PlaneShift
Fan Area => The Hydlaa Plaza => Topic started by: wertigon on August 07, 2005, 03:24:47 pm
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But it looks like Windows Vista (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/default.mspx) will make your PlaneShift experience just that much worse (http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/cgi_directory/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000001). :/
No, this isn\'t a bad joke, though I wish it was. All games that currently use OpenGL (Doom3, UT2k4, America\'s Army to mention a few) will run worse, much worse in some cases, on Vista than they do on XP. Microsoft are making a big mistake here, but before the rest of the world realises it, the damage will already be done.
This is exactly the same kind of crap they pulled with Internet Explorer (those who has tried to design standard-compliant CSS-powered webpages know what I\'m talking about). Thank you Microsoft for making it nearly impossible to develop cross-platform games. Really. And to think, only yesterday I actually thought there might be a day where I\'ll respect Microsoft as a company. :(
[Edit]Sorry about that, links now work. Note to self: Only quote values when not using BBCodes.[/edit]
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None of those links works for me...
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*shrug* stay on a platform that works till they fix it
thats why they\'re called Microsuck! :D
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Originally posted by wertigon
Thank you Microsoft for making it nearly impossible to develop cross-platform games. Really. And to think, only yesterday I actually thought there might be a day where I\'ll respect Microsoft as a company.
Are you surprised? They\'ve been doing it for ages. M$\'s policy is to make their products incompatible with anything else, because it makes it hard to switch to competing products. And the harder it is, the better for M$. Why do you think they want software patents so badly?
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Well I dont care, I didnt get XP I wont go for Vista...
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Yeah I read about this....
It\'s a good thing I don\'t use windows really :)
Gentoo + Wine/Cedega = enough for me.
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Originally posted by Entamis
Are you surprised? They\'ve been doing it for ages. M$\'s policy is to make their products incompatible with anything else, because it makes it hard to switch to competing products. And the harder it is, the better for M$. Why do you think they want software patents so badly?
Not surprised, no. However, I am dissapointed. To me, Microsoft is like a well-known family member that has been doing drugs and heavy crime and all kinds of negative stuff and is now on parole, given a second chance, and showing signs of and a willingness to get out of their current state.
With IE7, Microsoft finally showed signs of actually listening to what everyone outside the redmond-based company thougt. There were signs of redemption. Heck, they even released a couple of Open Source applications. And then they pull this. It\'s like watching said family member get caught for robbing yet another bank.
You knew it\'d come to this, but deep down you\'ve started to hope that maybe this time it\'ll be different. Maybe this time, they\'ll actually listen. And then they show you that no, they won\'t. They won\'t ever change. :(
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Pffft people, wait until the thing is released before you make a judgement. Given all the applications that run on openGL, I\'m doubtful that this will actually happen.
And then they pull this. It\'s like watching said family member get caught for robbing yet another bank.
Correction, It\'s like having someone tell you that they saw plans for your family member to rob a bank in over a years time.
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If you read up on this, the only time the performance will be hit is when you force windows to maintain the composited desktop during gameplay. I dont know about everyone, but I tend to like playing games in fullscreen mode and in fullscreen the desktop will be switched off and the problem will not occur.
Also it seems that the problems mentioned in many articles now are trying to implement this sort of design with OpenGL that is available now, when in reality the software will have to be re-written anyway to provide the performance equality between ATI and nVidea.
It\'s like watching said family member get caught for robbing yet another bank.
To expand on the analogy further, it\'s like seeing plans for said family member going into a bank next year and then coming out with money. You assume he is going to rob it, but perhaps he is just going to make a withdrawal.
Despite what any nay-sayers out there think Microsoft (Not M$ -- you fools) tends to get it about right, and if someone comes out with something better they normally tend to provide updates for free.
If they are planning to come out with this then it must be assumed that perhaps they know a bit more about the workings of their operating system (that they havent released yet) than we do, and so they may have a vauge idea as to how it will work.
Give them the benefit of the doubt now and then flame them (as I am sure you will anyway) after you have seen it for yourselves.
P.S. Just to make sure this doesnt end up as a MS vs. war, I use both XP and OS X for different things so I am not \'affiliated\' with either. I just dislike the open flaming that ensues any time microsft says anything
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can you remind me? open GL ... directX ...
Is open GL patented by MS or not? so maybe is it the explanation... Never forgot B Gates was a thief who steals Macintosh technology. This peanut guy is the biggest peanut of the world in my mind. He has no honnour and his company has less honour than him.
Personaly I wont buy MS products anymore: Ive paid for MS windows xp home and my computer has been wasted by virus, troyans and things like that... Off course the main security issue was my provider\'s connection program... (thank you 9tel!) thanks to the free community, I fund antivirus, firewall, pppoe connection program, and I simply learnt that XP SP2 would peanut me once I install it because of their DRM and others peanut like that...
I know something about TCPA / Palladium and I know that Longhorn is another name for this project. Thanks god I\'m using linux since kheops 2.0 and Mandrake 6.0 (or 5.3 I dont remember) and now I know Ive done the good choice... It could be harder to do it quickly my friends so begin as soon as possible believe in me !
PS: in everything I posted in this forum, feel free to replace the word \"peanut\" with the word you want...
@Xordan: can you explain to me what are you able to do with wine and how are you able to use it by pming me or emailling me? because I never success (and never really try longly i must admit...).
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No, this is bad in general. PS is OpenGL. I don\'t know about you, but I like having my MMO Games run in windowed mode, and/or run in a different monitor. Of course, I\'m spoiled with a 21\" screen when at home, and most my friends have either that or Dual monitors, so YMMV.
However, this move will force PS to do one of two things on Vista:
a) PS cannot run in OGL2.0 only OGL1.4, or
b) PS use the nVIDIA/ATi driver, making Aeroglass break.
This isn\'t nearly as bad for full-screen apps as it is for tools using OpenGL (Maya, Blender, AutoCAD...), but it\'s still *bad*. Treating OpenGL as a second-class API is bad for everyone involved.
As for this being the beta and thus not final yet: Yes. Yes that\'s very true. However, to change it it\'d require a complete rewrite of the way Aeroglass renders, meaning that Microsoft will have to push the release date of Vista back another 6 months. For some reason, I can\'t see them do that, especially since they\'re hurting from not having anything new out there right now. So, this is probably more or less permanent.
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As for this being the beta and thus not final yet: Yes. Yes that\'s very true. However, to change it it\'d require a complete rewrite of the way Aeroglass renders, meaning that Microsoft will have to push the release date of Vista back another 6 months. For some reason, I can\'t see them do that, especially since they\'re hurting from not having anything new out there right now. So, this is probably more or less permanent.
God, thats some nice assumptions... can you give any links or proof that it will take another 6 months of development to change it? That sounds awfully speculative to me, you know.
can you remind me? open GL ... directX ...
Is open GL patented by MS or not? so maybe is it the explanation... Never forgot B Gates was a thief who steals Macintosh technology. This peanut guy is the biggest peanut of the world in my mind. He has no honnour and his company has less honour than him.
Wtf? openGL patented by microsoft? Uh, openGL is a free open source graphics library that competes against DirectX. Last time I checked, microsoft had little to do with it, and didnt patent it.
Personaly I wont buy MS products anymore: Ive paid for MS windows xp home and my computer has been wasted by virus, troyans and things like that... Off course the main security issue was my provider\'s connection program... (thank you 9tel!) thanks to the free community, I fund antivirus, firewall, pppoe connection program, and I simply learnt that XP SP2 would peanut me once I install it because of their DRM and others peanut like that...
Thats most probablly because you download suspect email links and go to dodgy websites. I for one have had XP home on my laptop for 1 and a half years and havnt gotten a virus to date. It depends on the users actions just as much as the o/s.
I know something about TCPA / Palladium and I know that Longhorn is another name for this project.
Uh hu, and Palladium, I.E their system for trying to crack down on unauthorized content, viruses and spyware, has what exactly to do with their implementation of openGL in their next windows version? Im sorry, I just dont see the link here.
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@ramlambmoo : thank you for your explanations...
1) off course i know open GL isnt patented by MS... but the one who didnt understood what i meant understand now thanks to you
2) I think open GL developpers will have to find the solution alone (without MS help) because MS knew what will happen with that kind of policy : games developpers will have to use directX off course! and not an open source project... It\'s MS kind of policy.
3) I\'m proud to be able to understand where my viruses came from thanks to your help guy!
So just a question:
you install windows
you install your isp connection driver before every else drivers, you go on MS website to download your updates but before anything happen... WTF ! your computer is going crazy : ctrl alt del and regedit are blocked...
-> solution : the windows \"without fail\" boot and then regedit, eradicate the peanut programs who are starting up on the boot of your computer and reboot... and the instalations after I installed pppoe opensource client and everything works a charm...
But I think it\'s a problem of mail guy ! because of course my mails are checked under linux debian and same things for internet exploration...
4) uh uh speaking about palladium is another way to show the MS policy that\'s all
I hope the clarification helps you to understand my previous post and I dont want to feel aggressed anymore if you understand what I mean... Before repproaching anything or trying to say to somebody he is wrong, just be sure you understood everything he meant.
Cordially,
fken
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/me rubs his hands together :)
you install windows
you install your isp connection driver before every else drivers, you go on MS website to download your updates but before anything happen... WTF ! your computer is going crazy : ctrl alt del and regedit are blocked...
Wrong, you delete the partition, reformat the partition (properly not using the quick function) Then you install windows and it works nicely
You then install a virus scanner. Then you connect it to the internet...
I am unsure what you mean by installing isp drivers but if these include any free internet acceleration drivers, there is the source of some major problems.
After having installed a decent virus scanner, and then used windows update, EVERYTHING WORKS!!!!
As far as viruses are concerned, the reason that there are lots of viruses for windows is simple. Percentages.
More people use windows than use all other OS\'s combined (this was true 6months ago apologies if it has changed since then). If you want to cause an impact, you target your virus at the largest population. There is no point in making a virus for OS X, 97% of computer users wouldn\'t notice! and with linux, people would probably assume that you have built the kernal incorrectly. So you target your virus at companies, and goverments and the public. Virtually all of which use windows!
anyway I have gotten sidetracked.
and I simply learnt that XP SP2 would peanut me once I install it because of their DRM and others peanut like that...
You mean that you are forced to pay for media content that otherwise you would pirate for free? Shock... Horror... ;)
Now to actual ideas as opposed to countering other statements:
OpenGL has been designed from scratch to provide an alternative for DirectX. The creaters of OpenGL have worked to ensure that it works well under windows as it currently does. Now why assume that the creaters of openGL will call it a day and stop trying? Someone there will almost certainly be on the beta list of Vista and so can then start trying to come up with OpenGL2 or other evoloution. Just because Windows changes doesnt mean that everything else will fall in a heap, just that it will have to adapt and improve.
Also, DOS 6 was a wonderful operating system at the time. It was stable, it was fast(at least for the time), so why have windows 3.1? Everyone had to rewrite their software to make use of the new features. But the computer world improved. Then comes windows 95. Again a vast improvement, changes had to be made, but again the software evolved and became better etc. etc.
Now we have XP which works very well (as long as you dont voluntarily install spyware/spamware on it) and we are complaining that someone might make somthing different because it may involve some more work for other people.
How about having a dualboot sytem on a comp (XP and Vista)? or a shortcut somewhere that reboots using XP? (in a similar way to OS9 or classic running on OS X). There are many soloutions to whatever problems that are faced, and whether they are solved by Microsoft, or by people developing freeware, if it is a big problem, then it will be solved.
So let Microsoft actually release their software before telling them it wont work and then looking like fools when it does work.
[/rant]
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Originally posted by garlando
/me rubs his hands together :)
you install windows
you install your isp connection driver before every else drivers, you go on MS website to download your updates but before anything happen... WTF ! your computer is going crazy : ctrl alt del and regedit are blocked...
Wrong, you delete the partition, reformat the partition (properly not using the quick function) Then you install windows and it works nicely
You then install a virus scanner. Then you connect it to the internet...
I am unsure what you mean by installing isp drivers but if these include any free internet acceleration drivers, there is the source of some major problems.
After having installed a decent virus scanner, and then used windows update, EVERYTHING WORKS!!!!
I was sure somebody would tell me that... I never install windows without formating everything of course... Is there something else I must precize to defend myself?
Originally posted by garlando
As far as viruses are concerned, the reason that there are lots of viruses for windows is simple. Percentages.
More people use windows than use all other OS\'s combined (this was true 6months ago apologies if it has changed since then). If you want to cause an impact, you target your virus at the largest population. There is no point in making a virus for OS X, 97% of computer users wouldn\'t notice! and with linux, people would probably assume that you have built the kernal incorrectly. So you target your virus at companies, and goverments and the public. Virtually all of which use windows!
1) servers are very- often using linux or berkley os.
2) OS X is very close to linux os... simply because apple use linux sources...
3) 97% ? I am not sure of your number but it\'s only because I heard something at tv yesterday which said 97% of windows users and 3% of mac users... they forgot to think about linux (China would like to turn itself to linux for example to counter american redmond company...) and others os (unix solaris os/2... if someone keep on using it :D and a lot of others I even dont know it exists...)
So maybe is the 3% of mac os user right but if you watched the same thing as me at tv... it was bad numbers.
Originally posted by garlando
anyway I have gotten sidetracked.
and I simply learnt that XP SP2 would peanut me once I install it because of their DRM and others peanut like that...
You mean that you are forced to pay for media content that otherwise you would pirate for free? Shock... Horror... ;)
Since I discover free music I simply stop buying cd\'s... Why buying when your cd\'s sellers is selling you \"Star academy\"\'s song (A kind of trash tv where you watch at students who have almost no ability to sing and who will win the right to record a cd) and when internet give you everything for free legaly... I must admit I buy every cd that the cranberries has done... even if I already knew all their songs before...
But I dont buy cd anymore...
NB : just for you because I like you: http:/irate.sourceforge.net
and if you are french speaker (because you need to understqnd french to understand) look for yolan, reflet d\'acide, naheulbeuk and the last one ... hum what\'s the last one ?!!! Ill tell you that another day... just the time required to remember.
Originally posted by garlando
Now to actual ideas as opposed to countering other statements:
OpenGL has been designed from scratch to provide an alternative for DirectX. The creaters of OpenGL have worked to ensure that it works well under windows as it currently does. Now why assume that the creaters of openGL will call it a day and stop trying? Someone there will almost certainly be on the beta list of Vista and so can then start trying to come up with OpenGL2 or other evoloution. Just because Windows changes doesnt mean that everything else will fall in a heap, just that it will have to adapt and improve.
Also, DOS 6 was a wonderful operating system at the time. It was stable, it was fast(at least for the time), so why have windows 3.1? Everyone had to rewrite their software to make use of the new features. But the computer world improved. Then comes windows 95. Again a vast improvement, changes had to be made, but again the software evolved and became better etc. etc.
Now we have XP which works very well (as long as you dont voluntarily install spyware/spamware on it) and we are complaining that someone might make somthing different because it may involve some more work for other people.
How about having a dualboot sytem on a comp (XP and Vista)? or a shortcut somewhere that reboots using XP? (in a similar way to OS9 or classic running on OS X). There are many soloutions to whatever problems that are faced, and whether they are solved by Microsoft, or by people developing freeware, if it is a big problem, then it will be solved.
So let Microsoft actually release their software before telling them it wont work and then looking like fools when it does work.
[/rant]
It\'s not the problem of MS capacities its a problem of MS policy. If they dont want openGL they will try to kill openGL.
a dual boot ? Everybody isnt rich enough to do that legaly.
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Friendly post this time :)
Thanks for the link to iRATE, I will have to look through that sometime.
How does DRM stop you listening to free music? DRM stands for Digital Rights Management and is designed to stop the sharing of music (just as iTunes does for a mac)
For the 97% figure, that was mearly me having a wild guess... and was meant to be the market share of apple in pesonal computers.
If you are having that much trouble installing XP remove the network cable till you have all of the applications (office, antivirus etc) installed, thenstart using the internet, I use XP coupled with AVG 7 and Spybot and I have no problems at all.
With OS X apple supply a version of OS9 called classic designed to be used with OS X, (I am not sure how it is different from OS 9 but apparently it is). What I was suggesting is a way of loading a cut-down version of XP onto the same PC as Vista this could be done through Microsoft, or tbh anyone upgrading to Vista should already have a copy of XP or similar.
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Originally posted by garlando
Friendly post this time :)
understand me: I\'m using computer almost every days since 8 or 9 years... listening to someone who behave like if I were a dummy... how to say that... annoy me :D
Originally posted by garlando
Thanks for the link to iRATE, I will have to look through that sometime.
How does DRM stop you listening to free music? DRM stands for Digital Rights Management and is designed to stop the sharing of music (just as iTunes does for a mac)
Not against free music but... I think DRM will be a new ennemy for artists and for the users...
I saw the drm system long time ago (maybe summer 2002 or before thanks to a special meeting and the presentation was so scaring!).
And Im scared by the fact free music can be considerated like an ennemy of the good trade... you know the good trade which give 0.50?/cd to the artist when the cd is sold 25? :D ... in fact today the best thieves arent the one people are watching... and I am scared for example when B Gates said that linux users are \"communists\" or when Intel include the drm into their processors or when an os try to \"allow\" you to download the music you paid on your mp3 player only 10 times and to record it only 2times (NB : when your recorder is out you will pay 20? for nothing ;) believe in me I already broke two cd recorders ; Ill give you a good advice: never buy Traxdata\'s cd recorders)
Originally posted by garlando
If you are having that much trouble installing XP remove the network cable till you have all of the applications (office, antivirus etc) installed, thenstart using the internet, I use XP coupled with AVG 7 and Spybot and I have no problems at all.
Thanks for your help but Ill tell you how I solve my problem: the problem was that my isp created a special program to force people to accept ads installed on their computer (dont think french are fair you would be astonished...). So installing another connection program solve the problem. The Antivirus wasnt enough (in fact I saw viruses coming into my computer and my two antivirus fighting it was sooooo exciting... ?) \"who will win ?\" \"I hope it would be my computer!\") and then thanks to the installation of the opensource programs like firewall, antivirus and pppoeconnection I never had any problem with my computer... I use AVG too but I thought AVG wasnt powerful enough and it works perfectly coupled with clamwin (an opensource antivirus of linux usable under windows)
Originally posted by garlando
With OS X apple supply a version of OS9 called classic designed to be used with OS X, (I am not sure how it is different from OS 9 but apparently it is). What I was suggesting is a way of loading a cut-down version of XP onto the same PC as Vista this could be done through Microsoft, or tbh anyone upgrading to Vista should already have a copy of XP or similar.
The computers will keep on beeing sold with Windows but it will be with vista. The main problem is that oem or not people will keep on buying Windows releases. Buying Windows XP will cost the full price (maybe 150? ?) and finally you will have to pay 250? just to use your computer? No nobody will follow this way... if you think about using cracked release of windows you will have some problems to upgrade your computer (you know what I mean... something like MS\'s \"security upgrade\"
NB: I\'m using dual boot on my computer: linux debian / XP... for now the results of the fight is :
XP : 6
Linux : 1
What am I speaking about? reinstallation :D and for linux it was a hardware problem who made me make dumb things: memory burnt and I reinstalled thinking it was a software issue. For windows it was viruses problems before I discovered the firewall... Whats amazing is that I never needed firewall before... who must be blamed? my isp or my os in your mind? both of them created holes in my security...
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Originally posted by ramlambmoo
As for this being the beta and thus not final yet: Yes. Yes that\'s very true. However, to change it it\'d require a complete rewrite of the way Aeroglass renders, meaning that Microsoft will have to push the release date of Vista back another 6 months. For some reason, I can\'t see them do that, especially since they\'re hurting from not having anything new out there right now. So, this is probably more or less permanent.
God, thats some nice assumptions... can you give any links or proof that it will take another 6 months of development to change it? That sounds awfully speculative to me, you know.
[LONG post]
Actually, yes. Yes I can. If you\'ve done any kind of work in D3D, you\'ll KNOW that D3D requires 100% access to the GPU/Graphics Card, all the time. If you don\'t believe me, try and run two separate D3D games/apps in windowed mode right next to each others and you\'ll see how they come to lag your computer to death.
Now, add in OpenGL and it\'ll not be pretty, especially on older systems. It might get better once GFX cards have Dual-Core CPUs, but I don\'t see that happen anytime soon.
To solve that problem of not being able to have two D3D apps next to each others, Vista makes it so that EVERY app use D3D. You can turn that feature off, but in this case it\'s actually a good thing, since it means a much less CPU-intense desktop (much more load on GPU since it\'s hardware-accelerated). So, in essence Aeroglass itself is a D3D app. EVERYTHING you see in Vista is hardware accellerated through D3D.
In comes OpenGL apps. D3D doesn\'t play well with OpenGL. In fact, it lags pretty bad. So this means you have to pipe OpenGL through D3D in order to make things render as they\'re supposed to. However, this automaticly also makes OpenGL a second-class API, since it\'s basicly emulated through D3D. Worse, since D3D is a closed API Microsoft itself decides what features OpenGL-apps can and cannot use, instead of the card manufacturer writing the drivers. And right now, they say that only OpenGL 1.4 apps will be supported. But I digress.
Now, there isn\'t anything inherently evil here except Microsofts policies. Everything is designed just like OSX does it with one major exception: It uses D3D instead of OpenGL as it\'s primary rendering mechanism. No surprise here, D3D is Microsoft\'s baby and I\'d be surprised if they *didn\'t* use it. But as a consequence, you can\'t have the AeroGlass features and OpenGL-drivers running at the same time, and the only way to ensure OpenGL *and* Aeroglass eyecandy works at the *same* time is to rewrite the engine to OpenGL, which unfortunately would make D3D the second-class API instead.
Let me remind you that this is Microsoft. They\'ll stick to D3D no matter what, but for the sake of argument, let\'s say that they actually re-implements Aeroglass in OpenGL. Then they\'d need about 6 months extra to betatest this new branch of Windows Vista, at the very least. So as it looks right now it won\'t ever happen.
And that is why it\'ll be a cold day in hell before Vista supports OGL natively.
Originally posted by garlando
OpenGL has been designed from scratch to provide an alternative for DirectX. The creaters of OpenGL have worked to ensure that it works well under windows as it currently does. Now why assume that the creaters of openGL will call it a day and stop trying? Someone there will almost certainly be on the beta list of Vista and so can then start trying to come up with OpenGL2 or other evoloution. Just because Windows changes doesnt mean that everything else will fall in a heap, just that it will have to adapt and improve.
Wrong. OpenGL existed since even before Windows95 and DirectX, and it was only because of GLQuake that it started to get interesting for gaming. What do you think all those fancy IRIX-powered SGI workstations used as 3D-renderers for the special effects in, say, Jurrassic Park? =P
See above as for why it\'s impossible to get Vista running Aeroglass and OpenGL Native at the same time.
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1) off course i know open GL isnt patented by MS... but the one who didnt understood what i meant understand now thanks to you
Ah, that makes sense, I was pretty sure you would know it (one would hope, if someone is in this discussion, they would know it), its just from what you wrote I was like...wtf?
2) I think open GL developpers will have to find the solution alone (without MS help) because MS knew what will happen with that kind of policy : games developpers will have to use directX off course! and not an open source project... It\'s MS kind of policy.
Most definatly. I dont think microsoft would ever be activly involved in sorting out problems with other peoples libraries when they can say \"Well we have a perfectly good alternative right here for you to use\".
So just a question:
you install windows
you install your isp connection driver before every else drivers, you go on MS website to download your updates but before anything happen... WTF ! your computer is going crazy : ctrl alt del and regedit are blocked...
-> solution : the windows \"without fail\" boot and then regedit, eradicate the peanut programs who are starting up on the boot of your computer and reboot... and the instalations after I installed pppoe opensource client and everything works a charm...
Dodgy programs from your ISP? Jesus, thats bad luck, the bastards.
4) uh uh speaking about palladium is another way to show the MS policy that\'s all
Yeah, but palladium is another huge and compilcated topic, that is probablly even bigger than the openGL problem. If we want to discuss it we should open a new thread. For example I could say it shows microsofts policy of creating better computing without viruses and spam and you could say it shows their policy of trying to control everything, and we could argue forever about it, so im not going to go there :P.
Im glad thats all cleared up. You should send your isp a mail bomb.
Let me remind you that this is Microsoft. They\'ll stick to D3D no matter what, but for the sake of argument, let\'s say that they actually re-implements Aeroglass in OpenGL. Then they\'d need about 6 months extra to betatest this new branch of Windows Vista, at the very least. So as it looks right now it won\'t ever happen.
You just explained a whole lot of stuff I already knew and then repeated the \"6 months\" figure. Where did the 6 months come from? Your own estimates? Plus, what I was questioning was the notion of it adding 6 months to make them work side by side, note that changing the entire setup to openGL is one way of working this, and probablly the least likely way for microsoft to do it, since they\'d never support openGL over DirectX. I do not think that finding a solution to this problem would take 6 months.
and the only way to ensure OpenGL *and* Aeroglass eyecandy works at the *same* time is to rewrite the engine to OpenGL, which unfortunately would make D3D the second-class API instead.
What? Make the D3D a second class library? Rewriting the openGL library wouldnt affect the standard of DirectX at all, and microsoft would still use DirectX as its primary engine for areoglass.
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Originally posted by ramlambmoo
Dodgy programs from your ISP? Jesus, thats bad luck, the bastards.
Hey! there is no word censuring here! peanut!
Originally posted by ramlambmoo
Im glad thats all cleared up. You should send your isp a mail bomb.
Impossible dude! There is no way to contact them with internet since I accepted to pay... the only way is to call them with my phone paying a nice price (something like 0.35?/minute) and after waiting 10 minutes Ill be able to speak to a technical helper...
Originally posted by ramlambmoo
and the only way to ensure OpenGL *and* Aeroglass eyecandy works at the *same* time is to rewrite the engine to OpenGL, which unfortunately would make D3D the second-class API instead.
What? Make the D3D a second class library? Rewriting the openGL library wouldnt affect the standard of DirectX at all, and microsoft would still use DirectX as its primary engine for areoglass.
Dont go too far of the subject (I am the one who is saying that... :D ) dont forget that everythings worked before vista... So it was possible to play with openGL before if it\'s no longer really possible it\'s a voluntary act to get another trust... maybe the american antitrust laws arent useful enough...
Originally written on Opengl.org (http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/cgi_directory/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000001)
Layering OpenGL over Direct3D is a policy more than a technical decision.
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Dont go too far of the subject (I am the one who is saying that... ) dont forget that everythings worked before vista... So it was possible to play with openGL before if it\'s no longer really possible it\'s a voluntary act to get another trust... maybe the american antitrust laws arent useful enough...
No, because windows Vista is going to use 3D themes, which brings a whole new dimension of a problem into it. The reason everything has worked before vista is because you didnt have to have a D3D app running the whole time. Now, with the areoglass theme, you effectivly are.
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Originally posted by ramlambmoo
Let me remind you that this is Microsoft. They\'ll stick to D3D no matter what, but for the sake of argument, let\'s say that they actually re-implements Aeroglass in OpenGL. Then they\'d need about 6 months extra to betatest this new branch of Windows Vista, at the very least. So as it looks right now it won\'t ever happen.
You just explained a whole lot of stuff I already knew and then repeated the \"6 months\" figure. Where did the 6 months come from? Your own estimates? Plus, what I was questioning was the notion of it adding 6 months to make them work side by side, note that changing the entire setup to openGL is one way of working this, and probablly the least likely way for microsoft to do it, since they\'d never support openGL over DirectX. I do not think that finding a solution to this problem would take 6 months.
Way to go. You completely missed the point I was making. :rolleyes:
The solution is rather simple. Rewrite Aeroglass to use OpenGL instead of D3D. That\'s not gonna take too long with Microsoft\'s resources. However, let me remind you that the betatesting phase at Microsoft is an immensely huge and complicated affair in order to ween out all the bugs. It\'s not the development that takes time, it\'s the beta testing.
[edit]Oh, and yea, the 6-month figure is just my guess at this, but I\'d personally be very surprised if it didn\'t take even longer. 6 months assuming they don\'t come across a show-stopper bug, probably longer.[/edit]
and the only way to ensure OpenGL *and* Aeroglass eyecandy works at the *same* time is to rewrite the engine to OpenGL, which unfortunately would make D3D the second-class API instead.
What? Make the D3D a second class library? Rewriting the openGL library wouldnt affect the standard of DirectX at all, and microsoft would still use DirectX as its primary engine for areoglass.
The way Aeroglass is written, either you have to pipe D3D through OpenGL or pipe OpenGL through D3D, or else things will break. Whichever API you pipe is going to end up as the \"second-class\" API (since it\'ll be emulated), even if all features are supported.
Of course, we wouldn\'t have this problem at all if Microsoft would just do as the (http://www.linux.org/) rest (http://www.bsd.org/) of (http://www.apple.com/) the (http://www.sgi.com/) world (http://www.sun.com/), but that\'s another discussion alltogether.
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Way to go. You completely missed the point I was making.
The solution is rather simple. Rewrite Aeroglass to use OpenGL instead of D3D. That\'s not gonna take too long with Microsoft\'s resources. However, let me remind you that the betatesting phase at Microsoft is an immensely huge and complicated affair in order to ween out all the bugs. It\'s not the development that takes time, it\'s the beta testing.
Beta testing a GUI doesnt take anywhere near as long as beta testing the rest of an entire operating system would. Theres alot less scope for bugs, especially when they\'ve already probablly figured out pretty much how a 3D GUI is going to work (considering they already have areoglass). The only bugs would be in the actual implementation.
Oh, and yea, the 6-month figure is just my guess at this, but I\'d personally be very surprised if it didn\'t take even longer. 6 months assuming they don\'t come across a show-stopper bug, probably longer.
Well, you can be suprised then. Rewriting a few API calls from DirectX to openGL does not take 6 months, and thats from personal experience. Given the fact that Microsoft have teams of programmers far more skilled then me, I dont think they\'d have many \"show-stopping\" problems.
The way Aeroglass is written, either you have to pipe D3D through OpenGL or pipe OpenGL through D3D, or else things will break. Whichever API you pipe is going to end up as the \"second-class\" API (since it\'ll be emulated), even if all features are supported.
Oh, sorry, I thought you said the only way to solve it would be to rewrite the openGL engine (when in fact you said rewrite the engine to openGL).
Of course, we wouldn\'t have this problem at all if Microsoft would just do as the rest of the world, but that\'s another discussion alltogether.
God, thats a mature approach- We have different technologies, so they should scrap theirs and use ours. You\'re just as bad as microsoft themselves. And, considering they own, what? 95%? of the o/s market, I think in fact they are the rest of the word and openGL are the ones that arent conforming. Just a thought.
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Originally posted by ramlambmoo
Beta testing a GUI doesnt take anywhere near as long as beta testing the rest of an entire operating system would. Theres alot less scope for bugs, especially when they\'ve already probablly figured out pretty much how a 3D GUI is going to work (considering they already have areoglass). The only bugs would be in the actual implementation.
Oh, and yea, the 6-month figure is just my guess at this, but I\'d personally be very surprised if it didn\'t take even longer. 6 months assuming they don\'t come across a show-stopper bug, probably longer.
Well, you can be suprised then. Rewriting a few API calls from DirectX to openGL does not take 6 months, and thats from personal experience. Given the fact that Microsoft have teams of programmers far more skilled then me, I dont think they\'d have many \"show-stopping\" problems.
The problem isn\'t to get AeroGlass to run under OpenGL however. If you port AeroGlass to OpenGL it means you have to emulate D3D through OpenGL, and THAT will be the biggest hurdle to overcome.
Ask the guys working on Wine (http://www.winehq.org/) why they, despite having had YEARS to work on it, still haven\'t come anywhere near a perfect D3D emulation. Or DirectX for that matter. It\'s because emulation is everything but easy. Even *if* Microsoft were to use the Wine codebase (which they won\'t since it\'d basicly mean they\'d have to give Linux and Wine all their enhancements) they\'d still have lots of work to do, and that\'s where most of the bugtesting will end up.
Of course, we wouldn\'t have this problem at all if Microsoft would just do as the rest of the world, but that\'s another discussion alltogether.
God, thats a mature approach- We have different technologies, so they should scrap theirs and use ours. You\'re just as bad as microsoft themselves. And, considering they own, what? 95%? of the o/s market, I think in fact they are the rest of the word and openGL are the ones that arent conforming. Just a thought.
Well, ever heard of Apple? When they first released their GUI for MacOSX, they pulled this exact same stunt, minus the piping OGL through whatever their proprietary 3D-library is called. It didn\'t take long before people complained about their OGL apps lagging to death, and Apple had to switch to OGL or face everyone switching to Linux/Windows. Fortunately, they didn\'t have the problem of having tonnes of legacy apps using a legacy proprietary API.
What Microsoft does is only slightly better. I can\'t say I don\'t understand their reasoning, I just don\'t agree with it. It\'s by far too shortsighted IMO, and they\'re relying far too much on Microsoft keeping their monopoly - 95% today, but how much market share will they have in a month? A year? Two years? A decade? That, however, is a different topic alltogether, so I\'m just gonna STFU now.
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A bit off topic, but here is another thing to get your blood boiling: http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000143050582/
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Can someone explain to me why I should bother to get any new OS at all...?
I mean windows 2k works with most game, and for the rest I am useing Gentoo ...
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simply because next OEM windows releases will be vista and not 2k or xp...
So dont forget developpers wont develop only for xp and that they will have some compatibility issues... the problem here isnt your computer or your os the problem is that developpers will have to solve another problem...
I saw some screenshots of vista... wahou! it\'s exactly the screenshots of linux with the windows logo and the START button*...
Really they are... motherpeanut !
*look for kde add-ons and linux desktop in general
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Why would you want to play openGL games on windows ? those works fine on linux, only directx games can be a problem !
btw, is there real evidence that windows vista will suck that much ? any M$ declaration, beta test or something ? or just rumors ?
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if you read the link it seems to be the reality...
hum you are right leji! come everyone and enjoy with linux!
(we will create the linux first international! But I think it could be better to listen to the red army during our next meetings...)
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If worst comes to worst, someone will write a D3D renderer for CS, and our side of the problem will be solved.
I do agree, though, that emulating openGL is teh suck, and it would be alot better if the two APIs could cooperate, or divide low level resources nicely. This is obviously Microsoft\'s attempt to drive OpenGL into irrelevance, in order to keep the important games market tied down to Windows by essentially forcing people to use Direct3D.
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The big problem I have with OpenGL on this Vista thing is that if Microsoft was to make DirectX way easier to work with that OpenGL for developers then the number of games ported to Macs would get lower than they already are. Annoying to say the least.
I\'ll wait and see how things fan out but from Microsoft\'s past record of keeping things to themselves and excluding anyone else, I\'m not holding my breath :|
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If that\'s really true, they could probably be sued for abusing their trust... hopefully they\'d lost, the good point is that it would probably unite all M$-alternatives communities
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Originally posted by leji
If that\'s really true, they could probably be sued for abusing their trust... hopefully they\'d lost, the good point is that it would probably unite all M$-alternatives communities
Don\'t count on it, though... The only lawsuit they ever lost against antitrust issues was the one with EU about Windows Media Player... And even on that one, they still got away with barely a scratch. :(
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Originally posted by dfryer
If worst comes to worst, someone will write a D3D renderer for CS, and our side of the problem will be solved.
are you kidding ????????
I am not Jesus : if someone hit me I wont let him hitting me again...
nobody has to accept MS acts and if ps works only under Windows I hope there will be a correct ps-like under linux and mac os...
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The problem isn\'t to get AeroGlass to run under OpenGL however. If you port AeroGlass to OpenGL it means you have to emulate D3D through OpenGL, and THAT will be the biggest hurdle to overcome.
Ask the guys working on Wine why they, despite having had YEARS to work on it, still haven\'t come anywhere near a perfect D3D emulation. Or DirectX for that matter. It\'s because emulation is everything but easy. Even *if* Microsoft were to use the Wine codebase (which they won\'t since it\'d basicly mean they\'d have to give Linux and Wine all their enhancements) they\'d still have lots of work to do, and that\'s where most of the bugtesting will end up.
Yes, well thats not an issue really because we all know microsoft would never run areo glass on openGL instead of directX. I was just questioning the \"6 months\" figure as being inaccurate for converting areo.
As for the guys working with Wine, maybe the fact they havent got a perfect emulation working is because, well, they arent the ones who wrote the DirectX graphics library. When you think about it, If there is a group that could write a decent emulator for DirectX, if would be the people who created it. But thats a null point, since microsoft having to emulate directX isnt going to happen.
Well, ever heard of Apple? When they first released their GUI for MacOSX, they pulled this exact same stunt, minus the piping OGL through whatever their proprietary 3D-library is called. It didn\'t take long before people complained about their OGL apps lagging to death, and Apple had to switch to OGL or face everyone switching to Linux/Windows. Fortunately, they didn\'t have the problem of having tonnes of legacy apps using a legacy proprietary API.
Yes, this is exactly my point- Apple were not in a position to dictate terms here. How many people use whatever the hell Macs graphics library is / was? I dont even know if it still exists, or what its called. On the other hand hundreds, if not thousands of apps rely on DirectX, and with their market share, they are in a good position. While Apple couldn\'t reasonablly justify developers having to switch their programs to their graphics libraries to cater for that extra 5% of the market, Microsoft have a graphics library which will run better for 95% of users.
What Microsoft does is only slightly better. I can\'t say I don\'t understand their reasoning, I just don\'t agree with it. It\'s by far too shortsighted IMO, and they\'re relying far too much on Microsoft keeping their monopoly - 95% today, but how much market share will they have in a month? A year? Two years? A decade? That, however, is a different topic alltogether, so I\'m just gonna STFU now.
How much market share will they have in a month? 95%. In two years? At a very minimum, i\'d say 80%. In a decade? Well, in a decade we\'ll be up to Windows Blackcomb and beyond, im not going to speculate about that. Keep in mind that microsoft have been around for 30? years. If theres any company that has a long term view, its them. I mean, they can always fix the OpenGL compatibility issue later, cant they? No real hurry, for them, and in the meantime they get an oppurtunity to kill it off by making it run poorly. IMO they\'re just hedging their bets- Refusing to play ball in the meantime, doing some damage to it, and then they\'ll just make everything right again if openGL wins out. Contrary to how it first looks, it would seem a pretty smart move.
The biggest issue i\'d be worrying about here, is not that my precious openGL apps wont run on windows, because you can always fix that but just running full screen, or turning off the stupid useless eye candy GUI, which I personally wont run anyway. The real issue here is that by Forcing people into DirectX, it reduces the portability of programs to other operating systems, thus reducing their attractivness.
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Haha i saw a picture of planeshift in vista.. there are no buttons.. and everything is mushed up
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Originally posted by ramlambmoo
The problem isn\'t to get AeroGlass to run under OpenGL however. If you port AeroGlass to OpenGL it means you have to emulate D3D through OpenGL, and THAT will be the biggest hurdle to overcome.
Ask the guys working on Wine why they, despite having had YEARS to work on it, still haven\'t come anywhere near a perfect D3D emulation. Or DirectX for that matter. It\'s because emulation is everything but easy. Even *if* Microsoft were to use the Wine codebase (which they won\'t since it\'d basicly mean they\'d have to give Linux and Wine all their enhancements) they\'d still have lots of work to do, and that\'s where most of the bugtesting will end up.
Yes, well thats not an issue really because we all know microsoft would never run areo glass on openGL instead of directX. I was just questioning the \"6 months\" figure as being inaccurate for converting areo.
As for the guys working with Wine, maybe the fact they havent got a perfect emulation working is because, well, they arent the ones who wrote the DirectX graphics library. When you think about it, If there is a group that could write a decent emulator for DirectX, if would be the people who created it. But thats a null point, since microsoft having to emulate directX isnt going to happen.
It\'s a moot point, and I said so since the beginning. :P
However, for the record the Wine guys have the documented APIs for DX, they know how they *should* render, and they\'re a bunch of brilliant software developers, especially with Novell/TransGaming/Whatever pumps in resources into developing Wine even further. And today the situation is merely okay, and much remains to be done. That says something.
Well, ever heard of Apple? When they first released their GUI for MacOSX, they pulled this exact same stunt, minus the piping OGL through whatever their proprietary 3D-library is called. It didn\'t take long before people complained about their OGL apps lagging to death, and Apple had to switch to OGL or face everyone switching to Linux/Windows. Fortunately, they didn\'t have the problem of having tonnes of legacy apps using a legacy proprietary API.
Yes, this is exactly my point- Apple were not in a position to dictate terms here. How many people use whatever the hell Macs graphics library is / was? I dont even know if it still exists, or what its called. On the other hand hundreds, if not thousands of apps rely on DirectX, and with their market share, they are in a good position. While Apple couldn\'t reasonablly justify developers having to switch their programs to their graphics libraries to cater for that extra 5% of the market, Microsoft have a graphics library which will run better for 95% of users.
Yes, Microsoft is the only company in a position to push their own, proprietary *lock-in* technologies to this extent. That doesn\'t make it right. We have an Open Standard. It\'s called OpenGL. No matter how great DirectX is, as long as it isn\'t open, it won\'t be used by anything non-MS. And it\'s not too hard to imagine that in five years, Microsoft will have around 60% of all desktop computers in the world, if not less. China, Taiwan, Brazil, South Korea, Japan, South Africa... All countries that in the very near future won\'t be running Windows as their primary OS. See the links below for more info. (And yes, I\'m aware it\'s \"only\" the governments that switch at the moment, but the people will follow their lead, and probably sooner rather than later.)
http://english.people.com.cn/200404/05/eng20040405_139504.shtml
http://www.techworld.com/opsys/features/index.cfm?featureid=1661
http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS9000119646.html
http://www.itworldcanada.com/a/CIO-Gov.-Review/3f0b617f-682d-49c1-a7fe-3d91c00112d1.html
So then I ask ye - Why destroy OpenGL and make your OS suck even more? No, better to start playing nice, while there\'s still time, and start building trust instead of trying to bully your own APIs through.
What Microsoft does is only slightly better. I can\'t say I don\'t understand their reasoning, I just don\'t agree with it. It\'s by far too shortsighted IMO, and they\'re relying far too much on Microsoft keeping their monopoly - 95% today, but how much market share will they have in a month? A year? Two years? A decade? That, however, is a different topic alltogether, so I\'m just gonna STFU now.
How much market share will they have in a month? 95%. In two years? At a very minimum, i\'d say 80%. In a decade? Well, in a decade we\'ll be up to Windows Blackcomb and beyond, im not going to speculate about that. Keep in mind that microsoft have been around for 30? years. If theres any company that has a long term view, its them. I mean, they can always fix the OpenGL compatibility issue later, cant they? No real hurry, for them, and in the meantime they get an oppurtunity to kill it off by making it run poorly. IMO they\'re just hedging their bets- Refusing to play ball in the meantime, doing some damage to it, and then they\'ll just make everything right again if openGL wins out. Contrary to how it first looks, it would seem a pretty smart move.
The biggest issue i\'d be worrying about here, is not that my precious openGL apps wont run on windows, because you can always fix that but just running full screen, or turning off the stupid useless eye candy GUI, which I personally wont run anyway. The real issue here is that by Forcing people into DirectX, it reduces the portability of programs to other operating systems, thus reducing their attractivness.
Exactly. I can live without the eye-candy, but I\'m in a minority. And what if there\'s some killer functionality that requires composite desktop to work? All this will do is set back the industry by a couple of years. They can\'t stop the use of OpenGL, but they sure as hell can try.
Of course, much can happen yet. Vista is just in public beta so far. It\'s highly possible the API will change, and that\'s why they won\'t give card vendors the specs to write drivers that play nice with OpenGL and Aeroglass at the same time. I\'m hoping that is just what it is. But if Vista ships the way it is right now... Then they deserve every harsh word they\'ll get.
Let\'s wait and see, shall we?
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Well... What does anyone expect from a bunch of paranoid schizophrenics who think that Google is out to get them? Okay, so that has nothing to with this, but whatever. The fact still stands that M$ is greedy and paranoid(not a good combination)
/me goes to look for Pear PC \"Maybe it\'s working better now.\"
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It\'s a moot point, and I said so since the beginning.
What are you saying is a moot point? The 6 months or microsoft switching to openGL? Make yourself a bit clearer.
However, for the record the Wine guys have the documented APIs for DX, they know how they *should* render, and they\'re a bunch of brilliant software developers, especially with Novell/TransGaming/Whatever pumps in resources into developing Wine even further. And today the situation is merely okay, and much remains to be done. That says something.
Says what? That for all their brilliance and innovation they still couldnt get it working perfectly? What is the point you\'re trying to make here? All im claiming is that if someone had to make a DirectX emulation, then the people who wrote the DirectX library would probablly be in the box seat, agreed?
Yes, Microsoft is the only company in a position to push their own, proprietary *lock-in* technologies to this extent. That doesn\'t make it right. We have an Open Standard. It\'s called OpenGL.
No, openGL is not the standard. Do you have any proof of it being the industry standard, apart from the fact you would like it to be? Lets see how many seconds the industry \"standard\" lasts when microsoft doesnt support it with vista? Microsoft has an equivalent, similar API to OpenGL. Saying OpenGL is the standard because it works on a wider variety of o/s is a void point when the one it doesnt work on (soon to be) has 95% of the market share. Now that I read your statement again, you said \"Open\" standard. What is that meant to mean? Open source standard? Well since Windows is a *closed* source program, they dont really need to adhere to open Standards? Clarify what you mean by that.
No matter how great DirectX is, as long as it isn\'t open, it won\'t be used by anything non-MS.
So? \"anything non-MS\" comprises of approximatly 5% of the market. I dont exactly think microsoft are really that concerned about that, you know. In fact, microsoft wouldnt even want Linux etc to be using DirectX, because then it increases the portability of the tons of windows app using directX. DirectX is a technology designed for windows.
And it\'s not too hard to imagine that in five years, Microsoft will have around 60% of all desktop computers in the world, if not less. China, Taiwan, Brazil, South Korea, Japan, South Africa... All countries that in the very near future won\'t be running Windows as their primary OS. See the links below for more info. (And yes, I\'m aware it\'s \"only\" the governments that switch at the moment, but the people will follow their lead, and probably sooner rather than later.)
rofl... South Korea? Hahaha. Japan? Get real. Lets have a look at the links you gave me:
On April 3, the first China-Japan-S.Korea IT ministers\' conference for OSS (Open Source Software) was held in Beijing. It was jointly sponsored by China Ministry of Information, Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry and Ministry of Public Management, Home Affairs, Posts and Telecommunications of Japan, and Ministry of Information and Communication of ROK. The three countries signed \"the Memo for Cooperation on Opening Source Code\".
Big jump from Governments holding a meeting about open source, to \"Majority of country using linux and OpenGL in 5 years\".
The second article was just a puff piece showing some governments that had open source or linux inititives in place: Things like \"and they are showing keen interest in helping accelerate the maturation of Linux on the desktop\". Thats not a definitive statement: thats an opinion about their intentions which may lead to growth of linux in the future. Also \"The use of embedded Linux in Japan\'s consumer electronics industry is growing rapidly, as is the adoption of carrier-grade Linux in telephony\". Notice they dont give any figures, just \"is growing rapidly\". And not the consumer desktop linux division, but using linux in telephone communications. Slight difference there.
The third article comes from \"Desktop Linux\", and is so obvious a neutral third party here, and couldnt possibly be basied towards one side. Still, at least it gaves some figures.
\"National Public Radio (NPR) is airing a story about the Brazillian government\'s initiative to migrate 40 percent of its computers to Free Software such as Linux by 2006. The four-minute spot includes great quotes from Brazillian government officials, including one likening Microsoft\'s marketing tactics to those of a drug dealer\".
Someone airing a story about a supposed aim to convert 40% to linux by the end of 2006. Well, thats a government aim. Certaintly the brazilian government has a proven track record of trying to implement cutting edge technologies for the common good. Have a look at their failed Ethanol fuel substitution experiment, and you\'ll see what I mean. Of course, I\'m doubtful that switching to linux can cause widespread deforestation, envrionmental damage, huge social problems and billions of lost dollars, but well you never know... :P
In fact, if we\'re going to quote Biased articles, well I could go to microsoft.com and quote their articles as showing why Windows is better than linux in those countries you mentioned.
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserversystem/facts/worldwide/default.mspx
However, of course the Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Brazilian etc pages are in the local pages, so I cant quote some juicy propaganda for you.
As for your last article:
\"Countries in Africa are gradually adopting strategies that promote the use of Linux as an alternative to Windows, and South Africa is leading the charge, with the government\'s recent approval of an open source software adoption plan.\"
Gradually adopting strategies that promote the use of Linux as an alternative to Windows. All very key words to note there.
In conclusion, I think you\'re making a bit of a jump from those articles to 40% of the world using linux in 5 years time. Time will tell, eh?
(And yes, I\'m aware it\'s \"only\" the governments that switch at the moment, but the people will follow their lead, and probably sooner rather than later.)
Yes, because we all follow what our governments do. Well, at least those simple minded fools in China, Korea, Japan, Brazil and India will. [/sarcasm]
So then I ask ye - Why destroy OpenGL and make your OS suck even more? No, better to start playing nice, while there\'s still time, and start building trust instead of trying to bully your own APIs through.
Well, if you dont understand why they\'re doing it now, as I\'ve explained to you earlier, then you never will. Since they have created the most successful computing business ever, and created some of the richest people in the world along with it, one would think they have some idea of how to run a business.
Exactly. I can live without the eye-candy, but I\'m in a minority. And what if there\'s some killer functionality that requires composite desktop to work? All this will do is set back the industry by a couple of years. They can\'t stop the use of OpenGL, but they sure as hell can try.
What if? What if? The point is there isnt some killer OpenGL app, and, with microsoft making these moves, it will ensure that any killer apps in the future will at least have DirectX support, if they want it to be a commerical success. And if its an open source killer app, then someone could just take the source code and port it to DirectX to get it to work on windows.
Of course, much can happen yet. Vista is just in public beta so far. It\'s highly possible the API will change, and that\'s why they won\'t give card vendors the specs to write drivers that play nice with OpenGL and Aeroglass at the same time. I\'m hoping that is just what it is. But if Vista ships the way it is right now... Then they deserve every harsh word they\'ll get.
Let\'s wait and see, shall we?
Yes, and they deserve every harsh word they got for Netscape, and every other technology they killed... but somehow I dont think they\'re too worried about harsh words. I still dont think It will be this way when Vista Ships, but either way it wont affect me, since im not buying vista, and even if I did, I\'ll just turn the eye candy off anyway.
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Doesn\'t bother me. I\'ve seen IE7 ... what a joke. this OpenGL thing must be the punch line.
I dont use windows.
As for DX to be the industry standard, i really dont care. The day i have to use windows to play some uberl33t game i\'ll buy a PS3 and forget PC gamming apart from solitaire :P
And im a strong believer that if it bothers you/does something you dont like/want dont use/buy it.
That simple, no use in getting all bitchy, and going all \"MicroSux TM\" on some God forgotten forum. They\'r morons, people get that. Get over it!
Power to the penguins!
LOL peanuty rotfl!
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*passes by and can\'t continue without making a coment
Morons... peanuts... Microsuck... true true...
Power to the penguins!
No!!!
Power to the Magic Mugs OS!!! 100% not buggy, you can do whatever you want in it, run anything on it, etc...!!!
Magic Mugs OS: it\'s magic! (it really is)
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Originally posted by ramlambmoo
It\'s a moot point, and I said so since the beginning.
What are you saying is a moot point? The 6 months or microsoft switching to openGL? Make yourself a bit clearer.
However, for the record the Wine guys have the documented APIs for DX, they know how they *should* render, and they\'re a bunch of brilliant software developers, especially with Novell/TransGaming/Whatever pumps in resources into developing Wine even further. And today the situation is merely okay, and much remains to be done. That says something.
Says what? That for all their brilliance and innovation they still couldnt get it working perfectly? What is the point you\'re trying to make here? All im claiming is that if someone had to make a DirectX emulation, then the people who wrote the DirectX library would probablly be in the box seat, agreed?
1. Microsoft switching to OpenGL, duh.
2. Says something of how hard it is to make perfect emulation. I\'m disputing it\'ll take a mere six months to emulate D3D through OpenGL. However, I do agree that the D3D-guys will have an advantage.
Originally posted by ramlambmoo
Yes, Microsoft is the only company in a position to push their own, proprietary *lock-in* technologies to this extent. That doesn\'t make it right. We have an Open Standard. It\'s called OpenGL.
No, openGL is not the standard. Do you have any proof of it being the industry standard, apart from the fact you would like it to be? Lets see how many seconds the industry \"standard\" lasts when microsoft doesnt support it with vista? Microsoft has an equivalent, similar API to OpenGL. Saying OpenGL is the standard because it works on a wider variety of o/s is a void point when the one it doesnt work on (soon to be) has 95% of the market share. Now that I read your statement again, you said \"Open\" standard. What is that meant to mean? Open source standard? Well since Windows is a *closed* source program, they dont really need to adhere to open Standards? Clarify what you mean by that.
Uhm... Dude. Everything 3D-accellerated except games more or less use OpenGL, or have a plugin/option for it. Maya, 3DSM, Medical softwares etc... Practicly the ENTIRE WORLD use OpenGL nowadays. Anything that runs on Linux and MacOSX and anything NON-Microsoft use it. So it\'s MS vs the rest of the world.
As for open standards:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_standard
In other words, Open Standards are there to increase interoperability. If you don\'t use Open Standards it\'s akin to saying \"No, I won\'t play soccer with you, we\'re not using my ball!\" Seen?
Originally posted by ramlambmoo
No matter how great DirectX is, as long as it isn\'t open, it won\'t be used by anything non-MS.
So? \"anything non-MS\" comprises of approximatly 5% of the market. I dont exactly think microsoft are really that concerned about that, you know. In fact, microsoft wouldnt even want Linux etc to be using DirectX, because then it increases the portability of the tons of windows app using directX. DirectX is a technology designed for windows.
Well, DUH. But if cross-platform is something you want... Then DirectX and/or Direct3D is not an option. Simple as that. You know it, Microsoft knows it. Crippling OpenGL won\'t change that fact. The only thing that can change that fact is to make DX an Open Standard. And then Microsoft have lost the advantages they had in the first place.
Originally posted by ramlambmoo
[snip]
In conclusion, I think you\'re making a bit of a jump from those articles to 40% of the world using linux in 5 years time. Time will tell, eh?
(And yes, I\'m aware it\'s \"only\" the governments that switch at the moment, but the people will follow their lead, and probably sooner rather than later.)
Yes, because we all follow what our governments do. Well, at least those simple minded fools in China, Korea, Japan, Brazil and India will. [/sarcasm]
If Microsoft continues to use their policy of ignoring and/or poorly support everything not coming from Redmond, then yes. Simply because it\'ll mean that interoperability issues will be so huge it\'ll be ridiculous.
The argument goes something like this:
My work runs this new shiny OS. Then I\'ll also run it. Why? Because it\'s a helluva lot easier to get (free) support on this OS than on that other OS. You run what your more computer-savy friends run. And in countries like mine where the gov is boss for like, 25-30% of the market (in other words, the biggest employer by far) it\'s not hard to see that their workforce might switch as well. Especially when it comes to first-time computer owners.
Meanwhile, Linux has a much cheaper price tag than Windows and while it has some rough edges still, it\'s becoming a really interesting alternative to Windows. So... Yea. It\'ll be a huge market, but I think most of it will happen in 3rd-world countries or NICs.
Originally posted by ramlambmoo
So then I ask ye - Why destroy OpenGL and make your OS suck even more? No, better to start playing nice, while there\'s still time, and start building trust instead of trying to bully your own APIs through.
Well, if you dont understand why they\'re doing it now, as I\'ve explained to you earlier, then you never will. Since they have created the most successful computing business ever, and created some of the richest people in the world along with it, one would think they have some idea of how to run a business.
I know exactly *why* they\'re doing it. I just don\'t agree with their reasoning. Microsoft isn\'t stupid, but, to quote a certain professor Dumbledore, \"Just because I\'m smart doesn\'t mean I make mistakes. It just means my mistakes are that much greater when I make them.\" Even smart companies do utterly stupid things from time to time. :P
Now, Microsofts monopoly *will* end. Probably sometime within this decade, but at the very latest next decade. Linux is a viable alternative nowadays, and not a day goes by without me reading about Linux and Open Source making inroads. Linux is here to stay, for better or worse. And Microsoft can stop it as much as they can stop an avalanche.
Originally posted by ramlambmoo
Exactly. I can live without the eye-candy, but I\'m in a minority. And what if there\'s some killer functionality that requires composite desktop to work? All this will do is set back the industry by a couple of years. They can\'t stop the use of OpenGL, but they sure as hell can try.
What if? What if? The point is there isnt some killer OpenGL app, and, with microsoft making these moves, it will ensure that any killer apps in the future will at least have DirectX support, if they want it to be a commerical success. And if its an open source killer app, then someone could just take the source code and port it to DirectX to get it to work on windows.
... Note I said \"Killer *functionality*\", as in the desktop has something that\'s so useful you\'d rather write an OpenGL-game in COBOL than use Windows without it. And don\'t confuse OpenGL-apps with Open Source. OpenGL is a standard, Open Source is a licensing model. Anyone can write a closed-source OpenGL-powered application or game (Doom 3, Half-Life 2, Maya to mention a few of the existing ones).
And need D3D to be a commercial success? It all depends on your market. Like already stated, this means nothing for most GL games since users won\'t notice anything out of the ordinary (except if they alt-tab out of the game). So game devs are pretty much safe there. It\'s the CAD/3D-modelling/Medical software apps that will suffer. And those usually make more money on Macs and *NIX than on Windows.
All this will mean is a bunch of pissed-off devs. And all Microsoft need to do is to give Nvidia/3D-Labs/ATi some information and this issue will cease to exist... What worries me though is that Microsoft hasn\'t said anything about it yet. Not even a vague promise that they will give it sometime when the APIs have stabilized.
Originally posted by ramlambmoo
Of course, much can happen yet. Vista is just in public beta so far. It\'s highly possible the API will change, and that\'s why they won\'t give card vendors the specs to write drivers that play nice with OpenGL and Aeroglass at the same time. I\'m hoping that is just what it is. But if Vista ships the way it is right now... Then they deserve every harsh word they\'ll get.
Let\'s wait and see, shall we?
Yes, and they deserve every harsh word they got for Netscape, and every other technology they killed... but somehow I dont think they\'re too worried about harsh words. I still dont think It will be this way when Vista Ships, but either way it wont affect me, since im not buying vista, and even if I did, I\'ll just turn the eye candy off anyway.
Like I said: Let\'s wait and see.
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Bit off topic but does anyone know if they are still considering a monthly fee to avoid people \"stealing\" windows?
Another thing why would those idiots make stuff run WORSE. Could somone explain their resoning behind this to me...
If there is any :P