PlaneShift
Support => Technical Help: IN GAME bugs (after loading world) => Topic started by: canyouimagine on June 22, 2005, 10:16:17 am
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How come players can use magic to steal the kill of a creature when you have aleady started to attack them?
Player: Klyph, keeps using magic to steal my kills when I have aleady started fighting the character.
Is this a bug or am I S.O.L. becuase he knows magic?
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Reported bug, please check the BT before posting
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Hello, I\'m the \"rude\" player mentioned here.
Klyph basically only \"steals\" kills when he\'s trying to keep a hunting spot to himself and interlopers come along demanding to \"share\", trying to force it down his throat if he refuses. The one exception I made was when two players were using a tag team to keep a mob to themselves for hours and hours.
That said, there may be a bug here or just a design feature. I can shed a little more light on this issue. A plaryer with high agility and high strength can kill steal a mage every time on a mob they can kill in one hit. That has happened to me. It takes longer to cast a spell at level 30 in the magic skill than it takes for a fighter to smack a mob.
If I start blasting a mob first with magic, then another player starts hitting it with a weapon, I cannot then start melee combat against it, instead I get a message saying I have to be grouped with that player. This means I have to nuke it to death to get the kill. Fighter types exploit this to my expense quite often until they either can or can\'t push me away from the spot.
Also, I have seen where if they manage to pre-empt me by hitting with their weapon I can still get the kill back by nuking with magic, it seems to require that I land at least two nukes on the mob to get the looting rights.
The thing here is, the system is not too bad as it is, the real root cause of the problems we have is that there is not enough of a loot dropping mob population to support the current player population. So, we end up with situations of contention.
I\'ll be happy to talk to any dev if they want to collect info or debugging information with me.
Regards,
Kaithro
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Ok, I got into another competitive situation tonight and learned a little more about this.
First, I do not have to hit the mob twice with a spell, just once. Further, from what I can see it works 100% of the time if I manage to start casting the spell before the opponent starts attacking with their weapon. Then, if they hit the mob first, they get damage on it, but after the spell actually hits and does damage I end up getting the kill no matter who lands the most damage or the killing blow.
It seems, from that and other experiences, that a spell takes effect as soon as it is started. The casting delay seems to have more to do with a concentration component to maintain a spell, or maybe just to prevent rapid chain-casting.
I am sharing this info because I don\'t even remember the last time I competed with another caster. But if someone with level 30 in any Way was to compete with me then we might learn more. I don\'t know if this is specific to Summon Missile of the Crystal Way or if it is a general thing with magic.
Also, I am less sure that magic itself is bugged and more certain that this is a design feature. The bug may be in the opponent getting messages that they are hitting the mob when they shouldn\'t be able to. Or, conversely, magic is bugged, and the spell should not take effect until the casting delay is finished.
Sorry, that was a bit long-winded.
Kaithro
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Aha! I found bug-tracker after Androgos mentioned it here. I posted an update to the bug report there. So um.. what is this forum for then?
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Kaithro are you Klyph? What about when I have it first and you come along and steal it? That is stealing at that point. And until they add more creatures sharing is only a polite thing one could do.
What can one do about players like this?
Originally posted by Kaithro
Hello, I\'m the \"rude\" player mentioned here.
Klyph basically only \"steals\" kills when he\'s trying to keep a hunting spot to himself and interlopers come along demanding to \"share\", trying to force it down his throat if he refuses. The one exception I made was when two players were using a tag team to keep a mob to themselves for hours and hours.
That said, there may be a bug here or just a design feature. I can shed a little more light on this issue. A plaryer with high agility and high strength can kill steal a mage every time on a mob they can kill in one hit. That has happened to me. It takes longer to cast a spell at level 30 in the magic skill than it takes for a fighter to smack a mob.
If I start blasting a mob first with magic, then another player starts hitting it with a weapon, I cannot then start melee combat against it, instead I get a message saying I have to be grouped with that player. This means I have to nuke it to death to get the kill. Fighter types exploit this to my expense quite often until they either can or can\'t push me away from the spot.
Also, I have seen where if they manage to pre-empt me by hitting with their weapon I can still get the kill back by nuking with magic, it seems to require that I land at least two nukes on the mob to get the looting rights.
The thing here is, the system is not too bad as it is, the real root cause of the problems we have is that there is not enough of a loot dropping mob population to support the current player population. So, we end up with situations of contention.
I\'ll be happy to talk to any dev if they want to collect info or debugging information with me.
Regards,
Kaithro
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Klyph, you have absolutely no right to steal kills simply because you \"don\'t feel like sharing\".
Esserfin is another player who\'s really bad for this kind of crap.
If anyone does this to you, report it to the Game Masters by making a petition where you say who\'s doing what to you when where and how.
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Why don\'t you both try to find compromise next time you will have problem?
It is all known problems, but like in real life, you can\'t avoid them, you have to learn solving them.
There aren\'t many mages who try to participate with fighters, but when the situation happens and they want to kill the same animal at the same time there are two options.
1. The mage starts casting spell in the same time as the fighter attacks the mob. He hits it few times before the mage\'s spell successfully hits the mob. In this moment the fighter is helpless and can do nothing. The mage kills the mob with spells and takes the loot.
2. Mage and fighter start in the same way as in option 1. Only this time fighter is skilled enough that he can kill the mob before the mage finis the spell. Fighter wins and takes the loot.
If the fighter isn\'t smart he will think the mage has stolen his mob. Of course he is wrong, but sadly it is hard to explain this to him. He won\'t think that the mage has the same right to the mob as the fighter.
This is how current system works, it isn\'t fair and if mage won\'t be able to claim the monster by his spell, then it will be even worse as pure mage profession won\'t have practical sense.
My conclussion is. You can\'t avoid problems by setting unrealistic bariers like claiming mob by attacking it. The problems will stay as they are in humans nature. By providing players system, where they can decide in natural way how they are going to solve their conflict is better. In the worst cause one will kill the other to take what he think is his. This is how people often solved their problems in the past and still are.
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stealing kills? hmm
sharing is a must?
Sorry to say but claiming spawnplaces is a comon thing. And I don\'t think there are so few that it is mandatory that people should share.
I think t is the polite thing to do. Specially with the weaker tefu seeing there are only two, but to say it is against the rules to not share.........
Anyhow I think this problem normally occurs when you demand a sharing instead of asking and being polite. I have seen some people and how they react to the situation and can\'t blame other people for not wanting to share with them.
And it\'s not like there are not enough rats or not enough tefusang in the wild and in the other rooms or not rogues and thugs that drop swords. And it\'s not like even rats are less profitable then a shared tefusang.
Anyhow don\'t think this is the right section for this post
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This is a bug discussion forum, so I am not going to answer to personal concerns.
My behaviour is changing as I find myself getting more PPs and not enough money to train. So, I am getting to be more aggressive to get the money I need. As far as this magic issue goes, it can be considered a feature which can be used by any player (not just me).
Keep in mind that there is no rule against competitive hunting. I know this because I used to get KS\'d by other players and advisors and GMs told me it was not against the rules.
Perhaps we should be less vocal in our attacks on each other and more vocal on the root cause. Simply put, right now, mining is a low yield alternative to hunting and there are not enough loot dropping mobs for the player population. So, there is inevitable contention between players over the limited resources (trias).
Since it would require a lot of coding/debugging/testing to add in more of the crafting skills. I suggest that we ask for more loot dropping mobs. And/or the devs could add loot to the mobs that don\'t drop it right now such as boggles (only drop 1-3 tria), fanatics, sewer rogues, most dungeon thugs, clackers, consumers, trebors(sp?), and probably other things too. I have also noticed that the higher level Tefusangs that give 100% or more exp still drop teeth that are only worth 16 tria. It seems to me that just a little balancing would help cure a lot of this contention we now find ourselves with.
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Every new player who haven\'t played long enough to see everythink starts complaining there is not enough mobs to loot and he want more.
It isn\'t always like that a tought mob will give proportionally good loot. It is probably another theory brought from different game which isn\'t right.
And how can we expect somethink better from a tefusang than a teeth? (we should be able to loot at least 2 teeths because there are always 2 the same teeths considering only these are worth in smithing process and all other teeths can\'t be used. But that is different story) It doesn\'t matter if a tefusang is weak or strong. It has always only 1 teeth (should have 2?) which can be used because valuable.
Note that when there is more of somethink on the market it is loosing on value.
When you are looking for a tria, don\'t go to forums asking for them. Earn them ingame. But do it if you have good and well thought idea which isnt just another weird thing brough from different game.
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omg people grow up. Nobody can \'claim\' a spawn area for themselves. Everybody has equal right to every spawn area. The rule is; don\'t attack something someone else is already attacking. If there\'s another monster nearby which isn\'t being attacked, then attack that.
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Im getting really pissed. THis jerk named Proteus Glenn keeps stealing My kills. And He\'s to strong for me to hurt. They said they have the right to hog the spawn cause they were there first. Do you think one of The GM\'s could kick him for a day for stealing kills?
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hmm, maybe if you try telling one when he is doing it we can check it out maybe have some words. banning is a bit extreme no?
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Originally posted by bulbonius Im getting really pissed. THis jerk named Proteus Glenn keeps stealing My kills. And He\'s to strong for me to hurt. They said they have the right to hog the spawn cause they were there first. Do you think one of The GM\'s could kick him for a day for stealing kills?
Can you people not talk about something anymore? I agree with Drey. Try informing him of his wrong doing. and then a GM. Dont go \"Ban teh jerk Ban teh Jerk\" on the forums please.
And besides. The rules dev has spoken! Bow kill stealers, bow! :P
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Firstly i would like to point out that it is players like bulbonius here that cause these problems. He is Arogant , rude and has no respect for anyone els trying to play the game. In all my time in PS i have never met anone so disgusting as this players mouth. . Yes i did stop him from killing the tefs why because he tried to but in in mid battle and started f\'ing and blinding at us because there were 3 of us taking turns round a tef.. Now if he had come in and said may i, not one of us there would have said no. I just needed to clear my name here.. Because of players like him, i am glad that magic does what it does. However i would never use it to steal anothers kill.
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All I can say is that killing using magic to teach a player a lesson is not the best way to go about solving the problem. The \"eye for an eye\" mentality only makes the situation worse and adds fuel to the argument that people have against magic, even if it is a mis-understanding due to lag or some other issue.
I agree, informing a GM is the best way to go about these kind of situations.
/me puts down his two tria and wanders off to the tavern
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Originally posted by Ssi-Ruuk
All I can say is that killing using magic to teach a player a lesson is not the best way to go about solving the problem.
yup, if you cant sort out your problems fairly seek help from a GM, dont bring your arguments over to the forum.
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I kinda agree with the \"real life\" prespective.
The game is to be realistic! Every player could steal mobs (either by weapons or magics) this way it would be more realistic, but players with honor and are polite would certainly not attack a mob that other player is attacking, or ask to attack too if all are occupied. (maybe rats should lock to the first attacker because of the newbs)
Evil players can steal as long as their \"evilness\" is RP.
If these stuff continues when stealing is implemented we\'ll have people saying \"hey! ban that stupid jerk! he stole my trias!\"... Well, that\'s life! Aren\'t you mugged in real life?
This is what I think. Planeshift is meant to be realistic, everyone has their honor, politeness and kindness.
EDIT: Was talking to another person and came up with this:
An evil player after commiting some crimes (stealing, killing others on free pvp areas) would have his head as a prize, could be killed by anyone (on free pvp areas) and the player(s) that killed him would be awarded with a prize (prize would be diferent depending on the number of crimes and how serious they were).
Another option that a player could have is: Be able to kill other players as if he was a mob (in areas where you can only be attacked by mobs), but that would make him attackeble by others as if he was a mob. Those players would have a bigger prize on their heads because they can kill (and be killed) on more areas.
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Originally posted by Lordbug
...This is what I think. Planeshift is meant to be realistic, everyone has their honor, politeness and kindness.
I absolutely agree. If we are to be a true RP community, then kill-steal is as appropriate as is thieving! The fact that evil alignment in most cases has nothing to do with the actual stealing of kills, and that people do it because of OOC issues is another matter...
but theoretically speaking, if we were ALL in character when hunting, it\'s perfectly expectable that an evil rogue/mage/whatnot would try to get the fruits of another one\'s labour, right?
basically, I believe that the problem arises because too many people regard PS as just another game, where you hack&slash your way up. Just yesterday I met a dwarf in the tavern (named GUITAR?( ), Lordbug was present at that time... he can testify that he was asking everybody around where to find a dragon... he never read the dayumn PS homepage! how can we expect people like that NOT to be OOC, when they don\'t even HAVE a character?
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Well, first we would have to find out what was a dragon before we could tell him...
Well, when someone talks about dragons and stuff I assume those people aren\'t from Yliakum, maybe they are from one of those portals...
When we can go through portals we may see the so mentioned Dragons.
Since most races came from diferent places, some know things that others do not, plus some were born in Yliakum so they don\'t know anything about their race homeland.
And yes, it is sad that we see players that don\'t even care to respect other\'s RP :(
OOC kill stealing is totaly... ermm... not RP and shows how mad and mean the person is. OOC kill stealing is totaly disencouraged. RP kill stealing is ok, is a totaly encouraged for evil players.
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If the excuse for kill-stealing is RP, there needs to be a better system of defending your kill. An evil character at this point, then, has a very easy time taking over, while the good character can do very little, even though his RP may be far superior to the other. While I agree that kill-stealing shouldn\'t be taken out completely and that it adds to realism, at the moment I feel that it is unbalanced.
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The only reason using magic to steal kills is wrong, at this point, is because it induces a bug. It makes the odd system designed to protect kills swap over to the idiot with the magic, instead of the person standing right next to the NPC, who\'s been fighting it. The person who was attacking, is now banned from attacking again, or even defending. In fact, this exploit can also be used to intentionally get someone killed, by rendering them defenseless.
The really big problem, is that the world is not self-sufficient enough to deal with these people. If the exploit was used to steal a kill or even kill someone, no one could do anything about it. The cheater could simply ignore duel requests, and continue on. GMs are the only way to deal with this, and they aren\'t always available to do so. Not to mention, that we don\'t want to have a system with this sort of a problem in it.
If we want thieving, good. But we have to put in system to do it, not just allow it with bugs.
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Originally posted by Karyuu
If the excuse for kill-stealing is RP, there needs to be a better system of defending your kill. An evil character at this point, then, has a very easy time taking over, while the good character can do very little, even though his RP may be far superior to the other. While I agree that kill-stealing shouldn\'t be taken out completely and that it adds to realism, at the moment I feel that it is unbalanced.
Just what I was thinking about this whole kill-stealing :)
Only thing what a good character can do when somebody steals his mob is to watch how the mob gets killed. Well maybe he can to try to talk some sense to the evil character but if this evil character plays his part good, he would just go on stealing...why would he stop?
So IMO at the moment there should be somekind of equal agreement among players: If someone wants to group up for killing, he should act politely towards player(s) who had the mob camped before he came and ask if the player(s) can invite him in a group. And if he does this with good manner, the player(s) should accept his invitation....
but I know that we live in a world that is far from perfect so I guess that I just spent my 2 trias in nothing..
/me bows and leaves
-Khorus
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I 100%ly agree with Karyuu and DaveG on this.
KSing is exploitation of a bug, nothing else but cheating. There is absolutely no way of me to buy \"I\'m RPing evil so I KS\". None, because it is so ridiculously unlikely that a decent RPer who RPs evil does not check with the victims first, to see if they are capable of handling the victim side. This must not be forced upon players, because it requires so much RP experience and good will that it cannot be expected.
Edit: Furthermore, due to the inherent limitations of PS, the evil player cannot simply ignore the victim. Instead, they will, if the evil one really RPs, have to deal with the situation in an RP manner. IOW, they will have to enter a session with a lot of /me-ing in it. It is not RP to simply ignore the victim, that is exploitation of the limited options the game offers, nothing else.
/Edit
Anyway, I have been victim of both KSing for loot and for getting me killed, and I highly doubt there was any sort of RP involved. At least in the getting me killed situation there was no single word spoken to me, even upon me inquiring via /tell.
So basically, this supports my assumption that KSing is used solely for OOC purposes, and never for RP.
The most often unfreiendly and extremely egoistic environment makes the kill grind even worse than it already is due to it\'s dullness.
As for sharing: I also think that one should share, but I expect to be asked politely.
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If these stuff continues when stealing is implemented we\'ll have people saying \"hey! ban that stupid jerk! he stole my trias!\"... Well, that\'s life! Aren\'t you mugged in real life?
Wait a minute, players will be able to steal from other players, thats just wrong, and its unfair! If i get mugged, ill stop playing...
Anyways, i got magic now, so if they steal from me, I steal back. ^^
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bulbonius: if you train the same skill it\'s more dificult to get mugged :P
Kills could be stealed by any mean, not just magic (now\'s just a big, but later... who knows?)...(dunno if I said that already do I put it again :P)
If the excuse for kill-stealing is RP, there needs to be a better system of defending your kill. An evil character at this point, then, has a very easy time taking over, while the good character can do very little, even though his RP may be far superior to the other. While I agree that kill-stealing shouldn\'t be taken out completely and that it adds to realism, at the moment I feel that it is unbalanced.
Yes, but...
EDIT: Was talking to another person and came up with this:
An evil player after commiting some crimes (stealing, killing others on free pvp areas) would have his head as a prize, could be killed by anyone (on free pvp areas) and the player(s) that killed him would be awarded with a prize (prize would be diferent depending on the number of crimes and how serious they were).
Another option that a player could have is: Be able to kill other players as if he was a mob (in areas where you can only be attacked by mobs), but that would make him attackeble by others as if he was a mob. Those players would have a bigger prize on their heads because they can kill (and be killed) on more areas.
After commiting a serious or x number of crimes he would have his head as a prize. New source of income! kill the guy who stole your kill! :P
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Actually it is only abusive not RPing, because people has no chance to defend
themselves against KSers. If spawns would be PK maps then it would be
different, you have stolen from me? Then I will beat the soul out of your body!
Then it would be realistic and fair. Anyway these bugs AFAIK will be fixed soon
which, I think, should solve the problem untill PKing and thieving will be
implemented.
Regards.
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Post by greyandbleak moved (posted) here (for lack of proper moderation tools):
Everyone here is talking about KSing, But honestly no one wants it to happen to them. If you wanted to solve it make the monsters level dependent. Newbs kill rats, players sell teeth. If not that then make mining levels higher or better rock picks since they made it pick quality dependent too. On creatures already attacked by someone else make magic fail on that creature if not from the person originally attacking it. Claiming spawn points... It\'s mine not yours I am not sharing is childish. Spawn points maybe then should have randomly generated location within certain constrants. It would be bug heaven and take the developers weeks. But that doesn\'t matter cause people can\'t be mature enough to share an area, spawn point, monster. How about some ideas to prevent, protect instead of constant complaints. Site banning is a little harsh. Why not have those people around to show areas where improvement is needed. I have hogged spawn points and a few and I mean few times kill stole. But that was when I started. I relized it wasn\'t fair and could quit without getting mad that my character had more progression points rather than money. Go mine some platinum to even it out. I did.
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Well it\'s been said it\'s a bug. If you still do it knowing it\'s a bug you are a cheater in my book simple as that.
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Everyone here is talking about KSing, But honestly no one wants it to happen to them. If you wanted to solve it make the monsters level dependent.
Actually I do want to happen that kind of stuff to me... KS, a group of player thugs beat the crap out of me and steal my stuff... or at least they approach me with that intention and I beat the crap out of them with my 1337 spelzors! :D :P
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Originally posted by zanzibar Esserfin is another player who\'s really bad for this kind of crap.
What?
Hope you are just joking... who are you?
I\'ve never stoled a kill with magic (just a cup of times because of other character steal, but i never killed the monster).
If i don\'t invite someone to group kill is because:
1) he didn\'t asked me
2) i saw him killing noobs around too much times
3) i saw him trying to steal the kill to me or to someone else (also in another day, i have good memory for that)
4) he offended or used bad words with me (or with someone else again)
5) he is arrogant with weaker characters
6) he say \'let me group or i call a GM...gne gne gne\"
7) i didn\'t noticed you for some reason (view position, 4 /tell session and /guild chat opened and hard chatting and so on)
So, again, who are you? I don\'t know a character called \'Zanzibar\' online in PS. Use your \'real\' name please to libel me.
Esserfin Sussert
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Oh no.... i haven\'t even started playing , i\'m waiting for moderator to manually activate my account and i find out about this..... This is depressing... :( o well still seems like a pretty good game.
Also you can get banned for ksing right????
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Originally posted by Dark monk
Also you can get banned for ksing right????
Doing it repediately, knowingly, and after warnings... Yes, people can be banned.
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Well sure you can have killstealing as being part of the roleplay, seeing as those characters are \"evil\" then. But if so, there should be laws active, and some sort of \"general order\" walking around that prevent people from disobeying that law.
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The problem is that once you allow (kill)stealing, open killnig, and the like people will abuse it.
As it was mentioned earlier, even if it was not abused it would require great deal of RP experience of the player to deal with that. And it could be that at times you would not be in the mood to deal with such things although you can normally play that well.
Now if you add the people abusing such features because they are just evil (or whatever you would you call that) OOC, you get a quite unpleasant experience, especially for the beginners.
No \"laws\" or \"cops\" can solve this problem. The offenders can create multiple accounts in PS or in varoius games to play while one of their account is banned. Killing the character is not a great deal. It just appears at the exact place where most noobs are located and can continue annoying them.
IMHO any PKing and stealing should be off by default unless somebody comes with some briliant idea how to make it impossible to abuse. It is fine to have guild wars or select places for PKing (as opposed select non-PKing places), and even the ability for a guild to declare war on itself - just none of them turned on by default.
The fact there are few monsters (or the monsters are hard to find) and few things to do except monster killing is a (mis)feature of the game. This means that mosters are a scarce resource and people can be expected to try to get hold of some even by some not-so-polite means. That is how some poeple behave.
Once the game features change monsters will not be so important anymore. Plus any bugs in the current attack system should be fixed, of course.
To add my personal experience: I finally managed to get the game running (or at least walking as long as I do not look in the direction of the Plaza), and I managed to find the entrance to the sewers.
In there I saw two or three spawn places, several players surrounding each of them. I also found the smith that sells picks for 100Tria.
So it looks like I should be looking for some better hardware, and think what I would like my character to do. The options implemented so far (mining and monster-slashing) both do not look very attractive and are near impossible to do due to in-game conditions.
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Originally posted by hramrach
The problem is that once you allow (kill)stealing, open killnig, and the like people will abuse it.
...
No \"laws\" or \"cops\" can solve this problem. The offenders can create multiple accounts in PS or in varoius games to play while one of their account is banned. Killing the character is not a great deal. It just appears at the exact place where most noobs are located and can continue annoying them.
I agree to some degree. Largely due to the second to last sentence. Death isn\'t permanent, thus there isn\'t much of a punishment to fear. (for non-cheating offenses; it\'s possible to ban their IP all together if they\'re caught cheating)
What I think would be best, is an open PK system, because right now only a GM can do anything and all players are completely helpless to defend anything. But, the DR needs to be expanded first to make death more of something to resist. (we rambled about DR stuff in this thread here (http://www.planeshift3d.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=17050&boardid=11)) To some degree, yes, there\'d occasionally be some chaos. But, eventually the morons annoying people would figure out they\'re not wanted, due to myself and others repediately killing them... :P
Originally posted by hramrach
I managed to find the entrance to the sewers.
In there I saw two or three spawn places, several players surrounding each of them.
Spawns are bugged, especially in the sewers. Supposedly, it will be fixed soon.
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In any virtual world there are not the breadth nor depth of interactions that one finds in the \'real world\'. In the real world, people have Google, newspapers, police, courts, and media.
In days past, public order was maintained by expulsion, with resultant loss of access to resources and to the collective efforts of others. Those expelled made their living off the land as scavengers or bandits. Those that chose to live as bandits, if caught, were drawn and quartered and have their heads stuck on pikes as a warning to those who would choose this path.
Now, I propose a PlaneShift version of this to deal with all the miscreants... ;)
Allow player killing. Allow stealing of kills. Allow all negative behaviour which is legitimate within roleplay. However, these actions have consequence depending on the context of the action.
If a player attacks another player (but does not kill them, i.e. assault) within sight, sound or reasonable discovery of other players or non-evil NPCs, then the offending player should lose a chunk of their reputation which is commensurate with the offence. Loss of reputation makes it difficult for them to be served by merchants of good or lawful alignment -- and increases the likelihood that they will be refused entry to the city or community in the future.
Significant loss of reputation (such when the offender kills a player other than in self-defence) will cause the player to be arrested or executed on sight by city guards, and/or perhaps cause the posting of a bounty for their heads by the city. If the player (character) is clever/lucky enough to escape and commit further crimes, then good luck to them -- the bounty increases as does the desire of the authorities to bring the miscreant to some form of justice (i.e. execution or imprisonment). This will probably cause the formation of a posse by some enterprising or vengeful group of players (guild membership does bring benefits -- just kill a guild member and suffer their wrath) and eventually result in the death of the offending player.
Incidentally reputations (both good and bad) should decay slowly with time -- as does people\'s memories -- with the result that an occasional small misdeed will be easily forgotten after a short time, while even large misdeeds can take much, much longer.
Now, death is not much of a deterrent is it? Here\'s how it can be. Once dead, if the character died with a poor reputation (less than a certain value), then the character is dead -- completely and irreversibly -- OR the character is stuck in hell for a few hours/days/weeks (actual time), depending on how poor their reputation is.
They should also not be rewarded for their actions, so a goodly portion of their possesions can be traded with the death god to \'wipe the slate clean\' so that they can be reborn with a \'neutral\' reputation (i.e. joe average). If they don\'t trade, then they get reborn with the reputation they had when they died (but one won\'t be so mean as to respawn them in Hydlaa Plaza!)
Incidentally, some of you may think that this favours Lawful and Good characters too much. Well, there\'s a good RP reason for this. Cities and communities not only depend on lawful conduct -- they define what lawful conduct is. Lawful conduct is that which does not weaken or threaten the community. Evil characters (but not Lawful Evil in the AD&D sense) directly challenge the viability of the community and emphasize antisocial behaviour (i.e. unlawful in the RP sense) that favours their personal position or gain. As a side note, it\'s interesting that Lawful Evil characters should actually do quite well in the cities, since they are careful not to \'kill the golden goose\', but instead aim to \'milk it for all it\'s worth\' (if you\'ll pardon the deliberate mixed metaphors).
If we want it RP and we want it \'real\', let sociopathic characters have a taste of what that means in \'real\' terms. :)
BTW: Incidentally, if any developers want to know how to manage reputation using a systemtic approach, they are welcome to contact me for information on the relevant mathematical calculus and engineering details (yeah yeah boring I know but someone\'s gotta build the damn thing).
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You absolutely do not get it.
If somebody wants to cause trouble and is not allowed in the city, he will wait at the city gate.
He does not need to buy anything from merchants as he will eventually steal it from somebody.
DaveG being the cop is as inefficient as anything else being the cop. They will just stay out of sight of these. There cannot be a cop behind every other tree.
And even if you later hunt down the offender it does not undo the annoyance caused. And hunting him down does not mean anything - he will just get out of Death Realm in a while.
It would be all right if there were people who play thieves and criminals that steal because it is their role. And still have some honor and codex (at least that they steal only what they need or what they were paid for).
The problem is there will be players that kill and steal just to annoy other players. All the time. Everywhere. Without any IC reason.
The only way to deal with these is to not allow killing and stealing anything. At least not by default.
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Originally posted by hramrach
You absolutely do not get it.
Actually, I think he does... :P
Originally posted by hramrach
If somebody wants to cause trouble and is not allowed in the city, he will wait at the city gate.
People are everywhere; these things can be reported.
Originally posted by hramrach
He does not need to buy anything from merchants as he will eventually steal it from somebody.
So what?...
Originally posted by hramrach
DaveG being the cop is as inefficient as anything else being the cop. They will just stay out of sight of these. There cannot be a cop behind every other tree.
So long as he does it IC and without exploiting any bugs (like the whole beginning of this thread was about :rolleyes: ), so be it. GMs exist to enforce the rules. They will deal with the actual cheaters. And, they can teleport and cloak... so no hiding from them. :P
Originally posted by hramrach
And even if you later hunt down the offender it does not undo the annoyance caused.
Again I say: So, what?
Originally posted by hramrach
And hunting him down does not mean anything - he will just get out of Death Realm in a while.
Yes I agree with this. Go read my long winding (seemingly immortal...) \"Carkarass\" thread. (http://www.planeshift3d.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=17050&boardid=11) We covered many ideas in there, and others are around in other threads. But, yes, death needs to be a bigger deterent.
Originally posted by hramrach
It would be all right if there were people who play thieves and criminals that steal because it is their role. And still have some honor and codex (at least that they steal only what they need or what they were paid for).
The problem is there will be players that kill and steal just to annoy other players. All the time. Everywhere. Without any IC reason.
The only way to deal with these is to not allow killing and stealing anything. At least not by default.
Yes, there will be asses... but they exist in the real world too. ;) The solution is not to just throw out anything that can be abused, but to actually put effort into the system to make it work.
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Originally posted by DaveG
Originally posted by hramrach
If somebody wants to cause trouble and is not allowed in the city, he will wait at the city gate.
People are everywhere; these things can be reported.
And GMs have to solve the stuff all the time.
What you basically propose is: If somebody annoys me, I will try to kill him, and if somebody kills me, I will report him so that a GM bans him. Not a good system. And even banning may be ineffective - you can create multiple accounts.
Originally posted by hramrach
He does not need to buy anything from merchants as he will eventually steal it from somebody.
So what?...
So banning them out of the city is useless.
Originally posted by hramrach
And even if you later hunt down the offender it does not undo the annoyance caused.
Again I say: So, what?
If it\'s annoying what is it good for? Who would play it?
Originally posted by hramrach
It would be all right if there were people who play thieves and criminals that steal because it is their role. And still have some honor and codex (at least that they steal only what they need or what they were paid for).
The problem is there will be players that kill and steal just to annoy other players. All the time. Everywhere. Without any IC reason.
The only way to deal with these is to not allow killing and stealing anything. At least not by default.
Yes, there will be asses... but they exist in the real world too. ;) The solution is not to just throw out anything that can be abused, but to actually put effort into the system to make it work.
Yes, but all we know is that open killing systems do not work, even with cops and whatnot. So we should not use such system.
And we also do not want a system that relies on GMs to solve everything. We do not have an infinite supply of GMs.
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I haven\'t followed all the details of this discussion but I want to point out that there is currently a bug in the system somewhere that allows for magic to kill a target when it should not be able to. We are actively tracking this down at the moment and it has my full attention. By design you should only be able to attack things that you have hit first or are in a group with the original attacker.
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Originally posted by acraig
I haven\'t followed all the details of this discussion but I want to point out that there is currently a bug in the system somewhere that allows for magic to kill a target when it should not be able to. We are actively tracking this down at the moment and it has my full attention.
Yes, I pointed that out as well. But like any thread longer than 3 posts, it\'s strayed off track... :P It\'s gotten to the point where it should really just be moved to the PKing sub-forum.
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Originally posted by Esserfin
Originally posted by zanzibar Esserfin is another player who\'s really bad for this kind of crap.
So, again, who are you? I don\'t know a character called \'Zanzibar\' online in PS. Use your \'real\' name please to libel me.
Now i know you are Shalmaneser..... and people knows you.