PlaneShift
Fan Area => The Hydlaa Plaza => Topic started by: Foresteer on May 21, 2005, 08:32:58 am
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Clicky (http://www.lp.org/article_142.shtml)
Clicky... The Next Generation (http://www.lp.org/yourturn/archives/000021.shtml)
Clicky Mach III (http://www.gp.org/press/pr_2005_05_16.html)
Clicky v.4.0.1 (http://news.com.com/FAQ+How+Real+ID+will+affect+you/2100-1028_3-5697111.html)
*its a bit of a read but i will at least assume you have read the first 2 clickies*
As the title says \"This Just Cuts It...\" Somehow our current government has found a way to F*** up EVERN MORE! (we arent gonna make it to 2008 sorry guys :( )
I am NOT showing ID just to cross state lines.. sorry bush and the rest of the senate if you think so you can just screw yourself X(
Yeah SS (funny how you share the same name and function in the same way as hitlers did isnt it?) i just said on the internet bush and the senate can take some device and ram it up thier pertinant orifices if they think im going to follow this.
In fact i have with a vengence resumed the research into the citizenship requirments of some other western (and some of the better eastern) nations.. as one person so boldly and truthfully put it
\"Welcome to the U.S.A.S.S.R comrades!\"
thats right people get your brown suits and hats with red crosses with crossed bible and sickles in the middle!! (not red stars.. instead of marx\'s athiest adgenda we have to follow the bush jesusville adgenda i mean why live to long with stem cells? but thats another rant about out base rights being stolen by the \"keystone kops\" government.. back to the current)
the articles just about sum it up.. i hope you are as outraged as i am! If it doesnt get repealled in the next 3 years when it takes effect, guess what everybody?! the USA is minus one \"pissed off green\" and some other country is plus one \"pissed off and pissed of at his former home country green\" although i\'ll be much less pisssed knowing bush and the rest of the new facist state isnt breathing down my neck :D
Thoughts anybody?
NOTE: also in further \"conservitives for the people not big government\" big government not for the people news all recruiters had to take the day off to \"supposedly\" learn how to not con sick both mentaly and pysically high school students into fighting in bush\'s iraq
Actualy they are just gonna learn slicker ways to do it...
anyway heres the details (they promise a job skill and collage HA! They actualy dont teach a job skill.. just how to point a gun and shoot.. and how to die for a religion and facist belief you very easily could care nothing about )
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2005/05/12/army_plans_day_off_from_recruitment/
i dunno jackasses maybe people dont wanna join the army because you are ABSOLUTELY WRONG and dont wanna play into your grab of oil and land?!?!?! naaahh ya think?
Funny think about doing the blatently wrong thing.. even saying \"cuz hes a bad man and jesus hates arabs\" wont pull the wool over everybodies eyes... yeah sorry bout that :-\\ *not really*
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You seem a little tense you should try one of those Kudzu Koolers that I saw on the site in your sig.
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hahaha the spocktails! (i say that yesterday.. that does look kinda tasty)
yeah im a little tense about it.. i just learned i am going to be treated *worse* then the common criminal is currently.. what US citizen wouldnt be?
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Land of the free eh? well nothing wrong with the country and it\'s inhabitants, but the government... well, another reason I am glad I don\'t live in the US...
Off Topic: when I first read this, I thought it was another of those WWIII threads...
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Foresteer, you are not alone.
I live in Los Angeles, which went (by some estimates) 95% for Kerry. Civil rights is one of my hot-button issues. Even thinking about RealID my blood pressures goes up.
It\'s not even noon, and now I want a Grey Goose martini...
EDIT: For people not from the U.S., the Republican party (Bush\'s party) was founded on the idea of states rights vs. federal rights. Bush and his cronies crapped all over this idea with the stupid Terry Schiavo thing and now the RealID, which is a national identification card. OH, there\'s more, but not I\'m too annoyed to continue.
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Yeah what really boils my blood about it is it passed
100-0!! no opposition by anybody! I think some strange things are going on o.O.
*Foil Hat Time* Ok bush opposes just about everything that lengthens the american lifespan (old people dont spend muchmoney OR pay many taxes) Over the years with products and the \"Xtreme @narchy\" movement has only served to make americas youth politcally apethetic (all of america seems to be). The news muffles anything thats not \"the party line\" (just like the U.S.S.R) and touts the \"governments great doings\" that really do nothing.
I mean if this was the 1960s there would be millions of people storming the capitol young and old alike.. i dare say American Revolution Against \"King George The 2nd\" would be winding up.
Ohhh yes my friends.. they bided thier time, but the McCarthys and Jim Crows of the world have bided thier time.. Socialistic Facism and once again reared its ugly head; not in iraq, not in europe Or asia but on the HOME FRONT.
what really steams me is its like the \'60s never happened now X( i mean all those students teachers rebels and trailblazers basicaly spent thier lives for nothing... its like we are in the 1950\'s where whatever the bible is \"said to say\" by those in power who read it is just done by the masses. Well at least we got part of the \'50s \"american dream\" back.. the traitorous part anyway :/.
*McCarthy Style \"Terrorist Trails\" And \"Al Queda\" Blacklisting, anybody?*
The whole terrorsist thing has been warped, yes we\'ve been attacked, WITH A COUNTER-ATTACK we struck first by building our bases wherever the hell our dictators felt and by changeing the world-wide politcal scene.. these people *most anyway* i actlualy feel are justified in many of thier riots and action. They see a problem and they take to the streets and *try to* STOP IT. not like fat-assed yuppie america where \"God says respect you leaders even though they are the closest thing to satan we will ever see\" and we just sit at home and bitch about it, and even when those of us DO act it gets muffled.. More people protested iraq then did vietnam.. yet you NEVER HEARD OF IT!!
In short... by shares in ammunition compainies.. we\'ll all be rich when \"Freedom Wars: King George Strikes Back\" happens.
Everything America had in checks and balances has been swept away. the government does at it pleases
\"Welcome to 1984 my friends its only 21 years late\".
PC is even forging newspeak.. they use \"more correct words\" for things such as violent uprising against us just doing as we please \"uprising against our freedom\". look around you people.. jeez i spent most of my life gearing up to blast the NWO to hell when it raised its ugly head...
And I\'ll be damned if it didnt sneak up on me ;(
Good to hear it buddha... now anybody got any ideas on how o roll back the political clock? ive halted all hobbies and have buckled down on thinking of ways to turn it around.
Hell i fear the sun and socialising more the facism itself *:P* and ive been ordering pamphlets and walking up to strangers to spread the word
Final though: take action people
(even non-americans can help... more then you think, if YOUR politicians find out about it and this law gets a critique from a forein power then its not only going to make news.. but will put it in the american eye and make OUR senators squemish about losing votes and popular opinion.. wanna help make america not be a power-hungry beast.. heres your chance to help! :D )
We may not prevail in the short term. but when people remeber how we said it was gonna be like crossing into mexico just to get from one state to another, they will relise and they will be PISSED.. it may take a lot to rile americans these days but we still hold the ideal when we finaly DO get everybody pissed.. things change and it gets scary >:| heheheheh anyway GOOD LUCK!
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As much as I enjoy Buddha\'s posts I have to point out for those that don\'t live in the states, that LA is in California. Which is also refered as the left coast. The fact that LA voted for Kerry by 95% shows how out of touch LA is with the rest of the country (not sure where that number came from, but I trust Buddha\'s numbers). Speaking of numbers, Bush won the popular vote by a wide margin. Bigger than most of the other presidents.
This is not too say Bush is perfect, or some how he will be elected for a third term, or turn the US into a theocracy as some have claimed. None of that is going to happen.
Back on topic. The id is nessasary because are Drivers licenses are worthless as id cards. It is just is too easy to get one. As for loosing your privacy, that has already happend, and will continue to happen. It is a global trend that shows no sign of stopping.
Here is a quote from MSNBC on what Kerry would do for security. I doubt Kerry would have any objections to national ID cards. ( the beauty of quoting Kerry is he plays both sides of the fense!)
Kerry: Kerry has made fulfilling the 9/11 Commission?s anti-terrorism blueprint a top priority, vowing to ?immediately implement? its recommendations if elected. Kerry has a five-point plan for improving homeland security: improving country?s ability to track down terrorists by overhauling the intelligence community and how these agencies interact; plug security holes at airports, seaports and borders;
@Buddha - Relax video games are getting better and better soon you will never need to leave the house anyways!
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Howdy again,
The 95% figure is not accurate. I know it is somewhere in there, as the central california valley voted mostly for Bush but the cities went for Kerry, and the state itself was about 80% Kerry. Thus the cities were greater than 80% for Kerry and some people said as high as 95%.
But, as a point of fact, Bush did not win the popular vote by a wide margin. It was a rather slim margin. I could get the figures, but it doesn\'t seem like it\'s worth our time here.
Last, Bush ran on an anti-gay, anti-terrorism platform. Most of the cities went Kerry--you know, the people who actually have to interact with gay people and are the ones that will be affected by terrorism. If you live in Sioux City, Iowa, neither homosexuals (who are strongly closeted there) nor terrorists (who agree it\'s not worth their time) will be an actual \"menace\" to you. Thus, it is the Midwest and rural areas who are out of touch.
YOu know, I should stop this. This isn\'t the place for political debate. I am very frustrated by this administration for a number of reasons.
So... think the Lakers will get Phil Jackson back?
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Heh! Basketball!
Now your pressing my buttons! Pro sports today make our government look like a shining emerald city!
Back on topic. I have lived in California all my life, I have lived in the Bay Area most of my life, have freinds that are gay, voted for Democrats, been to Powwow\'s and earth days and listened to NPR, and bunch of other liberal activities.
I challenge you to see the other side of the coin. For one year, pretened your a red neck country boy and kick some liberal arse.
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That is an interesting excercise. I do actually try that once in a while. I come back to the same fundamental problem: there are some positions which are inherently indefensible. I am an agnostic. I do not believe in any sort of god or soul or divine force. So a good example of \"stepping into the other guy\'s shoes\" is to try to think like a Christian.
So let\'s pretend I\'m an American style fundamentalist Christian. I would believe the homosexuality is some sort of offense to God. Further, I would believe that it is a personal choice rather than biological consequence. Now, I would be forced to conclude that gays are deliberately sinning and doing Satan\'s work. Since I am now a fundamentalist, I conclude that homosexuals are actually evil and must be stopped at all costs.
Of course, fundamentalist christianity is inherently indefensible. All you can say is: \"God said it\", though you cannot even defend that god actually said it because of biblical inconsistencies and ambiguities. Thus it is an article of faith and completely divorced from the realm of debate.
I get myself into these spins all the time. I think I can see why these fundamentalists do things that I think are so terribly immoral, but there motives are excluded from debate.
This leads me to an example I like to use. I expect a large majority of forum members are men. As men, and probably kind of nerdy men, we have experienced the \"best friend\" phenomenon with some woman we were interested in. How frustrating is it to hear her say \"I just want a guy who will treat me with respect\" ? I mean, here you are, treating her with respect and she doesn\'t even consider wanting you. So what\'s up?
Well, I have come to the conclusion that people really don\'t know what they want. Men who treat women poorly tend to attract women, though none of them ever complain to their friends \"I just want a guy to abuse me\". Why? Well, rudeness and self-interest sometimes come off as strength.
(I\'m getting back to topic now)
So when you ask a fundamentalist why they hate homosexuals, they present some reason like \"god hates f**s\" or something retarded like that. In fact, they are expressing a gut instinct they don\'t understand in a way they feel is sociably acceptable. They don\'t understand their motives, so they create reasons. Unfortunately, religion, like alcohol, is often a socially acceptable reason for immoral behavior.
Ask yourself this question: Why do you avoid the odor of feces? Probably all of us find it disgusting, but there is no good reason. We could come up with one, but that is a high level justification for something very basic.
Because of this, I try as hard as I can to make decisions based on reason. I don\'t always succeed. But reason leads me to very \"liberal\" opinions. For instance, ~80% (I don\'t know the actual figure) of gun violence in the U.S. is a member of the gun owner\'s family using it on another member of the gun owner\'s family. Therefore, we should reduce the number of guns in this nation. This seems reasonable to me.
In much the same way, a RealID card will probably be used by credit card, insurance and marketing companies much more often than the federal government. More U.S. citizens have died in Iraq as a member of an invading army than have been killed by terrorists of any nation. Thus, reason tells me this war is a failure. Things like that.
Wow, I really went on. My appreciation to any of you that have made it this far...
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http://washingtontimes.com/metro/20030730-093823-2459r.htm
Now that I have grown up a bit I think it is naive to think that all county folk are out of touch with reality. Consider this, you live in LA. A place made famous by Disney land and Hollywood. Now who is in touch with reality?
Back to topic
National ID is no big deal. I mean really how many times do you cross state lines? And it is not like every road has a checkpoint. And you?re already required to carry all sorts of ID anyways.
[Edit: I got the numbers for Bush Kerry. Bush 52 Kerry 47. Seems like were both wrong on that one. Unless you think 5% is slim. For comparison Reagan got 59% in what was called a landslide]
[Edit: Girls are not the only ones who make dumb dating decisions, Good guys dating bad girls is a stereotype too]
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I totally agree with your second edit.
Showing papers to cross state lines is a big deal. Think of the Soviet Union, the communist Eastern block and Nazi Germany. Do you think this information is really going to stop a single terrorist? Remember, all the 9/11 hijackers had valid visas. We should have been able to track them through their visas, but we didn\'t.
Show me another nation that requires paper for internal travel and I\'ll show you a dictatorship.
5% is not a large margin, especially not compared to other presidents.
EDIT: Now I\'m all irritated again. Not with you, but the situation.
We have just sent our young men, and some of my friends, overseas to die for \"freedom\" and \"liberty\". What does that mean? What do \"freedom\" and \"liberty\" mean to you, to anyone?
When the day comes that we are under video surveillance within our own homes, noone will complain. That\'s because it won\'t happen overnight, it will be the culmination of many steps. Requiring papers for travel is one of those steps. Soon, you won\'t just need an ID, you will need permission. And don\'t think I\'m being melodramatic. Ashcroft saw to it under the Patriot Act that federal agents can enter your home when you are away and never inform you of it. Now, the Bush Administration is trying to allow them to do this without a warrant. This is what Bush stands for:
1. National ID to allow internal travel.
2. Prisoners held without attorneys as long as they are dubbed \"terrorists\". American citizens have been sent over seas (to Cuba) to be held without bail, trial, representation or notice to their families.
3. Federal Agents may enter your home at any time without informing you or charging you with a crime.
4. The U.S. Congress has the right to determine your personal decisions with regards to euthanasia, marriage and reproduction.
5. National policy, including the decision to go to war, is crafted by Halliburton and the proceedings are not available to the public. (Cheney\'s recent trial was thrown out by a Bush appointee)
This is not Reagan\'s republican party. This is a nightmare. Don\'t be an apologist for fascism.
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[Edit: I replaced the dumb remarks with dots. I was just a bit frustrated with Bush bashing. Just to make things clear, I do think Bush has made mistakes, but I don\'t think he deserves the nonsense of the original poster. Truthfull I should know better than respond to this, so I will shut up now]
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Ahh this is the Ps chatter I have been missing for a while.. at least its back =).. anyway let me throw my hat into the ring if I may *and I may :P*
Bush makes Herbert Hoover Look Like George Washington (Herbert hoover basicaly brought on the great depression and the rise in american socialistic parties in the 30\'s to combat him)
You Call it \"Bush-Bashing\" I equate it to \"Hitler-Bashing\" or \"Stalin-Bashing\" (leave them alone guys!.. jeez they\'ve made mistakes but thier just trying to help us :rolleyes: )
Not must else to add but Ive been reading some James Carville *aka the \"Rajun Cajun\"* and boy has these books got me psyched.. I totaly recommend them with the uttmost you\'ll listen to me (he has politics, food, freedom and other stuff all in one book :D whats not to like?)
Anyway keep spreading the word of our grave injustice.. im gonna get back to reading
*note yeah... constitutional amendment to legistlate (and voiding the most important precept of the constitution \"speration of church and state\" remeber that thing that keeps the church out of government AND the government out of church? it helps both sides you know) morality *gay marrige*, Halting stem cells to make us live shorter, Privitizing a program hes trying to fix but his \"fixes\" are what broke it in the first place, Murdering 1,000+ our boys to feed his father and cheney *both oil barons go figure*
Your right.. jee willkers that guys swell :) a \"Real American Man\" right up there with McCarthy or Even Jim Crowe!
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1.) If I recall correctly, even France has a national ID already.
2.) The Government already has your information, it\'s just spread out.
3.) Information gathering companies may have more on you than your government.
4.) To compare Bush to Hitler or Stalin trivializes the evil of two of history\'s worst dictators. That alone should be enough to discredit you. That Bushitler BS seems very common among liberals lately, and I feel sad because it distances people from new ideas, ergo less debate, less difference of opinion, fewer solutions. You guys really need to hire a PR consulting firm.
5.) Foresteer, you\'re bordering on making me more conservative with your ranting.
McCarthyism went down the drain, and Bush\'s approval ratings have proggresively gotten lower. Bush will go down the drain, too.
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Originally posted by Monketh
4.) To compare Bush to Hitler or Stalin trivializes the evil of two of history\'s worst dictators. That alone should be enough to discredit you. That Bushitler BS seems very common among liberals lately, and I feel sad because it distances people from new ideas, ergo less debate, less difference of opinion, fewer solutions. You guys really need to hire a PR consulting firm.
Monketh, thank you, thank you, thank you.
This tread upset me way too much for internet drivel. It was not the original poster that upset me as much as Buddha joining them-- looks like I lied about the shutting up part. Well again thank you Monketh.
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I don\'t believe I compared Bush to Hitler or Stalin. That\'s not really my style. If I did, I was exaggerating. I used Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union to demonstrate other historical states that required documentation to move about internally. Can you think of another nation that demands it?
I don\'t think you should shut up, derwoodly. I\'m all about the \"freedom of speech\" thing.
But really, how can you defend the five items I listed? I did use the phrase \"don\'t be an apologist for fascism\", which I stand by. My impression of the right is a bunch of people who have been fooled by this administration. The republicans used to stand for individual liberty, self reliance, and state\'s rights. That is a thing of the past.
If your issues are economic conservatism, then you may have a man in Bush, though I doubt it. If you issues are State\'s rights, well, Bush has stepped all over those. If your issues are individual rights, then the republicans are not your party.
Face it, the right wing has been mostly usurped by the so-called \"neo-cons\". People who put \"Gay Marriage\" ahead of fiscal responsibility. This is not the party that many conservatives signed up for. It\'s like when Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson go off the hook, I somehow feel obligated to defend them because they are on \"my side\".
If you want to have an argument about the national debt or the tax burden the wealthy should bear, I\'m up for that. And I can completely respect that you may disagree, it\'s hard to prove any of those larger economic issues. But, can you really look me straight in the, um, monitor, and say that allowing federal agents to enter your home un-announced, without a warrant and without charging you with a crime is somehow a good thing for this country?
I tell you what, I won\'t defend Clinton\'s sex scandal, which I think was his own private business, if you\'ll just concede that the above is \"illegal search and seizure\".
There is, in my opinion, a large gap between honest to goodness conservatives and the power mad maniacs running the White House and Congress. Unfortunately, the party line conservatives have been railroaded into defending ludicrous and hypocritical legislation. I respect a solid conservative they way I respect an honest Christian. However, televangelists and Dick Cheney deserve none of that respect.
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*points 4 and 5* Ya\'ll are both seemingly under the assumtion that i am a liberal bashing conservitives.. When really when a president of either leaning screws up im up in arms.. ive just only been here during the bush administration.
*Point 1* Well France is wrong but europe doesnt have a constitution, Also i feel they are in a tight balance between facism and socialism *not all of europe.. but a good chunk* almost all the time (yeah i would rant about the EU more but i work on improving MY country.. i figure if europeans want it fixed they would work on it themselves)
*Points 2 and 3*Hey that also is un-constitutional.. but im tackling the newest problem that lowers the bar before trying to raise it.. ya know?
*Point 4 Again* I said they share some same features.. yeah most liberals DO seem to compare him exactly with hitler.. hes not... he hasnt killed 6 million of our boys or iraqis yet, I just tend to think he has \"mini-hitler-itous\" And without the government murders He\'s Pretty Much stalin in his thinking though not his meathods (if you extract communism and add neo-conservitism)
*point 5 again* if your so weak in your belief that you would join something because of something i said then that says more about you then me :\\
(though just the thought of one more bible thumping \"do what god says or die by our hand or the \"devils\" does scare me; but not enough to stifle me)
And on the topic of solutions and debate, what do you do? your so fast to rush to republicans side when critized.. what have you done to reform the party? what have you done to return America to a ethical state? (not a christians morals state as thats even more unconstituional then realID.. just an ethical one)
If you\'ve done something.. anything I respect that, i mean hey at least you tried.. and I\'ll remain silent on this facet of the discussion until you answer
Now for solutions.. If one state ANY state argues the states right clause of the constitution (with allows them not only to suceed if the going gets tough.. because america isnt a nation in its itself its a colilition of tightly orginized 50 mini-nations,also lets them recall their tax money and NULL AND VOID any law within thier bonderies they feel violates both THIER constitution and the USA\'s one) the entire law would fall to shit.. if one state wont do it.. then no states might as well bother
Also its stated that states that dont comply with realID get thier tax funding removed (or as far as ive read thats what it seems). But what if a state refused AND PULLED THIER TAX MONEY TO THE GOVERNMENT?! they wouldnt need federal funding.. every states gets back just about what it pays in taxes anyway (i might be talking out my ass on this one. i read that somewhere but i way me wrong) so ;)
Not the mention what a coup that would be.. it would hit bush and the government right where it hurts.. the coffers (money supply). And would make them seriously consider a repeal.
All that said.. we should just focus on one state insted of everywhere or just protesting in DC. Then the pressure would rise in that state, and then by extention on DC even more then just focusing on DC in the first place :D
Thoughts?
EDIT: well said my friend well said.. i to just draw conclusion of where we are headed.
And i only have a problem with conservitives in that they are Neo-Cons \"vote slaves\" they so seem to believe in either god tells them to vote for them.. or something,
For a group so fiscaly smart can vote for people who put terri shiavo over a trillion dollar budget deficit blows my mind as much as anything ever has.. i\'ve almost given up trying to shake some sense into the party... as you can tell im in combat mode, i used to try facts and easoning to awaken the real converitives.. but basicaly all i got was \"gods plans defy facts\" a few induviduals (not just the carbon copies of some \"touch by an uncle*angel*\" extra) listened but sonn where back where they started, and if they do mean that then that means no reasoning has or will work ;(
EDIT mach II: Also the reason ive been so combative is not only living in the middle of both \"jesusville\" and \"Neo-con-burg\" for my entire childhood life (not much of a childhood i might add.. ive always said i reach teenaged at 10 and adult at 15 mentaly anyway... so im wayy ahead of the synical curve on that one)
So ive seen facist, misogynistic, neo-con, republicanism in all its evil glory.. i sat on the throne of satan and thats why i oppose him so .. you see where it is now (thats why are are so lax and optomistic).. ive seen where it will all end (stressed and pessimistic)
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Wow!
Forester,
If that had been your first post. I would not have been so agravated, and possibly not posted at all (maybe that was the intent). Clearly you have given some thought to your opinions. I would only suggest that you consider that some of your facts are not 100% accurate. I would be more consise but I have real life catching up with me and can not surf the web all night.
Buddha,
Good to hear from your sensible side. I actually think Bush is not a fiscal conservative. Bush is not really my man for exactly the reasons you listed. As too your five points.
1) National ID-- does not seem much different than what we already have. Given the opposition I will do a little more reasearch. You just may convince me it is another Bush mistake.
2)Prisoners in Cuba-- To my knowledge they are not US citizens and deserve no such protection. They are prisoners of War. They are leverage.
3)FBI do as they please-- forgive me, I just don\'t belive this one. There are just too many lawyers for this too work.
4)US congress rights-- yes, actually that is the one branch of government that can change the consitution. So they do have complete control. If they screw up then we elect new members (yes I know it is more complicated than that)
5)National Policy to trade blood for oil-- Not sure I want to touch this one. Lets just say, if it is true, what do you think we should do? allow more offshore drilling, more nuclear power plants? Cuz conservation just isn\'t going to cut it. And don\'t even say hydrogen, because hydrogen comes from burning natural gas.
Take care all,
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Yeah sometimes my meaning gets lost in my trying to get it all out XD im stupid like that :P (i was tryig to aggrivate however.. sometimes seems like the only way to get people moving.. besides *realID* is something to be angry about, no?)
Yeah i openly stated i was just talking flowers and bung on some of it :D if i am wrong on something tell me about it.. it only serves to educate me (thats always been my stance)
EDIT:
#1 its very different... its more info on one card then criminals usualy have in thier files (also the information they have now is unconstitutional.. we *libertarian types* can only piss on so many fires those types light im afraid :( )
#2 geneva converntion.. plus how we treat our POW\'s is how ours will get treated.. also any suspected terrorists (and by suspected i mean there is a bounty for bringing in a \"terrorist\" to the us military.. people make money bringing in all manner of \"terrorists\" and collecting thier cash) that go thier arent always what they appear.. they naturaly \"confess\" same way the \"heritics\" of the spanish inquisition \"confessed\"
*2nd edit also they arent \"pows\" bush-rummy skirted that law by calling them \"terrorists\" (people who may very well be absolutely innocent but where brought in for a bounty as stated above) and so they arent bound by it *the converntion*.. its just one immoral abu-garib every day there from what ive been told and imagine (not being bound by any laws makes government projects go haywire... look at area 51 *ill cover this if you ask*) o.O
#3 believe it my friend :-\\ the system has failed you more then you seem to know
#4 heh i love the optimistic ones :P
#5 for civilites sake and im trying to get realID repealed with this thread (or at least inspire some people here to try) im not touching this one either.. its a whole \'nother rant anyway
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I\'m glad we\'re back to respectful disagreement. Also, let\'s concentrate on the original purpose of this thread. For that, I have one simple question:
How much government surveillance is too much?
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Just FYI, I don\'t like Bush, haven\'t since the before end of his first term. It just pisses me off to see this loser compared to Stalin or Hitler. They make him look like an average rich white guy, he\'s not even as far along as ol\' Vladimir Putin. He hasn\'t been above 50% with moderates since January of last year, and as a fiscal conservative, if his administration was a corporation it would have been scrapped long ago. If it takes a die-hard Democrat to balance the budget again, good, the change will be pleasant.
As for things making me more conservative, if something drags down everything with it, I wouldn\'t want to be associated with it, and it diescredits some things associated with it. It isn\'t going to be enough to make me go out and find Jesus, though. Nothing short of God\'s hand flying out of the clouds and commanding it be so would make me go neo-con.
To me, ultimately, the ID question is a question of how a national ID is implemented. There is a way you can do this right.
Sidenote:As for how much states actually get back from federal funding, the amount is getting smaller and smaller. If you include indirect returns such as military bases, it isn\'t so bad, but dollars for never-ending social programs and military spending funded with loans from China rarely make it back home.
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According to the constitution ANY government surveillence is too much.. (the government cant even know where you work)
also *income* taxes arent in the constitution *article 1 section 8 clause 1, and all of article 1, section 9 also applies*.. as the government forceably steals this money from you.. you get no choise to NOT pay the money.. and even then you cant decide what its used for..
*edit: while there is a constitutional amendment on income tax.. neo-cons are also trying to amend the constitution to elect arnold, and ban gay marrage and also got it ammended to ban liquer.. so yeah :rolleyes:
i think states SHOULD hold back thier taxes and use them inside the state
Screw a dem vote for Badnarik :P
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On the topic of National ID--- I read some of proposed law. I really could not find all of the stuff you were talking about. To me it looks just like the ID I already have. Here is a snipet of the LAW taken from Senator Sensenbrenner\'s site (I believe he wrote it).
(b) Minimum Document Requirements- To meet the requirements of this section, a State shall include, at a minimum, the following information and features on each driver\'s license and identification card issued to a person by the State:
(1) The person\'s full legal name.
(2) The person\'s date of birth.
(3) The person\'s gender.
(4) The person\'s driver\'s license or identification card number.
(5) A digital photograph of the person.
(6) The person\'s address of principle residence.
(7) The person\'s signature.
(-8-) Physical security features designed to prevent tampering, counterfeiting, or duplication of the document for fraudulent purposes.
(9) A common machine-readable technology, with defined minimum data elements.
[Edit: I found a lot of the items Forester was mentioning on a web site for Imigration Lawers. The hole story is rather intriging. This bill was passed by the house by an overwhelming majority, then turned down by the Senate under presure from some 600 or so special intrest groups that really run the gamet on idealology. Then the bill was added to a Millitary funding bill where it pass through both houses like grease through a goose. It sounds like a great bill to me. It urks 1000\'s of lawers, closes our borders, gives the FBI teeth, and your ID will look great with that picture of your retna scan on it. What is so bad about that?]
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Well the FBI really shouldnt exist much less have \"teeth\" and our borders shouldnt be closed o.O
Also as ive been trying to get you to realise the drivers licence ans SS# though something you are used to is still HIGHLY illegal
The government is not \"entitled\" to anything its not our \"leader\" its our slave it does as we ask to keep us safe.. it does not tell us what to do WE tell IT what to do for us (or are suppost to be able to)
Should your mailman know where you work nour tele# your salary? same thing with government.. used to the drivers licence was used to in the 40\'s-50\'s show you can drive (it fails at that) not as an ID card.. it would have been struck down if it was though ti would evolve into that
Its called the shifting baseline.. YOU dont see anything different because you where born into it.. your greatgrampa would pick up a rifle and shoot government members for allowing such facism into the country as he didnt have and didnt need such strangle-hold controls placed on him by \" the molesting uncle\" Uncle Sam
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I see your point: Conservitives do not want the ID as it means more government agencies getting involved in there life. Liberals also do not want the ID, because they do not want the illegal aliens tracked and deported. There were a lot of other reasons as well. 600 or so special intrest group from both sides of the spectrum. Even my friends think it is a bad idea.
I think they are all wrong. It is not that I am just used to using my drivers license as an ID. Actually I am not. My credit card has my pictured right on it and I almost never get asked for it.
This is the digital information age. Every thing I own has its own ID. I want one too. It should be credit card sized with the American flag as a 3D back ground and in the forground a picture of my face. No fingerprints or scans that is silly. It should take the place of all of my other plastic in my wallet.
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Hey Foresteer
My friend I will buy you a first class ticket out of America sense you seem to hate this country so much. God I have so much to say but not sure how many liberals there really are on these boards so I will hold on to it right now.
Aranis
(libralism = mental disorder)
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Originally posted by mikewsnc
Hey Foresteer
My friend I will buy you a first class ticket out of America sense you seem to hate this country so much. God I have so much to say but not sure how many liberals there really are on these boards so I will hold on to it right now.
Aranis
(libralism = mental disorder)
WOOP WOOP! i was wondering when the short bus would pull up with the default \"compliments of the red, white and blue stick a boot up your ass if you dont think in our cookie cutter\" answer... looks like it has :P
yeah baseline liberals are kinda flaky.. no more then fiscal conservitives though :\\ (now neo-con/oil monger and feminazi/anarchist are forms of mental illness i will concede most rapidly) but hey they are valid spectrums... what does liberal discussion have to do with me though? o.O *thinks he missed something*
Anyway check out \"The Libertarian Party and Other Minor Political Parties in the United States\" written by Joseph W. Hazlett II (puplished by McFarland Publishing) its quite a good read that shows a 3rd party of some form has been building steadily for some time and the Libertarian party could be the final fruition of the 3 party dream (it shows all sides of all minor parties. even the whig party of 100+ years ago :D )
EDIT: Derwoodly i seem to detect some of modernism *not really an insult.. just an observation* in what you say.. do you really believe we need all this info on us? Or have you heard the buzz-word \"information age\" so long you actualy believe it?
We get along fine and i have no info on you really :\\ you boss/teacher doesnt have much info *unless you gave it to him/her*and ya\'ll function right proper *i suppose*.. try out http://www.lp.org read about ther and try the book i listed.. you\'d be supprized how little the government needs to manage your safety (what is suppost to be its only job).. Its grown addicted to the power it stole long ago and had resisted the change of freedom back to what it was
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Hey Mike,
Is your offer good for me, too? I\'m going on my honeymoon and we could use even a one way fare to Costa Rica. We want to leave on July 27th. I suppose you won\'t spot me for the return trip, as you\'re trying to get rid of me. But at least Amerka will be safe for 7-10 days from nasty dissention!
PM when you\'ve got it. I\'m thinking of taking TACA airlines, but I\'d be greatful for anything.
If you change your mind, you\'re being unpatriotic. You know, this country was founded on the principle \"Love it or leave it.\" You have a duty to pay my way out of the country.
EDIT: Oh my god, how did I screw up \"grateful\"? Ouch.
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Forester,
First of all I was joking about the information age stuff. I was trying to get your goat, in the same way you did in your first post. However, after a couple of nights of internet surfing, I hate to say it but I have to agree with you (on one point :P ) We don\'t need the national ID.
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Well, Foresteer, I happen to like having the Federal Bureau of Investigation, prevention of illegal immgration, the military, social security, medicare, medicaid, and many other federal programs. Granted, bureaucracy could be cut down on quite a bit, and there are many programs which should be cut.
But to be quite frank, I do not care if you think the federal income tax unconstitutional, nor do I care if somebody other than yourself knowing your real name scares you dearly. Sometimes that fear you show makes me wonder if you are hiding something.
Advocates of privacy must be willing to have themselves searched, otherwise it would seem rather suspicious.
Mike: Uh, kidding, please?
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Originally posted by buddha
Hey Mike,
Is your offer good for me, too? I\'m going on my honeymoon and we could use even a one way fare to Costa Rica. We want to leave on July 27th. I suppose you won\'t spot me for the return trip, as you\'re trying to get rid of me. But at least Amerka will be safe for 7-10 days from nasty dissention!
PM when you\'ve got it. I\'m thinking of taking TACA airlines, but I\'d be greatful for anything.
If you change your mind, you\'re being unpatriotic. You know, this country was founded on the principle \"Love it or leave it.\" You have a duty to pay my way out of the country.
EDIT: Oh my god, how did I screw up \"grateful\"? Ouch.
LMAO nothing I can really say. You put me at a lose of words.
Aranis
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Originally posted by Monketh
Well, Foresteer, I happen to like having the Federal Bureau of Investigation, prevention of illegal immgration, the military, social security, medicare, medicaid, and many other federal programs. Granted, bureaucracy could be cut down on quite a bit, and there are many programs which should be cut.
But to be quite frank, I do not care if you think the federal income tax unconstitutional, nor do I care if somebody other than yourself knowing your real name scares you dearly. Sometimes that fear you show makes me wonder if you are hiding something.
Advocates of privacy must be willing to have themselves searched, otherwise it would seem rather suspicious.
Mike: Uh, kidding, please?
Meh nope i just value my privacy.. nothing much to be hiding, most of my life had been spent in front of a Snes or a book :P (unless pr0nography is something to be ashamed of :D ?) And why should i be searched? Everybody has something to hide.. would you stand naked on the streets telling the world everything youd ever done that is embarassing or clumsy?
Addnote: Im not fearful of people knowing my name or where i live (right to own a gun baby! though soon to pave way for our new government we wont be allowed to own those so we couldn\'t oppose the military no matter what they did wether it be raping our wives or killing our children but i digress) i prefer it doesnt become common knowledge sure, But whould you like it if the government knew everything (favorite food, girlfriends \"preferred treatment\" in bed? mothers sleep schedual?) People have never ONCE, NEVER exloited too much info. Am i fearful? Slightly.. mostly angry.
Well im just saying we worked fine without those things (income tax, immigration laws, medicare) As you dont need medicare if you never had to pay a tax for it (unless you where stupid you\'d save the money on your own.. and when people didnt have a bloated government baby-sitting them thier entire lives Americans where very smart and self-sufficient)
Ok lets rewind government to about i dunno 1820 it worked fine... there was hardly any government.. it did just what it is suppost to do.. protect the nation with a standing military (with citizens able to form the 2nd brsnch of the military.. the militia.. which i might add trained militia won the battle for boston in the war of 1812 and the entire revolutionary war.. in fact any war that has made it onto our soil the militia won as by obvious extention the military was abroud or just about wiped out)
And provide infrastructure for the nation... they didnt even know how many people where in the country (census has only one purpose.. population taxes IE: Ceaser only had a census taken when he needed a new tax)
You can work under your boss without having the government know every minute your at work
(sometimes especialy as we get closer to the government and military doing as it pleases in a police state.. the government DOES NOT need to be able to find you) \"we evidence you killed so-in-so we need to arrest you..\" \"but i didnt!\" \"we are the police we arent wrong are you questioning us?\" *goes to jail* *the officer that actualy did the murder high-fives his pals for getting him off* Dramitization sure you look at where it is.. i look at where it will end at this pace
Oh mike? considering i havent had a vacation or money for one in.. ohhh *carries the 5 divided by 3.14* NEVER i have been wanting to travel a bit.. europe, S. Korea, Tiawan Or japan are fine :) just PM me the ticket confermation number.. and thanks pal :tup: (make sure its round trip.. you said get me out of the country.. never perminantly)
EDIT: OH OH OH!!! this is the SHIZ!! (http://gorptravel.away.com/xnet/one-product.tcl?product_id=115077)
Also Good (http://www.12travel.com)
Man your such a stand up guy =) (better call your friend.. he owes you*or me i can buy the trip if you like*about $1,000)
Edit2: Actualy im so thankful i\'ll plan the trip and save you the trouble :D.. these guys are great for sending Ca$h (http://www.westernunion.com) thanks again man!