PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: DaveG on June 07, 2005, 09:39:03 pm
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Well, we\'ve got this carkarass in the Death Realm, but it\'s just another monster. Since this is the underworld and all, I think he should have \"mirrored\" stats. The stats of the person it\'s attacking determine the apparent stats for the carkarass. Thus, it would require all who wish to be resurrected to put some effort in. :P And, it\'s not like dying against it would be a big deal...
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\"Ugh, fell off a cliff and died. Gotta get back to the guys!\"
Carkarass attacks person.
\"Gah!\"
person dies.... in the death realm.
When I... \"die\", I just RP like I was knocked out, or hit so hard that it took a few minutes to get back up. I don\'t like ressurection in RP because then your character has nothing to risk losing when getting in a fight. But, of course, that\'s just my opinion.
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Originally posted by Uloim
I don\'t like ressurection in RP because then your character has nothing to risk losing when getting in a fight.
That\'s one of the reasons why I suggested this. It would make effort be required to get out of the Death Realm. In the future, the devs said they wanted a bigger penalty, as well. I think a big experience loss or something is the idea.
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I agree there should be a penalty. I also think there should, even now, be a penalty for using /spawn, like loss of rewards or loot, but not loss of weapons or glyphs.
Another question is, should the penalty be the same for PvP as dying from an NPC?
In PvP, there is always the opportunity to choose. The NPC could be a choice but it could also be an unwarranted attack with no chance to opt out.
I do not think it should be the same penalty, but what would be the solution?
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I like the idea of losing experience, but... how could that work in a game like this? Would you lose some experience in EACH skill, or just a random one, or just your highest one? Maybe you should lose all of your current un-spent practice points when you die.
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I guess you\'d lose a point or two in your highest skill and whatever skill you were using when you died. (or at least one vaguely associated with it)
Die fighting a monster => lose strength and/or magic
Die fighting a player => lose strength, charisma, and/or intelligence (hey, it was your own dumb fault for accepting the challenge...)
Die while in the Death Realm => nothing; that would be annoying
Die falling off a cliff => lose endurance and/or climbing
Die in a cave in => lose mining
Die from drowning => lose swimming
Die from posoning => lose herbalism
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The death realm will be huge and that will be punishment enough.
Supposedly, eventually you will go before a \"council\" of gods and you can either give them a magical item or be transported to the death realm (that takes about 15 mins to get out of)
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I dont like the idea fo making getting out of DR harder.
How about lefting body with all items on the ground in place of death ? Player would have to run back from DR to the body to get back all items.
Lets suppose a group of 4 players will unite to fight a monster in distant location from Hydlaa plaza. Spawn time of a monster is 5minutes (five times slower than normal) and your time get back from DR to fighting place is 15 minutes.
After 20 minutes fighting with monster (5 monsters) one or maybe two players will probably die - the weaken group have to fight with monster and probability of death for rest of group is rising. - they probably die before rest of party come back - and the circle is closed this way
Of course players can wait for those who died.
(hmm people looking one to another, looking at clocks err. azure sun ;) - do we wait little more, do we fight or do we let another group get out monster, who is apparently also very bored.)
The group also can be bigger - it will not suffer that much from loosing a player or two, however from my experience (EverQuest) parties bigger than 4-6 players usually are made of guild members.
I would like more to get back to fighting place back to get all my items and arm again to fight with group,
than getting ressurected in DR and have to fight alone (with all my items - stamina exhaustion!) my way back to group to fight with them
Besides dead bodies of players around moster would indicate that this moster is really dangerous ;) - ups someone died here ... where is the danger... *looking around*...
IMO: loosing exp/pp/skills - YES - death IS something u have to care to not happen
(skills less likely - is still is hard to develop them)
making the time to get back from DR bigger - NO
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That \"running back to claim your items\" sounds too much like certain other games.
Imagine if I went deep into the dungeon, and found some new kind of monster. I start to attack it, but quickly discover that it was too strong. I\'m dead. Ok, so I\'m not strong enough to go down in that part of the dungeon, and should probably train in the sewers instead... And now you want me to go down the dungeon to get my stuff back? The dungeon that I shouldn\'t go into?
And what\'s going to happen when I get there? I pick up a couple of my items, but before grabbing all of them, the same monster starts attacking me again...
I would like to see an expanded death realm. It\'s really cool looking, it\'s fun exploring (the few minutes it takes to explore), and expanding it would make it even more interesting. Make a maze, some intelligent challenges, instead of running or killing challenges. Killing stuff is already too important IMHO, the only alternative way of getting progression points is mining, and getting them that way takes way longer, so unless one has infinite sparetime, one is practically forced to become a killer.
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The situation you are describing would only happend if monster would have \'aggro zone\' in wich the body would by lying. So far i spotted only few monsters with aggro zone and i could run away from them easly. To get the body back you would need only a second or two (this should be programmed as picking all the stuff by clicking on the body , not picking your separate items from the body) - then you could escape from dangerous zone. (And dont wander there utill properly prepared ;) )
however think about the \"emotion shiver\" while recovering your body or sneaking trough dangerous places - this is something that really gives the boost to the game.
Besides in one of MMORPG games i was played, there was a profession - a Necromante wich one could summon your body to you - so the problem of getting body out of dangerous zones was minimal.
The idea of expanding DR for exploring is good as long as i dont need to get trough mazes/mosters/other annoyinances to get back to group wich is waiting for me
(would u like to be forced exploring the same area after your 1xx death ?)
I think trainers for dark way should be positioned right in Death Realm - there is no better place for them.
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Going back to your body - No!
What if you fall out of the world? What if you die in an unreachable place (fall off a cliff, die to a group of monsters that guard your corpse, die in a place where your body falls through the ground or into a rock or something.)?
Now that I think about it, making a larger death realm would be the best idea. I mean, you appear in Hydlaa anyway, which is punishment enough if you were on the other side of the world!
Losing skills would be too hard to program and would annoy too many people. Losing money just isn\'t challenging enough, especially if you put your money in a storagae area (when implemented). Going back to your body - once again, no.
Aye to the larger death realm! :)
(Nice idea for the dark way trainers, by the way. I like it! ;))
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Aye. I am all for expanding the DR. Furthermore, the place you end up when leaving it should be random at least. IIRC it is planned to have certain exits in the DR that link to certain places in the WOTL. I think this is nice, but one may still give this a random element: some links might be unstable or depend on time or other cycles in where they lead.
Also, if you die, you could also be put into a random place in the DR.
Furthermore, when you enter the DR, you should have exactly 1 HP. That way, people wouldn\'t keep duelling in the DR.
I think the DR needs to be a lot harder to get out, and it should take a lot of time in any case.
Death is something that should be avoided, and most definitely is not somthing to shrug off.
I concur to that the challenges must not be fighting-only. Maybe there should, in the end, be options for everyone, like riddles, bribes, fights, sneaking, etc.. Noone should have to slip OOC to get out of the DR, but this will obviously not be there for a long time.
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Originally posted by Seytra
Death is something that should be avoided, and most definitely is not somthing to shrug off.
I think this should be one of the top 5 principles when designing a good RPG, in order to encourage RP and discourage power-gaming. Too many games give in to arguments of \"annoyance\" or \"inconvenience\" and they make death absolutely trivial. I loved Everquest, but I despised the death rules. With a large enough raid force you could kill anything by \"Zerging\". (For those who don\'t know, this is a cyclical process whereby a legion of clerics resurrect the dead raid members who then run head-long into the fight again. You could easily die 30 times over the course of fight. Where\'s the realism there?)
I concur with many of the ideas mentioned thus far:
1. Random spawn points in the DR
2. Reduced stats upon spawning in DR
3. Exiting the DR should be difficult and/or time consuming
I would also add the following idea:
Because any game has a learning curve, I feel there needs to be some compromise on the realism in regards to newbie death. In principle, I think the death penalties should be reduced for the newbies because some newbies will die a *lot* while they try to figure out the mechanics of the game. I would suggest that newbies spawn in a static location right near the exit portal. As you gain more and more experience, your DR spawn points are placed further and further from an exit portal.
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If there is some way of storing trias and posessions, I think the loss of a certain percentage of trias or posessions on-hand would not be unfair, in addition.
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Ok... ok... losing stats via death could be annoying and hard to implement fairly (Especially because the consensus is that all generic experience pools are a bad idea, so there\'s no simple thing to deduct from.), but some kind of permanent loss should exist. If death, itself, isn\'t going to be permanent (which is already a contradiction of terms) something else has to be. An alternative way to tackle the stat loss, would be to only lose a small percentage of the last few stats you\'ve advanced.
Money and/or some item loss should be possible, at far least to death my mugging. Though, it would be a major pain to lose stuff all the time, and it doesn\'t make much sense, anyway.
Originally posted by dclose
death penalties should be reduced for the newbies because some newbies will die a *lot* while they try to figure out the mechanics of the game
Good point. If losses are restricted to recently gained stats, then death penalties wouldn\'t affect them much. They are new, and thus wouldn\'t have gained that much experience yet. Because their stat\'s haven\'t gained much, a small percentage of this small amount wouldn\'t be that big of a deal. (even if they died allot) We could also have a grace period of lossless deaths before a certain number of points achieved since joining.
and... back to my original topic... The stupid Carkarass :P
The whole reason I brought up the Death Realm was to propose a purpose to the carkarass\' existence. \"Mirrored\" stats would make him an equally worthy opponent for everyone. (and no, there shouldn\'t be a death penalty in the Death Realm) It would make the DR more than just a maze designed to tick you off for dying.
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Ahh yeah, i will add some from me about \'The stupid Carkarass\' just not to see this topic dead :P
I think making Carkarass just a bug wich you have to squash to get out of DR as .... well it doesnt speak to me well.
How about Carkarass would be something like the sphinks - asking random questions about the game (or about something else) to the players who want to get out of DR (not the ones who wish to explore DR) and fighting with him when player answers wrong (with player mirrored stats ofcourse ;) ).
(MUhaha now this is weird idea , you can flame me as you want , i dont care because im in DR now ;)
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I dont think loosing stats are a good idea. It is hard enough to go back all the way back to action...
I like the idea of losing experience, but... how could that work in a game like this?
Perhaps you could loose a certain percentage of progression points (at last something they could be used for ;) ).
How about Carkarass would be something like the sphinks - asking random questions about the game (or about something else) to the players who want to get out of DR (not the ones who wish to explore DR) and fighting with him when player answers wrong (with player mirrored stats ofcourse ).
I agree. This is certainly a good idea... But what if the char dies in this fight?
Perhaps we could integrate the idea about random transportations out of the DR at this point.
The DR could be a link between the different levels of Yliakum. So if you win, you can choose which portal you want to take (without a random factor), but if you loose, the programm will choose a portal which will definitely not be the shortest way back to where you died.
To make it even harder to answer the questions asked, your communication to the other players could be blocked. (\"You are dead, you cannot do that now\")
Also, if you die, you could also be put into a random place in the DR.
What about an individual chamber generated by the game for every player extra who dies? In this chamber the char has to face the carkarass without chance to escape and without getting help from other players. If the char wins, he is beeing transported to a defined location in the DR and can choose which portal he wants... if not it happens like I stated abouve. In the DR itself should it be impossible to fight with other players.
Supposedly, eventually you will go before a \"council\" of gods and you can either give them a magical item or be transported to the death realm (that takes about 15 mins to get out of)
Good idea. How about giving a magical item or enough money to skip the fight with the carkarass and go directly into the DR? One should not be able to skip the whole \"DR-experience\" though.
I think trainers for dark way should be positioned right in Death Realm - there is no better place for them.
Agreed!
Besides in one of MMORPG games i was played, there was a profession - a Necromante wich one could summon your body to you - so the problem of getting body out of dangerous zones was minimal.
But as I see it, the whole body is transported to the DR (by the god of the DR), not only the spirit. Considering that, a necromancer would have to \"teleport\" you out of the deathrealm.
Since it is not restricted where the necro is, any necromancer could resurrect you at any point in the world...
That would be a serious problem, since you dont know who is resurrecting you. So my proposal to implement even so necromancing:
Defined places (where it is easier for the necro to manifest) where a char has to be in order to be resurrected. With this, only people who want to be resurrected go to these areas and take the risk to be resurrected by an unknown necro ^^
If you have the skill to resurrect yourself, you go also to such an area and teleport yourself to the point you died.
Bye,
amogorkon
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The Carkarass is in the DR!! :D
Its pretty weak... but its there!
bye,
amogorkon
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Originally posted by amogorkon
The Carkarass is in the DR!! :D
I\'m quite aware of that... that\'s why I made this thread...
Originally posted by amogorkon
In the DR itself should it be impossible to fight with other players.
This is Hell, in the litteral sense. You should be able to kill at random as far as I\'m concerned! :P Teleporting to random spots upon entrance/death would reduce the risk of newbie torturing...
The carkarass as a Sphinx idea is a good one. Definitely worth considering.
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I\'m quite aware of that... that\'s why I made this thread...
Hm, I never realised it till now :)
This is Hell, in the litteral sense.
Do you refer to \"Dantes Inferno\" or another religious imagination?
You should be able to kill at random as far as I\'m concerned!
But what would happen to the killed? A griefer who does sucide to torture newbies in the DR isnt such a great scenario... :-/
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Originally posted by amogorkon
Originally posted by DaveG
This is Hell, in the litteral sense.
Do you refer to \"Dantes Inferno\" or another religious imagination?
The \"Death Realm\" is at far least inspired by \"Hell\". It\'s got skulls, bone bridges, and everything... You can\'t claim no relation.
Originally posted by amogorkon
Originally posted by DaveG
You should be able to kill at random as far as I\'m concerned!
But what would happen to the killed? A griefer who does sucide to torture newbies in the DR isnt such a great scenario... :-/
The DR is supposed to be a deterrent to dying. Let the place be annoying as possible. It shouldn\'t be nice. In fact, while we\'re on the subject of annoyances, let\'s kill two birds with one stone: Let\'s banish 1337 speakers to the DR. The living get rid of them, and the dead are tortured by idiots!
\"|=3@|2 |\\/|3, |=0|2 1 @|\\/| +|-|3 [)3\\/1|!\"
(using the Ultra-1337 translator (http://home.no.net/hellshl/main/translate.html)...)
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And how do you get out of the dr when you get constantly killed?
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Originally posted by DaveG
The DR is supposed to be a deterrent to dying. Let the place be annoying as possible. It shouldn\'t be nice. In fact, while we\'re on the subject of annoyances, let\'s kill two birds with one stone: Let\'s banish 1337 speakers to the DR. The living get rid of them, and the dead are tortured by idiots!
That is absolutely brilliant!
Originally posted by amogorkon
And how do you get out of the dr when you get constantly killed?
Here are a few suggestions:
1. Log out and try again later
2. Create a new character
3. Pretend it is groundhog\'s day and have fun with it
4. Ask a friend to come join you and beat the crap about of him
5. Just walk away from the computer. He\'ll quickly get bored if you are non-responsive. It\'s a power trip, and if you aren\'t begging for mercy then it\'s no fun for him.
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I hope your suggestions are not serious... with that newbies will leave faster than coming to PS...
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maybe carkarass could guard the portal to somewhere else, but not to hydlaa, definitely not to hydlaa.
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I agree fully that torturing people in the DR would be bad. If you appeared in a random spot each time, and the DR was much bigger, the risk would be minimized.
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I agree fully that torturing people in the DR would be bad. If you appeared in a random spot each time, and the DR was much bigger, the risk would be minimized.
Hm... What about griefers who are waiting at the exits or at the NPCs (necros)?
I think the base of the idea isnt that bad, but there are some problems to solve...
cu,
amogorkon
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Originally posted by amogorkon
Hm... What about griefers who are waiting at the exits or at the NPCs (necros)?
Wow... no offense, but you\'re being paranoid. :P (then again, some people...) If you\'re that worried about newbie torturing, we could have a kill limit. One person can\'t kill another person more than once, while in the DR. So after a \"kill\" (well... they\'re already dead...), the victim is immune to the assailants attacks until they both leave the DR and come back again. This allows for a more chaotic DR, but compensates for some of the foreseeable problems.
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Wow... no offense, but you\'re being paranoid.
Lol :D I`m not paranoid, I?m just imaginening the different scenarios :)
If you\'re that worried about newbie torturing, we could have a kill limit. One person can\'t kill another person more than once, while in the DR.
Sounds good :) ... But how to explain that in RP? ?(
see you,
amogorkon
Edit: What about a \"helping hand\" from a god which gives an defensive-aura a specified time?
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I don\'t think experience loss is a good idea, imagine a griefer who takes a target and kills him/her repetitively to get his/her stats down as much as possible. It would be really annoying to have a char with 1str...
I think the best solution is to make thee DR a maze with a \"dark town\" that can only bee reached through thorough exploration. there will be dark trainers and generally dark side people. What I best like about this solution is the guild war scenario, say you have 2 guilds fighting one another, when one dude dies, rather than poofing back in 3 seconds and rejoining the fight he has to go through the DR and go back.
I don\'t think it should take 15 mins to get out though. 15 mins is a LONG time wasted. 5-7 mins sounds ok to me
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I don\'t think experience loss is a good idea, imagine a griefer who takes a target and kills him/her repetitively to get his/her stats down as much as possible. It would be really annoying to have a char with 1str...
\"Experience\" is for progression points, not stats. I don`t like loosing stats neither.
I think the best solution is to make thee DR a maze with a \"dark town\" that can only bee reached through thorough exploration.
Cool! :D
I don\'t think it should take 15 mins to get out though. 15 mins is a LONG time wasted. 5-7 mins sounds ok to me
That is why I suggested the thingy with the individual chamber and the choice to skip the fight with the carkarass. If you want to be back as quick as possible, pay for it! You pay, you get to the portal which leads back to action. If you dont want to pay, you have to fight...
Before I suggested to random teleport the looser out of the DR far away from the point he died. That could be modified: In both cases, victory and defeat you are teleported into the DR. But: If you win, you will be teleported near the portal which leads back to action (perhaps the same spot where you get teleported when you skip the fight), if you loose you will be teleported far away. With a big DR with a whole city in it that would the best solution, I think :)
And with a carkarass which strength adapts to the opponent, that would be a fair fight.
amogorkon
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Originally posted by amogorkon
\"Experience\" is for progression points, not stats. I don`t like loosing stats neither.
Aren\'t PP gonna be shot anyway? levels doesn\'t sound any better than stats, right now the massive gap is between money and PP, how ironic would it be for it to become PP to money?
That is why I suggested the thingy with the individual chamber and the choice to skip the fight with the carkarass. If you want to be back as quick as possible, pay for it! You pay, you get to the portal which leads back to action. If you dont want to pay, you have to fight...
But then you have ?ber-high levels who die on purpose to fight a monster that is challengeing to them and gives them a decent amout of experience when all the hordes of everywhere are bugwash to them.
Before I suggested to random teleport the looser out of the DR far away from the point he died. That could be modified: In both cases, victory and defeat you are teleported into the DR. But: If you win, you will be teleported near the portal which leads back to action (perhaps the same spot where you get teleported when you skip the fight), if you loose you will be teleported far away. With a big DR with a whole city in it that would the best solution, I think :)
The best solution according to me is item loss. your body should be lootable by everyone (promoting party hunts with people you trust, like your guild) that way a high level with massive skills won\'t be able to use the carkarass as a training guy whenever he wants and it satisfies the need for some penalty for death.
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how ironic would it be for it to become PP to money?
Why ironic? PPs would just get some purpose for its existence.
decent amout of experience when all the hordes of everywhere are bugwash to them
Experience? XP are PP or am I wrong? Apart from beeing mad to get a million pp and nothing to use it for, I would even propose that the carkass dont give any loot or xp at all! => [The DR] shouldn\'t be nice.
[...] training guy whenever he wants
With my proposal anyone could fight at any time the carkarass if he wishes...
your body should be lootable by everyone
[irony] Nice... \"Hi buddy! How many newbies have you killed today?\" \"Oh, about 20 already... since you can loot them, griefing is more fun than ever!\" [/irony]
amogorkon
EDIT: Don`t take me wrong: the carkarass should not be there for amusement! It should take some minutes to get rid of it... loosing TIME is the punishment.
And if you dont pay attention, you have to walk a _long_ way back to action.
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The best solution according to me is item loss. your body should be lootable by everyone
And BTW: I proposed in the thread \" Wish list ? PvP,PK and Thieving ? to all those in support of open PKing (my first last and only opinion)\" that when you get killed, you loose a certain amount (percentage) of your money which will lie then outside of your body, free for everyone to get. Diablo 2 implemented this solution and it is a really good compromise between beeing able to loot everything and nothing. And since it is a percentage, everyone is being treated fairly halfway.
amogorkon
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hello
I don\'t play ps as often as I would like, but I felt like expressing my opinion on this matter
about death realm exits and exit gates \"camping\"
instead of a fixed location for exiting the dr, there would be several \"gate keepers\" (mostly monsters, but perhaps some npcs), diferent gate keepers, the harder to beat ones would send you to somewhere better when beaten than the easy ones, and it would work somewhat like this (on my idea of it)
you start fighting a gate keeper, if you beat it from his \"corpse\" would emerge a bright floating something (with as much cool specialfx as possible without being too much) this floating bright thing would try to float at your directio, with lots of inercia (think newtonian physics space flight) you would be able to dodge it if you want to for a little while, but it will start lossing mass and become more precise in its movement and when it hits you you get teleported, if you loose the fight against the gate keeper you would become a \"ghost\" (semi transparent) but would still be able to move, (but not interact with the world in any way, pickinup items, attackting somthing else etc....) and would start to get chased by something similar to the bright floating thing but which would look very menacing, perhaps a black cloud which shrieks, which would behave the same way the bright thing, but would send you back to some random other point on the death realm
if you fall or orthewise get killed on the dr the shrieking cloud will come too
perhaps a more interesting effect would be not one normal sized bright thing/shrieking cloud, but a swarm of it, if possible with flock like behavior ( boids etc...) the ones that hit you would become attached to your boddy where it hitted, after a number of it have attached to you you would bright up/darken (perhaps with texture, or with light) and you would get teleported
the bright things would explode from inside the gatekeeper\'s body in all directions or perhaps in a fountain like manner, the shrieking cloud would come from every direction from shady or dark areas, or just from random far away positions, but they would be able to not overshoot you by spiralling like a water in a drain when the reach a radius from the player, when inside tthe radius they won\'t be able to leave it, they wll hit the edge and will start to loose momentum as it goes around the \"sphere\", as they loosse enough momentum or mass they will aim closer and closer to the player.
perhaps to avoid getting some of them stuck and having the player locked on that state there would be a constant rate of them comming (out of the gatekeeper or from the dark places) and in the code there would be a check to see it one was on the same place or area for too long and if so it would be killed for recycling of memory
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Maybe the DR could be like another world. Maybe an evil twin of Yliakum (imagine Harnquist swindling you out of your money...) Maybe we could take ressurection take like 20 seconds to cast so the ressurecter could be killed within that time.
Maybe, assuming Carkarass is a guard, we could do an errand for him and then he would let us into the portal.
Also, the god council could give you a difficult task that you could do to be instantly next to the portal and not have to do Carkarass\' task every time you do for a certain amount of times. Newbies should be protected from griefers in my opinion. Just not sure how to do it.
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perhaps to avoid getting some of them stuck and having the player locked on that state there would be a constant rate of them comming (out of the gatekeeper or from the dark places) and in the code there would be a check to see it one was on the same place or area for too long and if so it would be killed for recycling of memory
Hey thats great! Money-Monsters! I imagine a swarm of bat-like little mobs which hunger for trias. They appear constantly in random locations with a relatively high frequency. Every money-monster has ~30 hitpoints, but is very quick, so it is very hard to kill one. They swarm around you and follow your movements, and with every hit they consume about 10 trias instead of hitpoints. As long as you run with high speed, they wont attack you. But are you moving below a certain limit, they will attack.
The idea about the portal coming out of a creature is certainly a good one... but for the DR I think it is a bit too late. There are portals implemented yet and it would be again hard work to change it :-/
Maybe they will make a special \"boss-monster\" with that effect...
Maybe the DR could be like another world. Maybe an evil twin of Yliakum (imagine Harnquist swindling you out of your money...)
An evil Harnquist? Maybe that idea is better in the wishthread about the \"dreamworld\"! (dont know the exact url right now) I like this idea however, its like the shadow-world in Zelda :)
Newbies should be protected from griefers in my opinion.
Yep, I think we have the protection thanks to TiagoTiago :) Running around to protect themselves from beeing hit by the money-monsters they wont think about griefing ;)
In the city, special fields could protect certain buildings from those monsters.
Maybe we could take ressurection take like 20 seconds to cast so the ressurecter could be killed within that time.
Yep, and maybe there could be a sort of inverted necromancing-spell to get directly to the DR-city, without the obstacles.
amogorkon
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Originally posted by amogorkon
I imagine a swarm of bat-like little mobs which hunger for trias. They appear constantly in random locations with a relatively high frequency. Every money-monster has ~30 hitpoints, but is very quick, so it is very hard to kill one. They swarm around you and follow your movements, and with every hit they consume about 10 trias instead of hitpoints. As long as you run with high speed, they wont attack you. But are you moving below a certain limit, they will attack.
I don\'t think there should be a penalty to loitering in the DR. If Dark Way trainers and the like are put there, that would be way too annoying. The carkarass riddle/fight, maze = annoyance, & recent stats/skills learned penalties are more than enough.
Originally posted by amogorkon
Yep, and maybe there could be a sort of inverted necromancing-spell to get directly to the DR-city, without the obstacles.
Good idea. If there will be legitimate reasons to go to the DR, there needs to be a way to get there without the penalty.
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recent stats/skills learned penalties
:-/ Some time before I proposed a loss of progression-points instead of skills, and I still think thats a better idea.
Maybe the swarm-idea as it is now is a bit too harsh. Perhaps the swarm could follow in a greater distance and attack only few times. So the feeling of beeing hunted is there, but not too annoying.
amogorkon
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Originally posted by amogorkon
Some time before I proposed a loss of progression-points instead of skills, and I still think thats a better idea.
The general consensus amongst people I\'ve talked to is that PP need to be done away with at some point, training at NPCs will only be done when you\'re learning a new skill (aka an apprenticeship), and skills should progress naturally with use. What I\'m saying here, is that you should lose a bit of the advancements that you made just prior to dying. In other words, you shouldn\'t be rewarded for training that results in your death. :P
On the subject of money, thieves are a good idea at some point, but a swarm of thief bats isn\'t that appealing. Money needs to be downplayed... allot. We don\'t want money to be as crucial as it is now, so we shouldn\'t have to worry about losing it this much.
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Originally posted by leuxast
The death realm will be huge and that will be punishment enough.
Supposedly, eventually you will go before a \"council\" of gods and you can either give them a magical item or be transported to the death realm (that takes about 15 mins to get out of)
This is the fact...sorry i missed like the rest of the thread...to long :O
But yeh Leuxast is right, it will be expanded and I\'m sure thats better then loseing all your items (witch was taken from WoW...dont try and copy other games) on the spot were you died, trust me it wont be the old boring DR you know now. As I\'m sure its been said before the DR will be another world all togther so in one sence it will be good for some people(unique items will be sold there ect.)
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WoW is actually not the first game to employ that tactic.
Maybe the DR should be so amazingly hard to get out of, that most people just wouldn\'t bother. This way you could come back from the dead, but it would not be commonplace. If this were implemented, though, you\'d have to just get knocked out most of the time instead of dying. You\'d only die when you\'re killed by something that eats you, which should also not be common. To sum up: getting knocked unconcious should be commonplace, but death should not, and neither should be coming back from the dead. Death should be avoidable in almost every situation. The problem with the DR as it is, or as something that you can just walk out of, even if it takes 15 minutes of work, is that it is difficult to RP around.
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@ DaveG
What I\'m saying here, is that you should lose a bit of the advancements that you made just prior to dying. In other words, you shouldn\'t be rewarded for training that results in your death.
Good point. However, how would you explain the loss of exactly those skillpoints which were gained shortly before dead, and not random ones?
@ Ralas
The problem with the DR as it is, or as something that you can just walk out of, even if it takes 15 minutes of work, is that it is difficult to RP around.
Not if you assume a god of death which takes you into his realm (literally, not just the spirit). To get out, you could assume that the other gods of the world are powerful enough to penetrate the DR to give the dead the possibility to come back. Its a bit like the question of theodicy in RL ;)
bye,
amogorkon
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Originally posted by amogorkon
@ DaveG
What I\'m saying here, is that you should lose a bit of the advancements that you made just prior to dying. In other words, you shouldn\'t be rewarded for training that results in your death.
Good point. However, how would you explain the loss of exactly those skillpoints which were gained shortly before dead, and not random ones?
How do you explain the ease of resurection?... :P
Let\'s put it this way, dying hurts... allot... so you should be \"injured\" in what you were using just prior to dying. This wouldn\'t be that hard to implement. The server would just have to look at a log of recent advancements, which it would already need to have to look out for bugs and exploits.
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The server would just have to look at a log of recent advancements,
I dont think there is such a log...
Let\'s put it this way, dying hurts... allot... so you should be \"injured\" in what you were using just prior to dying.
Then why not loosing hitpoints? In Baldurs Gate there is a similar system. The moment the char is ressurrected, his constitution determines how much hitpoints he keep. If he has a constitution over 18, he keep 100%. The lower the constitution is, the more he loose. If he has 3 constitution, he looses about 50%.
In PS it would be even easier to implement. But not to prefer fighters, I suggest to base the calculation on endurance and will.
With 100+ endurance you keep 100% hitpoints. Same for will. Each point less (starting from 100 endurance and will) gives you a 0,25% penalty.
Maybe the body-development could be taken into account, too...
Perhaps the necros in the DR could make some sort of ritual to restore the hitpoints (but only within a day or so, after that the hitpoints are fixed) or even a \"blood ritual\", in which you can pay mana-points to higher constantly your hitpoints or the other way round, a ritual in which you pay hitpoints to gain manapoints.
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Originally posted by amogorkon
The server would just have to look at a log of recent advancements,
I dont think there is such a log...
I\'m sure there\'s something like this. If there isn\'t, it would be very easy to implement.
Originally posted by amogorkon
Then why not loosing hitpoints?
HP is directly determined by the stats, so you\'re just reccomending a different way to loses stats. :P
If the characters in PS are going to be as varied as we hope, then you can\'t just hurt one specific thing. It has to be character specific. (ex: losing HP would make low HP characters like mages horribly weak) That\'s why I went with most recently advanced stats. I\'m not talking about a big loss. Maybe just 1/4 of the stats gained in the past total hour of gameplay time. Just stats, not skills; this would require weighting them differently, because some skills would be harder than others to learn.
The loss of some tria and cerain other (non-rare) items should occur on death when the character is killed by a humanoid monster. (aka, your corpse was looted) You could then get your stuff back by \"avenging\" your own death. (or an ally could do so, or just whoever kills the thing first :P )
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If the characters in PS are going to be as varied as we hope, then you can\'t just hurt one specific thing.
Why not? It is only logic that you loose life when you die. Weak chars wont get much weaker, because they dont have much to loose (because of the percentage). Besides, I dont suspect mages to die more often than melee-fighters...
Maybe just 1/4 of the stats gained in the past total hour of gameplay time.
And what if the char havent gained anything within that time? I would gain much money, train alot in a short time, hide somewhere, go afk in the meantime. After a half an hour I come back and dont loose any skills when I die.
(aka, your corpse was looted) You could then get your stuff back by \"avenging\" your own death.
here (http://planeshift.oodlz.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=14502&boardid=21&page=) is a long thread about that subject .
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Originally posted by amogorkon
Maybe just 1/4 of the stats gained in the past total hour of gameplay time.
And what if the char havent gained anything within that time? I would gain much money, train alot in a short time, hide somewhere, go afk in the meantime. After a half an hour I come back and dont loose any skills when I die.
I say this again: You are paranoid... :P Granted, though, this is a good thing on this issue.
First of all, the auto-booting of AFKers is already planned. If you do nothing for 10 min, you\'ll be logged off. Secondly, we could just make it the past hour of active/training gameplay time. (Ex: If you didn\'t advance anything in 10 minutes of the past hour, it\'d just go back to 70 minutes to get the full hour.) Thirdly, someone stupid enough to try and exploit this would be wasting time they could otherwise be using to do something useful.
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I say this again: You are paranoid...
Maybe I should feel honored for that ;)
First of all, the auto-booting of AFKers is already planned.
Oh? Thats new to me.
If you do nothing for 10 min, you\'ll be logged off.
I (beeing paranoid ^^) am imagining yet the first mod to get around this... Just a little programm which measures the time to 9 min and then simulates the hitting of a key, maybe to walk...
Secondly, we could just make it the past hour of active/training gameplay time.
Thats good... but it doesnt answer my question: how do you explain that in rp?Thirdly, someone stupid enough to try and exploit this would be wasting time they could otherwise be using to do something useful.
Fools are everywhere...
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Originally posted by amogorkon
Originally posted by DaveG
I say this again: You are paranoid...
Maybe I should feel honored for that ;)
You\'re welcome. :D
Originally posted by amogorkon
I (beeing paranoid ^^) am imagining yet the first mod to get around this... Just a little programm which measures the time to 9 min and then simulates the hitting of a key, maybe to walk...
It will always be possible to make a program to cheat in some way. All you can really do is prevent cheaters from doing it in-game. (ex: too flexible macros) GMs would just have to be on the lookout for this stuff. You might be able to make an algorithm to detect this sort of thing, but if this ever becomes a problem... the solution is to ban the user. (not to mention, there would be virtually no benefit to AFKing...) So, I think this is the point we stop with the devils-advocate-ness. :P
Originally posted by amogorkon
Thats good... but it doesnt answer my question: how do you explain that in rp?
How do you explain my strange ability to hide 2 claymores in my pocket... You can\'t argue for \"realism\" in a game that already has unrealistic parts. I think what I said up a few posts about death \"injuring\" the person is plenty. Besides, if we allow easy resurrection (if you can resurrect yourself in any way... it\'s easy) we can make up whatever rules work best. :rolleyes:
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How do you explain my strange ability to hide 2 claymores in my pocket... You can\'t argue for \"realism\" in a game that already has unrealistic parts. I think what I said up a few posts about death \"injuring\" the person is plenty. Besides, if we allow easy resurrection (if you can resurrect yourself in any way... it\'s easy) we can make up whatever rules work best. :rolleyes:
Bad argument :-P Its not about \"realism\" in the meaning of beeing similar to the RL, the point is to make the game consistent in itself. The game has to be logical with its own logic. Just like a construct of ideas...
About your idea to lower the skills which have been trained last:
You get hit randomly on different parts of the body. If the different parts were linked to different stats, the final hit could determine which stat you loose. If you dont want to loose intelligence for example, you have to wear a good helmet. The lost stats could be treated similar to the hitpoints. They also could be restored in the DR by necromants if you are willed to pay for it.
With that we had a starting point for part-related damage and its effects. A heavy hit on the legs could reduce stamina or even endurance/agility for some time.
The thing with the \"blood ritual\" (a similar idea from diablo 1, beta) with which you could exchange hitpoints to mana or the other way round could be realised, would be a nice idea, I think.
amogorkon
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On the subject of \"realism\"... I hate \"magical\" inventories, but as the game is currently set up, they are a necessary evil. (off topic...) On making things logical with itself, I agree, but I believe that taking permanent injury upon death is quite plausible. :P
The in-game battle system, where you take damage to certain areas, should have a greater effect. Many games have implemented detailed damage systems, and I think it would work here for both NPC and PC damage. (ex: hit in legs => slower) Mapping certain parts of the body to certain stats would make this easier to enact.
I like the idea of buying some stat penalties back while in the DR. More options is usually a good thing.
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Again a bit more off-topic:
After mapping certain parts of the body to certain stats, the step from general hitpoints to specific hitpoints (for every part a own hp-counter) is not far...
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Originally posted by amogorkon
Again a bit more off-topic:
The original topic of this thread was the carkarass in the Death Realm... we are way off that now... :P
Originally posted by amogorkon
After mapping certain parts of the body to certain stats, the step from general hitpoints to specific hitpoints (for every part a own hp-counter) is not far...
True. HP would be used to decide when you die, and temporary stat hits would be taken depending on which part of the body was damaged. (only small portion of which would be permanent)
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what about a temporary drain on hp, stamina etc, all stats that would be usefull on a battle, everytime one gets in or out the death realm, so there would be a need to eat, rest, meditate etc b4 going into to battle again? (sorry if someone else already said that in another way, Idid\'nt noticed 8o)
aout the money bats, the money part wasn\'t my idea, but the idea of diferent stat stealing swarm monsters seems interesting, perhaps based onwhere you are on the dr there would be different types of swarms, perhaps based on what would be the most important stat for where you would respawn.
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omg! a guy called Tiago!
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in case you\'re waiting for me to say anything else... \"podem tirar o cavalinho da chuva\" :P
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Originally posted by TiagoTiago
what about a temporary drain on hp, stamina etc, all stats that would be usefull on a battle, everytime one gets in or out the death realm, so there would be a need to eat, rest, meditate etc b4 going into to battle again?
This sounds like another good idea, if the need to eat is ever added... But, at far least I agree one should not be resurrected with full health.
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I agree. I think at this stage it is recommended to get into the DR with 0,1 hp and 0 stamina.
The time eating and resting are implemented, this could be also affected.
A few days before I experienced a little guildwar which was reduced on the spawnpoint. The members spawned with full health and killed the others because they wasnt at full health yet. Then the others respawned and killed the first, and so on. Atm I really would like getting into the DR practically unable to fight. And the DR should be non-pvp zone. Then the dead would have to wait till they are at full health again. In the same time the ones at the spawnpoint would regenerate also. So the forces were equal again at the spawn point. But at his point I would also suggest a random spawn point. It is just ridiculus to see 3 or 4 chars at one spot. I believe it is not really difficult to implement a random spawn point. Just define several (10 maybe) possible spots, connect them to a random generator and the problem of heavy sp-siege would be solved.