PlaneShift
Fan Area => The Hydlaa Plaza => Topic started by: fken on May 28, 2005, 12:39:34 pm
-
dont think it\'s anti americanism!
When you are ironic toward american system (capitalism, individualism, ...), you are considered like an anti-american... it\'s good to know. Are you thinking I will become a terrorist?
What will happen if I make fun of Japanese system? or african\'s one? I answer: nothing will happen. But once you speak about american there is a problem...
Monketh, I despise individualism, I despise savage capitalism and more than everything else I despise irresponsible persons.
Microsoft behave exactly like almost every occidentals company behave or want to behave. Shame on this way to think!
But Monketh, just understand I never said US Citizen are bad because of US big company behaviours... US Citizens are the first who suffer this behaviours:
A very huge number of people there are too poor to say
A very huge number of people live scared thinking they could be killed in their own street (thank to movies or news which are really absolutly mad there)
A little number of people concentrate the power in their own hand and keep it at all cost
Racism is amazing there
USA is the first country which has made a genocide (and the first which succeded)
USA are waging a war every 2 or 3 years.
Once someone say, \"American you are wrong!\", a huge boycott, embargo, and racism begin: childish game.
This is what the great majority of french (maybe european) think about america.
And while the european leaders point at USA saying (implicitely) that USA are an amazing threat, these one start to do exactly the same things here in france (and in europa). There are always more poor people in France, the leaders of big companies behave without responsability and a lot of people lost their job because of their behaviours (France Telecom, Universal (Jean-Marie Messier, a name despised by french today... but dont worry he is still rich and powerful)), Europa created a kind of GPS, called Gallileo, which will allow military prospects. Here in France, dont worry racism exists! especially against Arabian. People feel unsecure everytime (for example my mother who has bought a security key for the house... She live in a good part of the city and in a flat, she was never stolen). Even if African (Ivory Coast) say, let us in peace, french militaries go their and protect the government... (but nobody is sure that the government leader is a good one...)
Monketh I was ironical before but now Im serious, the occidental way of life is insane.
-
Fken, you should check out the NBP international site (http://www.limonka.net). I don\'t know what\'s your fluent language, so just pick one from the list at the right.
Read the manifesto, read the guestbook, and read a few more of their articles. I am actualy very suportive of what this orgonization is doing.
The headquarters are in Russia, but if you look, you can probably find the branch that is in your country. In fact, there is a branch in Iraq.
The two great things that I like about this party are that 1.) they have a very unique idea on what communism should be, and 2.) they are active (http://www.nbp-info.org/photo.htm).
Where are you from anyways?
-
What \"a very huge number of people\" in the US think, I don\'t know.
About the unfair distribution of power and wealth, it seems to me that capitalism is not the only system where this happens, far from it. Does true equality exist in any system and, indeed, in the system whose last crumbling bastion lies in China? But I agree that means should be sought to combat this problem which seems to be worsening.
USA is the first country which has made a genocide (and the first which succeded)
You give them too much credit. You\'ll find that the Romans pretty much set the example by annihilating Carthage in 146BC, or look at Nero and the Christians, the Mongol hordes over-running Russia and so on. While post-independence Americans did commit truly horrendous crimes towards Native American Indians, you can\'t rule out the participation of both the British and the French.
About Vivendi-Universal\'s former CEO, Messier, I think you\'re right and you could have added many others to the list. It\'s not normal to get so much money when you leave an ailing company or one who\'s made massive profits but is still laying off hundreds of workers.
Concerning the Galileo project, it\'s a civil satellite navigation system and can be regarded as a European public service of the future, from what I\'ve heard until now. In contrast the US limits data communicated to GPS\'s civil users and reserves the right to shut them out of the system in case of war.
Here in France, dont worry racism exists!
I guess that\'s not what you wanted to say. Actually that\'s something to worry about.
While there\'s good cause to believe that France\'s intervention in Ivory Coast was some form of post-colonialism, let us not forget that the peace-keeping action was mandated by the UN. As I recall, it was president Gbadbo\'s personal militia who clashed repeatedly with the French troops.
Now, before anyone starts flaming me, let me make this clear: sure, I\'m against rampant capitalism but so am I against any form of extremism or painting totally black pictures when it\'s not warranted, even more so when no real solution is proposed. I think France is a perfect example of the latter. France has the reputation of having a very caring government (some US citizens might describe it as mollycoddling - it is not) but most people agree that there have to be reforms because of factors such as aging population, need for greater equality and so on. However, over the past few years, while various governments on the left or right of the political spectrum have put forward reforms that would have taken the country a step further, they\'ve been forced to backtrack and implement a collection of ill-assorted half-measures. Tomorrow, Sunday 29 May 2005, polls suggest France will likely be voting against the European Constitution although it was initially one of its main proponents: that sums it up.
-
Ugh, my response was truthful, and then you find it annoying because it differs with your perspective. Thus, you write this earful.
Originally posted by myself.
Microsoft\'s market dominance is not directly caused by lifestyles of US citizens. It is rather the opposite way around, a self-continuing cycle: Microsoft\'s market dominance is a direct cause of its\' own market dominance. By making things proprietary, killing other people\'s compatability, and other OS\'s being at times difficult to use, MS remains on top of the heap.
I never was defending or attempting to defend monopolistic practices. I just said microsoft is on top because uses (or abuses) its\' unique position to stay on top.
Right, I\'ll just break this down then, possibly creating the next big thread politik.
When you are ironic toward american system (capitalism, individualism, ...), you are considered like an anti-american... it\'s good to know. Are you thinking I will become a terrorist?
1.Individualism and capitalism did not originate in America, although they are prominent in America. I think the word you are looking for is either \"materialism,\" \"commercialism,\" or \"consumerism.\"
2.I am no neo-con. Don\'t even attempt to insult in such a way.
On side a note, I\'m not exactly sure exactly what you mean by \"ironic,\" I am operating on the assumption you either mean \"satirical\" or \"against.\" Forgive me if I am wrong in that assumption.
What will happen if I make fun of Japanese system? or african\'s one? I answer: nothing will happen. But once you speak about american there is a problem...
1.Individualism and capitalism did not originate in America, though something apparently gives you the idea that they are inherently American. They have always been global systems.
Monketh, I despise individualism, I despise savage capitalism and more than everything else I despise irresponsible persons.
Indeed. Laissez-faire capitalism represents a danger to society. Regulated capitalism is the most sucessful economic system over the long term, and increases quality of living. I should like to remove some of the overpaid fools running major corporations as you probably do, they seem to have no idea what they\'re doing. I won\'t try and boycott said corporations, however, because it would be difficult, would hurt the employees, and probably would not accomplish the removal of the foolish leaders.
Microsoft behave exactly like almost every occidentals company behave or want to behave. Shame on this way to think!
I\'ll reiterate for effect: I was not defending Microsoft. I ws merely stating why they are where they are.
But Monketh, just understand I never said US Citizen are bad because of US big company behaviours... US Citizens are the first who suffer this behaviours:
A very huge number of people there are too poor to say
A very huge number of people live scared thinking they could be killed in their own street (thank to movies or news which are really absolutly mad there)
A little number of people concentrate the power in their own hand and keep it at all cost
Racism is amazing there
USA is the first country which has made a genocide (and the first which succeded)
USA are waging a war every 2 or 3 years.
Once someone say, \"American you are wrong!\", a huge boycott, embargo, and racism begin: childish game.
I very much appreciate that you do not blame US citizens for massive corporate dominance.
Have you ever been here, man? I\'ll address these individually in descending order from after the colon.
You can never be too poor to protest, though I\'ll admit it makes voicing concerns through boycotting or civil action extremely risky. I suspect they are more focused on survival.
People who are afraid to go out in their own streets at night generally live in poorer areas of cities. Now, let\'s elaborate off of that: These areas are high in crime for a reason, why? It isn\'t violence in the media, it\'s poor parenting. You don\'t let your children be raised by the television if you want them to turn out well. You don\'t let drugs near your children if you want them to turn out well (drug problems are generally a large factor in these areas). Sometimes the street life will come and put those two things out of your control. The gangs exist primarily because of the drugs, which exist because of the drug addicts. The drug addicts, the men who have umpteen children and do not care for any of them (influenced by a tough-guy image from the street, not the TV), and the wife-beaters set a horrible example for their many children. It continues in a cycle of never-ending violence. The insane school drop-out rates in these poorer communities don\'t help.
That happens in all economic and governmental systems.
What gives you that perspective? I haven\'t seen any mentionable rascism other than the ocassional rascist joke...
I\'ll second Nada, that\'s far from the truth, and it\'s also one heck of a long time ago. You don\'t see me bothering about the bloodiness of the French revolution, do you?
First off, you should look at what the conflicts are about, and whether we were asked. I\'m not talking about Iraq here, but as the primary world military power, the first group asked to send troops to stop an invasion or war typically comes to us.
Uh, no. If you\'re hearing about massive boycotts of nations we don\'t like, it ain\'t happening. Well, except for the neo-cons, but most americans don\'t particularly care where stuff is made. Do you have data to support the view of a massive profit loss by anybody short of Iraq or Cuba after they denounced America? (We buy oil from the people who hate us most...)
I will concede that there is currently rampant nationalism in america, conveniently disguised as its\' cousin, patriotism.
This is what the great majority of french (maybe european) think about america.
Sad, then, that that is what is thought. Have you guys considered a massive media campaign? It would work far better than just complaining or mounting protest.
America sets the tone for the world as the economic and military superpower that it is. If you feel like fixing it instead of yelling at our corrupt business leaders, you are welcome to propose something you think would work that could reasonably happen.
I don\'t want to discuss why communism won\'t work, I\'ve been over it a million times before, and it just doesn\'t on a national scale.
-
*little dance* -> (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v251/neckromaester/MegaDance.gif)
i agree with you monketh.. (for the first and possibly last time in the collective consciousness of man :P )
Except that Laissez-faire is bad.. i think it could balance itself out given the chance.. but other then that..
WOOT for America :D
evil comsumeristic capitolism and industialism has existed long before America was a scant dream.. and will exist long after America and its society has crumbled to dust and gone the way of the egyptians :rolleyes:
EDITL oh yeah i also have stated.. don\'t like us, try to change us :-\\ I welcome european reinforcements on the getting america back on track front.. but not to diss europeans they just sem to talk about how we suck and when asked to help basicaly say \"We wont help you stop sucking because you suck to much\" o.O
(in my personal experience so far.. one of my old family sayings is \"if it dont apply let it fly\" so if you arent like this.. it dont apply.. so just let it fly past you and hit the person who it does apply to)
-
Foresteer agrees with me? Oh my.
Well, if we bring up laissez-faire... We had laissez-faire, it didn\'t balance. Back in the late 1800\'s and early 1900\'s, workers were practically disposable, and comparatively, tycoons had more than they do today before anti-trust laws.
I\'m quite serious about a massive media campaign, you know. It has worked for other things in the past (like reducing smoking). The best approach would be to appeal to that nationalism, something like \"Make America beautiful again.\"
On another side note: America is currently in a state of slow bureaucratic rot, brought on more by laziness and said consumerism (as I said, americans check the price tag, not the origin label/sticker), and possibly the glorification of laziness and consumerism (ie:\"You too can be RICH overnight! Just send us money!\" and actors & sports-stars getting paid millions for work undeserving of it).
-
It would be too hard for me to contradict yourself. If you think there is any kind of honour to answer like you do, especially Monketh, I think it\'s good for you and I wont aswer. I\'ve nothing to get by contradicting you, I will just lost my time by trying to read carefully a text which has nothing to deals with what I said.
So all you said is surely right even if a very majority was absolutly far of what I said. (and believe in me, as Im not native english I must concentrate myself to read and sometimes you are speaking about anything else implicitly trying to contradict what I said... I think Ill think you are not trying to confusing me just to be sure to bore me and win a very useless price...)
Example: You said capitalism isnt born in United States... but, Monketh, do you really think I care about that? And in fact the great majority of what you said wasnt objective especially when you said something which dont deals with what I said (and moreover after quoting me!). So, as I think you are someone intelligent, I will ask you to read what I wrote again and try to rephrase your answer if what you said dealt really with what I meant.
But as you said there is no racism in USA, Im really astonished. Maybe Im wrong but each times someone said something about skin colours in USA... its amazing how its sad! The movies, the news, the history... everything seems to say: in USA, white people and black people arent equal... But if you say the contrary... and as you surely live in USA (is it true?), you will learn me that USA is a superb melting pot with absolutly no racism... a s o.
Please tell me you were joking when you said USA are good cause they buy iraq\'s oil... tell me you were joking... (I never said it was a good joke off course).
\"Ironie\" is a kind of joke. It\'s when you say something which is wrong just to make fun of it. It\'s a way to show you are against it cause what you say is so huge, so incredible that you cannot trust in it.
Example: KKK\'s members are the best friends of black community.
If you say something without sharing the opinion but just want to show how dumb it is you can and if you thing some people could not understand you were laughing you can add: \"je suis ironique l?\"-> \"Im ironic yet!\"
I dont read all your post cause here in France its 3 o clock and read something which astonish me (because its far of what I could expect) at 3 o clock is too boring.
I have seen something about French revolution... All you have to know is that franch revolution was a way to manipulate the people to take the power. It\'s how I felt it and how I keep on feeling it. Im not proud of my country of my history (a history with some holes which allow my mind to think my country is a good one, has done good choices, ...)
Could you say me whats patriotism? I saw this word at the end... its a nice word and as I really think patriotism is nationalism (but nationalism make people think about Nazi so patriotism is better), I think you could show me Im wrong.
But if patriotism is only a way to say you have to protect your country and your government opinion by forgetting to think about the problem, and share your own opinion with the other, please just tell me that and dont keep on replying to this thread cause everything would not be objective...
I hope Im not too rude... It\'s not my wish but your answers are desapointing me... really desappointing me...
----------------------------
But to resume I like the simple way to resume every situation you have.
You, Nada, seems to have a very utopist way to see the political acts. Gallileo is a huger project than GPS... and some GPS satellites belong to military... but off course you think that Europa is very good and just want to create its own public european GPS?... I could think like you and think that europa wont use Gallileo for military purposes but there is a problem: I learnt something else.
You said it was approuved by UN? You said it was good for the ivory coast citizens? Maybe... maybe not... but dont think France has done that freely: there are somethings after war... And France will surely take a great part of the rebuilding of the country. It\'s a market, a business... everything is business! As you are french Ill just give you the example of what the news said about Americans\' war in Iraq: Bush said it was to help them to have a democracy but all they wanted is oil and way to control a new place where to trade... They said that it was a geopolitical purpose too, didnt they? But france is not like that :D ... (it\'s still ironical)
I dont care about China I dont care about others countries. I said occidental\'s capitalism is the biggest illnes of the world! And thank to russianvodka who spoke about communism and gave a weapon to flame me... (even if I know you were friendly Russianvodka... but in USA or in west Europa speaking about communism is a kind of bad thing: You say you like communism and every people think you like Staline...).
Nada, do you like how the things happened here in France with the polls ? Could you tell me how many people will vote \"no\" to the poll? I will but around me everyone will vote \"yes\". Dont speak about sondages cause sondage its like the TV channel which give it: TF1 news said \"Apr?s ce reportage vous allez savoir pourquoi vous allez voter oui\" or something like that... but how could I be astonished by a channel whose chairman said \"we are sell empty part of human brains to customers like CocaCola\" saying its programs has been done for that... Who is the customers for the survey Nada ? And dont forget to tell me if you felt unsafe during the election campain of Mr. Chirac? Cause strangely TV channels spoke about unsafety in France...
Tomorrow the yes will win! It\'s my mind... even if I wont vote yes...
The american genocide was not like the one you said. And I even dunno if it was considereted as a genocide... you cannot speak about genocid as easily : Rome was a country : America (indian\'s one) and Europa (what Nazis have made) are 2 continents!!! There are no comparaison... But I would like to know more about it. Could you explain? (as your answer is not common I think you are studying history and I like History)
If I am an utopist, I dunno how to call you, Foresteer... Today powerful companies are doing their best to control everything, especially the future customers... Once people will react it will be too late. Today even engineer are recruited in poor countries (China, India, ...). It\'s costless. And some europeans engineers are looking for a new job while they are 45 maybe 50...
Moreover earth is suffering and there will be a lot of disaster in 20 maybe 30 years. Everyone know that but companies are still polluting... let them fly foresster! let them fly !
Finally, tell me what could happened if Bin Laden says \"Im not representing a religion but the suffering of the majority of the earth citizens\"... It\'s strange but the twin towers disaster could be seen very differently if he simply said that... cause in that case the victims would not be the americans anymore and omg terrorism could be seen as a way of freedom! The only way some poor people find to be heard. The only way they fund to keep their dignity...
But off course you will say me Bin Laden dont say anything like that... are you sure you can trust in everything you learnt watching at the news? Especially when a record of Bin Laden seems to have been recorded in Dolby surround?
Then you will tell me there were a lot of victims in the towers and the majority of them was good. Surely. and Im againt that violence. But how did you found heroism of our \"resistants\" during the WW2? In France they are showed as heroes... however they were terrorists before all. They were good terrorists because France win the war with the Russia, the GB and the USA... Everything is a question of point of view and even if Im peaceful and want to keep the peace at all cost, I could understand it (especially when a friend who simply love Africa said to me, coming back from a travel in Senegal, shocked, I saw real poverty: all they try to do there is to survive... I cant understand how they still could smile...). Finally I think the day a man will come to my house to kill me saying my &%$?&%$? race killed all his friends and saying he is fighting for liberty, I wont be surprised...
-
i am against the american government, no i am not a terrorist, i am just a kid with an opinion expressing freedom of speech.
anyways i will go into detail.
we use nuclear powered weapons, like uranium filled missles to destroy enemies, that is terrorism. we entered iraw by bombing a hotel...... do i even have to say it? we swear on the bible in inoguration and not the constitution. the land of the free is against gay marrage, anti black, and has run interment camps.
*edit*
although i am not saying we are the first or the worst to have ever done things, i am saying we are doing horrible things.
-
Well ok maybe i misstated.. i basicaly mean a market with the only government regulations being Minimum Wage, Economic and Work Safety incentives, and a few misc. regulations here and such.. but i thnik we can both agree *gasp* that as much hands off government is needed as can possibly exist
And yeah we agree.. oh my :-O
I would reply to fkan but even reading it slow my brain just registered \"All Your Base are belong to us\" \"you have no chance to survive make your time\" and \"for great justice take off every zig\" Errors and then shut down even if i understood it my intuitions says replying to it could be a big mistake as well
Also Nationalism (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Nationalism)
Patriotism (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Patriotism)
also since you stated your not a native speaker you dont know the finer points of the root \"Patriot\" (hell many life long speakers dont) as in Co-patriot or Patron (they are related)
Patriot is just a person who is loyal to a belief or cause and in this example of nations if a nation touting that cause goes astray will complain and resist greatly..
(patron is a funded or otherwise supporter of a cause.. such as patron of the arts or sciences)
nationalist is just going along with WHATEVER ones NATION does.
I\'ll atribute that part of the rant I did understand and addressed to your lack of english experience and not intention ignorance :)
EDIT: also it says you are from france.. and from what i can see and from how it sounds patriot and like words come from the french side of american english o.O maybe you ignorance isnt intentional (IOW: you should know the difference between the words unless i have had a gross failure of mental function which is almost impossible)
EDIT II the edit wars: i really cant see how under this exact subject how this can go anywhere productive. So dont mind if I jump ship and let you chaps plumet to the ocean bottom, ya? :P
-
Hello PSer\'s,
Fken you sure can hit all the hot buttons. Genocide, Communism, Reilgion, and this one!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, tell me what could happened if Bin Laden says \"Im not representing a religion but the suffering of the majority of the earth citizens\"... It\'s strange but the twin towers disaster could be seen very differently if he simply said that... cause in that case the victims would not be the americans anymore and omg terrorism could be seen as a way of freedom! The only way some poor people find to be heard. The only way they fund to keep their dignity...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Whoa! Sweet Cow pies!
First off Bin Laden did say he was representing the suffering of people that have no voice. Yes, he attached the Muslim religion to it to give himself more credibility, but he did it to make the action seem more just. I could do the same thing right now. Write up a manifisto, and go blow something up with a lot of people in it. The difference between me and Bin Laden is money, connections, power, and backing, and ethics (probably more than that). What Bin Laden was missing that made all the difference in the world was a country! If he was such a hero, how come no country would claim him as there own. He is a rebel and as such if he commits an act of violence he is a terroist. It is that simple. If you think that the key to freedom is having people with power, money, connections, but no national origin, killing people randomly, then you need to do some serious time at a Library.
-
I personally don\'t consider myself a utopist but I do try to look at things in a positive light.
I don\'t deny that the Galileo project will certainly have military applications but, first and foremost, it is a civil project, unlike GPS.
Concerning Ivory Coast, I said that the French troops were not helping the government there (which you said they were). Maybe there were ulterior motives to the peace-keeping intervention but I don\'t think it was really about signing contracts to rebuild the country: 1) anti-French sentiment is pretty strong there 2) the French entered the conflict very early on before all-out war broke out, there was not that much to rebuild to make it worth it. The reason behind the intervention, IMO, are 1) as the former colonial power, France (with reason or not) felt it had to do something both to help Ivory Coast and avoid the conflict spreading to neighbouring countries 2) trying not to repeat the Rwanda mistake 3) to protect French citizens who lived in the country and had not left yet.
Polls: I agree that they cannot and should not be trusted completely. Most of the media have been relatively pro-\"yes\". They commission the polls but the polls show the \"no\" to be winning. Now, you might say I\'m a utopist or something but I am not buying into another conspiration theory where they\'d advertise pro-\"no\" polls to make people vote \"yes\".
About people feeling insecure in France and this having been relayed heavily by the media during the last presidential election, that\'s true. But I\'m not prepared to believe there was any governmental interventionist action behind this. First it very much played in favour of the Far-Right. Second, I think that media people have been intelligent enough to notice that preying on people\'s fears worked remarkably well in holding their attention and, to take up a point you mentionned, sell brain space to fizzy-drinks companies.
I\'m not a history student, I only did a quick search on Google and Wikipedia to confirm my doubts. Romans razing Carthage appears to be the first documented occurence of genocide.
Wikipedia:
Genocide has been defined as the deliberate killing of people based on their ethnicity, nationality, race, religion, or (sometimes) politics, as well as other deliberate actions leading to the physical elimination of any of the above categories.
Admittedly similar cruelty has always existed in the form of democide (mass-killing) and gendercide (generally killing males and taking females into slavery).
Outsourcing jobs (\"delocalisation\" in French), and more and more white collar jobs, is truly a problem. However, I\'m against protectionist measures, I\'d rather see Western nations helping developing countries out of their misery so wages become comparable.
Environment is an important issue, true. Though I think your prediction of disater in 20-30years is downright pessimistic. World leaders, and President Bush the first among them, should realise that promoting environment-friendly research and industries won\'t hurt their economies. On the contrary, it can only help growth and create new jobs.
Fken, you say that French \"resistants\" were terrorists. I do not agree. They were fighting an open war, albeit through guerilla-like actions, and their retaliatory actions were against the Nazi military not civilians. Now, the Allies did bomb German cities, killing thousands of innocents, but that was not terrorism that was plain, bloody war.
[edit]
I understand the \"Franco-French\" bickering between fken and I may be boring to some of you, so here\'s a little joke I heard recently:
How does a Frenchman commit suicide?
He shoots himself 15cm above the head, right in his superioty complex.
[/edit]
-
Thanks for the link. I do know its two french word and your dictionary is nice: \"love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it [syn: patriotism]\"
So I must reply quickly.
Do you think there is no market in ivory coast? maybe the term rebuild is bad... to build is better... Never forget that european came in Africa saying it was to help them... I know the official reason and really I know how the things happen in every part of the world: You wanna help protect civilian and keep the peace then you have to convince some people especially Chirac, Rafarin (I like listening to him when he speaks english...) and government... Dont tell me Chirac wanted to make a good action... if he was born in Ivory Coast I would understand... but he isnt... and all he know about Ivory Coast surely comes from books and official business travels.
As I said around me everyone said \"I ll vote yes\"... And I can assure you that the answer only depend on where you are asking that...
What\'s happen when you see that the no will win and when the president say \"There is no other choice but voting yes or we will be lost\"? I ll tell you: the one who didnt want to vote will wake up to vote yes the others wont cause the \"no is already winning\"... It\'s the only goal. I dont think its conspiration but manipulation...
When resistants drop bombs and destructed train station, rails, building, aso ... are you telling it was clean? all the killed people were bad boys? I wont say Im against their acts but it was terrorism...
Bin Laden isnt a hero but if really he said he was trying to represent people who are suffering I think I could understand what he did. He chose to be the ennemy of USA... I think its a courageous man... cause what the majority of the people in the world would have done if they were as rich as him would be to f**k the poor people by closing their eyes and live a nice life... And he chose to have to hide himself... just to try to change the face of the world... I wont say its the devil...
Whats amazing is that the plain crashed into the twin tower... not a nuclear powerplant... not the statue of liberty... he just crush the pentagon (military headquarter) and the twin towers (economical headquarter)... the 2 places which represent our &$$$?%&% occidental world ! off course he could try to do it during the night... but I think he cannot choose everything alone... and nobody would commit any suicide if there were no american death...
Black_rose: you say they are using uranium filled bombs? I thought they used only the dustbin of their nuclear powerplant. But maybe was it only at the beginning and maybe does they use uranium filled now.
Nada, the disasters already began... but chut its a secret ;-) (ironical way to say we said there are already some disasters which appears today and that nobody really noticed it cause the TV set dont tell us it was because of environment pollution).
In the middle of 1990 I learnt the disasters would began \"in 20 years\"... So if Im really pessimistic I would say we have only 10 years...
EDIT : hey... you arent french... you are belgian for sure if you know that kind of joke! :P
-
Yup the French revolution or our own Revolution are examples of Patriotism (acting out to better a country you love)
Hitlers Germany is an extreme example of nationalism (just going along with your country because you dont want to be labled \"anti-country\" almost what we have now.. some pople are so \"patriotic\" that they border on nationalistic)
I have no clue what ya\'lls ivory coast thing is about so I\'ll just watch. Bin laden didnt hit anything \"critical\" and he told us why.. he just hit the things that symbolized Americas greed and thinking it can run everything.. If we where at war we would have and have hit monuments that are special to the enemy Except when we do it its call \"Psychological Warfare\" and its ok when they do it its \"Terrorism\" and its wrong
Also vagrently off topic at fken: are the EU constitution elections today or where they yesterday? If yesterday then how did they go?
-
You respond with this???
Originally posted by fken
Bin Laden isnt a hero but if really he said he was trying to represent people who are suffering I think I could understand what he did. He chose to be the ennemy of USA... I think its a courageous man... cause what the majority of the people in the world would have done if they were as rich as him would be to f**k the poor people by closing their eyes and live a nice life... And he chose to have to hide himself... just to try to change the face of the world... I wont say its the devil...
Whats amazing is that the plain crashed into the twin tower... not a nuclear powerplant... not the statue of liberty... he just crush the pentagon (military headquarter) and the twin towers (economical headquarter)... the 2 places which represent our &$$$?%&% occidental world ! off course he could try to do it during the night... but I think he cannot choose everything alone... and nobody would commit any suicide if there were no american death...
If you want to convince me of something then, Post a link or quote a book or something. That is just nonsensical rambling. Bin Ladin is not corageous. Ghandi was courageous, Martin Luther King was courageous, William Wallace was courageous.
If you want to know what Bin Ladin said, just look it up, don\'t make it up. Nowere does he say Occindental. That is your word not his. Bin Ladin says kill all Americans everywhere. If you doubt it, look here
http://www.ict.org.il/articles/fatwah.htm
Since I am an American, I take offense to this, and don\'t think being French gets you off the hook either.
-
Well now bin Laden is couragous.. it takes balls to even think of pissing off America (especialy all those rednecks that where up in arms.. i thought we where gonna have a D-Day in afganistan with bass boats as landing craft and hunting rifles and shot guns :P )
Also think outside the box.. maybe he didnt quote directly and accidentaly changed or mistated a word as his source may be french and hes trying to translate it? i may be wrong but always err on the side of diplomacy
As for kill all americans he may actualy mean that and he may not.. bush says a lot of things * i at least really hope* he doesnt mean to keep the support of his backers and the kill america movement came from saudi arabi.. where most of bin ladens \"troops\" come from
Im not defending just trying to get you to look at it from another angle (heh i was pissed when they attacked.. they could have at least sent a delegation first, method wrong but motive might not be; thats the point im trying to get you to see)
-
well, i go to sites like this for information guys,
http://www.bushflash.com
go their, watch some videos, most brought tears to my eyes and combined with an already steady hatred because he is anti abortion and anti gay (i am a homosexual) i want him to die.
not to mention him using terrorist tactics in the war on terror.
-
Dont tell me Chirac wanted to make a good action...
It is my belief, many people share that view, that President Chirac, and many French politicians, want France to regain some of its initial grandeur on the international scene and there\'s a lot of effort put into foreign diplomacy, mediation, etc. It is about doing what they consider to be good actions for the sake of France\'s reputation and might. In that respect, Mr Chirac does not differ from Mr Bush, he only waits for UN approval beforehand. Also, I would like to reiterate the point about what appears to be the pervasive animosity towards French people in Ivory Coast, I don\'t think it would be conducive to flourishing business deals. There are many other African governments which are way more friendly towards France.
I\'ve not said that guerilla warfare during WW2 was clean and that no innocents were killed. I\'m saying that it was guerilla warfare (terrorists use guerilla warfare but not all guerilla warfare is terrorism) during an openly-declared war.
I think a good definition for terrorism is \"the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion\" (Merriam-Webster\'s). Wikipedia has a lengthier one with several definitions which would please both of us but the neutrality of the article is being disputed so I\'m not using it.
Nada, the disasters already began...
And would you enlighten me as to what these are?
One thing which should be made clear is that as the oil industry has its lobbyists so do hard-core environmentalists and they do come on TV. I\'m very concerned about the environment and truly believe that a lot of damage has already been done but I don\'t buy claims of cataclysms in a couple of decades.
@Black_rose: this is very sad indeed but I think that what\'s even more saddening is the fact that a (greater) majority of people re-elected President Bush.
Side note 1: I\'m French, thank you very much. However, I must admit that I\'ve spent the greater part of my life outside France. The person I heard the joke from was French.
Side note 2:
Rafarin [French Prime Minister] (I like listening to him when he speaks english...)
One time I heard the French Defense Minister, Michele Alliot-Marie, speaking in English at a US University: that was a very brave thing to do.
[edit]
Fken, have you always been pro-\"bin Laden\"? Or have Mr Bush and his war on Iraq changed your mind? As I recall, the vast majority of French people were horrified by the 9/11 attacks and thought it was right to go hunt him in Afghanistan.
[/edit]
-
Hey Black_Rose thats like what its like in my mind only in a web page :D Bush Always uses such Fuzzy Math (http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/fuzzymath.php) :rolleyes: :P
Also i too wish to see France regain its political say and have a vested interest it it regain a worldwide say. Then perhaps the critques from France of our absolutly craptastic government would carry more weight in america and worldwide leading to change
pehaps i am going about this the wrong way? Ive been asking europeans to help with america but maybe I need to help the europeans first so they have the say and tools to actualy help (which they seem to want to do.. and even one person who is motivated can move politcal barriers.. bush is one man look at what hes done.. i too am one man.. why cant i do the same just in reverse?)
So are there any sites on political movements in france that would lead to the end of france having greater say? (winks and nods at french members.. if nothing else i can help by raising awareness.. i point at the greenpeace cyberactivism campain.. one person behind a keyboard with a lot of time *like me* can get a lot of word out really fast :D )
Also if its not to much whats the ivory coast thing about? link/explanation please?
-
pro bin laden ?
wow... if I were pro bin laden I would be ok with all of what he did and Im against any violence so pro bin laden... it\'s a little (irony :D) exagereted... (oh and did I forget to tell I like and want peace? do you think \"wanting peace\" and being \"pro bin laden\" are compatible ?)
But in fact I dont believe in devil (Im sorry). And I think nobody arrive in this world with the wish to kill everybody and create disasters... I think there are explanation for everything and I think Bin Laden behaviours dont appear thank to a spellcraft. He is a human being and surely think he is right like you think you are right by saying terrorism is bad.
No off course Im against terrorism but I think I could understand some people who are ready to fight for their freedom... dont you? For me in this conflict, the first terrorism attacks was occidental ones: it was colonies, it was how people manipulated poor people, it was how american industry sold GMO to Africa to be sure the plants wont grow up the next years and be sure they could exploited them once again... (oh dont worry european would do the same things if only they had the patent of these %&$&&% GMO... but they havent so they can criticize...). I think I could understand people start to lost their nerves when they see their cildren trying to find insects on the sand to survive while big occidental industries are burning their dinner product because they cannot find any customers... I think a lot of people think we are going to far: We are $&%?%$ childish butcher. And once they said we dont want to keep on living like that occidentals answers \"we dont care about your mind\" once someone try to make a revolution some place becomes human slaughterhouses.
You spoke about Ghandi? nice example cause today Im wondering how the things would happen if children in China would sit down in the street and say : \"we wont keep on working!\"... First Occidental would call the chinese companies and say... We have a problem its a big economical disaster we are losting customers so do everything you want to do but next week everything should be finished. And dont worry everything would be finished the next week.
I really think today if there were another Ghandi he would be killed... by accident...
Do you really think about poor people life? Would you invite someone who has no house to sleep in your flat because you are scared of how cold it is outside during the winter? Would you go to Africa or latin america to help Mother Theresa? So please dont tell me you are not participating to the exploitation! just by closing your eyes. OMG in Palestine people become frequently human bombs !!! What the meaning of this act??? -> they think their life dont cost as much as their freedom... It the same thing which happened during 9/11 : a lot of terrorists thought they could die and it was a great thing in their mind. No dont tell me we aren responsible! Now the disaster has begun cause USA and EU wont say they are responsible: it could be interpreted as weakness... and the atmosphere will be more and more violent.
Off course Im not ok with what Bin Laden did but off course I respect him. Because he chose to have a sad life, I dont think he would apear in St Tropez and play tennis and swim in swimming pool. I dont think he is happy today. I think he think frequently he has done the bad choice and that it would be really nice to have another life...
Everybody show me Bin Laden as a muslim who wants to kill non belivers... not as a man who chose terrorism to express his desire of freedom...
I think he dont use the good way: I think there are too many innocent who are killed and I think it\'s too hard for us to change anything in our countries... but after all: are we really living in a democracy? If it\'s a true democracy we must say we are against suffering in the world and try to answer to the terrorism by using fair trade. Dont think they will win (its a bad way to think indeed) but think that its the better way to behave if you wanna kill the terrorism. No poor suffering people -> no terrorism.
Some islands are disappearing of the world map Nada... the desert is always bigger and the Clima seems to evolute quickly. A lot of scientist are saying : \"even if we stop everything the earth is already damaged and it would already be too late to save it\"... Off course Im not sharing this opinion because I think its not logical (i think that one or 2 centuries should be needed but it\'s reversible... why wouldnt it be reversible?). The date of december 26th is in French memory. We have water issues and dont forget people need to drop water on the nuclear powerplants to prevent a nuclear disaster last year or the year before (I dont remember)... off course there was another weather problems before but the nuclear powerplants are dangerous and now we know that!
Foresteer: The elections is today... I think the yes will win... Ill tell you if you want...
-
that would be nice :) even in france votes yes it looks like holland is voting no so
and wow i think i have found a person more synical the I 8o as for the enviroment if we stop now we\'ll be a lot less screwed then if we stop years from now.
and to answer your pessimism *not and insult it may sound like it.. pessimism itsnt and attitude or character just a phase of though* Well used to have One King who had all the money and gave it to people as he saw fit.. Now there are a couple hundred CEO \"kings\" at least in 400 years we\'ve managed to spread the wealth a little :P
http://www.lp.org
http://www.greenpeace.com
http://www.eco-action.org/
there are people trying and giving thier lives *maybe not in death.. but using thier whole life for a cause not even thinking of anything else. I think we owe them to not fall in an apathetic state like everybody else and just quit leaving them all alone to carry OUR loads and the rest of the Earths thats to much to ask of already selfless people*
So stay the course!
As for \"We are all screwed anyway\" if i may expound a little if we stop now we can still remain a viable genetic strain and even in our lifetimes *allbeit the ABSOLUTE end of them if we live to be 100* we could still repair what has been done, or we will drown ourselves by driving our humvees to make up for us being so unoriginal and bland that thats what we need to no feel like the losers we are..
Anyway :rolleyes:
EDIT: oh my french lesson thingies arrived today :D :D :D and i havent felt so stupid since i was five XD at least i five i could say words right :P (learn this stuff young kids)
But i can utter once sentence after one day and know what im saying :) Its a start, Rome wasnt built in a day you know 8)
-
@fken:
they think their life dont cost as much as their freedom...
That might be the case but there\'s also a lot of indoctrination too, very reminiscent of the Hashshashin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashshashin) (have a look, it\'s a very interesting read). It\'s especially difficult not to draw the parallel when some of them wear three pairs of underwear when they blown themselves up, ready for paradise where virgin maidens await to cater to their will.
Everybody show me Bin Laden as a muslim who wants to kill non belivers...
Well that\'s what he says he is and wants to do...
Some islands are disappearing of the world map Nada... the desert is always bigger and the Clima seems to evolute quickly.
You don\'t need to take the following question seriously but I\'d wish to know nonetheless. Which islands?
Desertification, especially if you\'re referring to the Sahara, has been an on-going natural process for quite some time and has been taking place as far as memory of men can remember. Desertification can often be traced to poor farming practices and over-grazing, in the US for instance.
The date of december 26th is in French memory.
To those of you reading this who were not in France at the time :) : that was the day the \"storm of the century\" swept across France and caused severe disruptions, more notably widespread power cuts and thousands of fallen trees. [edit]happened in 1999[/edit]
nuclear powerplants are dangerous and now we know that!
Indeed, fissile nuclear plants are dangerous. This is why the European Union and other countries wish to investigate the feasibility of using nuclear fusion (http://www.iter.org) to produce energy.
@Foresteer:
Want France to have a greater say, eh?
For my part I find that France cannot do it on its own, the only way is a stronger European Union.
I don\'t know any French-idea-of-what-the-world-shoud-be lobby groups. There\'s always the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/index.gb.html) but I don\'t think that\'s what you\'re looking for.
Also if its not to much whats the ivory coast thing about? link/explanation please?
From what I understand, fken finds that France is going down the drain, i.e becoming like the US, and I assume he mentionned Ivory Coast to draw a parallel with America\'s interventionist policies in Iraq: the ulterior motive being making money over the local people\'s back by signing contracts to rebuild after the armed-conflicts have ended.
What France\'s behaviour towards its former colonies should be has been a very touchy topic especially last year (these past few months it\'s more about the European Constitution referendum). France has generally maintained strong and friendly diplomatic ties with these countries (although some have undemocratically-elected leaders) and has a few military bases here and there. Tensions, which had been brewing for quite some time, between the Ivory Coast government and rebels (often unpaid soldiers) escalated and France moved in (do note that ~20000 French nationals lived in Ivory Coast). French troops apparently shot at the crowd at a given time and killed some of them.
This Google link ought to give you the picture, I find the first page of search results to give an account of things from various points of view.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=france+ivory+coast
With all this talk about France we\'re getting a wee bit out of topic, no? Must be my fault, though.
know what im saying
That\'s the spirit! Keep it up! :D
-
foresteer... I cant really understand what you meant ... I dont get it... could you rephrase it with more simpe expressions?
-
Sure thing.. pardon me i speak in complex english much of the time :(
I think i have found a person more Cynical (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=cynical) then i am
To answer you and maybe make you feel better *We all used to have one ruler who had all the power and ruled however he wanted. Now there are a couple hundred Corporate kings who do as they please at least in 400 years we\'ve managed to spread the wealth a little :P
http://www.lp.org
http://www.greenpeace.com
http://www.eco-action.org/
there are people giving thier lives *maybe not in death.. but using thier whole life for to help others and not even thinking of anything else. I think we owe them to not fall in a state of Apathy (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=apathetic) like everybody else and just quit, leaving them all alone to carry OUR burden to help and the rest of the Earths thats to much to ask of already selfless people*
AS for what you said about how things are getting worse if i may comment a little if we stop using oil and concentrate on better things to help the planet now we can still be able to live and survive and also be in tune with nature and maybe fix the eviroment even in our lifetimes *allthough it would end of our livesif we make it 100 years old*.
Anyway
EDIT: oh my french lessons i ordered came today and i havent felt so stupid since i was five XD at least when i was five i could say words right (learn this stuff young kids.. i have much trouble pronouncing french correctly)
But I can speak one sentence after one day and know what im saying. Its a start, Rome wasnt built in a day you know
How was that :) ? I made it easier hope it helps!
EDIT: bummer about there not being any such groups :( france worked fine without the EU in the past and should be able to without it now.. i think the EU consolidatiting power could be a very bad thing. It was ok when they just worked together economicaly but if they just become one garbled stew of nations then each nation blends into itself and that is sad ;(
-
Originally posted by Nada
That might be the case but there\'s also a lot of indoctrination too, very reminiscent of the Hashshashin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashshashin) (have a look, it\'s a very interesting read). It\'s especially difficult not to draw the parallel when some of them wear three pairs of underwear when they blown themselves up, ready for paradise where virgin maidens await to cater to their will.
so... are you thinking like me? I didnt get if you though like me cause when I read this I think you try to contradict me (\"That might be the case but\"). And sorry but if they turn into human bombs its because they think their life cost less than their idea... of course there are indoctrination! Even for french or red revolution even for scessession\'s war even for WW1 and WW2 even for Vietnam even for iraq war... there is always indoctrination. But it\'s still more important when it\'s in a place where poverty lives.
Originally posted by Nada
Everybody show me Bin Laden as a muslim who wants to kill non belivers...
Well that\'s what he says he is and wants to do...
Ow! do you listen to what he said ? do you understand arabian or has he spoken in french? in english? are you sure the records was an original? Who translated it? Are you sure you can trust in him? be sure that the one who made the translation arent his friends: they are his ennemies... logically you cant believe in them... but I understand there is a problem cause it means we cannot judge Bin Laden as long as we cant speak arabian... So I will maybe never judge him.
Originally posted by Nada
Some islands are disappearing of the world map Nada... the desert is always bigger and the Clima seems to evolute quickly.
You don\'t need to take the following question seriously but I\'d wish to know nonetheless. Which islands?
I dont really remember but its in Oceania because I remember the unhabitant of the island I saw during the news were trying to become Australian citizens (and off course Australia was refusing...)
Originally posted by Nada
Desertification, especially if you\'re referring to the Sahara, has been an on-going natural process for quite some time and has been taking place as far as memory of men can remember. Desertification can often be traced to poor farming practices and over-grazing, in the US for instance.
you speak about a natural process??? OMG that was what people said at the beginning of the 1980. In 1990 they said they dont really know if it was really a natural process...
In 2000 there is no more question: even Hubert Reeves said that (I was invited to one of its meeting). We know today that humanity is amazingly increasing the process... Are you really loving environment? cause its not hard to learn that today...
nuclear powerplants are dangerous and now we know that!
Indeed, fissile nuclear plants are dangerous. This is why the European Union and other countries wish to investigate the feasibility of using nuclear fusion (http://www.iter.org) to produce energy.
if you want to create a fusion reaction you have to create a fission reaction first (-> it\'s still dangerous... it\'s less dangerous but it\'s still dangerous...)
-------------------------------------------------------
last news :
CSA said 20% of non votant (source France Television)
SOFRES said 27% of non votant (source: TF1)
it\'s not official! it\'s polls
but off course it\'s exactly what i said : the news has done their best to scared people and tried to manipulate french to be sure the one who think yes but arent sure will vote. For me its manipulation and its dangerous...
-
http://www.lp.org
http://www.greenpeace.com
http://www.eco-action.org/
there are people giving thier lives *maybe not in death.. but using thier whole life for to help others and not even thinking of anything else. I think we owe them to not fall in a state of Apathy (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=apathetic) like everybody else and just quit, leaving them all alone to carry OUR burden to help and the rest of the Earths thats to much to ask of already selfless people*
There is no greenpeace groups in my town but it\'s not a problem in fact cause I will help them once Ill finish my studies. I would like to have a humanitarian job
EDIT: bummer about there not being any such groups :( france worked fine without the EU in the past and should be able to without it now.. i think the EU consolidatiting power could be a very bad thing. It was ok when they just worked together economicaly but if they just become one garbled stew of nations then each nation blends into itself and that is sad ;(
I always felt like european citizen before... but now Im disapointed... Im against what they did with the patents but not only
55% of no (Dell/IPSOS)
45% of yes
29% of non votant
France refuses the constitution
-
A sad day for Europe it is.
I haven\'t got the heart to tackle the pending issues in our debate tonight.
-
As you surely already know I vote \"no\" and I dont think it was bad... only one person, a woman of 27 years old, said me good arguments to vote yes. Every others seems to vote yes because there \"would be no alternative\" because it would be \"going back\" because it would be a \"farewell to europa\".
Really its no arguments
-
Well i feel like a world citizen but the moment several cultures come under one ruling body the cultures meld and lose themselves.
also woot for france and the soverienty of nations :D (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v251/neckromaester/MegaDance.gif)
Also Nada why is it sad?
-
57% of the Spanish were non votant
and even if its 72% who said yes it was 72% of 43%
so almost 31% said yes and if you think about it it means that less than 1/3 of the spain citizens was ok with it...
Germany government didnt ask to its people because its leader is very criticized and I think the Germans would vote like French (especially because they already know what opening a frontier means - east germany, crisis and unemployment).
In fact, I dont think people like the liberalism (is it the good word?) and savage capitalism...
final results :
55,1% of no
44,9% of yes
-
http://www.Dictionary.com said this about Liberalism (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=liberalism)
I think it may be the right word? (also a small english lesson to help you learn :) ... you would say \"Is this the right word?\" good is used like so: \"I am feeling good\" as in happy or pleasureable or \"This is a good day\"; Good generaly means pleasant or enjoyable; Right generaly means correct or \"not wrong\" ;) )
Though Liberalism generaly means \"anti-capitalism\" for as much personal freedom as possible (sometimes hurting a nations economy). It can also mean scrict following of Free Market capitalism so its a coin toss on that one
But i could be wrong. Just give me the simple meaning and I can give you the word you are after :D
-
I agree with that:
2: an economic theory advocating free competition and a self-regulating market and the gold standard
for me liberalism is allowing the companies to do everything they want: free market, ... . For me the liberalism is the fact that the government wont forbidden anything to the industries and to the companies.
For me \"liberalism with capitalism with individualism\" is what I called savage capitalism.
Off course it works together and it gives the actual WTO.
-
Originally posted by fken
so... are you thinking like me? I didnt get if you though like me cause when I read this I think you try to contradict me (\"That might be the case but\". And sorry but if they turn into human bombs its because they think their life cost less than their idea... of course there are indoctrination!
Well you might be a wee bit indoctrinated :D
I meant to say that it is possible, and it\'s certainly the case for some atleast, that the thought \"my life\'s not worth it so I might just blow myself up for the good cause\" might not be the result of their own reasoning but rather instilled in them through brainwashing.
Originally posted by fken
be sure that the one who made the translation arent his friends: they are his ennemies... logically you cant believe in them... but I understand there is a problem cause it means we cannot judge Bin Laden as long as we cant speak arabian...
Another conspiration theory. To my knowledge, the Arabic media reported the same things as the Western media with regard to the content of his speeches.
Originally posted by fken
you speak about a natural process???
...
We know today that humanity is amazingly increasing the process...
Here are the causes of desertification (http://www.unccd.int/publicinfo/factsheets/showFS.php?number=2) (UN Convention to Combat Desertification)
I agree that I should not have used the world \"natural\" but I was under the impression that you were blaming global warming and I wrote \"natural\" when trying to say \"not caused by human activities creating global warming\". I do not dispute the fact the humans play a part in desertification. From the little research I\'ve done on the web, the Sahara desert formed around 4500BC, some time after cattle were introduced by humans. Should we see a causal link between those two events, I don\'t know.
Originally posted by fken
if you want to create a fusion reaction you have to create a fission reaction first (-> it\'s still dangerous... it\'s less dangerous but it\'s still dangerous...)
I\'m not a physicist. I did not know that, can you explain or post a link please? I\'ve heard no chain reaction was involved. Do you find renewable sources of energy completely satisfying, in terms of danger to the environment that is (not energy production capacity)?
Originally posted by Foresteer
france worked fine without the EU in the past ... they just become one garbled stew of nations then each nation blends into itself
Well, in the past France had its colonies, its naval power, (perhaps one could include its thinkers and philosophers), and its language was \"the\" lingua franca. The UK has pretty much lost the same things except that its language is now the lingua franca.
Concerning the garbled stew, the constitution 54.87% of French voters rejected stated in article I-3 (The Union\'s objectives): The European Union \"shall respect its rich cultural and linguistic diversity, and shall ensure that Europe\'s cultural heritage is safeguarded and enhanced.\"
-
Originally posted by fken
This is what the great majority of french (maybe european) think about america.
As an european I would like to give more truth to this statement by altering one world.
This is what the ignorant majority of french (maybe european) think about america.
As the number one in the world America is target to a lot of criticism from other countries, especially Europe who is looking to compete with the US\' place in the world. While america isn\'t perfect and there are definitely some things done better in Europe, only a completely ignorant person would call a once backwater continent that managed to become the number one economic and military superpower in the world in only a few hundred years crappy. America\'s succes speaks for itself in my eyes.
Also do not judge a country and it\'s inhabitants by the actions of it\'s leader. Leaders come and go.
-
so what is going on? its over my head
is this pact against freedom of speech or something?
America sucks, but im not gonna bomb it or mail Anthrax to bush, no point, people do things their way, and you can sto p them, get on with life
thats what i honestly think.
anyway, continue your ramblings ^^
-
Yeah Demarthl yeah lol
---
you spoke about indoctrination... why not... look around you! Around me I grow up with a bad picture of USA and with an incridibly beautiful one.
The bad is what adults said about USA: the pollution, the justice (\"I fund an insect in my hamburger!\"),Bush, Ronald reagan, Swarzenegger, Columbine, weapons, Gangs, violence, they are scared by s e x and cant live without watching violence at tv, racism, ... really I think there is a real bad ad for the USA in these arguments...
The good one is more implicit but it\'s the patriotism of the USA, the one that you see in their movies. There is always a good american who save the world. Oh off course not in all the american movies (Michael Moore? :rolleyes: lol) ... no Im sure you are not understanding me... so I must give example: Independance day (where a US citizen find the solution to save the world), Will Hunting (the genius is born in united state). No you want a better example? -> do you know what the CIA, the SWAT, the FBI, the pentagon and the white house are? And do you know how are called the spies service of the Congo? of the chilian? of india? What the name of their government? and so one...
->what I called beautiful picture of USA is everything which make you think they are more powerful than the rest of the universe...
I dont understand arabic and as the subject is really important I WILL NEVER CONCLUDE ANYTHING AS LONG AS I DONT LISTEN TO EVERYBODY. When someone tell you that someone is a thief do you send him to the jail without knowing what he did? The accusations are too important to believe in the first thing you listen. I just listen to what journalists sumed up from the translation of an anonymous...
This is not a conspiration theory but simply a security : Dont forget the population can be wrong sometimes (WW1 and Jean Jaures murder for example). Thinking you have ennemy without thinking why is what I called ignorance.
What\'s \"lingua franca\"?
Zan you spoke about compete? Do you think it\'s sport? Do you think we are all trying to become the best and that individualism is good?
For me the USA arent an example just because they werent fair play.
Europa can do the same thing too:
They can sell weapons to united state and to their ennemies during 3 or 4 years and then, once Soldiers are tired waging a war and protect american. After they could give money by forcing people to buy european products and after 60 or 80 years Europa can say to USA, \"eh! we saved your ass during the war now you have to follow our decisions with the war in Iraq\".
Off course it\'s not what intelligent americans said. Off course it\'s not what the government said (maybe Bush but Bush is an original). Off course it wasn\'t the government which sold the weapon to the Germany (... I dont think it\'s the government... if it was the government warn me please)... but I will never have respect for their acts! If they are rich it\'s only because they fund benefits where Europa was wrong (the two WW !) and where victims was suffering.
You spoke about ignorance? One of my friends went to united states to study. I asked : \"how did you find it\". She answered she needed 3 monthes to adapt herself to their mad way of life, to the environmental issues because she wanted to shout when she saw their mad behaviours... I think it\'s an educational problem cause even in France I everytime see dumb people who dont care about nature and drop batteries outside their car windows for example... but she said me americans were worse... someone to agree?
To be honest I must quote an american friend who is here in france and said me french bank are &$%$%$... He said that the issues he had dont exist in USA (the banks are abusing here, I recognize...).
I will pm you, Nada, and explain it in french to you (nuclear fusion subject).
-
Im gonna go gentlel on the *supposed * american bashing because i cant really make heads or tails of it :P i can only address what i understood so i may sound scattered.
\"We saved your ass\" thing.. yeah some rednecks still tout that but then again you saw hitler and didnt even start work on a military, you where kinda asking for it. I must commend the actions of the french resistence though, they did they best possible with what there was. Also it was kinda paying back the Statue of Liberty and the funding of OUR revolution (which we would have lost without french intervention despite what some historians whos eyes are full of \"stars and stripes\" say) You saved us, We helped you *barbary coast and other events* and pay you back for the revolution, You give us a sweet statue thats been the pride of our nation ever since, We kicked the nazis out of your country :D sounds pretty fair to me.
As for columbine and whatnot.. You can\'t drudge up every skeleton in our closet and say thats the way we are (need i only mention a dictator like... I dunno Napoleon? the very man who invented buerocracy? Enough Said ;) )
Dont wanna go on nation bashing and i have missunderstood that just explaining we all have problems that we must address (also we are bigger then you guys by far.. so the idiot ratio goes way up the more people there are XD )
Also if i may ask when did your friend come here? (depending on the year they very well may be \"mad ways\" we have fixed just about every one that existed 5 to 10+ years ago thanks to people such as greepeace and the libertarian party). I have friends who have gone to france and say that french are full of themselves and condescending and that the nation is corrupt and doesnt get much done... Do i beileve them? No! Even if i trust them their views are skewed by living in america so long. I will only form an opinion once i visit myself and i encourage you to do the same :)
As for Arney (shawtzi-whatnot) and i found a bug in my soup.. that comes from either the right wing or from idiots (ofter the two are one in the same.. its been a mad 5 years my friend :( )
also i watch TV so what? Scared of sex now you are just talking about things you dont know (yeah there are those people who thing just because they had sex and got pregnant *the very definition of stuppid in my book* na dhad a smaller whiney EVERN MORE ANNOYING monster spoiled form of themselves that they can run TV and Radio as they see fit.. but they are the magority.. and the masses in all countries are stupid)
Also as i recall rascim is RAMPANT in europe (just one example belgiums and germans i could look it up more but whats the point?) .. we have just about eradicated it here and it barely comes up any more over here so :rolleyes:
Im even not gonna address all the points you made as i dont have to. For every one of those i could find a french counterpart i promise you.. the problems you mention are human (as in all of us), not American
Also nuclear fussion? Sweet :D Cold fussion is better though (and it exists, energy companies just pay to have it taught otherwise)
EDIT: also have you heard of San Fransisco? Portland, Oregon? they are on and above european par on ecological issues and the idiot ratio is almost non-existent from what I\'ve seen AND heard.. truely grand cities they are :D (not suprisingly they are on \"the left coast\".. maybe why they are so great :P )
-
Originally posted by fken
Around me I grow up with a bad picture of USA and with an incridibly beautiful one. The bad is what adults said about USA: the pollution, the justice (\"I fund an insect in my hamburger!\",Bush, Ronald reagan, Swarzenegger, Columbine, weapons, Gangs, violence, they are scared by s e x and cant live without watching violence at tv, racism, ... really I think there is a real bad ad for the USA in these arguments...
The good one is more implicit but it\'s the patriotism of the USA, the one that you see in their movies. There is always a good american who save the world.
...
I WILL NEVER CONCLUDE ANYTHING AS LONG AS I DONT LISTEN TO EVERYBODY
...
The accusations are too important to believe in the first thing you listen.
Let me get this right, you do not wish to accuse anyone unless you get everybody\'s side of the story, yet you rely on hearsay, a handful of political leaders, and TV to judge the USA and its 293 million citizens?
Also, as far as I know, French people are generally the heroes in French movies. I suspect this is pretty much the same everywhere.
Originally posted by fken
And do you know how are called the spies service of the Congo? of the chilian? of india? What the name of their government? and so one...
I don\'t know the name of their secret services, so I\'ll conclude that either they have none or they have pretty good ones (I\'m reasonably sure that India has one because of the tensions with Pakistan).
[edit] You\'ve peaked my curiosity , so I did some more research:
The chief intelligence agency in India is called the Research and Analysis Wing or RAW. Chile has a semiformal umbrella group called the National Intelligence Directorate or DINA (obviously one of Pinochet\'s favorite tools). I guess Congo has some form of secret service or police (afterall they had to suffer Mobutu\'s dictatorship), can\'t find the name. [/edit]
As a Frenchman you should know that the president of the Democratic Republic of Congo is Joseph Kabila (had to search for his first name). India\'s Prime Minister is Manmohan Singh (my background helped me there). As for the President of Chile, I must confess that I had to resort to a web search, it\'s Ricardo Lagos Escobar.
What\'s \"lingua franca\"?
A lingua franca is \"a language used as a common language between speakers whose native languages are different\" (Compact Oxford Dictionary).
-
one us-citizen polluted 4 times more than one european
And even if all the chineses pollute like the european it would be an ecological disaster...
...
Even if I think I must see before judging I think it must be true (because it has been told by good source: scientists for example)
president bush asked for buying pollution rights of african countries (do you think it\'s normal?)
What changed the state of the world was the WW1 and dont worry American wait 4 years...
in the WW2 they was forced to enter the war because of Japan. But who know how the things would happened if there were no Pearl Arbour...
The racism in Europa exists. one of my grand-father is algerian (Kabyle) and I cant tell you I\'ve been insulted since I was 7 because of my origins...
cold fusion is still a myth I dunno if it already exists and really I think our government are too proud: they are not as powerful as they are saying!
I dont think Columbine is the way you are! But it happened! The violence exists and omg guns are still sold to children! freely!
and the masses in all countries are stupid
The first thing you have to know about manipulation is that if you want to manipulate someone you have to make him think he is superior, untouchable, impossible to manipulate...
Every people think they are more intelligent than the mass of the population. The tv show us we are all more intelligent than our neighbourghood. A french poll shows us that the french think they drive better than the others frenches...
French army still existed and fight close to the britishs during this war. Never forget that. The problem is that everyone was manipulated. In my mind Hitler would have been killed quickly. Some people used him because he was popular but its government would not survive once the peace would come. I think the only thing the allies saved was the trade and the democracy but the democracy would reappears after... as you said france had dictators in its history like Napoleon and the the things would be quiet today even if Hitler won the war... off course its nice that Allies win but I wont judge the situation more horrible than how it was. The only real problem was the KZ: it was the real awful thing of that war.
I spoke about american image here in France but off course americans, frenches and the others humans arent really different. So I think its a human problem too... but I think it\'s an educational problem before everything.
Nada you dont answer to my question : what\'s the name of their government? not their presidents! (its curious... I knew only escobar...)
and for my sentences \"I WILL NEVER CONCLUDE ANYTHING AS LONG AS I DONT LISTEN TO EVERYBODY\", I was sure you wouldnt get it... I dunno why... but I was sure. So what I wanted to say was : the american opinion and the opposition opinion... You are not objective cause you knew what I was saying...
-
Originally posted by fken
I dont think Columbine is the way you are! But it happened! The violence exists and omg guns are still sold to children! freely!
Either your being ironic with the eurpoean opinion again or you are malinformed SEVERELY :P
There are european school shootings too.. In fact even with all that \"gun control\" europe has more gun crime then we do (sources Wall Street Journal AND Deutch Welle *see American AND German newspapaers agree*)
Also Im sorry about your grandfather.. Racism only breeds more racism so dont let it get to ya :)
Cold fusion has been practically tested in japan and india and even in france i think .. the worlds formost alternitive energy nations
I saw a forum page where a family named there child \"aryan pride\", Ive seen people re-elect bush.. Trust me the masses are stupid :rolleyes: Ive seen it (i dont drive better then anybody though.. i dont drive as its a pollutant. I walk or bike everywhere, trust me though I am the exception to the rule when it comes to not polluting ya\'ll europeans aint got nothing on me :] now if only i can get the rest of my country to do as i do XD )
Also i am aware of that statistic but things have really cleaned up as my sited sourced greenpeace and the green party which has suprisingly been working alongside libertarians lately have been getting more and more pissed AND active about american pollution.. i would dare say we only pollute twice as much (yeah still bad but twice as good as before ;) )
As capitalism is doing its thing (oil prices are so high that coroprate GREED ACTUALY MAKES them design more eco-friendly things.. irony in its finest, the people who got rich raping the planet now have to save it or go bankrupt)
Aint revenge a bitch?
AS for the ww1 ww2 thing i have no clue what you mean.. but i hoped clear up the stuff i did understand
-
Originally posted by Foresteer
Originally posted by fken
I dont think Columbine is the way you are! But it happened! The violence exists and omg guns are still sold to children! freely!
Either your being ironic with the eurpoean opinion again or you are malinformed SEVERELY :P
There are european school shootings too.. In fact even with all that \"gun control\" europe has more gun crime then we do (sources Wall Street Journal AND Deutch Welle *see American AND German newspapaers agree*)
Also Im sorry about your grandfather.. Racism only breeds more racism so dont let it get to ya :)
first why are you sorry for my grand father?
then ? what are you saying about school shouting in Europa??? As you said I NEVER LEARNT ANYTHING ABOUT THAT.
Are we thinking about the same? shooting is for gun using? to shoot somebody is killing someone with a gun isnt it? I never heard that in France and even in europa... I never heard anything about that... in France we are prefering knives and when ONE child is killed, everybody speak about school security for 2 or 3 weeks. There is no guns control when you enter in a french school. And there is no gun in school -> no school shooting...
-
Originally posted by Foresteer
Well now bin Laden is couragous.. it takes balls to even think of pissing off America (especialy all those rednecks that where up in arms.. i thought we where gonna have a D-Day in afganistan with bass boats as landing craft and hunting rifles and shot guns :P )
lol those rednecks were about 85% of the people living in about a 100 mile radius of me lol
i wouldnt say we were quite \"up in arms..\" down here,
for about the first month everyone was really rascist,
but after that everything went back to normal. you know, all of \"them\" (ooo scary) were just like everyone else, and fit in normally.
actually, our student body vice-president at school is a muslim from pakistan, and our president is african american.
most of the changes after bin laden were patriotic, not rascist... for about a year afterwards you\'d better have a flag hanging from your door and a yellow ribon bumper sticker ;) still today, i see more red and white striped flags than i\'d ever seen the rest of my life before 9-11.
i think people really overestimate rascism in america, especially in the south.
(btw, i live in a rural area that is predominately white, not in a big city like ATL where there is even less rascism.)
p.s. just so im clear, i strongly agree with pretty much everything monketh said, and i would have commeted to fken but his use of the language makes my brain want to explode;(
-
Let me try this.
We knew that 9/11 was going to happen! the government knew! congress(mainly republicans) wanted to go to war and start a new crusade. i\'m telling you. we went to war with bin lauden, bombed everything to the ground, and took over. we musta struck a deal because if we wanted to catch him, we would have had him by now. then we go on a nuke trip against sadaam, \"dey \'ave der wepers uh der mass destruction, der nucular (it\'s nuclear jackass bush) der bein liberizers un terist\"
how do we enter the war to free iraq from terrorism? BOMB A HOTEL OF COURSE! i mean really, now it\'s a good thing that we got rid of those nukes huh? good job, wait what? there was no nukes?? well what happened to korea? we just forgot about them didn\'t we? until we \"found evidence of weapons of mass destruction\" what now bush? did you find high levels of methane near a sewage plant? they must be making bombs out of that explosive gas........ stemcell research is the only thing i agree with him on, cuz he wants it.
-
Originally posted by Taurenthefirst
p.s. just so im clear, i strongly agree with pretty much everything monketh said, and i would have commeted to fken but his use of the language makes my brain want to explode;(
just to say I know Im not born in GB or USA but a lot of those who live there forgot to finish their words : \"No entry found for commeted.\"... Thank you Foresteer or I would still think its a word I dunno the meaning
The only thing you seem to learn to me was that you know your government is lying and you are \"patriots\" : it means that once the government lie you take your star sprangled banner and follow the liars!
You are ridiculous! and extremly dangerous. The rest of the world will always keep an eyes on you thinking you are a threat.
Personnaly I think it\'s not you the real threat but your behaviours and the way you have to \"forget\" how people can suffer. In that dicussion Im the only one who is taking care about Africa and south america. I the only one who said beeing taking care about poverty, about hungry, about suffering. You are speaking about economical issues and terrorist attack lol ... You create this terrorist attacks! Im not saying american created it but you all! Your individualism is a threat for all the humanity.
I dont think Ill continue to speak about that cause I think all has been told. I changed no mind and some people has considerating me as a \"pro bin Laden\" because I said I wont judge him and because I dunno exactly what he want because I never directly heard anything of what an extremist want. You will say thanks god I never listen to an extremist or I would have been killed! I would answer No No No in history it was never a mistake when someone listen to someone else! You prefer thinking what TV or neighbourghood said to you inspite of thinking by yourself! It\'s what created the worse things in history, the \"mass population effect\" (when frenches killed and made women suffering because they loved a german during the WW2, the anti communism of USA, or the anti wizard hunt, ... each time some groups mayhem alone people\'s body or mind...)
I think you are speaking about things you dunno. You will tell me Im wrong? You will tell me that Im the one who speak about things I dunno? lol I would answer Im the only one who said \"I dunno enough of things to judge because I never listen to everybody (to each groups if you prefer)\".
But I said I respect Bin Laden cause even if he is wrong (he killed innocents and I dont think its a good behaviours), he let his beautiful life to follow his ideas. I respect him because you need to be courageous to choose to let your perfect life to defend your ideas against the rest of the world. I know how the things are when you are opposed to the rest of the mass population ideas... I know it and I suffered because of some bas...ards who think their mind and their ideas are the only one which are allowed. When someone need help I help someone. One day a man of my classroom laugh at m saying \"eh why are you helping them. Do you need to make your good action of the day ? (it was ironic)\". I answered it was in my nature. I cant live if Im not trying to help people to live in a better atmosphere... He still cant understand me. When I pick up the batteries I fund on the pavement people look at me like if I was a beggar. I dont care about their judgement but I find them ridiculous: their earth is suffering and their individualism is better (\"it\'s not my job: Im not paid for that\")... I would like that every people would be responsible and dont try to find ridiculous excuse to explain why they are individual. If you are a bas**rd dont lie: say it, shout it if you want but dont tell to your children that you werent aware of what\'s happen in your country ot that you cannot do anything. Only dumb people will believe in you.
-
im not sure what you just meant fken lol, but dont worry i wasnt insulting you about the language thing, im pretty positive that you speak english way better than i speak whatever your native laguage is (unless that language is spanish, but i dont think so based all your political veiws from comments i can understand :D)
im guessing probably french, of which i know about 4 words...anyway i guess that was kinda OT so i better put somthing important
Originally posted by Black_rose
Let me try this.
We knew that 9/11 was going to happen! the government knew! congress(mainly republicans) wanted to go to war and start a new crusade. i\'m telling you.
umm im not really sure how you came up with the idea that we KNEW about 9-11 before it happened. some sort of evidence would be nice, cuz ive never heard that.
i mean, no one predicted it publicly did they? other than that unless you work for the government i dont see how you could know whether or not they knew...
oh and please dont show any evidence from the media, and i hope you didnt get this idea from the media, cuz that is one of the most ignorant things som1 can do in america (trust the media)
-
Originally posted by Taurenthefirst
im not sure what you just meant fken lol, but dont worry i wasnt insulting you about the language thing, im pretty positive that you speak english way better than i speak whatever your native laguage is (unless that language is spanish, but i dont think so based all your political veiws from comments i can understand :D)
im guessing probably french, of which i know about 4 words...anyway i guess that was kinda OT so i better put somthing important
oh sorry I posted it to quickly... I wanted to say that everybody is writing mistakes and it\'s really hard to me to understand what people wanted to say sometimes. For example, Foreester said something and I wasnt able to understand a sentence of one of his post.
Originally posted by Taurenthefirst
Originally posted by Black_rose
Let me try this.
We knew that 9/11 was going to happen! the government knew! congress(mainly republicans) wanted to go to war and start a new crusade. i\'m telling you.
umm im not really sure how you came up with the idea that we KNEW about 9-11 before it happened. some sort of evidence would be nice, cuz ive never heard that.
i mean, no one predicted it publicly did they? other than that unless you work for the government i dont see how you could know whether or not they knew...
oh and please dont show any evidence from the media, and i hope you didnt get this idea from the media, cuz that is one of the most ignorant things som1 can do in america (trust the media)
I heard the same thing. US government knew a terrorist attack was prepared... But nobody spoke to me directly and even if some people would say Im speaking about conspiracy I think sometimes Media are not really objective. But I wont tell you it\'s wrong... I even think it\'s possible...
-
Originally posted by fken
It would be too hard for me to contradict yourself. If you think there is any kind of honour to answer like you do, especially Monketh, I think it\'s good for you and I wont aswer. I\'ve nothing to get by contradicting you, I will just lost my time by trying to read carefully a text which has nothing to deals with what I said.
So all you said is surely right even if a very majority was absolutly far of what I said. (and believe in me, as Im not native english I must concentrate myself to read and sometimes you are speaking about anything else implicitly trying to contradict what I said... I think Ill think you are not trying to confusing me just to be sure to bore me and win a very useless price...)
Oh, I\'m sorry man. I always write like that, I like fancy words too much for my own good.
Example: You said capitalism isnt born in United States... but, Monketh, do you really think I care about that? And in fact the great majority of what you said wasnt objective especially when you said something which dont deals with what I said (and moreover after quoting me!). So, as I think you are someone intelligent, I will ask you to read what I wrote again and try to rephrase your answer if what you said dealt really with what I meant.
Okay, I will rephrase all that.
But as you said there is no racism in USA, Im really astonished. Maybe Im wrong but each times someone said something about skin colours in USA... its amazing how its sad! The movies, the news, the history... everything seems to say: in USA, white people and black people arent equal... But if you say the contrary... and as you surely live in USA (is it true?), you will learn me that USA is a superb melting pot with absolutly no racism... a s o.
What I meant is that rascism is rare in the USA. The vast majority do not care about race now. We still like rascist jokes, though. There are economic differences left over from slavery, but those can be removed by good parents and hard work.
Please tell me you were joking when you said USA are good cause they buy iraq\'s oil... tell me you were joking... (I never said it was a good joke off course).
Kind of joking. We pay a lot of money to the whole middle-east for oil. They hate us. You would think if boycotting was common, americans would stop buying from people who did not like them.
\"Ironie\" is a kind of joke. It\'s when you say something which is wrong just to make fun of it. It\'s a way to show you are against it cause what you say is so huge, so incredible that you cannot trust in it.
Example: KKK\'s members are the best friends of black community.
Ok, I guess I read you correctly then. Here\'s the new word of the day: \"Satirical.\" Things which are satirical (satires) make a point by irony.
If you say something without sharing the opinion but just want to show how dumb it is you can and if you thing some people could not understand you were laughing you can add: \"je suis ironique l?\"-> \"Im ironic yet!\"
Eh? \"Je suis ironique l?.\" I am ironic there. I am learning french, I\'ll have to remember that one.
I dont read all your post cause here in France its 3 o clock and read something which astonish me (because its far of what I could expect) at 3 o clock is too boring.
Agreed.
I have seen something about French revolution... All you have to know is that franch revolution was a way to manipulate the people to take the power. It\'s how I felt it and how I keep on feeling it. Im not proud of my country of my history (a history with some holes which allow my mind to think my country is a good one, has done good choices, ...)
Yep, the people took power. It was very bloody at times, though.
Could you say me whats patriotism? I saw this word at the end... its a nice word and as I really think patriotism is nationalism (but nationalism make people think about Nazi so patriotism is better), I think you could show me Im wrong.
But if patriotism is only a way to say you have to protect your country and your government opinion by forgetting to think about the problem, and share your own opinion with the other, please just tell me that and dont keep on replying to this thread cause everything would not be objective...
Patriotism is fighting to save your country from tyranny.
Nationalism is fighting for your country because it is your country.
Hope that helps. :)
Now, to the matter of Native Americans (a.k.a. indians);
The U.S. Government \"bought\" a lot of land (all that west of itself on the continent) from the French government a couple hundred years ago, it was called the \"Lousiana Purchase.\"
They told the native americans to get off the land, and move to reservations. Many refused, and when they refused, the army would either attack them directly or else kill their foodsource, the buffalo.
Some native americans tribes would write treaties with the government for safety or land or trade. Sometimes, the military or other branches of the government (it is made of many people, so it happens a lot) would illegally break the treaty. Out in the desert, who will stop a rampaging, rascist general?
-
About the racism thing i just meant i was sorry you got picked on :( (didnt mean i was sorry as contempt or pity. I just meant i was sorry for the sadness that you said you faced :-/ )
Also i dont have to bring a gun INTO school to do a shooting i just have to get NEAR it and kick a door down or shoot a guard (and since guns can shoot half a mile.. yeah Id be preety successful in that right)
Not that I\'d do such a thing naturaly but gun \"control\" never solved anything, ANYBODY can but a gun ANYWHERE regardless of the \"law\" or \"control\" also CRIMINALS admit they DO NOT COMMIT CRIMES WHEN THEY KNOW THERE WILL BE A GUN INVOLVED. They may wield guns when they know the person they are attacking doesnt have one, but rarely will if they know they do (some pople are mentaly sick and will be violent regardless of thier personal safety)
As per countless studies of, about and with criminals.. Gun control isnt the answer quite the opposite giving EVERYBODY guns in the answer. There are \"experimental\" cities in america where guns are not controled registered and no forms of control exist (they also used to be very violent). Now they have had almost NO violent crime as the criminals are scared of dying themselves. So i just say let the numbers speak for themselves, as you cant twist a statistic my friend ;) it has only one meaning.
Also like monketh i speak rather complexly and am sorry ;( (i have to concentrate hard to understand you but i still enjoy talking with you :D :tup: )
Well i am utterly exhausted.. im going to bed :O
-
Who cares? Really, you don\'t live here and we havn\'t invaded you....yet. ;)
Get over it, if its not your contry, why should you care. For all I\'m concernd the only people allowed to be pissed at the US right now and the Afganies and the Iraqies for invading their country, blowing it into bits to find one guy, and (supposedly) leaving.
Now the rest of you can go move to Iraq or Afganistan and then complain.
-
your point of view seems to be still incredibly amazing...
Foresteer spoke about stats... Sweet. Ask to a british how many people died last years in their country because of gun...
less than 100 persons has been shot.
It\'s strange because in GB the policemen dont have any gun...
-------------------------
Monketh are you telling me you that Iraq must thank USA because USA is buying their oil? Everybody in the world know it was the goal of the war : to get the oil of the Iraq unhabitant...
Bush spoke about democraty, about tyranny of Hussein... but in fact if you ask to a Iraq unhabitant what he wants today he will answer you he would come back to the Saddam Hussein time... I think USA just created a new islamist violence pole, In 10 or 20 years I think some terrorist attacks against Europa or USA will be created there... Thank you Bush...
---------------------------
\"Je suis ironique l?.-> I am ironic there.\" is wrong translation
l? could means now too.
---------------------------
Thanks to the french revolution rich people took the power by manipulating the french people. The people doesnt take the power!
Dont tell me Robespierre was a normal france unhabitant...
---------------------------
So Efflixi Aduro said me, if Im not wrong, that as long as USA dont wage a war against france or Europa I have nothing to care about it... Nice so why defending the Poland in 1939? hey Poland it\'s not us. Poland had nothing to deals with France... it\'s like tchekoslovakia... and once France realize it was a mistake... it was too late...
Oh you have not a Tyran like Hitler in your government... you have Bush, you have Schwarzy, you had reagan, you were created a nice cold war by playing with Russia, you wage a war every 3 years to train your new weapon on civilians, a big number of your presidents has been killed, you are buying the pollution right of Africa, you dont want to stop using antipersonal mine, you want that your soldier get immunities, your companies want to control everything especially our privacy, some people in USA thought Saddam Hussein was the one who destruct the twin tower, some people are scared by poverty so they created places like Beverley Hills to feel protected (I said that because you live in LA so I think you must know what Im talking about), and so one...
So off course Europa will follow you blindly...
But dont worry we have our problems too. All what I said was that we will always care about what USA do because USA are ... a threat sometimes.
-
Originally posted by fken
but in fact if you ask to a Iraq unhabitant what he wants today he will answer you he would come back to the Saddam Hussein time...
I\'m happy to see that you\'ve started learning Arabic. Obviously you would not believe in someone else\'s translation, especially the Western media\'s, would you? :D
Originally posted by fken
\"Je suis ironique l?.-> I am ironic there.\" is wrong translation
l? could means now too.
I find the translation works fine, but of course I\'m not a linguist.
Originally posted by fken
Thanks to the french revolution rich people took the power by manipulating the french people. The people doesnt take the power!
Oh, come on! Monarchy or democracy, choose whichever you like best. Don\'t tell me Robespierre or modern politicians \"force\" people to accept their ideas (Remember, you were adamant that the French were being manipulated into voting \"yes\", did that happen?). And if ever people are so easily manipulated, well they get the leaders they deserve.
Originally posted by fken
Oh you have not a Tyran like Hitler in your government... you have Bush, you have Schwarzy, you had reagan, you were created a nice cold war by playing with Russia, you wage a war every 3 years to train your new weapon on civilians
Not like Hitler, you say, but you place Bush/Arny/Reagan on the same moral level?
Anyway, can someone explain to me what Arnold (cantspellhisname) has done to be hated as much?
Weapon practice on civilians? If they want to train their soldiers, there are far more interesting targets don\'t you think?
Originally posted by fken
some people in USA thought Saddam Hussein was the one who destruct the twin tower, some people are scared by poverty so they created places like Beverley Hills to feel protected
For once, I agree with you: the keyword here is \"some\".
-
Originally posted by fken
but in fact if you ask to a Iraq unhabitant what he wants today he will answer you he would come back to the Saddam Hussein time...
I\'m happy to see that you\'ve started learning Arabic. Obviously you would not believe in someone else\'s translation, especially the Western media\'s, would you? :D
Originally posted by fken
\"Je suis ironique l?.-> I am ironic there.\" is wrong translation
l? could means now too.
I find the translation works fine, but of course I\'m not a linguist.
Originally posted by fken
Thanks to the french revolution rich people took the power by manipulating the french people. The people doesnt take the power!
Oh, come on! Monarchy or democracy, choose whichever you like best. Don\'t tell me Robespierre or modern politicians \"force\" people to accept their ideas (Remember, you were adamant that the French were being manipulated into voting \"yes\", did that happen?). And if ever people are so easily manipulated, well they get the leaders they deserve.
Originally posted by fken
Oh you have not a Tyran like Hitler in your government... you have Bush, you have Schwarzy, you had reagan, you were created a nice cold war by playing with Russia, you wage a war every 3 years to train your new weapon on civilians
Not like Hitler, you say, but you place Bush/Arny/Reagan on the same moral level?
Anyway, can someone explain to me what Arnold (cantspellhisname) has done to be hated as much?
Weapon practice on civilians? If they want to train their soldiers, there are far more interesting targets don\'t you think?
Originally posted by fken
some people in USA thought Saddam Hussein was the one who destruct the twin tower, some people are scared by poverty so they created places like Beverley Hills to feel protected
For once, I agree with you: the keyword here is \"some\".
-
Originally posted by fken
your point of view seems to be still incredibly amazing...
Foresteer spoke about stats... Sweet. Ask to a british how many people died last years in their country because of gun...
less than 100 persons has been shot.
It\'s strange because in GB the policemen dont have any gun...
-------------------------
the british are just really great people lol ;)
Monketh are you telling me you that Iraq must thank USA because USA is buying their oil? Everybody in the world know it was the goal of the war : to get the oil of the Iraq unhabitant...
Bush spoke about democraty, about tyranny of Hussein... but in fact if you ask to a Iraq unhabitant what he wants today he will answer you he would come back to the Saddam Hussein time... I think USA just created a new islamist violence pole, In 10 or 20 years I think some terrorist attacks against Europa or USA will be created there... Thank you Bush...
ok what in the world gives you the idea that we caused a war over oil? the cost of war FAR outweighs the price of oil lol, think about it, use your brain. plus, there\'s not as much of a shortage of oil as people think, its mostly just gas companies driving up prices.
Thanks to the french revolution rich people took the power by manipulating the french people. The people doesnt take the power!
Dont tell me Robespierre was a normal france unhabitant...
yeah actually he was... he grew up poor, but BECAUSE he worked hard he was able to get a scholarship and go to a university where he bacame a lawyer...
Oh you have not a Tyran like Hitler in your government... you have Bush, you have Schwarzy, you had reagan, you were created a nice cold war by playing with Russia, you wage a war every 3 years to train your new weapon on civilians, a big number of your presidents has been killed, you are buying the pollution right of Africa, you dont want to stop using antipersonal mine, you want that your soldier get immunities, your companies want to control everything especially our privacy, some people in USA thought Saddam Hussein was the one who destruct the twin tower, some people are scared by poverty so they created places like Beverley Hills to feel protected (I said that because you live in LA so I think you must know what Im talking about), and so one...
So off course Europa will follow you blindly...
But dont worry we have our problems too. All what I said was that we will always care about what USA do because USA are ... a threat sometimes.
i agree usa is a threat, that\'s how cool we are :) lol just kidding
but anyway, why in the world are you listing ronald reagan in a group comparing hitler???? yeah the others are definite exagerations, but plenty of people do not like them for various reasons so atleast that makes some since... but reagan????? he was not only one of the most popular presidents america has ever had, but he was one of the most succesful leaders in modern times! first of all, he ENDED the cold war, you put him in there like he started it, btw nobody \"created\" the cold war, it was just a result of the fear of communism and powerful military technology during WWII and afterwards...
and well if \"europa\" will follow us blindly, well their heading down the wrong path for popular culture.. ours sucks(like you said about beverly hills). but economically they would probably be much better off (i\'m no expert of course) and people would probably have more freedom (not that that\'s always a good thing)
and a war every 3 years? big time exageration. the last one ended in \'91 i think, the first gulf war, which was ALSO over suddam hussein (however you spell it) not oil...
oh, btw, iraq SHOULD be thanking us, not because we buy their oil, which has nothing to do with anything, but because we liberated (there\'s a bush word for ya :P )
them from the tyranny (and another!) of suddam. he killed between 100\'s of thousands to millions (know one know how many, but even the lowest estimates are alot) of his own people. and alot of iraqis are thanking us, well maybe not directly, but haven\'t you ever seen the video where there are hundred\'s of people tearing down the statue of saddam? although that is part of the media distorting everything, i usually trust video\'s, technology hasn\'t really gotten to where you can fake a video of that many people doing something that unique (it\'s difficult to \"add in\" people tearing down that exact same stature without them actually tearing it down, or without it looking atleast a little bit fake...)
-
Originally posted by Nada
Originally posted by fken
but in fact if you ask to a Iraq unhabitant what he wants today he will answer you he would come back to the Saddam Hussein time...
I\'m happy to see that you\'ve started learning Arabic. Obviously you would not believe in someone else\'s translation, especially the Western media\'s, would you? :D
ok so you are right if I want to follow what I said I must say anything else. But if you really think Im wrong here you must admit you were wrong before... and you will never admit anything...
Originally posted by Nada
Originally posted by fken
\"Je suis ironique l?.-> I am ironic there.\" is wrong translation
l? could means now too.
I find the translation works fine, but of course I\'m not a linguist.
Im not a linguist but I said I think the translation isnt true: it meant \"je suis ironique en ce moment\" So Im ironic now (or yet)!
Originally posted by Nada
Originally posted by fken
Thanks to the french revolution rich people took the power by manipulating the french people. The people doesnt take the power!
Oh, come on! Monarchy or democracy, choose whichever you like best. Don\'t tell me Robespierre or modern politicians \"force\" people to accept their ideas (Remember, you were adamant that the French were being manipulated into voting \"yes\", did that happen?). And if ever people are so easily manipulated, well they get the leaders they deserve.
Dont you think we were manipulated? nice you are alone! even my father which voted yes was saying to me: I vote yes but its... (as you will get it wrongly I dont translate it) ? contre coeur. I know my father and, if he said that, it was not for nothing. Indeed if he voted yes its because he wanted to vote yes... but whats happened simply bored him. And Im able to understand why.
Originally posted by Nada
Originally posted by fken
Oh you have not a Tyran like Hitler in your government... you have Bush, you have Schwarzy, you had reagan, you were created a nice cold war by playing with Russia, you wage a war every 3 years to train your new weapon on civilians
Not like Hitler, you say, but you place Bush/Arny/Reagan on the same moral level?
Anyway, can someone explain to me what Arnold (cantspellhisname) has done to be hated as much?
Weapon practice on civilians? If they want to train their soldiers, there are far more interesting targets don\'t you think?
if you like him propose him a place as president of France. I wont speak about Schwarzy anymore even if I have arguments.
Originally posted by Nada
Originally posted by fken
some people in USA thought Saddam Hussein was the one who destruct the twin tower, some people are scared by poverty so they created places like Beverley Hills to feel protected
For once, I agree with you: the keyword here is \"some\".
sweet... but SOME IS TOO MUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Taurenthefirst
Originally posted by fken
your point of view seems to be still incredibly amazing...
Foresteer spoke about stats... Sweet. Ask to a british how many people died last years in their country because of gun...
less than 100 persons has been shot.
It\'s strange because in GB the policemen dont have any gun...
-------------------------
the british are just really great people lol ;)
I dont think its the only one reason...
Originally posted by Taurenthefirst
Monketh are you telling me you that Iraq must thank USA because USA is buying their oil? Everybody in the world know it was the goal of the war : to get the oil of the Iraq unhabitant...
Bush spoke about democraty, about tyranny of Hussein... but in fact if you ask to a Iraq unhabitant what he wants today he will answer you he would come back to the Saddam Hussein time... I think USA just created a new islamist violence pole, In 10 or 20 years I think some terrorist attacks against Europa or USA will be created there... Thank you Bush...
ok what in the world gives you the idea that we caused a war over oil? the cost of war FAR outweighs the price of oil lol, think about it, use your brain. plus, there\'s not as much of a shortage of oil as people think, its mostly just gas companies driving up prices.
you are right however oil isnt the only reason I quoted: oil, bombs testing and rebuilding service for american companies. There are others reasons I still dunno and dont want to know in fact...
I wont forget Bush said that France wont get his part of the rebuilding of Iraq... sweet isnt it? It remembers me a piece of cake, doesnt it? You need to learn something now: a government will never wage a war for nothing! There are always something behind the official reasons. Im hurt too when I think about it... but its the truth. The day you will understand that dont tell it to your neighbourghood... or you will realize anything else: human illness is everywhere and nothing is simple. As long as human behaviours seem to be simple its because you are wrong.
Originally posted by Taurenthefirst
Thanks to the french revolution rich people took the power by manipulating the french people. The people doesnt take the power!
Dont tell me Robespierre was a normal france unhabitant...
yeah actually he was... he grew up poor, but BECAUSE he worked hard he was able to get a scholarship and go to a university where he bacame a lawyer...
lol amusing. As you are are lying I wont be nice in my answer. You would have to translate that alone ;-)
\"Sa famille paternelle appartenait ? la noblesse de robe et il a d\'abord exerc? la fonction d\'avocat, comme son p?re et son grand-p?re.\"
Originally posted by Taurenthefirst
Oh you have not a Tyran like Hitler in your government... you have Bush, you have Schwarzy, you had reagan, you were created a nice cold war by playing with Russia, you wage a war every 3 years to train your new weapon on civilians, a big number of your presidents has been killed, you are buying the pollution right of Africa, you dont want to stop using antipersonal mine, you want that your soldier get immunities, your companies want to control everything especially our privacy, some people in USA thought Saddam Hussein was the one who destruct the twin tower, some people are scared by poverty so they created places like Beverley Hills to feel protected (I said that because you live in LA so I think you must know what Im talking about), and so one...
So off course Europa will follow you blindly...
But dont worry we have our problems too. All what I said was that we will always care about what USA do because USA are ... a threat sometimes.
i agree usa is a threat, that\'s how cool we are :) lol just kidding
but anyway, why in the world are you listing ronald reagan in a group comparing hitler???? yeah the others are definite exagerations, but plenty of people do not like them for various reasons so atleast that makes some since... but reagan????? he was not only one of the most popular presidents america has ever had, but he was one of the most succesful leaders in modern times! first of all, he ENDED the cold war, you put him in there like he started it, btw nobody \"created\" the cold war, it was just a result of the fear of communism and powerful military technology during WWII and afterwards...
and well if \"europa\" will follow us blindly, well their heading down the wrong path for popular culture.. ours sucks(like you said about beverly hills). but economically they would probably be much better off (i\'m no expert of course) and people would probably have more freedom (not that that\'s always a good thing)
I dont compare Hitler to Reagan... there was no irony there...
I simply dont like Reagan Policy, like I dont like Bush father policy like I dont like Bush junior policy... and if 1$ cost 0,70? it doesnt mean europa needs your help... in 3 years you lost 30% of your economical power...
Originally posted by Taurenthefirst
and a war every 3 years? big time exageration. the last one ended in \'91 i think, the first gulf war, which was ALSO over suddam hussein (however you spell it) not oil...
you are right you dont really have to wage a war to drop bombs... But you understood me, dont you? USA bombs a country every 2 or 3 years...
Originally posted by Taurenthefirst
oh, btw, iraq SHOULD be thanking us, not because we buy their oil, which has nothing to do with anything, but because we liberated (there\'s a bush word for ya :P )
them from the tyranny (and another!) of suddam. he killed between 100\'s of thousands to millions (know one know how many, but even the lowest estimates are alot) of his own people. and alot of iraqis are thanking us, well maybe not directly, but haven\'t you ever seen the video where there are hundred\'s of people tearing down the statue of saddam? although that is part of the media distorting everything, i usually trust video\'s, technology hasn\'t really gotten to where you can fake a video of that many people doing something that unique (it\'s difficult to \"add in\" people tearing down that exact same stature without them actually tearing it down, or without it looking atleast a little bit fake...)
I would have a lot of respect for you if you travel to Irak go on the market and say to the iraq citizen what you just said... Dont tell me they arent intelligent enough to understand it would be insulting them! (and insulting another country it\'s what I call a kind of racism)
-
Originally posted by fken
your point of view seems to be still incredibly amazing...
Foresteer spoke about stats... Sweet. Ask to a british how many people died last years in their country because of gun...
well actually it\'s the person behind the gun, and right now, a lot of prejiduce is being upheld in my country, a long with poverty and other homeland issues that no one is addresssing.....
-------------------------
Monketh are you telling me you that Iraq must thank USA because USA is buying their oil? Everybody in the world know it was the goal of the war : to get the oil of the Iraq unhabitant...
i agree
---------------------------
---------------------------
Thanks to the french revolution rich people took the power by manipulating the french people. The people doesnt take the power!
Dont tell me Robespierre was a normal france unhabitant...
Rich people always had power. not just after the french rev.
---------------------------
So Efflixi Aduro said me, if Im not wrong, that as long as USA dont wage a war against france or Europa I have nothing to care about it... Nice so why defending the Poland in 1939? hey Poland it\'s not us. Poland had nothing to deals with France... it\'s like tchekoslovakia... and once France realize it was a mistake... it was too late...
i see your point.
Oh you have not a Tyran like Hitler in your government... you have Bush, you have Schwarzy, you had reagan, you were created a nice cold war by playing with Russia, you wage a war every 3 years to train your new weapon on civilians
nah. we get into wars to cover up homeland issues. like ancient rome did with gladiators.
, a big number of your presidents has been killed, you are buying the pollution right of Africa, you dont want to stop using antipersonal mine, you want that your soldier get immunities,
being serious, i never heard that.
your companies want to control everything especially our privacy, some people in USA thought Saddam Hussein was the one who destruct the twin tower, some people are scared by poverty so they created places like Beverley Hills to feel protected (I said that because you live in LA so I think you must know what Im talking about), and so one...
So off course Europa will follow you blindly...
All of that is pretty much true. and bush tricked people into believing it. even though WE KNEW THEY WERE NOT CONTACTING EACHOTHER. they must be working together.
But dont worry we have our problems too. All what I said was that we will always care about what USA do because USA are ... a threat sometimes.
I understand that aswall, but we are a threat more then sometimes.
-
I dunno the real number of assassinated american president. but JFK is one of the most famous, his brother too I remember and some other... JFK its not too far...
all country are allowed to pollute untill a specific level... America reach this level and Bush wanted to buy right to pollute to Africa... (off course it has been seen like an insult by the others countries unhabitants). But Im not sure Bush was the only president who ask for it (maybe it was before bush for the first time... but Bush ask it again off course...)
Im not sure but every countries sign a treaty again anti personal mine using... except China and USA... (Im not sure if there is not another countries... but it\'s what I learnt).
Bush (here I am sure that it was Bush) wants that american soldiers get immunities once they are fighting... off course, in Iraq, we had nothing to reproach to american soldiers :D
------------------
I said sometimes because I want to say that not everything america does is bad...
-
Originally posted by fken
Dont you think we were manipulated? nice you are alone! even my father which voted yes was saying to me: I vote yes but its... (as you will get it wrongly I dont translate it) ? contre coeur. I know my father and, if he said that, it was not for nothing. Indeed if he voted yes its because he wanted to vote yes... but whats happened simply bored him. And Im able to understand why.
please clarify this statement. to me it sounds like you were saying your father was part of the french revolution, which cant be true unless he is 200 years old and either you are like 170 years old or he had you fairly late in his life (french revolution ended late 1700\'s to early 1800\'s)
so, i really dont understand what your saying here...
Originally posted by fken
if you like him propose him a place as president of France. I wont speak about Schwarzy anymore even if I have arguments.
I assume you guys are talking about the \"terminator\" here (also known as kindergarten cop, and many others :D :)) )
i think he is pretty happy with his job in the land of fruits (mostly oranges) and nuts ;)
Originally posted by fken
Originally posted by Nada
Originally posted by fken
some people in USA thought Saddam Hussein was the one who destruct the twin tower, some people are scared by poverty so they created places like Beverley Hills to feel protected
For once, I agree with you: the keyword here is \"some\".
sweet... but SOME IS TOO MUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i personally have never ever heard this rumor before till this thread, some im assuming (we know how bad things can turn out when we do that :] ) that not many other people think that, so that \"some\" would be a very small number, mostly stupid people, which every country has :P
Originally posted by fken
Originally posted by Taurenthefirst
Monketh are you telling me you that Iraq must thank USA because USA is buying their oil? Everybody in the world know it was the goal of the war : to get the oil of the Iraq unhabitant...
Bush spoke about democraty, about tyranny of Hussein... but in fact if you ask to a Iraq unhabitant what he wants today he will answer you he would come back to the Saddam Hussein time... I think USA just created a new islamist violence pole, In 10 or 20 years I think some terrorist attacks against Europa or USA will be created there... Thank you Bush...
ok what in the world gives you the idea that we caused a war over oil? the cost of war FAR outweighs the price of oil lol, think about it, use your brain. plus, there\'s not as much of a shortage of oil as people think, its mostly just gas companies driving up prices.
you are right however oil isnt the only reason I quoted: oil, bombs testing and rebuilding service for american companies. There are others reasons I still dunno and dont want to know in fact...
I wont forget Bush said that France wont get his part of the rebuilding of Iraq... sweet isnt it? It remembers me a piece of cake, doesnt it? You need to learn something now: a government will never wage a war for nothing! There are always something behind the official reasons. Im hurt too when I think about it... but its the truth. The day you will understand that dont tell it to your neighbourghood... or you will realize anything else: human illness is everywhere and nothing is simple. As long as human behaviours seem to be simple its because you are wrong.
Originally posted by Taurenthefirst
ok i dont really understand the cake analoagy, or anything you said after that fken, but about the \"bombs testing and rebuilding service for american companies\":
why would ANYONE need to test bombs on real people unless they were like chemical bombs and they were trying to see how much it tortures people before they die (if you can prove to me that u.s.a. used these types of weapons in the war with iraq than ill....ummm..... well ill do something.......crazy!)
otherwise, there are MANY large military test sights for the amercan amed services (for example, area 51, duh!)
where bombs could (and are) be tested much more effieciently than in the heat of a war... would your rather be able to collect data with state of the are sensors and the most advanced technology in the world while sitting in a laboratory, or while during the middle of the war...
plus, the idea of creating wars for TESTING bombs is purely stupid from a logical standpoint... why do we need to test bombs? to use them in wars... duh. kinda defeats the purpose doesn\'t it? just imagine
Soldier: this bomb is the only thing keeping us from having to go to all out infantry war, so were gonna send it right over! Oh yeah, its never been tested before, so let\'s just hope it works!
man i wish people would think sometimes...
Originally posted by fken
Thanks to the french revolution rich people took the power by manipulating the french people. The people doesnt take the power!
Dont tell me Robespierre was a normal france unhabitant...
yeah actually he was... he grew up poor, but BECAUSE he worked hard he was able to get a scholarship and go to a university where he bacame a lawyer...
lol amusing. As you are are lying I wont be nice in my answer. You would have to translate that alone ;-)
that\'s not a lie... do you not know your history? look it up in any text book... encyclapedia(spelling?)
for example, from the yahoo encyclapedia :D (first one that came up in my search engine)
\"A poor youth, he was enabled to study law in Paris through a scholarship. He won admiration for his abilities, but his austerity and dedication isolated him from easy companionship. Returning to his native Arras, he practiced law and gained some reputation.\"
Originally posted by fken [I/]
Originally posted by Taurenthefirst
and a war every 3 years? big time exageration. the last one ended in \'91 i think, the first gulf war, which was ALSO over suddam hussein (however you spell it) not oil...
you are right you dont really have to wage a war to drop bombs... But you understood me, dont you? USA bombs a country every 2 or 3 years...
ok please tell me the last time usa dropped a bomb (other than the war with iraq or afgahnistan)
i think if anyone in whatever country your from knows about a bombing the u.s. has done then i think i would know since i have lived here all my life (not that i know everything the american government/military does, i just dont think you have any evidence for this bogus statement
there was somalia, not really sure what happened there or what that was all about, but it was definitley more than 8 years ago (before bush jr.)
and then clinton bombed an asprin factory (God knows why), which would also be more than 8 years ago (clinton=before bush jr., in case you didn\'t know :D )
really do you have any idea what you are talking about?? nothing i understand from you (btw, your english is improving from what i can tell, either that or im just getting smarter :] ) sites any specific examples or shows any example of anything that happened in real life... it just seems to me that this is what you fantasize (spelling?) america to be... or is that what you are doing?
Originally posted by Taurenthefirst
oh, btw, iraq SHOULD be thanking us, not because we buy their oil, which has nothing to do with anything, but because we liberated (there\'s a bush word for ya :P )
them from the tyranny (and another!) of suddam. he killed between 100\'s of thousands to millions (know one know how many, but even the lowest estimates are alot) of his own people. and alot of iraqis are thanking us, well maybe not directly, but haven\'t you ever seen the video where there are hundred\'s of people tearing down the statue of saddam? although that is part of the media distorting everything, i usually trust video\'s, technology hasn\'t really gotten to where you can fake a video of that many people doing something that unique (it\'s difficult to \"add in\" people tearing down that exact same stature without them actually tearing it down, or without it looking atleast a little bit fake...)
I would have a lot of respect for you if you travel to Irak go on the market and say to the iraq citizen what you just said... Dont tell me they arent intelligent enough to understand it would be insulting them! (and insulting another country it\'s what I call a kind of racism)
how in the world would that be insulting to them if i said wouldn\'t understand? do you really expect everyone or even a majority of the people in iraq to speak english? do you expect everyone or a majority of the people in a country to speak more than their native language? how in the world would that be rascist? that\'s just... well i dont really know what to call it because i dont understand how you came up with that idea.
anyway, back to the point, not everyone in iraq is thanking us, i didn\'t say they were. i just said many (maybe i should have changed that to some, sorry my mistake) were.
however, just because they aren\'t thanking use doesn\'t mean they liked saddam. sadly, many people (not just iraqi\'s) hate americans(how suprising, never would have thought that by looking at this thread) and then expect americans to save the world, over and over again(ok, well that only happened twice :D ), but then since they still hate america ( i don\'t blame them, everyone hates succesful people, companies, sports teams (stupid brazilian soccer team lol ;) ) even countries)
and then they dont show their gratitude...
anyway, that\'s just my 2 cents ;)
@black rose: what was the point of your last thread? everyone could have read almost exactly what you said in fken\'s post. you could have just said \"i agree with fken except for this one part\" much simpler
@fken also btw, you need to learn when i\'m being sarcastic/making a sad attempt at being funny. for example, the thing about british being nice, that was a joke, even though im sure they are very great people :D
-
I think you are kidding with a real important subject. Off course, nobody will change anything here. So why not joking...
You joked with french voting about european constitution
You joked with California governator
You joked with French history (I used wikipedia personaly :-D but Im sure an american will know MY country\'s history better than me... off course I knew you were joking)
( http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robespierre ) learn french or ask to a friend ;-)
You joked when I spoke about american who said Saddam Hussein was the one who sent the plain to the tower. But Im not sure you understood what was the threat there... Will I tell you? yeah because Im a nice guy always ready to help : french media shows us Americans who said that. Like you can see american media arent the only one which shows stupid things or tried to endoctrine people... but for sure, you will joke about that subject too by saying american media are everytime objective...
The cake analogy was an implicit image of europa in the 1900s about China... Your behaviours are like the one of europa before the WW1... but the difference is that USA know they cannot colonize. It\'s not usefull anymore. Now its time to colonize the Trade of the World and to exploit poverty...
You asked why dropping bombs would be usefull. I was wondering if you were joking but I concluded you weren\'t... Tell me if Im wrong please. It\'s just because you can test bomb on human bodies and then said \"We created the most powerful bomb of the world\"... off course you wont tell that because your president is here to shout that... It has been tested on human beeings just to prove you were more powerful than other to the rest of the world...
I am sure you wont believe in it because Im sure its still a secret in USA but Hiroshima and Nagazaki was just two tests of the bomb A...
Dont say its wrong dont say it was because you wanted to save the life of your soldiers. Because everyone (the one who learnt history outside the USA) know the reality...
-------------------
otherwise, there are MANY large military test sights for the amercan amed services (for example, area 51, duh!)
-------------------
the famous area51... lol and where are the aliens? Im sure there is nothing really interesting there... maybe new weapons like OICW...
--------------------------------------------------------------
plus, the idea of creating wars for TESTING bombs is purely stupid from a logical standpoint... why do we need to test bombs? to use them in wars... duh. kinda defeats the purpose doesn\'t it? just imagine
-------------------------------------------------------
I think you must write that to your president... just write that and tell me what would be the answer...
---------------------------------------------------------
man i wish people would think sometimes...
-------------------------------------------------------
I wish too I wish too...
I would like a friend of you wrote the following questions on a sheet of paper and ask them to you. You will have to answer as quick as you can with the word you think about. You arent allowed to read it before answering ok? and dont forget to report that to me! ;-)
what do you do in your life?
history?
political?
Highschool?
student?
sciences?
history?
research?
colour?
patriot?
foreigners?
importation?
exportation?
language?
violence?
Whats better : If a real american protestant believer killed an integrist Afghanistan or if the integrist kill a real protestant believer?
energy?
tv?
channel?
fken?
France?
-------------------------------------
be careful there is a trap ;-)
-------------------------------------
how in the world would that be insulting to them if i said wouldn\'t understand? do you really expect everyone or even a majority of the people in iraq to speak english? do you expect everyone or a majority of the people in a country to speak more than their native language? how in the world would that be rascist? that\'s just... well i dont really know what to call it because i dont understand how you came up with that idea.
--------------------------------------
now you are insulting your own intelligence lol but its nice to see you are kidding with yourself. I like people who dont think they are serious everytime. It\'s a rare quality! I hope you would keep it.
-------------------------------------------
really do you have any idea what you are talking about?? nothing i understand from you (btw, your english is improving from what i can tell, either that or im just getting smarter ) sites any specific examples or shows any example of anything that happened in real life... it just seems to me that this is what you fantasize (spelling?) america to be... or is that what you are doing?
-----------------------------------------
I like when American save the world :
Japan, China, North Korea, Cuba, Congo, Perou, Laos, Vietnam, Cambodge, Grenada, Libya, El Salvadores, Nicaragua, Panama, Iraq, Somalia, Bosnia, Soudan, Yougoslavia, Afghanistan, Kosovo
(I missed one or two countries) want to thank you.
-> 8 millions death (60 years -> 22 bombed countries ... yeah I missed one)
this! This is a list of countries which are ready to thank you like Iraq has to do... I would like you to realize you have ennemies in each countries of this list. Thanks to your country.
------------
@black rose: what was the point of your last thread? everyone could have read almost exactly what you said in fken\'s post. you could have just said \"i agree with fken except for this one part\" much simpler
------------
I think Black Rose is a guy who think (to quote your expression)... And he isnt proud to be american when he think about what his country did. But I want to advice him that everybody can change everything, you just need to believe in it and do your best to help the others especially the poor people. Im sure you can do something especially in the USA. Dont let your country because of dumb people ;-)
---------------------------
@fken also btw, you need to learn when i\'m being sarcastic/making a sad attempt at being funny. for example, the thing about british being nice, that was a joke, even though im sure they are very great people :D
----------------------------
Off course I knew you were joking... :rolleyes:
-
Man whats with all this anti-countryism.
When I take over the world Im gonna stick giant motors on all the continents and crash em togeather to make one huge new continent named Ara. And the only country in Ara will be, Ara.
So there goes all the wars in the world except the civil ones. :P
Now, on a more sirous note, Fken you gotta stop having such typical veiws of the \"american\". I hate the war and I hate Bush, but God bless America because I can say that freely and openly.
Stop steriotyping the American because guess what, as much as you think about this war and are opposed to it, we think about it and oppose it 100 times more because we started it and our men are there dieing for no reason. Not to mention the other countries that also joined in...
-
Originally posted by Efflixi Aduro
Now, on a more sirous note, Fken you gotta stop having such typical veiws of the \"american\". I hate the war and I hate Bush, but God bless America because I can say that freely and openly.
I know that a lot of american dont like Bush... But in fact you vote for him! Ive an american friend who learnt bush reelection here in france. He said \"It\'s a shame for united states\" and even he was too disapointed and said some bad things about USA I dont remember. I like him because he is intelligent and its nice to speak with him because he is logical and dont say he has the best behaviours (he doesnt judge mine I dont judge his behaviours, its perfect).
And in fact Im not really believing in stereotypes... I just read your reactions when I say something to verify the stereotypes... and really no one but Black rose seems to think about what their country is doing. What annoy me is that he/she must feel bad. I know what pessimism is. Im known as a man who dont believe in humanity. I even dont feel really french. I meant I wont be proud because Im french. Why? it would be silly! France is beautiful but a lot of things here arent like I want... And my neighbourghood doesnt look like me... They believe in everything the tv is saying, they like trash tv program. I dont watch tv anymore. I dont need it. And since I dont watch it I react differently. Some choice of my neighbourghood look so illogic sometimes... and some other things looks clearlier. Maybe Im wrong but I think tv controlled my mind sometimes. Now when Im in front of a tv and whatch at the news I realize quickly its not objective. I get every strange phrase like \"now you would see a program which will show you why you will vote yes\". The ads are illogic : some kind of humour. in fact, since I dont watch tv I dont need a new product, I dunno who is the latest new famous in fashion singer, I needed 3 weeks to know a rover was on mars and it wasnt a problem... But there are problems I swear you that if you dont watch your tv you could contradict the mass mind especially about a war in Iraq for example. And some people could look at you strangely (war in Iraq is an example for USA-citizens).
If I speak about my president or prime minister everybody will say \"It\'s a poor lier\" but we vote for him! If you speak about equality there is no problem, there is no more racism but once you say an arabic is better than you people shout its impossible...
Europa is happy to see Africa like it is because, like one of my friend said to me, if Africa had a real chance to trade (Im speaking about fair trade), Africa would be best than Europa thanks to their minerals, oil and other product. Everything is there thats why Europa went there to colonize...
But I didnt want to made stereotype because if you knew me Eflixi you would know I everytime defend the point of view which is undefended.
You tell me Palestinien are the best in the Israel/Palestine conflict I would defend the Israelien. You say the opposite I will defend the others. You would be objective then I would agree.
Here I felt aggressed like if people wanted to be right absolutly. So once someone tell me something subjective, sometimes I use stereotypes to contradict. I am able to fell subjective opinions because it\'s amazingly unlogical for me. And I think it\'s unlogical for you too because I dont feel Im more intelligent than you.
Do you realize each time I was right and demonstrate it the one I contradict never agreed? It\'s amazing. It\'s more amazing when you look someone who contradict you by using your word without getting the meaning of these ones... For example, when Taurenthefirst said it\'s not insult anyone when you say they dont understand english... it made me laugh first but after... I was wondering if he was really kidding... because I said it would be insulting them if you said they cant understand it\'s for their wellness that american went to Iraq. Because they arent babies anymore.
You know, Efflixi, if I was American and if I wanted to defend my country the first thing I would do would be to contradict the one in my side who said silly things. Because it\'s bad for your image and then when you try to say something true you would be sure your argument will be depreciated...
I try to understand people, not especially Americans, but people who create poverty and suffering... I hoped you would defend your behaviours... you show me what patriotism is... thank you. But I dont think its a good image of America... In Europa it remind us the mistakes of our grand grand grand parents and it\'s not beautiful.
I spoke about this thread to one of my friend (objectively I hope). She wasnt in my mind for what I said about Bin Laden and I was forced to say it with another name because bin laden scare people... Once I explain my point of view (after 15minutes of intensive discussion) she agreed. But she was in my side with what I said about USA... and even she was more cynical... She went to USA and said me how it was. She said me that some streets in Philadelphia are still like in the western (no real pavement). I was astonished (she went to united state maybe 5 years ago)... For my french ideas its amazing to let poor people live in street like that. and even she was more cynical about USA and I wont tell you what she told me because it\'s not my ideas and if you are patriots you really would react badly.
But Efflixi, you spoke about stereotypes but the most of what I said werent stereotypes... Beverley hills exists. the 22 countries were bombed. Nuclear bomb has been tested in Japan. there is racism there (it\'s not only stereotypes a friend told me that, Michael Moore describe it in Bowling for Columbine ;-) ... but here im not objective cause when i watch at BFC I fund it not objective just by looking at the movie...), and so one... because here its 7:15 AM o clock and im tired -> sleep.
-
Bush is a dumbass and so are a lot of other people in this country but remember that just because bush is a dumbass it doesn\'t mean America is fighting the war.
Yes, poverty exists in the U.S. whou would have thought... WOW, the richest biggest bestes baddest strongest country ever has poor people in it.
Well, guess what. Every country has poor people in it. And your friend didn\'t really go to the best place if she wasn\'t looking for poor people.
Yes, Bverly Hills exists, I live like 30 mins away from it and I might live there if I make good money later if life. But, I mean, people just CHOSE to hate the U.S. without just reasons or support.
Just look at Iran during the Shah revolution. Iran was full of Us military bases and next thing you know, when the new power walks in, 1/2 of Iran hates the US and starts rioting on the streets saying death to the US because we wont let them kill an old man.
Secondly, if I say an arabic is better than me, nobody will care. No one here looks at arabic people as if they are terrorists.
Fken you can\'t really tell me about my own country when you havn\'t even visited. If you ever come to Los Angeles come find my house and I will show you the REAL usa. People are just trying to get through life as you are. No one stares at muslums or anything.
And I think, if anything, I should be critcizing your country and Euroupe.
I mean it, do people walk around saying \"screw the french because they don\'t like us\" here, NO. You know why? Because we are as opposed to this war and bush as you are. And when somone says freedom toast, people just laugh. Go to a Mac Donalds and oorder a freedom fries and they will look at you like you\'re nuts.
This whole, \"I feel sorry for the U.S. because you voted Bush back in.\" atitude has to change too. Do you think people voted for him just because he supports this war? No. They have their own reasons for voting for him.
And as I said before, why do you ever care about the U.S.? I mean, I don\'t go around saying screw the french or anything.
You do realize how narrow your views are to the US? VERY. All you know about is the war so tell me this.
The Atomic bomb on Japan. We had two choices. Send in our boys to fight the war until we won. Or, drop a bomb and end it in one day and save tens of thousands of lives. So, you tell me. Would it have been the better choice for us to go in, win, but lose 80,000 more men just so we don\'t use the big bad bomb? Yea, I don\'t think so.
The United States has gone into Europe and saved peoples asses so many times but all people care about is bush. I mean it, lets say some guy from mexico suddenly began taking over north and south America and France came in to help. How do you think the attidude in Fracne would be, ys, it would be a \"Why are we helping ze damn Americans.\"
While, if the opposite happend. And The U.S. had to go to war in Euroupe to help france and some other countrys so they wouldn\'t be taken over, how do you think the atitude here would be? Positive. Because if we ever go to Europe and help, it would be a selfless act. And it would be the same if France helped us. They would both be selfless. But, this current war isn\'t. And that\'s why theres protests here, because bush just wants oil.
And theres your difference. If the US fought a selfless war people would support it, just like in WWI and WWII, but, if a country like France or somthing fought a selfless war to help us people would be protesting their asses off their. And THAT is your difference.
Many people don\'t remember the suffering the American people have gone through to heplp other countries. What about Veitnam, or Korea. What did we have to gain it those wars? Nothing.
And yet, one Ideot president gets greedy and goes to war with Iraq for its oil and half of Europe goes anti-american on our asses.
-
I swear you my historian teachers told me the WW2 was about to be won. The Japanese were about to surrender when the bomb was dropped. Personnaly I feel thats strange to send the nuclear bomb at the end of the war. because if it was a way to save 80000 boys (80000 is a nice number. Is this number what you learnt at school? I yes, then if think you could wondering how people can teach so unprecize numbers). I remember what Truman said too because I listen to his declarations (broadcasted again) at the tv... I didnt need to listen to my historian teacher to feel he was hiding something. When you listn to him you feel he was lying! Once the two bombs were dropped Einstein was wondering what he has done by showing his results to the Americans. He was for the peace and didnt like the idea of participating in the construction of the Bomb A.
Nice to see that USA had nothing to win in Vietnam\'s war. I know I learnt something different but I dont exactly remember... it was geopolitical and I dont remember sorry
Why do you wanna live in Beverley Hills? It\'s a strange idea for me... Even if I know Ill earn a lot of money I wont live in a place like that personnaly...
Its strange that you invite me to visit LA cause I will visit a friend in Salt Lake. I know its a little far but I think ill accept your invitation Efflixi.
-
Both the Vietnam war and the Korean war were economically motivated. The U.S. had plenty of business interests in south east Asia that we wanted to protect.
Also, yes, WWII was about to end when we dropped the two bombs. It could have ended without the bombing.
I, personally, despise what Bush is doing to our country, and I can understand why other nation might despise us, though I think it is the wrong path.
Let me back up E.A. here. In Los Angeles, you can pretty much look and talk any way you want. There is not a lot of racism, though it exists. For a short time after the Twin Towers, there was some anti-muslim sentiment, but most of that is gone now. I live in a very diverse section of Los Angeles. My local grocery store is owned by a guy from India who loves the Houston Rockets, I have to speak Spanish to order food from my favorite local restaurant, the Thai restaurant requires pointing at them menu and my abosolute favorite watering hole is turning into a gay, actually lesbian, bar.
This is the sort of thing people in L.A. have come to expect. Around here, there is a lot of tolerance. However, if you drive just 30 minutes north to a place called Santa Clarita, it all changes. So E.A., we are sadly not the norm for the U.S. Try saying you voted for John Kerry in Thousand Oaks, or speak some spanish in Santa Barbara, you\'ll find a very different attitude.
This is probably the same story for all major metropolitan areas, except with slightly different ethnic mixes. It\'s the countryside where you find the closed-minded people that the rest of the world fears. But of course, when someone from France thinks of the U.S., they think of New York, New York, not Three Rivers, California. New York is a place where the majority of the population is in tune with the concerns of the Europeans and the rest of the world, whereas Three Rivers, CA is mostly backwater hillbillies who can barely read their large print bibles.
By the way, I drove through Beverly Hills this morning, as I do every morning. To be honest, the place is boring. The buildings are mostly new and everything is too clean. It has no character. Sure, it\'s a great tourist spot, but if you come to L.A. there are much better places to visit.
-
Originally posted by fken
Im known as a man who dont believe in humanity.
That\'s sad. I find humanity to be one of the few things worth believing in.
Originally posted by fken
Do you realize each time I was right and demonstrate it the one I contradict never agreed?
...
Here I felt aggressed like if people wanted to be right absolutly.
As I see it, you believe yourself to be the self-righteous keeper of the greater truth. ;)
Originally posted by fken
You joked with French history (I used wikipedia personaly :-D but Im sure an american will know MY country\'s history better than me... off course I knew you were joking)
( http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robespierre ) learn french or ask to a friend ;-)
After much cross-referencing through various online resources (including Wikipedia):
Robespierre\'s father, a lawyer, belonged to the \"noblesse de robe\" (nobility conferred because you are of a certain profession) and his mother was a brewer\'s daughter. She died when he was 6. Distressed by his wife\'s death, Robespierre\'s father wandered through Europe for 2 years before dying too. Robespierre was taken in by his maternal grandfather. He found solace in his studies and received a scholarship to study at the \"college Louis-le-Grand\" in Paris were he was one of the poorest and brightest student. (His two sisters were schooled in an establishment for girls living in poverty). After secondary school, he had to work while attending law school.
-
Louis Legrand isnt a normal highschool... and in the 18th century there was no real poor there... Will you tell me poor people get their baccalaureat? He was certainly poor in comparaison to the other pupils of Louis Le grand but not really poor... What are you saying? there was equality? Even today there is no equality!
I was sure you would say exactly what you just said. I dont know you but with you I fell like a foreteller. But it\'s not because you arent intelligent. I think you are intelligent but the problem is that you seems to be blind. Each time I will defend anything important to me Im sure I will find you on my way (off course Im refering to the post about the laptops where you said very objective things and off course this thread shows me what you are able to do).
Nada dont speak to me about objectivity : Bhudda or Black rose are more objective than you but I dont want to fall in the opposite side. If you want to prove me something be logical and prove it like a good demonstrator! Even EA is more objective than you. But I can understand why Americans could not be objective here: the subject is the american history. In France the french history is nice with Frenches. For example, Napoleon is a great emperor. But in fact Napoleon was a butcher! We learnt French revolution was the symbol of the Freedom. But in reality the poor stayed poor. The noble became famous officers in the army. and finally the rich stay rich. The priviledges were implicit. During the WW2 we dont speak really about the french crimes. We dont say Petain was already a famous extremist. You know what I learnt at school? Everyone were happy to see Petain in the french government. Off course we know it is a mistake. And I simply learnt that french were stupid in 1940. It really amuse me to read that. The population was stupid. Especially when you know that there were an order for german food ratio:
Germany first (off course)
France then
the others countries
In Poland, their food ratio were incredibly low...
So if I use my brain Im able to tell you that Frenches were happy to see a pact with Germany just because of their individualism.
But what school learnt to us isnt true. The real historian know that. In History in my last year of highschool my teacher said me: \"I will speak a little about Communism because even if it s no more in the national education program, it\'s important\". Off course he hasnt enough of time and he didnt speak a lot about communism. Just wonder why, Nada!
But if I can understand the non objectivity of the americans I cannot understand yours.
I know when Im true but I never said I didnt analize what people said. However, I wont believe each person who says something. Because each person says a specific thing. And a lot of data are contradicting the previous. Look Taurenthefirst who contradict Black rose and Buddha who contradicts Efflixi Aduro.
What\'s amazing with you, Nada, is that you dont contradict the others, just me. Are they everytime right? Am I everytime wrong? For example, can you quote an example about school shooting in France? Now Im really listening to you Nada! Your silence is a shame!
-
Originally posted by fken
Louis Legrand isnt a normal highschool... and in the 18th century there was no real poor there... Will you tell me poor people get their baccalaureat? He was certainly poor in comparaison to the other pupils of Louis Le grand but not really poor... What are you saying? there was equality? Even today there is no equality!
I don\'t know how far down the social ladder people have to be for you to have some consideration for them. Anyway, that was not what I set to do about Robespierre. All the resources I\'ve found which mentionned his childhood and adolescence said that he was poor or that he was reduced to poverty.
Originally posted by fken
But what school learnt to us isnt true. The real historian know that.
Then you\'ll be happy to learn that I have no experience in the French schooling system as far as primary school and highschool are concerned.
Originally posted by fken
Your silence is a shame!
I should feel ashamed, should I?
Mwahahahaha... fken have you not understood that I am your nemesis, come on Earth with the sole purpose of making you rue the day you were born?... mwahahahaha
More seriously, fken I\'ve got nothing personal against you.
Now, I pondered if I should really answer you or if it was spam-baiting on your part. A PM would have done just fine. But hey, I\'ll drop (some) of my usual self-restraint and jump in.
Why do I contradict you personally? First, because you are the one who started the thread and the one who seems to be the most extreme in the opinions he defends. Second, because you already contradict the other posters, I don\'t feel it\'s necessary for me to do so + often I find there is some truth in what they say. Please do notice too that I\'ve tried to stay clear of the America business and I\'m tackling other issues. There have been instances where I found you were (partially in some cases) right: CEO retirement benefits for instance, or outsourcing or French TV selling brain space to fizzy-drinks companies or what happened to French women who had a relationship with a German during WW2, and I found your PM on nuclear fusion very interesting.
Originally posted by fken
Are they everytime right? Am I everytime wrong? For example, can you quote an example about school shooting in France? Now Im really listening to you Nada!
I don\'t know of any \"school shootings\" in France. You\'ll recall what Foresteer wrote:
Originally posted by Foresteer
There are european school shootings too.. In fact even with all that \"gun control\" europe has more gun crime then we do (sources Wall Street Journal AND Deutch Welle *see American AND German newspapaers agree*)
You see that Foresteer mentionned Europe. Also, I haven\'t got the stats besides me so I don\'t feel I have to butt in and, as far as I\'m concerned, Deutsch Welle is a reliable source.
I have contradicted you when I thought you
a) generalized too much,
b) had your facts wrong
Otherwise I expressed my opinion. Do note that I take care to sprinkle around expressions such as \"it is my belief\", \"in my opinion\", \"I think\". I\'m sorry if you felt I forced my opinion upon you.
Now, I admire the fact that you feel concerned for the environment and that you are determined to let the voiceless have their say. These are lofty ideals indeed.
However, I guess that I will remain at loggerheads with you as to the causes and means to solve certain problems given that I consider myself a moderate.
So let us at least agree to disagree, shall we? No hard feelings.
-
1.) I never said that Iraq should feel thankful for America buying its\' oil. What I said was: You would think if Americans liked boycotting so much, we would boycott those that hate us (ie: Saudi Arabian populace).
2.) I\'m outta here, this is getting bloody ridiculous.
-
Originally posted by Monketh
2.) I\'m outta here, this is getting bloody ridiculous.
you\'re right. I think the same thing. if someone want to continue no problem but Im oughta here too.
-
I have been waiting for a good topic to come up so that i could rant and rave.
For one I would like to ask what particular event happened that made you so angrey fken?
I am an American and I love what America stood for. America was a place that stood for Freedom (Yes we had slavery and we still supressed woman but it was a good foundation) and Individualism. Dont get me wrong, I am not much for individualism myself. In truth I am more of a Socialist and I hate capitalism. Capitalism fuels Globalization/ Americanization. And Globalization destroys culture, exploits workers, and puts those mom and pop businesses out of Business and that is not mentioning how it hurts the environment.
There are plenty of problems, and I am not sure how to stop it. What can we do about these injustices??? That is the question. Really, I am not sure if these countries can stop the exploitation until they progress. Even after the USA is no longer the only super power... someone else will exploit. Its the basic Lexus and the Olive Tree arguement. I feel that we have to fight for the Olive Tree even though it may be futile.
And yes, Americans are extremely afraid of terrorism right now. The masses are afraid enough to hand over their civil liberties that we fought so hard to get long ago. In alot of ways, America scares me. I am not sure how far this will go. Pretty soon I may be moving to Europe :). We are dangerous. We can wage war on nearly anyone and no one stands up to us to try and stop us. The stupidity of it is that we are only making it worse for ourselves. For being in Iraq, terrorism will grow. We fight to destroy it but it cannot be destroyed until the injustices that we discussed earlier are addressed. These people are doing what they feel they must. Now, I would not call the War in Iraq a genocide by any means however. The US is overstepping its boundaries and we will pay for it.
But no one can play inocent here. It is all of our faults. The Global North takes advantage of the Global South. And world powers have always exploited who they could: France, Britain, Germany, Russia, and the United States have all made huge mistakes. But it is not a time to dwell on the past. How can we change the future?
-
But it is not a time to dwell on the past. How can we change the future?
i belief we cant - the future will change its self. its the principal of cause and effect - every action provokes a reaction. the reaction nowadays seems to be terrorism. even if the initial so called terrorist attack on the WTC was at least supported by the force which claims to fight terror, alot of people in suppressed countries find terrorsim to be a more and more valuable measure to fight the oppression by the western \'civilisation\'.
you named it, american citizens are loosing more and more their freedoms, willingly. this will stop when the public realizes thats its their beloved country fault that terrorist target the usa. what will happen then? many collegues of mine including me are sure that sooner or later america will face another civil war. the effect will be rather dramatic, for the economic and political damage will be immense. this will be the point where the usa will have to care about its inner-political situation and loose interest on foreign countries.
the so called \'new world order\' bush senior wanted to establish back in the 90\'s may look quite different than they dreamed of. in my personal vision of a future \'new world order\' there wont be a corporation driven america plundering the world ressources in the name of democracy. everything will settle down and the great power which america is obviously not able to handle will be redistributed among the world.
-
I hope the future will shape itself. A pattern that I see (And I am not sure if I have ever heard/read this) is that when a super power falls off they seem to care less about the outside world and no longer feel the need for Imperialism. Then this nation begins to focus on itself. Basically the way I view Europe now. Social programs explode and overall this nation would become more peaceful. But how do we stop the process? As long as the process exists we will be having this same discussion about a different super power. America itself is not the problem... it is the system.
-
Originally posted by Valbrandr
Pretty soon I may be moving to Europe
Never forget injustice is a french word
--------------------------------------------------
If you wanna change something you just need to \"educate\" each others : to force them to think about what\'s around them and not to believe in everything the news say...
here in France, journalists spoke (and keep on speaking) a lot about terrorism... implicitly saying terrorist = Muslim. I dont think they wanted to do it but they did it.
You know... Muslim or not Muslim, human is human : I cant imagine that a guy who believe deeply in his religion in our country, is able to become a kamikaze... There are harder and deeper facts behind the religion. And today Muslims are scared of beeing pointed like terrorist...
Today the french journalists (maybe in the rest of the world too... I dunno) realize their mistakes...
So they are implicitly precizing : terrorist are coranic schools pupils...
But I wont forget that on the same channel, just after the news, the meteo flash said \"la fin de la semaine, ce sera le week end\" : The end of the week, it will be the week end... and I wont forget the chairman of the first french channel said his job consists to sell brainwashed brains to advertising company (ie Coca Cola) on a public channel...
What I mean is that no one here seems to know what the terrorists really want... and I think that this fact is the real danger...
There are two kind of terrorism : the legal and the illegal :
-> illegal ones are the 9/11\'s ones
-> legal ones are the \"there are weapons of mass destruction in Iraq\"\'s ones
In each cases, US citizen were scared just to force them to react like people wanted they react. They were manipulated... And in fact, its not only the us citizen but the whole world.
----------------------------------------
What\'s strange with all what you said Valbrandr is that you used to use the pronoun \"we\"... I think like you but you are using the pronoun \"we\" and I, I use the pronoun \"I\"... Once external countries reproach something to US citizen, US citizen say \"we\"... It\'s like what scared me in the previous post... What I conclude with these threads is that the big majority of american people defend their country blindly against the external opinion (Bush reelection is an example / or the opinion toward the Iraq war)... There is a real nationalism in USA and if it keeps on happening like that, there could be serious damages for everyone (violence opinion could increase dangerously toward the USA).
-
There is a real nationalism in USA and if it keeps on happening like that, there could be serious damages for everyone (violence opinion could increase dangerously toward the USA).
That is already happening. Have you ever been to Ameriica fken? Every person in America (and their brother so it seems) has an American flag outside their door. The National Anthem is breed into us and yeah we are brainwashed in plenty of ways...
\"You are the greatest nation in the world.\"
\"We are the greatest nation in the world\"
\"We are the ............................................\"
Many, in one way or another, are already turning against America because of the selfish/ just plain stupid things we do. However, the only people who will pay this price is America and its allies, ie Bombings in Britain. And I use we because it a way it is all of our faults for what is happening. Only the people can stop what is happening. But in America there is this dumb two party system that separates everyone and everything. It creates two sides on every issues. Against Abortion = Rebublican, Pro Choice = Democrat. We get so caught up here in taking sides and not looking at the bigger picture.
Getting into how this can be fixed though... that is a loaded question. I guess it depends on who you are. Some think that \"Bringing them to justice\" is the only way. I say that by handling this situation in that way will only make it worse. Terrorism will spread. More Innocent people will die. But lets be serious though, the war in Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism because in actuallity there was little terrorist activity there before this war. Which leads to the root of the problem. Why did we go in there? It has a lot more to do with oil then they want to say. America only try to \"Help\" nations that have precious resources. You wont see us in Africa anytime soon.. well I guess we will take some more of their diamonds. But only a few countires in Africa have oil... and not much.
America thinks to much about money and too little about international law and basically just doing what is right. I would go into it further but I am tired now :)
-
I dont think every people in USA are completly brainwashed. Im not a specialist but Im sure its not the truth when I read the posts from Buddha or you (and someone else but I dont want to search...). The fact you are able to criticize the acts of your nation shows that you arent completely brainwashed.
I think that our country (not only USA but every industrialy developped countries) behave sometimes like legal terrorists...
1) brainwashing
2) endoctrinment
3) make people suffer
4) have the feeling to be protected by the god or by the truth
\"God bless America\" <-> \"may Allah be with us\"
but occidental methods are sometimes even worse... What\'s worse than dropping a bomb and killing people like that? Maybe simply looking at people dying because they are hungry while you are burning your production because of economical subject...
I think you dont realize that Africa is one of the most rich place in the world... Look at European history (France\'s history for example): we were there to steal their products...
USA said one day that South America \"belong to them\" and Europa thought Africa belong to Europa (maybe did they say that...). It\'s \"our\" relationship and I dont think USA wanna lost their almost good relashionship with Europa for countries where people are killing each others for a little bit of bread...
What\'s really amazing is that these countries could become rich very quickly... if only occidental countries wanted to allow them to earn money...
-> Ill post something about London Brazilian murder... something I fund very interesting and I need the point of view of every country (only the official point of view of your country please). look in Hyddla plaza
-
What\'s strange with all what you said Valbrandr is that you used to use the pronoun \"we\"... I think like you but you are using the pronoun \"we\" and I, I use the pronoun \"I\"... Once external countries reproach something to US citizen, US citizen say \"we\"... It\'s like what scared me in the previous post... What I conclude with these threads is that the big majority of american people defend their country blindly against the external opinion (Bush reelection is an example / or the opinion toward the Iraq war)... There is a real nationalism in USA and if it keeps on happening like that, there could be serious damages for everyone (violence opinion could increase dangerously toward the USA).
I think the we comes from self association. I commonly say things like \"We Americans do not speak any language other than english.\" As an association that sometimes comes along because we cannot deny that there are problems with being raised in america that many people just don\'t get out of. No matter how we try to think from an outside perception we cannot completely dissociate ourselves from it because we are intertwined into it.