PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: Andrek on July 25, 2005, 10:46:43 pm
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Sorry if this has been posted, I could not find it in a search.
I think that being trained by PC\'s of a higher rank in skill thank you should be allowed.
WHY:
1. This will give players a chance to exchange service for tria
2. This gives a good start for the barter system
3. The economy could start to grow
4. Older players could teach the new ones their style of fighting, mining, spellcasting (ie RolePlaying)
5. Competitive Pricing which drives prices down on training... (you will still have control of the physical goods ie glyphs, weapons, armor, etc...)
6. How many master swordsmen/smiths/cooks would train their apprentices back in the day... it will transfer over.
I like the idea please give all feedback.
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This will lead in situations like guild leaders giving their members training for free, while others waste tria and PP. That gives those people a totally unfair advantage. Since the trainer has to pick his own price/barter guess what. Theres no stopping him from taking 1 tria every level and then giving that back to the person. Its a no. Sorry. Later. Bye. Cya.
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This is true... though you could ask all the guild leaders not to do so... if caught the guild could be put on probation. If it happens again it could be disbanded.
Now that is a little extreme, but as well SOME free training could be used as a guild tool for recruitment (limit it). Possibly you cannot train unless you have at least a rank 5 higher than the person asking to be trained. I don\' t think it would be to bad.
Just some food for thought.
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But if you are training your guild members you want some services back in exchage. So you just choose a different way of payment.
Otherwise you would train anybody for free, or am I missing something?
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Now that is a little extreme, but as well SOME free training could be used as a guild tool for recruitment (limit it).
Did I miss something or did you just say that leaders could use free training to get people in their guild? To bribe new members? Eh? have you no shame!? Any guild leader that does/suggests that deserves to be banned/overthrown. Now..If you didn\'t mean that, please, explain.
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Anyway, what exactly would the training be like?
Normally characters advance by practicing thier skills, at least it is what I would expect. What would the training be like?
Perhaps practicing while quided by a more skilled teacher could yield faster advances. And there could be a teaching skill that further increases the bonus ;)
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What\'s wrong with leaders bribing new members?
I guess that\'s what guilds are for. They can provide some services to you and require you to provide something back.
Anyway, the leader would still put some effort into the teaching. So if he needs the new members so badly, why not?
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This would be great, realistic and logical idea, but:
As Talamir told, it will lead to training for free and generally most of the people will use it in the wrong way.
Unless there will be some good working idea to prevent all this, what isn\'t happying in real and what is in MMORPGS, there is nothing to talk about.
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Originally posted by Talamir
Now that is a little extreme, but as well SOME free training could be used as a guild tool for recruitment (limit it).
Did I miss something or did you just say that leaders could use free training to get people in their guild? To bribe new members? Eh? have you no shame!? Any guild leader that does/suggests that deserves to be banned/overthrown. Now..If you didn\'t mean that, please, explain.
Sorry, for another payment besides Tria.
I think that a guild leader or any Character that knows swordsmanship, Mining, or Spellcasting could do this. They could charge less, or require some service.
It opens the doors to good RP. \"Yeah I\'ll teach you to use fire, but those pesky cats keep getting up on my roof. Put some oil up there and I will help you with fire magic.\" \"Mining is a dwarven thing... you wouldn\'t get it, though if you bring me a few grobble fingers I may consider it.\" \"I need some gold ore for a new weapon idea, bring me 4 of them and I will train you.\"
Think about it....
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Originally posted by Andrek
It opens the doors to good RP. \"Yeah I\'ll teach you to use fire, but those pesky cats keep getting up on my roof. Put some oil up there and I will help you with fire magic.\" \"Mining is a dwarven thing... you wouldn\'t get it, though if you bring me a few grobble fingers I may consider it.\" \"I need some gold ore for a new weapon idea, bring me 4 of them and I will train you.\"
It also opens up the door to in game scamming as well. It seems to be that people might try to take advantage of it, like making you do things and give them stuff and not train you in return or vice versa.
Not that the PS community would do such a thing, because to be honest this is probebly one of the BEST communities I\'ve seen in a long time. Probebly because all the people who would act in such a rude manor wouldn\'t bother to play such a \"sucky game like planeshift\" not realizing it\'s still in development. But still, despite this, at some point in the future this could possibily be used in such a way so we would need a system to prevent/counter it.
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I actually think this is a cool idea, Andrek. I think it would add immensely to the RP and would enable more accomplished players to \"pass-along\" their skills.
I don\'t see why one couldn\'t structure in a \"Fair Market Value\" system into this to help curb abuses.
I do understand some of the concern--this is a very free-market concept and such systems do not function well in the absence of a moral framework.
For example, if I were a member of a Guild (currently training but not there yet), I would still be delighted to spend time working with a Newbie to help him/her progress quicker. My hope would be they would want to follow in my footsteps, but hey it\'s a free world and I can\'t force him/her to do anything, right? If they didn\'t \"take up the cause,\" as it were, it\'s my own fault if I didn\'t get something in return for my efforts.
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You cannot dismiss everything that could possibly be abused. If we did so, there would be nothing in the game.
It is always so with services that you cannot enforce that people do get what they paid for. It is the same with teaching, smithing, or anything else.
The only thing that prevents scamming is bad reputation of the scammer. There is nothing else that could be done AFAIK.
It becomes bad when the number of people playing in overlapping timezones gets over some hundreds. Before that the reputation works quite well.
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What is AFAIK?
Now I understand it could be abused and bad reps will occur. This is part of the game. There could be lists in taverns or city squares that will tell you such things. But they need to be reported and investigated by leadership (ie GM\'s and such), courts could happen and thus more good story could play out.
As well punishment should happen for falsely accusing people.
JM2C
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Originally posted by Andrek
What is AFAIK?
That means \"as far as I know\". There\'s allot of \'Net abbreviations, though I usually restrict myself to \"aka\" and \"btw\". (Come on people... just type things out... :P )
Here\'s a link to the forums FAQ listing the common ones. (http://www.planeshift3d.com/wbboard/misc2.php?action=faq&page=3&boardid=11#shortings)
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The ability for players to train players is not only already possible, but is in use now in-game. Those with the ability are a rare occurrence at the moment, as I\'m still trying to figure out how to best make this work and minimize the things that can go wrong with it. It is not something that can be attained by any player yet through game mechanics, it must be manually assigned by an admin. It also does not work as dynamically now as I\'d like for it to. This will be a WIP for some time yet, but I think it will come eventually. Player trainers will be scarce, as I don\'t think it should be handed to just anyone who wants to. Sort of like hidden masters that train beyond NPC ability or train obscure/rare skill aspects that can\'t be obtained anywhere else. This can also be an avenue for impromptu player-made quests in exchange for said special training.
Details on player training will not be forthcoming anytime soon; those who watch the codebase commits will probably know before the rest of you when support for this gets implemented. Key words there being \"not.. ..soon\". ;)
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Andrek, even IF that system was \"fair-valued\", people would still be making mis-use of it.
For example, a trainer could camp next to a tefusang, while his trainee kills the tefusang, and immediately buys the needed skills. All while the trainer exchanges money to his trainee.
That would spoil the idea of \"traveling to your trainer\".
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This is what liberty is all about. There will be those who would abuse it like that. But why take that right away from them. Keep it freeform. They still need to train... But whatever.
As well DarkMoon brought up a good point. I like the idea of select PC\'s getting the opportunity. A guy that spend most of his time smithing weapons could be granted this ability. A guy that trains with a single sword predominatly could train sword use. Miners that have spent most of their time in the mines could train miners. So limit it. That is good.
Besides rauz... we are in the pre-alpha stage, lets test it to see if it is a good or bad thing... :P lol :D
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Originally posted by Andrek
This is what liberty is all about. There will be those who would abuse it like that. But why take that right away from them. Keep it freeform. They still need to train... But whatever.
Well.. because the PL\'ers will be able to level up even faster :).
As well DarkMoon brought up a good point. I like the idea of select PC\'s getting the opportunity. A guy that spend most of his time smithing weapons could be granted this ability. A guy that trains with a single sword predominatly could train sword use. Miners that have spent most of their time in the mines could train miners. So limit it. That is good.
Okay.. that is maybe a good point, but when do you know if one uses alot of sword skill? You could just make an arrangement with someone who has 30 LA skill and hit him all the time while he always dodges. Does that make him use his sword skill alot?
Besides rauz... we are in the pre-alpha stage, lets test it to see if it is a good or bad thing... :P lol :D
Heh :D.
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I would like the teaching to be less restricted. That way, anybody who is (relatively) good at something could take an apprentice if they wish.
Now you can still take an apprentice even if you cannot teach but there is not much point. Except perhaps hunter apprentices could get some protection from the stronger animals by their master :)
And they would learn where to find the animals.
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The problem that comes from guildies teaching new players is that:
a) These new players would advance so quickly in the stats that they would bypass roleplaying.
b) Encourages power-leveling (which sucks).
c) We would see an influx of guilds solely made to teach all the professions quickly. Not a good idea. :/
If this were to be implemented, I would suggest that the \"teacher\" would have to teach a number of times to a student for just one level. This would be free but you could only teach once every half-hour or so (i.e. A student in real life could only learn a certain amount of stuff from a teacher in a set amount of time.). Also, until a student has gotten to the next rank, he/she could only be taught by one \"teacher\". This would stop power-levelers running around to different people to level up quickly.
I feel that if it followed those kind of rules, being taught by other players would be a viable roleplay alternative to being taught by NPC\'s without there being an advantage by going to players to gain ranks.
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I never propsed that teaching should magically add new experience.
I only suggest that while practicing improves your skills, praticing while overseen by a good teacher improves them much faster.
But it requires personal attention of the teacher, it is not free for him.
This makes it viable to be apprentice hunter for example - if you go out two, you can carry more furs, which would make the hunting more profitable for the master, and you will progress faster as an apprentice than you would on your own.
Teaching several people at once should only be possible when they are much less skilled than the teacher and the teacher has some teaching experience.
Teaching new members of a guild (in return for them to join the guild\'s cause) is the same as teaching random strangers for money or some other services, or even for free.
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hramrach... Good idea there, KISS you need to train once per level/rank you are obtaining. So to go from 2-3 you would need to train 3 times and the time limit would do great. As well if you keep the time limit off of the NPC\'s you would have your option to spend more for less time. Take your choice!
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Yeah, that\'s what I was thinking. Having the choice to spend your money for a professional NPC to teach you, or have a PC teacher help you but at the cost of time instead of money.
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But there would still be payment.
Friendship, food, tria, assistance on a massive quest, etc...
right?
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Andrek:
Once you allow teaching, you cannot ensure payment. It is up to the teacher (and the apprentice).
However, most teachers would probably want some sort of payment, or teach their friends exclusively.
If you decided that your character is going to be a wise sage that teaches anybody for free, you still cannot teach everything to everybody. First you would not know everything, and second your lessons should be quite short to avoid long queues of prospective pupils.
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Agreed, that is why friendship is first on the list.
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what if training with a pc took 2 pp from both characters.
you whould have to choose
do i get a swords, and have pp for 10 levels
or do i use a pc, get two swords, and gain half as many levels?
and it whould also let people get rid of their extra pp. i have like 1000 that ill never use.
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nonsense
I guess teachers losing experience by teaching do not make much sense.
And the extra pp in the current system should go away with the system so you would not have to get rid of them in anyway.
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okay, altough this threat is about PC training i would like to add the question:
What about self teaching?
If i do something in real life i learn from doing something releatedly.
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Yes but it takes much longer (ie I believe you should only be able to grow so much before you need to train with someone [pc or npc] to grow past that level). Let\'s face it I could learn to kick your butt on my own but if I train under a martial arts master I would advance that path quicker.
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I agree with this idea of player-based training, however, i think it should only be partly PC based. For example, let\'s say that for a certain skill, there are 100 levels. the first 50 levels could be trained by an NPC, and the last 50 could be trained by a PC. or vice versa: the first 50 are player-trained, while the next 50 are NPC trained. of course, the players who train others would get a bit of cash for their teachings. same as training with an NPC: money + PP = skillz! XP
or, you could say that once a PC reaches a certain level in a certain skill, they are called a \"master\" and are able to decide if they want to train other players. (somewhat like the advisor role) In their information, there will be a thing that says \"So-and-so carries a ________ Master Crest\" or whatever, so you know what they train.
and my last idea: choice between being trained by NPC or PC. for example, NPC training costs more, but gives more exp. PC training is cheaper, but doesn\'t give as much exp. So the player has the choice to go train with another person or with an NPC.
either way, adding some kind of player-training might cut down on the PLers so many complain about. if a master suspects a person to be a PL, then they have the option of not training that person... or they could send the person out on \"quests\" and test them to see if they are worthy. XD either way, it would at least divide the PL and RP community so that they aren\'t infringing upon each others \"territories\" (sounds like a nature show...). the PLers (as inevitable as they are) would go to NPCs, and the RPers would go to other players for not just training but for some RP fun-times!
sorry if i repeated anyone, i\'m just adding my two cents.
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TM- Thanks for saying those things. I have thought it and never written them down....
Lets push for it!!!!
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Originally posted by Talamir
This will lead in situations like guild leaders giving their members training for free, while others waste tria and PP. That gives those people a totally unfair advantage. Since the trainer has to pick his own price/barter guess what. Theres no stopping him from taking 1 tria every level and then giving that back to the person. Its a no. Sorry. Later. Bye. Cya.
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Don\'t be silly. If someone wants to teach someone else for free, they should be allowed to do so. If someone wants to train people of the same guild in a particular skill, they should be allowed to do so. If being a member of a particular guild has certain perks, then it\'s only right.
What ~should~ happen is that you can\'t train beyond a certain level, say one third or one half of whatever your skill is. So if I have level 50 light armour, I can\'t teach past level 25. And while it might not cost tria, it would still cost progression points using the current system.