PlaneShift
Fan Area => The Hydlaa Plaza => Topic started by: mikewsnc on July 11, 2005, 09:46:52 pm
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I have watched this gaming word grow for years now. Much longer than my forum reg date says. Over these last six or seven months things have started to deteriate greatly.
GM\'s this part is to those of you in game going around renaming people. I understand renaming someone who was idiotic enough to name themselves sk8er or some dumb things like that but you have to have a line somewhere. I read a post from a guy named Eiffel. Now this seems a perfectly appropriate name. Yes yes I know \"there is an Eiffel tower\". So what, who\'s to say there was no chance in a fantasy world that a parent wouldn\'t name there child Eiffel. Guys your taking the RPG element and turned it into a dictatorship.
In this next thought I know there is no way I can be alone. Mods, Get over yourselves, PLEASE. Yes you have a job to do, this I understand, but come on is it in your job description to be completely rude to anyone who wasn\'t here since the days of AB. Yes I know the influx of Newbs we have seen since the start of CB has been somewhat overwhelming but this is no reason to be rude. Even to the ignorant.
Ok enough for now, I will see you guys in 06 and hopefully everyone has realized we live in this game for fun and we don\'t need to be told when we can eat breath talk sleep and for goodness sake what we can name ourselves (within reason of course)
Aranis
www.dark-matter.co.nr
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*yawn*
Here we go again. Ten-to-one this thread is locked before the night\'s over.
See ya Aranis. Come back soon, and make sure you let Zan or someone from the Ethos know you\'re leaving. Like me. Yeah, I\'ll do... :P
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Im still going to help you guys as far as keeping the site up and also for funding parts of the various festivals we hold so no need to worry about saying goodby.
Aranis
And yeah they will lock this thread but doesnt matter. They know I am write and I feel the four years or so I have been with this game gives me the right to at least speak how I feel.
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Don\'t hate me for it but I actually sort of agree with him a bit. The mods and gms (in general nothing personal) are going into name/post nazi mode and it has to have its limits. I see nothing wrong with the name Eiffel. Personally, I see gms and stuff who have names much worse than Eiffel.
This is getting pretty bad too. As you guys know all of IT quit ps. When I asked seprot about it he reffered to people having too much power.
Syzerian Aralos whom most of you should know also quit ps though he didn\'t announce it. I talk to him in guildwars all the time and when I asked him why he quit he also brought up the subject of to much power.
I think the gms should just chill a bit and let people with names like Eiffel go. And the mods should chill a bit and let people post freely without worries of getting their post deleated.
Oh ya a lot mods/gm are pretty mean when people get into playing planeshift without knowing its a roleplaying game then ban them for nothing. It\'s way too easy to be a gm right now if you ask me.
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Later, dude I don\'t know. You make valid points.
My point of view is too popular nowadays. Ah well.
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its too bad that you are leaving for a while. I understand your complaints and everything and why you need a break. Just come back soon so we can talk mike.
See you soon
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the guy\'s name was \"Karl Marx\" ;)
Don\'t know why I mention that though, I just felt the urge to do it. :)
EDIT: O.o I am pretty sure I pressed the \"send PM\" button, not \"reply\" o.O
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Originally posted by Kiern
My point of view is too popular nowadays. Ah well.
Uh-oh, might have to change it, Kiern :rolleyes:
Your views on names don\'t exactly coincide with the rules stickied in the General section of the forums, Efflixi, plain and clear for all to read. As it has been stated, if you disagree with the rules, discuss them with those who created them, not with those who have been assigned with enforcing them. It\'s a fruitless task, otherwise. I think this is an obvious observation.
Really, the amount of naming threads that go up is ridiculous. If it\'s a new player, at least they\'ve the lack of previous experience to excuse them. But for someone who has been with the community for several years not to learn that such threads are useless, is silly.
People leave, and people come. It\'s natural. The tiniest of percentage of those who have been here three or four years ago are still here with us now, and three or four years later many more will be replaced. Every player has had ties and relationships with people here, of course, and because of these they will be missed. But not everyone is expected to stay, and I think that\'s alright.
So good luck to you on this break, Mike, and come back sometime.
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*sigh*
Whatever happened to the good old days of Cabali flaming? The GM\'s never did anything about that. Now it\'s like, \"Hey you hurt his feelings!\" *lock*
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GMs? Mods? A tiny bit of difference, Phinehas :>
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Originally posted by Karyuu
Originally posted by Kiern
My point of view is too popular nowadays. Ah well.
Your views on names don\'t exactly coincide with the rules stickied in the General section of the forums, Efflixi, plain and clear for all to read. As it has been stated, if you disagree with the rules, discuss them with those who created them, not with those who have been assigned with enforcing them. It\'s a fruitless task, otherwise. I think this is an obvious observation.
Really, the amount of naming threads that go up is ridiculous. If it\'s a new player, at least they\'ve the lack of previous experience to excuse them. But for someone who has been with the community for several years not to learn that such threads are useless, is silly.
As for the \"stickied in the general section\" Your right. No doubt, its there. That doesn\'t make it right though. And the only person to ever listen to what I had to say in game was TMed and out of game was Acraig. So its not like most of them care much less listen.
And as for the amount of naming threads, well one would figure after so many of them lately someone should have posted a definitive response from the devs or mods.
Somehow I can feel my first deleted post coming quickly today. Either way, Devs please listen to me at least a little. I love this game, Have been a part of it a long time. Please set restrictions or semi-guidelines for the mods and GM\'s. The power they have at this point to disrupt and hinder my RP in Planeshift is unbelievable.
Aranis
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If you have complaints against GM behavior and have specific logs to back it up, Acraig has stated many times that he is more than willing to take a look. He has provided an email address in previous threads which you can use to submit the logs. No logs? Stick around until you think you have something of value to show. Otherwise, throwing random complaints into the wind is unfortunately no good.
This has been stated before.
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Originally posted by Karyuu
If you have complaints against GM behavior and have specific logs to back it up, Acraig has stated many times that he is more than willing to take a look. He has provided an email address in previous threads which you can use to submit the logs. No logs? Stick around until you think you have something of value to show. Otherwise, throwing random complaints into the wind is unfortunately no good.
This has been stated before.
You know what I am sorry to have to go here but this is a public thread. It is an open thread. This is a place to talk about anything as long as you dont outright flame,curse, or just stait up be an ---. So I have the right to voice my opinion here. OPINION that seems to be a common voice among many planeshifters.
If I had 500 people in a building and 150 of them say its way to cold then it may just be an opinion but I should probly look into it.
Point blank if you do not agree with me fine, post your reason. yet you feel compelled to come here and just tell me in more words that my opinion however much valid has no right to be posted here and have no relivance \"throwing random complaints into the wind\".
So either find a side of this issue and post about it or dont post at all if all you are planning to post is about how stupid I was to post this thread.
Thank You,
Aranis
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Deep breath - you misunderstood.
My last post addressed the issue of improper GM behavior that you said disrupts and hinders your RP in-game. Now, Acraig himself has stated before that if this happens, email him about it. I am reminding you of one of the choices you have - contacting someone higher than a GM to look at a specific issue and hopefully reach a decision faster than posts on the forum can yield. I wasn\'t telling you to shut up or refrain from posting your opinion - which is, indeed, shared by more than just a few people. No need to put on a defensive shield.
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Originally posted by Karyuu
GMs? Mods? A tiny bit of difference, Phinehas :>
True, but he mentioned GM\'s and posts there somewhere, or someone did. And since I can\'t go in-game, I decided to go with my own beefs against authority.
Karyuu, you don\'t seem to understand, being a goody-two-shoes and supporting the GM\'s side of things is all nice and sweet, but it doesn\'t do anything. Most of the insults, both real and perceived, aren\'t necessarily breakings of the laws, more like being rude because you can. Stuff like that isn\'t the kind of thing you can report to an authority, but that doesn\'t make it any less irritating or frustrating. Remember, just because you can justify an action, doesn\'t make it the best thing to do.
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Originally posted by Karyuu
Your views on names don\'t exactly coincide with the rules stickied in the General section of the forums, Efflixi, plain and clear for all to read. As it has been stated, if you disagree with the rules, discuss them with those who created them, not with those who have been assigned with enforcing them. It\'s a fruitless task, otherwise. I think this is an obvious observation.
Really, the amount of naming threads that go up is ridiculous. If it\'s a new player, at least they\'ve the lack of previous experience to excuse them. But for someone who has been with the community for several years not to learn that such threads are useless, is silly.
Hi. The fact that you must understand, is that no one really cares how ridiculous the post might seem to you, it is important to them, or else it would not be posted. Your point that it will (might) accomplish nothing makes little difference, not every thread has to be completely necessary to be posted, just look at the posts in Hydlaa Plaza. For some reason though, if it is relevant to Planeshift but not completely necessary/useful it is indeed locked.
Originally posted by Karyuu
Originally posted by Kiern
My point of view is too popular nowadays. Ah well.
Uh-oh, might have to change it, Kiern :rolleyes:
Yes, because that is exactly what I meant...
And, to beat you over the head with the fact that what I just said was indeed sarcastic, I will throw in a few smiley\'s. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Unfortunately for me, there is no clear \"self-deprecating humor\" smiley.
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I am rather amused, Phinehas, that people who share your opinion seem to indulge rather often in name-calling, while those who have opposing views refrain from such.
Perceived insults can be resolved in a normal and mannerly fashion, if the player calms down. GMs themselves do not have an infinite amount of patience, though they are meant to have more than most. If a GM is rude, I don\'t understand why a log cannot be saved and collected until it is presentable to those who appoint GMs. Surely if there are problems, they need to be addressed by someone other than the problem-makers, yes?
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I don\'t indulge in name-calling, that I know of.
Anyways, all I\'m saying is that if people who have been around for a long time find the GM\'s, many of whom are \"new\" to be insulting, then something\'s wrong. I honestly don\'t think Aranis here is the type to get easily offended and then pout. Perhaps with all the complaints coming in, someone should try listening. Just perhaps, though. I also know that it can be extremely frustrating trying to get anyone in authority to actually do anything. Acraig is better than most, admittedly, but even he can be rather \"absent\".
Also, the whole \"show a log and email Acraig\" thing. That\'s nice, but I dont\' think it\'s the best. Why is it made so complicated for someone to complain? Surely there could be some way to make the process easier. Spoonscape, for all it\'s shortcomings, had a wonderfully easy way of putting in complaints. You simply pressed the button, chose your type of complaint, and a log of the last minute was sent to whoever looked after that sort of thing. I know it\'s still beta, and therefore these sorts of things haven\'t come into being yet, and that\'s ok. All I\'m saying is that perhaps posts on the forums shouldn\'t just be flamed and locked, but looked into. After all, no one makes it hard to report a bug...
For the record, even when I could play the game, I didn\'t even know you could keep logs, and if I did, I probably wouldn\'t have anyways. Don\'t answer this with a flame about how easy logging is, just consider it.
As a last comment, I\'d like to point out that I think the problem between GM\'s and players is not solely the fault of the GM\'s, and definitely not the fault of the devs. If more of the \"oldbies\" would spend less time whining about how hostile the PS world is, and spent more time working to achieve GMness, then it would be a better world all \'round. I would have done this... started actually, but I no longer have my own computer, so I\'m incapable of continuing.
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Originally posted by Phinehas
*sigh*
Whatever happened to the good old days of Cabali flaming? The GM\'s never did anything about that. Now it\'s like, \"Hey you hurt his feelings!\" *lock*
Wow I don\'t think anything has ever been put into better words. Bring back the cabal and everything will be better!!! How ironic...
Edit: By the way. I don\'t think it should come to reporting gms if just the devs would personally ask more relyable players to be gms instead of random people fo \"help\" others in game.
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Well, I\'ll hope to see you Soon Aranis..but..it seems to me this thread is more a debate over Gm issues *Ducks for a crayon of death +1* Well..Bye anyway Aranis. /me walks off.
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I agree with Mike, I swear the GMs would have made great members of the gestapo, they won\'t be satisfied until everyone conforms to their small backwards idea of a mmorpg world, luckily i have world of warcraft now where the gms are actually HELPFUL, :D ah I bid thee a farewell
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That was unnecissary. The gMs are helpful to those willing to learn and have hard enough jobs without people like you discouraging them. Hope you have a good time with WoW.
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LOL good! Once they get discouraged maybe theyll allow us a little somthin called liberty, ya see we fought a world war over that, look it up ;). Eiffel was probably the name of many things before the eiffel tower was erected, they have no right to change eiffels name without even asking, im guessing the gms need to work on their logic, also keep in mind that most structures are named after people in the first place, would you guys change my name if i made a char named ben? \"oh no! hes called ben! like big ben! it must be changed to.....um...bib...yes....its dorky and geeky and it will be his name!\" pfff give me a friggin break. Ah why do i bother? now that iv made a good point a GM will comeback with an inferior point and then close the thread before i have time to reply back, or maybe theyll just delete my post completely
and on another note yes i think anyone who calls themselves microwave are complete idiots who deserve wotever comes their way but come on, eiffel isnt exactly a stupid name now is it
anyway thanks, i will have a good time on wow
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Originally posted by remvak
now that iv made a good point a GM will comeback with an inferior point and then close the thread before i have time to reply back, or maybe theyll just delete my post completely
Repeating what Karyuu has already said, GMs and Forum Moderators are two different groups...though each do include Mogura I believe (at least I\'m guessing she is a GM), who is quite good at that. :baby:
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i dont care its hot and i feel annoyed at the mods, and yes that was a careless mistake to mix up GMs and mods, oh well
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Well I intended to include both mods (only two of them and no names) and gm\'s( again only two of them).
I have a question for a mod. When you lock a thread or delete a post ask yourself if its for the good of the community of because you yourself did not care for it.
GM\'s to you all I ask is common sense. They say we use only 10% of our brains well please reach for 11% before you rename someone who\'s name you have never seen in a d&d game. I have seen a few people renamed ( not just Eiffel) who\'s name was not a disruption to the game world. Please just think about it before you rip someone of there identity.
For the most part the ones working on this game whether in game or on boards do an outstanding job. Problem is the few ruin it for the majority.
Aranis
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Perhaps I am just uninformed here but I\'m not even sure the name rules are concrete enough for someone to be sure that their name won\'t be changed.
Roleplay
* Naming Policy
In the fantasy world of PlaneShift, players are encouraged to roleplay as much as possible in order to become fully immersed in the setting of the game. To assist this goal, these player naming standards have been created. The general rule is that the names must be compatible with the RPG style and spirit.
All names violating #1, 2 and 3 will be changed by a GM sooner or later. If the player subsequently violates these terms again, they will be banned from the game:
1. Names of popular book/film/game characters, widely known politicians, countries, movements and their leaders, religion, religion leaders or religious figures, actors, artists and trademarks.
2. Parts of the name that have a cultural connotation incompatible with the RPG style as defined in the Planeshift Fantasy/Medieval setting should be avoided. Included, but not exhaustive, are: references to the cyber-culture, existing religions, politics, history, slang, ... The fact that the name part is in another language than English doesn\'t exclude it from this rule.
3. Stupid names, like \"Spawnman\", \"Mrpussycat\", \"Evil\" and names that create a sentence with firstname + lastname, i.e. \"Leet Dude\", \"ImA God\", etc.
Character names composed of common nouns, verbs and adjectives, or titles should be avoided as much as possible.
Players violating rules #4 and 5 will be permanently banned:
4. Words percieved as insults to any race, gender, ethnic origin, nationality, religion, politicians, actors, artists. This includes backwards and misspelled words that deliberately resemble a insult.
5. Names that contain swears and are obviously made to provoke.
Impersonations, especially of members of PS team or PS community, and names percieved as insults to members of PS team or PS community.
While it is true that:
Eiffel is a trademark of the Nonprofit International Consortium for Eiffel (NICE).
Eiffel seems an origional enough name to me. But hey I\'m not a GM/mod, I can still get my head through the main gates.
Had his name been Eiffel Tower I could understand, but otherwise, GEEZE!
If we go this far with name changes then we should outlaw names like Richard, or John, or Henry, as these were names used by KINGs, - in fact we should outlaw ALL names that exist in the Real World. (cough cough). It seems some name changes are the arbitrary whim of a GM who either takes things WAY too seriously, or has been corrupted by the power.
Hey I have an idea! We create a random name generator thats only rule is that it can\'t arrange letters in the form of a word that occurs in any language ever. The Maximegalon Dictionary of Every Language Ever could be helpful here. We would end up with AWSOME names like:
Xgybrome Fompila
FroanZoa Demaquiet
and MANY MANY MORE!!!!! Yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My origional name ingame was Stugador Induane, but I was forced to change it. Now I\'m Induane Lasumi. Our guild mates name was Ishita, but was forced to change it to Isitar.
Where are you supposed to find a name that doesn\'t occur in the real world? Everything origional in this world is really a regurgitation of something that came before, or an evolution of it. True origionality is a rarity, something that occurs in breif flashes of genius, and while PS is definately unique it isn\'t completely origional.
Sincerely,
Brant Allen Poe Watson <---- This is my real name and I\'m not
changing it, sorry.
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I agree with Induane, as someone once said: \"originality is dead\", like it or not every name and concept in fantasy stories derrived from something so you shouldn\'t really change names unless they are utterly stupid
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Roleplay
* Naming Policy
In the fantasy world of PlaneShift, players are encouraged to roleplay as much as possible in order to become fully immersed in the setting of the game. To assist this goal, these player naming standards have been created. The general rule is that the names must be compatible with the RPG style and spirit.
All names violating #1, 2 and 3 will be changed by a GM sooner or later. If the player subsequently violates these terms again, they will be banned from the game:
1. Names of popular book/film/game characters, widely known politicians, countries, movements and their leaders, religion, religion leaders or religious figures, actors, artists and trademarks.
2. Parts of the name that have a cultural connotation incompatible with the RPG style as defined in the Planeshift Fantasy/Medieval setting should be avoided. Included, but not exhaustive, are: references to the cyber-culture, existing religions, politics, history, slang, ... The fact that the name part is in another language than English doesn\'t exclude it from this rule.
3. Stupid names, like \"Spawnman\", \"Mrpussycat\", \"Evil\" and names that create a sentence with firstname + lastname, i.e. \"Leet Dude\", \"ImA God\", etc.
Character names composed of common nouns, verbs and adjectives, or titles should be avoided as much as possible.
Players violating rules #4 and 5 will be permanently banned:
4. Words percieved as insults to any race, gender, ethnic origin, nationality, religion, politicians, actors, artists. This includes backwards and misspelled words that deliberately resemble a insult.
5. Names that contain swears and are obviously made to provoke.
Impersonations, especially of members of PS team or PS community, and names percieved as insults to members of PS team or PS community.
Under this logic they need to change my name
Aranis= Strong leader .... history Aranis is the name of the leader of the second army of guardians. That is part of the religion passed down to me from my ancestors. So I guess I can not use that name. Tell you what as long as someone doesn\'t outright call themselves god then let have some logic please.
Aranis
(or for the more planeshift correctness people out there....thayinmywhe) hope that works
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(or for the more planeshift correctness people out there....thayinmywhe) hope that works
Yep that works great - I\'ve been thinking about changing my ingame name to:
Buiolpuqut Porbmenmegha
You don\'t think its too long do you?
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Aaaaa.. if thats true... /me thinks about my own name. Valbrandr is actually an Old Norse name if I am not mistaken. And my guild.. Sentinels of the Ragnarok... whoops. Shhhh.. dont tell anyone.. pleasssssseeeeee.
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Look, their human. They misjudge and make mistakes just like you. I\'m sure you wouldn\'t turn out to be the perfect little GM either. And I think that Moogie will be doing the whole community good if she just closes this thread. Because beleive it or not, Your getting extremely close to flaming GMs. Thats unappropriate. And calls for locking a thread.
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Robinmagus makes a good point which I wasn\'t too clear on myself. First off I wasn\'t refering to all GM\'s/MODs, Part of my post was lost as I accidentally hit a browser button and forgot to add it back in when I redid my post.
One point I intended to make was that the Mods/GM\'s are human as well and thus prone to the same problems as all other humans. When a person loses site of their real responsibility, then it is the job of the people to steer them back in the right direction. Making fun isn\'t really a good way as it breeds defensiveness, but sometimes it takes a little coersion or a slap in the face to get someones attention.
Sorry if I came across as against all Mods/GM\'s, its just a few people who may possibly be abusing their power in a way that isn\'t really in the best interests of PlaneShift. That should be the primary concern of anyone in those authority positions, and they should try to be as impartial about it as possible, though no one can be completely as we all have our own biases.
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got an opinion against what GM\'s are willingly to enforce in their own time?
talk to the creators, developers. making a useless thread is not getting anyone anywhere except giving a few people a reason to flame... and raise their post count so they feel superior.
y\'know, if you don\'t like how a GM tries to enforce what they are asked to, you can also approach them ingame about it, I\'m sure they will be happy to explain any reason behind their work, as it is all fair and clear, but i warn you this, don\'t approach them with the attitude you give out on the forum, you will be warned repeatedly muted and so forth for such discerning behaviour.
now, to those leaving, godspeed, or whatever suits you best.
to those staying but still complaining, make a decision, deal with it, form a complaint to someone who can do something about it, or leave, like others have.
to those staying that are trying to show the honesty and hard work put into making this game good, thank you, but in all, the more you try to persuade that we\'re not evil the more they will complain, its how they do their thing.
this has been an informal, too early in the morning post by Demarthl.
goodnight
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Originally posted by Demarthl
y\'know, if you don\'t like how a GM tries to enforce what they are asked to, you can also approach them ingame about it, I\'m sure they will be happy to explain any reason behind their work, as it is all fair and clear, but i warn you this, don\'t approach them with the attitude you give out on the forum, you will be warned repeatedly muted and so forth for such discerning behaviour.
Why can the forums not be used for this exact thing? (see: the Pking sub-forum, really cleared that stuff up..though I guess you wouldn\'t know) I fail to see the horrible difference in someone posting on a forum (where, in fact, they do not have to hunt the GM down) what their problems are, why it is a problem, and the way they think it can be resolved.
Great arguments have been made here, but they\'re completely ignored and the people are told to approach these people individually in places the person they\'re talking to practically have complete control over, which does nothing more but inconvenience everyone.
The arguments submitted by the person are the same, as would be the reply, except for some reason the forums can not be used. The only difference being, people can then disagree with what the GM did...but shouldn\'t they want to know if the entire community disagrees with their actions, as they are supposedly working to better RPing for PLANESHIFT and not themselves?
This is an honest question, as you will note I did not flame nor insult anyone. Also, I\'m aware that this post I have made will amount to nothing and that you are not the correct person to be asking, don\'t point this out because it is not the reason behind the post. It sucks I have to say that, but eh.
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y\'know, if you don\'t like how a GM tries to enforce what they are asked to, you can also approach them ingame about it, I\'m sure they will be happy to explain any reason behind their work, as it is all fair and clear, but i warn you this, don\'t approach them with the attitude you give out on the forum, you will be warned repeatedly muted and so forth for such discerning behaviour.
Actually I have tried this a number of occasions, attempting to be as polite as possible while simply asking questions. For instance I was grouped with a friend who was considering joining our guild. His name was completely normal sounding in that it wasn\'t anything that obviously violated the naming conventions. A GM came to discuss a new name because it didn\'t \"fit\" the RP style of PS. I asked \"What is wrong with the name that it doesn\'t fit?\" The GM told me if I didn\'t stay out of it then I would get muted or banned. This has happened several times. My questions to that nature were brushed off in the same manner. It was not only rude, but it didn\'t get anything done. I didn\'t learn about why the name didn\'t fit, I didn\'t learn what it takes to do a PS style name, thus making the whole encounter pointless.
People need to feel like they can talk to GM\'s, and to not feel like they are going to be judged because of their opinion.
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This all comes to one thing, devs, make it harder to be a gm. I doubt anyojne will disagree with that except a gm that may lose their power from the rule.
I was in the sewers once and saw a gm standing right next to somone name cheeseburgur or somthing and talking to him about some site or somthing like that. I asked the gm what he was doing bla bla bla we argued. Some gms are gms and dont even know the rules.
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I think Phinehas so far made the best point - if the current choices for GMs are hard to agree to, more people should try to attain GM status who think they can do a better job. Personally I still think that occurances such as the rude behavior by GMs made in several posts here should be logged in some form (a screenshot at least) so that the player has some proof of abuse of power. If enough of these gather against a particular GM, then it becomes easier to point to something clearly wrong, and proper actions can be taken. I sincerely apologize for my \"throwing random complaints into the wind\" comment, I realize how it might\'ve sounded to someone already frustrated over the situation. However, being a bit more organized in collecting instances of rudeness or power abuse will ultimately help the players in the long-run.
I don\'t think that threads like these in the forums will achieve much, unfortunately. They will gather players of similar views and opposing views, but not too many people who actually have the powers to change the situation. I know people need a channel to just vent sometimes, and if this is the sole purpose of threads against GMs or naming policies, I could understand that. But if someone really wants change, then forum threads are not the best approach.
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*looks up at thread and sniffs*
I\'m so proud.
Anyway, I was originally planning on posting my own comments about the posts that I find intriguing. I\'m not going to bother. However... I will mention that I think Induane has a good grasp of the situation, and Kiern\'s a great flamer. More power to them. Also, there are some serious mistakes in Demarthl\'s post, most of which were pointed out. And Robinmagus is... nevermind, I decided not to say it, although not a direct insult, it might have come across offensively. Karyuu is nice, but a little naive. That is all. You can now go back to your pitiful little lives.
Oh, and in the spirit of the thing... \"Phinehas\" is from the Bible, so the name should be erased. I was thinking of just going with some grunting, but that\'s probably copyrighted by cavemen. From now on, you will know me as Mooraloorah III.
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Gm recruitement has already changed, as has naming policy and some other aspects of how we work.
it\'s just down to you now to pull off that shroud of stereotypical grudges, forgive, forget, start anew eh?
Karyuu has a good point of take screnshots, its only solid proof atm of power abuse, as itsa pita to edit for the players benefit, logs can be edited too easily, and word of mouth has no proof, but still its better then doing nothing, just, do it in the way its supposed to be done.
Ok now I\'m going to let this die, hope everyone else does too
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Just to back up what Dem and Karyuu said, if you have any proof of GMs abusing power, please contact other GMs or Devs. We want to stop any such abuses more then even players do, as it gives us more work, and contradicts everything we stand for.
As to comments that Gms are young or power abusive or picked at random... seriously, where are you getting this from? GMs are selected after a very grueling proces that many have not passed already. Every single GM we have now has been playing for atleast the 6 months of CB, if not much much longer. And what pwoers do you expect us to abuse? There is no thrill of combat when you don\'t suffer damage, no point to adventuring when you got there by using an OOC power. I don\'t see how anyone could get a thrill out of renaming somone.
Kiern: if you don\'t even know what Moogie is, you are in no postion to talk about anything. You are even in less of a postion to tell Dem he is doing a bad job when you have seen none of his work.
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Originally posted by zabeal
Kiern: if you don\'t even know what Moogie is, you are in no postion to talk about anything. You are even in less of a postion to tell Dem he is doing a bad job when you have seen none of his work.
What the hell is wrong with you people? I have flamed absolutely NO ONE in this thread. And never once have I accused Demarthl (or anyone else directly) of being a bad GM, simply because I do not play the game...I just happen to not like the guy on the forums.
My posts have all been related to the GM situation here on the board, because honestly that is all I care about. How does it matter what Mogura is in-game if it is in no way related to that? Though it is pretty apparent that these posts are ignored because no one with an opposing viewpoint can find real fault with them...I even asked a direct question and was completely ignored.
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The arguments submitted by the person are the same, as would be the reply, except for some reason the forums can not be used. The only difference being, people can then disagree with what the GM did...but shouldn\'t they want to know if the entire community disagrees with their actions, as they are supposedly working to better RPing for PLANESHIFT and not themselves?
I think this is what you are referring to.
Note that Demarthl said that
you can also approach them ingame about it
(in my opinion) referring to the fact that there are more than just a few people who do not seek the dialogue directly.
The reason why in general the forums are considered a bad place for those discussions, because they easily lose focus with too many originally uninvolved participants, and tend to get way overstated.
By now I can\'t even remember the exact name of the person who started that thread, and if I have to read one more of Phinehas\' exaggerated \"examples\", I\'ll rip my own arm out just to have something to throw at him. (insert winking smiley here)
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Originally posted by Pogopuschel
The reason why in general the forums are considered a bad place for those discussions, because they easily lose focus with too many originally uninvolved participants, and tend to get way overstated.
I can understand that, but the main point I was trying to get across (and probably didn\'t do it so well) is that there needs to be some sort of neutral ground for people to talk to GMs.
Approaching them in-game where they can simply ignore you (can there be logs of people not saying anything?), threaten to mute or ban you, etc. doesn\'t seem to me to be the best system for this.
Now, the other part of my post which I mixed in was my suggestion about the forums was that there was a sub-forum for these complaints. This wouldn\'t exactly solve the problem, because I agree this is not the ideal place for these things. But, face it, they\'re going to continue popping up whether it is allowed or not. And as long as the complaint is made out in a reasonable manner it shouldn\'t be that hard to answer it. (the difference between a reasonable complaint and one that isn\'t is obviously very clear and the flames can be easily deleted). For example, eiffel\'s post was very clear and reasonable, and he even consented in the end once he got an answer.
Likewise, there are many good complaints about the way the naming system is, and on the forums others can build off of these complaints (no one will deny that it\'s not perfect) and that way you get a system instead of the same complaints over and over because no one knows what has been pointed out to the GMs (same with Moderators).
Once again, my posts have more to do with the forums then cleaning up the GM system, I don\'t know much about that so I try not to comment on it. Having every other thread locked/deleted once a discussion starts just isn\'t good. Like this thread, is it actually harming the forum community by having it here?
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Why do so many feel the needs to take the side of the mods and gms? For one, every gm or mod should not take offense because we are not outright accusing everyone. Just a select few who we have left, for the most part, unnamed. Are there really so many naive people around here that they can deny that some abuse has occured? Just count the number of people who have left this community because of it. Too many in the ten months I have been here.
And please, to anyone else who is going to post after me, dont say, \"Well you can just leave if you dont like it.\" Why, because a few would like to complain about it? Thats what Eiffell was told... If he didnt like the fact that his name was changed... he could just leave and find another community. That is not fair. He was just wondering why his name was changed. Thats it. He didnt come out and attack anyone, actually he was quite polite.
By now I can\'t even remember the exact name of the person who started that thread
Well, I do. It is a friend of mine, Aranis. He has always been good to me, never complained to me about anything, and is just an all around polite person to be around. Its not just some person who unfairly made accusations.
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Originally posted by Valbrandr
Why do so many feel the needs to take the side of the mods and gms?
Because just as there are those who have had nothing but negative experiences with Mods and GMs, there are those who have had nothing but positive. People tend to choose sides based on their experience first, and only once they reach an understanding of the other side, do those opinions begin to change. I don\'t see why it\'s hard to think that not everyone has a complaint against those with authority, even while the complaints of others may be valid.
For one, every gm or mod should not take offense because we are not outright accusing everyone. Just a select few who we have left, for the most part, unnamed.
If the complaints are not against the GM/Mod system entirely but against a select few people, there must be a better way of dealing with it. Vague threads achieve very little but eat away at the nerves of all parties. I will have to go with Kiern\'s suggestion of a sub-forum as well. Many forums of successful games have a section where individuals can voice complaints against GM behavior - and this way instead of involving those that are uninvolved, the only parties to attempt to resolve the issues will be the players and GMs/Mods. There are no doubts that players may experience difficulty with resolving issues in-game, and not everyone has access to IRC (or feels it is worth downloading an entire client for a single GM issue). So my vote goes in the subforum direction, if it even means anything. The least we can do is try it out, and go back if it doesn\'t work.
Are there really so many naive people around here that they can deny that some abuse has occured?
I don\'t think anyone here has denied anything, and you probably realize this.
Just count the number of people who have left this community because of it. Too many in the ten months I have been here.
While we are a closely-knit community for the most part, everyone does not know everyone else. Several who have left the game were not regulars on the forum, or those who were on the forums rarely showed up in-game. So not everyone is familiar with who left and who didn\'t. Occasional goodbye-threads do pop up here and those are the ones that are remembered most clearly. However, I myself am unaware of the numbers you probably have in mind, and I don\'t think you can place much blame in anyone for this ignorance.
And please, to anyone else who is going to post after me, dont say, \"Well you can just leave if you dont like it.\" Why, because a few would like to complain about it? Thats what Eiffell was told... If he didnt like the fact that his name was changed... he could just leave and find another community. That is not fair. He was just wondering why his name was changed. Thats it. He didnt come out and attack anyone, actually he was quite polite.
Very polite, in fact much more polite than the people who posted after him trying to defend his right to his name. He accepted the decision of the GM who renamed him, while others continued to argue for his case. I\'m not stating that we should have no freedom at all to discuss such issues, but if the person to originally start the discussion has pretty much ended that specific issue, I believe there are no further reasons to continue it.
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By now I can\'t even remember the exact name of the person who started that thread, and if I have to read one more of Phinehas\' exaggerated \"examples\", I\'ll rip my own arm out just to have something to throw at him. (insert winking smiley here)
Ah, my adoring public!
*yawn*
Ok people. This is boring now. Knock it off.
I knew I should have just let this thread be. But no... I had to post, didn\'t I? I had to make a point, didn\'t I? Why is it that I seem to be the only one who can argue without feeling personally involved? I argue for the fun of arguing, as soon as tempers fray, it just gets annoying.
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Phinehas is right, once things start getting personal, then the argument cannot progress in a manner that is condusive to finding a solution. Intelligent discussion of a problem invariably leads to some people getting overly involved and taking certain points personally.
He accepted the decision of the GM who renamed him, while others continued to argue for his case. I\'m not stating that we should have no freedom at all to discuss such issues, but if the person to originally start the discussion has pretty much ended that specific issue, I believe there are no further reasons to continue it.
I do have to take a logical issue with this comment however, as it is flawed. Simply because the person whose name was changed has accepted it does not mean that the problem no longer exists or that there is no need to discuss it. This is incorrect, it is simply ignoring the problem because the person complaining about it is no longer vocalizing his/her complaints. This doesn\'t work. If someone killed someones husband, they are eventually going to cool down and accept the death, and not really vocalize it anymore. That doesn\'t mean the law enforcement shouldn\'t still track down this person as they could still be a danger to other people.
Because just as there are those who have had nothing but negative experiences with Mods and GMs, there are those who have had nothing but positive. People tend to choose sides based on their experience first, and only once they reach an understanding of the other side, do those opinions begin to change. I don\'t see why it\'s hard to think that not everyone has a complaint against those with authority, even while the complaints of others may be valid.
I don\'t think anyone ever stated (/me rescans thread) that everyone takes issue with the current authority. I may be wrong but I doubt it.
Just to back up what Dem and Karyuu said, if you have any proof of GMs abusing power, please contact other GMs or Devs. We want to stop any such abuses more then even players do, as it gives us more work, and contradicts everything we stand for.
Where is the proper place to report this? The thread for ingame abuse seems to be directed towards helping the GM\'s find people who are causing problems ingame, not for them to address issues within their own ranks. Perhaps a new stick could be added under that for such reports, with it being moderated by someone who is not currently a GM, as that would be a conflict of interest. If people knew where to go when such issues occurred, then they could easily post their issues. GM\'s, knowing that there is now a small check on their power, might be persuaded to be more impartial and have less temptation to abuse power (Once again this isn\'t directed at EVERY GM/MOD, Just the small percent who may not be acting in the best interests of PS).
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Originally posted by Induane
Where is the proper place to report this? The thread for ingame abuse seems to be directed towards helping the GM\'s find people who are causing problems ingame, not for them to address issues within their own ranks. Perhaps a new stick could be added under that for such reports, with it being moderated by someone who is not currently a GM, as that would be a conflict of interest. If people knew where to go when such issues occurred, then they could easily post their issues. GM\'s, knowing that there is now a small check on their power, might be persuaded to be more impartial and have less temptation to abuse power (Once again this isn\'t directed at EVERY GM/MOD, Just the small percent who may not be acting in the best interests of PS).
Well, would not an abusive GM be someone ingame causing problems? Keep in mind, not all GMs even read this forum let alone post or read every forum. Moogie is the only person who is both a GM and a moderater here, and infact she falls in the catagory of devs who have offered to help moderate in game. So you could feel free to post comments about GMs here, as long as it was specific- previous threads have been locked because they amounted to saying \"all GMs suck!!\" That isn\'t productive anyway you look at it.
So what can be done? Well, any Dev outranks a GM, so feel free to try and ocontact them anywheres, here on the forum, or thru email. But as I said before, you can trust other GMs to be fair- if I heard of a GM, for example, renaming everyone on the plaza at random, then I would do everything I can to get them removed.
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Originally posted by Induane
Simply because the person whose name was changed has accepted it does not mean that the problem no longer exists or that there is no need to discuss it.
My point was that I felt there was no need to discuss that specific example, with Eiffell. Of course this is a personal opinion. But using a murder analogy? Murder breaks the law while the naming rules enforce the current \"law.\" And you have to admit the GM who wanted to rename the guy was following rules, since they state that names having anything to do with places (however remote) are to be avoided. So maybe we should concentrate on changing/tweaking the rules more instead of changing GMs.
I don\'t think anyone ever stated (/me rescans thread) that everyone takes issue with the current authority. I may be wrong but I doubt it.
But I didn\'t state that -everyone- takes issue, either ;) I simply said there are those who do, and those who don\'t.
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Originally posted by Phinehas
By now I can\'t even remember the exact name of the person who started that thread, and if I have to read one more of Phinehas\' exaggerated \"examples\", I\'ll rip my own arm out just to have something to throw at him. (insert winking smiley here)
Ah, my adoring public!
*yawn*
Ok people. This is boring now. Knock it off.
I knew I should have just let this thread be. But no... I had to post, didn\'t I? I had to make a point, didn\'t I? Why is it that I seem to be the only one who can argue without feeling personally involved? I argue for the fun of arguing, as soon as tempers fray, it just gets annoying.
If with those tempers you were referring to my posting, there are less of those involved than you might think.
If you want to argue, stick to facts. You\'ll notice it keeps people\'s temper down, whether they agree with you or argue against you.
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Well... before this thread dies, let me put some life to it too ;)
(this post should probably go to \"Wish list\" section, or maybe \"Bugs\" ;) , but i will follow the rule \"better to post in existing thread\" )
What was the topic ?... \"Time for a Vacation\"
[half-seriously]
You are on vacation. You have lots of free time, so You decide to spend considerable amount of it on playing Planeshift.
You have really good time today. You feel, that it is the best roleplaying session You ever had. You are totally immersed in the world of Yliakum.
Suddenly...
...in the middle of most interesting action...
... big, orange (red/pink/yellow/whatever) letters appear, forming the words:
Game Masters
\"Aaaaarrgghh.... noooooo..... He ruined everything.... It is only the game ?!....\"
\"grrrr.....\"
/petition The name of the guild \"Game Masters\" disrupts my roleplaying. Pretty please, make the guild master of this guild change its name.
[/half-seriously]
[seriously]
In my opinion, the term \"game master\" is misused. Let\'s ask wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_master
\"Ah. Yes. This is it. The real meaning of \"Game master\".
\"What\'s this ?\" (/me read the last paragraph)
\"Oh. So this is, what game masters are in MMORPG... Poor, miserable beings...\"
[/seriously]
[half-seriously]
\"Ah... I see. Poor, miserable beings...\"
/you delete the petition
/you turn off guild labels
After short deliberation /you turn off character labels as well
After considering little more /you turn on \"show on mouse\" option
\"Well, it should be good compromise...\"
[/half-seriously]
[seriously]
1. Name \"Game Masters\" does not follow naming rules (it is NOT proper fantasy name).
2. PS aims for originality.
3. Most of current \"game masters\" are only to keep an order.
Why not choose other name(s) for game masters guild(s) ? For example \"Peace Keepers\", or \"Yliakum Guards\", or \"Knights of Order\" ... (instead of ranks in \"game masters\" guild)
Usually I keep away from characters with \"Game Masters\" above their head. Why? Probably I can\'t explain it clearly (apart from the reason mentioned above), the cause is hidden somewhere in my sub-consiousness.
The real Game Masters in PS are administrators and developers (and probably most powerfull \"game masters\" ). They posses full control over the world. They decide, whether You can roll 1-sided die for 1, or 3270-sided die for... 1 :D
[/seriously]
Cheers.
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While GMs are meant to encourage roleplay, they themselves are completely OOC - the reason several of them get away with OOC names (which I personally disagree with). They cannot roleplay while trying to change someone\'s obnoxious name, or OOC guild. They cannot roleplay while they unstick someone from a glitched area, because they are they to insure that the roleplay of players between players goes as smoothly as possible (in theory). They are there to weed out the trouble makers - and roleplay is not something they can engage in while doing so.
Certainly many of them, Platyna especially, have promoted GM-run quests and roleplay sessions, but that is not what they are here to do, really.
Besides, I believe guilds with the titles of Peace Keepers or Yliakum Guards exist already (unless I\'m horribly late and they\'ve disbanded). And \"Game Masters\" is very obvious that they are not regular players and have the ability to rename, delete, or move characters. If they were named with a more roleplay title, it would be confusing for new players.
All in all, GMs are OOC.
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Originally posted by Karyuu
[...] If they were named with a more roleplay title, it would be confusing for new players.
All in all, GMs are OOC.
This sums it up perfectly. I believe that some time in February this name discussion was already there (internally), and the reasons listed by Karyuu were actually those that are responsible for the decision.
Why at all a GM guild? I\'d like to answer that question before it might get asked:
There was the need for GMs to communicate online as a group. Forming a guild was an easy way to do that without causing the need to change the software.
Adressing a special point:
3. Most of current \"game masters\" are only to keep an order.
At least those with the most time online focus on that. The high level GMs = administrators that you speak of do exist of course, and can usually be \'summoned\' if needed. As (most of) those are the same people who also develop the game, they are naturally not so often on the public server just to \"hang out\".
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But using a murder analogy?
You are correct the analogy was not the best, I was just trying to use an extreme example. A better example would be a police officer abusing his power in one way or another - an authority figure causing problems. I was using flawed logic. ;)
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Originally posted by Pogopuschel
Originally posted by Phinehas
By now I can\'t even remember the exact name of the person who started that thread, and if I have to read one more of Phinehas\' exaggerated \"examples\", I\'ll rip my own arm out just to have something to throw at him. (insert winking smiley here)
Ah, my adoring public!
*yawn*
Ok people. This is boring now. Knock it off.
I knew I should have just let this thread be. But no... I had to post, didn\'t I? I had to make a point, didn\'t I? Why is it that I seem to be the only one who can argue without feeling personally involved? I argue for the fun of arguing, as soon as tempers fray, it just gets annoying.
If with those tempers you were referring to my posting, there are less of those involved than you might think.
If you want to argue, stick to facts. You\'ll notice it keeps people\'s temper down, whether they agree with you or argue against you.
Nope, wasn\'t talking about you. Run along and play now.
How did this conversation turn into a discussion of the \"guild\" game masters? That\'s just lame, and not the issue at hand anyways. I don\'t think anyone really cares if there\'s a guild or not. If they do, then they have problems.
*sits back to watch the GM\'s aggressively defend themselves against experienced players*
This is getting old. Have we even reached a single helpful solution in this argument, or is everyone still just sticking obstinately to their own point of view?
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Mikewsnc:
You know what I am sorry to have to go here but this is a public thread. It is an open thread. This is a place to talk about anything as long as you dont outright flame,curse, or just stait up be an ---. So I have the right to voice my opinion here. OPINION that seems to be a common voice among many planeshifters.
Sorry, wrong. I\'ll say it again, instead of deleting this thread: Discussions on GM behavour/issues/abuse/etc are not a valid topic of discussion on the forum. Read below.
Karyuu:
If you have complaints against GM behavior and have specific logs to back it up, Acraig has stated many times that he is more than willing to take a look. He has provided an email address in previous threads which you can use to submit the logs. No logs? Stick around until you think you have something of value to show. Otherwise, throwing random complaints into the wind is unfortunately no good.
This has been stated before.