simple suggestion based on my experience of games and RPGs and .. yes, implementations.
Matter of taste, I guess.
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I agree that a raw number is not the bet way to go about things for skills. Though, if one was asked to rate themself from 1 - 10 on a skill, they would probably get fairly close. I would say that the best way might be to have skills go from 0.000 to 10.000 (no big jumps at the integers, except for using them as milestones for prerequisite requirements to something; lvl4 needed to do whatever, etc.) Just, only show a rounded integer value. This compromise gives a detailed way for the computer to keep track of what it needs to, and still gives something reasonable to the player.
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it\'s been my experience that the players make or break the RP of any RPG. if all the numbers were stripped away and the code close so no one could look at what the code was doing, it is still the players\' choice if they hack-n-slash everything or if they roleplay. i\'ve played with ADnD groups that the only one who even saw the dice was the DM, she did *all* of the rolls and calculations and the rest of us *strictly* roleplayed. (in some cases to the extent that anything said out of character during play was penalized... one person\'s character ended up in the loony bin for a while :P ).
other groups i\'ve played with had calculators for each player and charts of weapon/spell/etc. stats so the player knew at a glance all the stats of anything found or purchased.
there were occasions that the group with the calculators roleplayed better, just depended on who showed up that evening. to them the calculators weren\'t a distraction but rather a tool. an advanced mage is going to have an almost instictive knowledge about the strength and value of a particular spell. all of us being ordinary humans don\'t have that experience to draw from, so to roleplay better, we need some kind of supliment to simulate that kind of knowledge.
at times it would be nice to turn that off. i don\'t need to know the precise percent of HP i have while having an idle conversation in the plaza, though if i came back to the plaza to recover from a particularly fierce battle, i would like to see near death, badly wounded, wounded, barely wounded, uninjured as i recover. were it real life, i could feel the recovery as my pain faded and my strength returned. it isn\'t.
*shrugs*
most likely the debate will rage on with the majority both sides not happy. this is why i suggest the ability to set thresholds of numbers vs worded approximations. some would set it to conceal all numbers, some would set it to reveal all numbers. most would find a balance in the middle, comfortable to the individual using it.
i also don\'t see this as coming soon. each level of adjustment in this threshold idea would be it\'s own set of code and dialog, meaning each area it is used would have to have at least adjustments to accomidate each setting available.
i am greatly impressed with the devs\' progress on the technical aspects of writing the game. the balance of playability, in everything from how much information is available to things like there being no sword on the rogue\'s body when he is clearly wielding one while he hits me, is something that will come in time. there is no good way to rush balance. numbers vs. words is one of those matters of balance that will come in time and i hope will come with variability since each play has her own comfort levels.
--- keder maloy
postscript: thank you DivineLight. i take that as a compliment, and i especially like the edict from the Octarchs. ;)
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The idea of having words indicate HP was fair, i like that.
Phrases like:
\"Healthy, Slightly Wounded, Wounded, Seriously Wounded, Close to Death, Moment Of Angels, Died\"
would be really cool.
But again some ppl will complain some will be happy and some will say it\'s fine the either way.
The last desecion would be of Talad.
I am working on adding a method for monster strength assesment so you can decide weather to attack or not, and that would be text based no numbers there :), Happy?
Talad told me to have some thing like this:
He is stronger than you.
He is weaker.
He is looking dangerous.
Better not disturb him.
etc.
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Originally posted by DivineLight
...I am working on adding a method for monster strength assesment so you can decide weather to attack or not, and that would be text based no numbers there :), Happy?
Talad told me to have some thing like this:
He is stronger than you.
He is weaker.
He is looking dangerous.
Better not disturb him.
etc.
Yes i really like that idea...im sure they had the same idea on Star Wars Galaxies(i played the 14 day free trial) but i would like to see that for NPC\'s and Human players. Like added onto the information button.
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I was wondering in what would that be related...
I mean since we have no levels, we just raise skills... how is it made?
He compares the stats + all skills?
But that\'s a great idea, this way we can decide who/what should we hunt.
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maybe strength + weapon skill(s) of the weapons your opponent is using (if opponent is not holding any weapons then just strength)
But then you couldn\'t just look at any old person and figure out how good they are at certain skills, maybe when you become mored skilled with a weapon your character holds it better and uses it better. So you could tell by how he uses the weapon(s). When you get higher strength, you character should look bigger/stronger so you could tell their strength by how strong they look.
What your character is wearing should also slighlty affect it. So if someone was walking around in the best magic clothes in PS then you would probably think that he was good at magic.
Then when you examined the person, you would get:
He seems very skilled with a (weapon name)
He seems to still be learning how to use that (weapon name)
He looks like he knows how to use that (weapon name) fairly well
etc.
and
He seems very strong
He seems pretty weak
He seems kind of strong
etc.
then you could combine those:
He seems very strong but he doesn\'t seem to know how to use his (weapon name) very well
etc.
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The first step in monster lvl assesment has been taken. don\'t excpect it to be fully awesom. It\'s not that good yet. As you all know we don\'t have a lvl system. So in the code you cannot compare a monster with your character that easily.
Checking all the skills which affect combat ( sword, shield, light medium heavy armour, magic ways, weapon type skills etc etc) is a big task.
Devs are thinking ahead for implementing a Threat Lvl system ingame. That threat lvl will be measure of a monster\'s combat abilities along with all subskills. Until then enjoy comparing of 6 basic stats with your foes.
It\'s not that bad, you\'ll get enough idead about your opponents.