PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: r.guppy on August 17, 2005, 08:35:38 pm
-
I am wondering how the stats work on server.
I thought it was to show how players are doing and who got what, for example I was second to get 150 strength, and was pleased to see my name there, looking today my name has gone, does this mean as players get the score it is put under the best whatever, if so then why before the wipe when i managed to get 150 strength my name did not appear.
also if it is only possible to get 120 intelligence in game, how is it possible two players are over that.
Also two days ago I was online for over twelve hours but it was not logged.
On average I play 12 hours a day, yet when I look at best player averages i\'m never on there yet the maximum on there is 9.2522. :)
-
Erm, who cares how this page works? The only useful part of it is the list of who is online ATM. The rest should be gotten rid of better sooner than later. You are the proof that it encourages powerlevelling and whatnot (as if any proof was needed). :tdown:
-
ouch that hurt yes i power level, but i also role play as many know me in game will tell you.
all i ask is how does stats work. :)
-
Well, for the logon time, this averages out overr all time passed since creation of your char. This means that it counts every day you don\'t log in or only short, too. Thus, even if you are on 12 hours on average 5 working days a week you won\'t get listed with that if you don\'t log on for 12 hours on weekend days, too.
For the rest: the thing may simply have changed since the wipe, I wouldn\'t know, never paid attention to it.
-
We\'ve agreed that the player stats bit will be removed in the future once there\'s more things to do. Atm it keeps people amused.
-
well i will keep this short as bighting my tung herts.
Thank you for that very indepth explanation ?????????
i fell so much more informed now :)
-
First I must apologize for double post.
Point 1: Strength has little to do with actual fighting, on the other hand it is very useful for a miner who wishes to carry more of a load, also very handy for a hunter to carry more, so to assume I am a PLer based on that fact alone, shows to me you are ignorant of what stats do for you in game.
Point 2: Many I have talked to in game have found that the server stats page is very useful, to see how well you are doing in regards to hours on-line, who to avoid in Duels situations (and before you put you foot in it again my DP is - 40), and to see who is doing well in Adviser Points, so if you need some simple advice and they are online you can (tells) them for advice if no one answers you on help channel .
So to sum up; if you still think this should be scrapped then so be it, but I would ask you to do a simple poll to see if indeed players use it and if they do; how to improve it. Do not kill something just because you do not like it, after all we are here to help, as you are.
I for one love this game and see a huge chance to build something unique, I will be the first to say my role play is not very good but am learning from those who do, I am hindered by the fact that my spelling is none too good and have to keep to small words, but I must commend the players in-game as most are very helpful with my spelling and thanks to these kind players have been steadily improving. It must be equally hard for players who are just learning English. (Spell checked by the wife before posting.) :)
-
i have no clue what that post was about :D
but to let you know, i suck at RP too... though i try sometimes. so your not alone in that boat..
-
Point 1: is response to Seytra first reply.
Point 2: is a reply to Xordan reply.
The final paragraph is a BIG thank you to kind players in-game :)
-
Point 3: we be needing a big ship... and i shall be known as colonel sanchez the conqueror
-
Originally posted by Drey
Point 3: we be needing a big ship... and i shall be known as colonel sanchez the conqueror
Whatever you say Colonel \'Dirty\' Sanchez.... but one question... where are we going?
-
Janner,
Darling man, your RP is becoming wonderful, you love all who will let you, and is a way indeed.
Your spelling is a problem you will solve, in time. I almost manage to ignore it for the most part. :)
The metrics on the website need to be expanded, if anything, to serve greater purpose than they do now.
And I want to put an end to the bickering over Power Leveler versus Role Player, once and for all. Calling someone one or the other, has started to become an insult, and that should not be.
All of us enjoy each aspect of PS on varying levels, and there is nothing wrong with our preference, whatever it may be. Each and every player adds a unique contribution to the flavor of the world, and the more the variety the better. But as far as type of play is concerned, it is a continuum, a range, and there are three extremes, not two.
To paraphrase the Tin Woodsman, in \"The Wizard of Oz\":
Some people like to go Role Play.
Some people like to go Power Level.
And some people like to go both ways.
Hugs and kisses Janner, who works hardest of us all, to find his way, and follow it, to see where it may lead.
The Dark Lady
Verrliit
-
Janner\'s Armada sets sail to ? Colonel Sanchez :)
Thank you for those kind words milady Verrliit, your servant Janner :)
-
we are heading to kuala lumpur...
where else silly :\\
-
Koala Lumper?
Wow. You really are evil, Drey.
Those poor Koalas...
(Verrliit tries not to grin while pretending to look sad.)
-
Drey I have no idea what you are talking about but I want to go too, just make sure there are plenty of lemons which won\'t be a problem as I know there are many scattered around on the floor here.
r.guppy, do not feel to bad about spelling; I who\'s only known language is English can still not after 17 years spell(or correctly use) the language. During most of my posts I have to go look up words because I have no idea how to spell them correctly.
-
I order my fleet to move in and ready cannons with Oxford English Dictionaries , and send two of my fastest ships ahead to warn the poor Koalas :)
-
Originally posted by r.guppy
Point 1: Strength has little to do with actual fighting, on the other hand it is very useful for a miner who wishes to carry more of a load, also very handy for a hunter to carry more, so to assume I am a PLer based on that fact alone, shows to me you are ignorant of what stats do for you in game.
For what it\'s worth:
If someone has maxed STR, then it\'s likely they will be working to max the other as well.
Even more so if that someone indirectly complains about them not being listed on the wall of shame.
Edit: I do acknowledge that you probably are not the PL I mistook you for, and I commend that you are striving to improve. /Edit
Originally posted by r.guppy
Point 2: Many I have talked to in game have found that the server stats page is very useful, to see how well you are doing in regards to hours on-line, who to avoid in Duels situations (and before you put you foot in it again my DP is - 40), and to see who is doing well in Adviser Points, so if you need some simple advice and they are online you can (tells) them for advice if no one answers you on help channel .
Obviously I understand nothing of your motives. I see absolutely no reason \"to see how well you are doing in regards to hours on-line\". What if you are online only a bit? Will you let the client run while asleep to rise on the stats page? Is there something like \"doing well\" or \"doing badly\" with respect to online time?
The duelling point of yours might be a bit understandable for me, but still I see no point in it. Why do you duel? If not to gain DP, why would it be required to avoid the so called \"duelling champs\", as you will know after one duel, anyway?
The AP thing might even be OK, though such a ranking incites AP grinding, which at least initially lead to problems IIRC. Thouch they are one of the (few) parts of that page that don\'t really bother me.
Originally posted by r.guppy
So to sum up; if you still think this should be scrapped then so be it, but I would ask you to do a simple poll to see if indeed players use it and if they do; how to improve it. Do not kill something just because you do not like it, after all we are here to help, as you are.
What IMO may stay on that page is
1) the list of who is online and
2) the list of AP
Everything else has to go. The DP have to be completely removed from the game, and thus have no place in the ingame menus like the stats screen. Likewise, the AP have no place in there.
@ Verrliit:
The people who like to PL have so many other places to do just that that there is no reason to have them in PS.
I see no reason why we would need to cope with them. This is an MMORPG in the literal sense and original meaning of the abbreviation, not a MULARP (Multi User Levelling And Ranking Platform).
Like when trying to play tennis in a football match, \"player\" does not equal \"player\", and by no means does every player add \"a unique contribution to the flavor of the world\", and most definitely \"the more the variety the better\" is not true. There are more than just a few \"contributions\" that severely detract from the game, not add to it, even some that superficially resemble RP. There are players that don\'t fit / belong into any game, why should PS even think of accommodating or even accepting them? Just like the football team not allowing the tennis player in, PS should not allow non-RPers in.
The people who do both are mostly acceptable.
By no means must the wall of shame be expanded.
-
Originally posted by r.guppy
and send two of my fastest ships ahead to warn the poor Koalas :)
Aye, sir! (http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/figuren/a025.gif)
-
Originally posted by Seytra
The people who like to PL have so many other places to do just that that there is no reason to have them in PS.
I see no reason why we would need to cope with them. This is an MMORPG in the literal sense and original meaning of the abbreviation, not a MULARP (Multi User Levelling And Ranking Platform).
(snipped)
PS should not allow non-RPers in.
The people who do both are mostly acceptable.
By no means must the wall of shame be expanded.
How do you propose to weed out the PLers from the PRers during sign up?
On a side note, I have seen a lot of talk about RP vs. PL, but to be honest with you I don\'t encounter that many RPers (in comparison) in game. Sometimes I catch a mix of RP and OOC chat, but rarely do I catch any strict RPers in groups or solo. This was actually one of the earlier drawbacks to this game for me and my wife and to an extent still is.
As it stands, my wife and I are forced to go through the motions of battling monsters and hanging out looking for others that are more RP oriented. I\'m not a PLer, but at this point I\'m leaning more towards that than RPer because of the lack of options, variety, and other strictly RP characters encountered in game. Perhaps the issue isn\'t that there are PLers, but that there isn\'t enough of a presence of RPers. If power levelling is role-played it shouldn\'t be an issue, but frankly I don\'t see a whole lot of anything being actually role-played.
-
Umm.... How the heck do all threads seem to wind up going on about PLing and RPing? Bit off topic if you ask me...
-
not really second post is abut PLers, and as i started this thread i hope it is allowed to continue.
As I feel to air a problem is a step towards solving it. :)
-
Seytra,
I would like to point out some things that are true:
1. The players that spend the most time in-game know more about what is going on with RP in PS, than anyone else.
2. Most of the RP is not visible. At least ninty percent of it happens in Tell, and in Group chat. Unless you are involved in it, you have no idea it is there. I often stand for hours at a time, mechanically bashing an NPC, while I frantically juggle Tells, sometimes five conversations deep... and those I talk to, are doing the same thing.
To anyone that I am not talking to, it looks like all I am doing is power-leveling.
The RP is there. It is rich, creative and passionate, and only now, is it slowly starting to flourish again, after the wipe almost entirely destroyed it.
3. RP is not handed to a player. If you want to RP, you have to make it happen to you, find others to play with, and think of things to do.
There is not a tourguide for the sights and features of the world. There is no activity calendar or signup sheet for hit-and-run the Ulber.
We could use things like that in the game, though, if you would like to volunteer.
---------
So Seytra, instead of talking about there being a lack of RP in the forums, how about spending more time in-game and taking a bigger part in it? Janner and I could use the help.
Sincerely,
The Dark Lady
Verrliit
-
Since when are /tells considered RP? Besides whispers, of course.
Do you actually know how much Seytra RPs? Because I do ;) Might want to cool down that look-down, Verliit.
-
I can somewhat understand where you are coming from Verrliit, I often test bugs by sitting there doign the same action over and over, while doing many things in hte background, so I can see how a player could be spending the same effort with others. And there is no way for others to tell that is what you are doing. But, as has been pointed out, /tells are about as OOC as playing another game and calling in planeshift. \"Real\" roleplay should be done in person. Tells should be to coordinte things, like \"ok you are getting close, so pretend to not see me for a bit...\"
The RP is there. It is rich, creative and passionate, and only now, is it slowly starting to flourish again, after the wipe almost entirely destroyed it.
May I ask how? Sure guilds needed to be recreaed, and people did not have the items or stats they wanted, but considering no one has the items or stats they really want for RP, that should not matter.
-
Originally posted by stfrn
I can somewhat understand where you are coming from Verrliit, I often test bugs by sitting there doign the same action over and over, while doing many things in hte background, so I can see how a player could be spending the same effort with others. And there is no way for others to tell that is what you are doing. But, as has been pointed out, /tells are about as OOC as playing another game and calling in planeshift. \"Real\" roleplay should be done in person. Tells should be to coordinte things, like \"ok you are getting close, so pretend to not see me for a bit...\"
And here is the issue. If the people most frequently online are roleplaying in /tell or /group then there is nothing visible to the masses but PLing. You will never have a predominantly RP oriented group of players, because little to no RP is visible to the masses.
I must agree with Stfrn, if PS is intended to be an RP realm then all, and I can\'t stress that enough, RPing should be done in person with the characters performing the actions as the situation demands. Otherwise, we have another hack-n-slash game with the side benefit of a box for separate chat/text RP.
-
i have gone back through my log and this is first example at a attempt at RP.
(20:49:34) Janner says: the magic shop for gold milady
(20:49:44) Jilarie says: where
(20:49:57) Jilarie says: show me
(20:50:11) Janner says: long way from here milady
(20:50:28) Jilarie says: where is the gold
(20:50:50) Janner says: have you trained in mining milady
(20:51:00) Jilarie says: not yet
(20:51:19) Janner says: have you been out of town milady
(20:51:37) Jilarie says: yes
(20:51:56) Jilarie says: i died
(20:51:57) Janner says: have you been to main city milady
(20:52:03) Jilarie says: no
(20:52:17) Jilarie says: show me how to get there
(20:52:23) Jilarie says: please
(20:52:35) Janner says: i will lead you there as i am going there now if you want milady
(20:57:30) Jilarie says: do i just have to folow the path
(20:57:44) Janner says: yes milady
(20:57:50) Janner says: ready
(20:57:59) Jilarie says: ty a lot for the help
(20:58:13) Janner says: glad to help
(20:58:15) Jilarie says: se ya
(20:58:44) Jilarie says: are you going to
(20:58:57) Janner says: yes milady
(21:00:19) Jilarie says: you are a real jentilman
(21:00:36) Janner says: thank you
(21:00:45) Janner says: milady
(21:03:11) Jilarie says: lets rest
(21:03:14) Snoin says: hi
(21:03:15) Janner says: this is magic shop
(21:03:38) Janner hello sir
(21:03:44) Snoin says: I\'m new and looking for a place to mine, I guess
(21:04:06) Janner says: gold here sir
(21:04:40) Snoin says: ah
(21:04:55) Snoin says: ok, don\'t even have the skill for it yet
(21:05:13) Janner says: Harnequist trains mining
(21:05:18) Snoin says: thanks anyways. I guess I\'ll go back to rat killing for a while.
(21:07:58) You tell Jilarie: were did you go milady
at this point milady crashed.
on several accessions i have had long conversations with lady varlliit over tells and have gained a great deal from her for which i am very grateful.
-
Just another example of \"excessive\" play:
I\'m a member for just one month now.
a) I could already develop my stats mostly beyond 100, and some skills beyond 20.
b) I\'m involved in quests like \"the Purrties\" or \"the Wildfires\", manage event dates and publish pictures, lead newbies around, give starting weapons away (e.g. daggers).
I wouldn\'t like being reduced to only a).
-
Karyuu.
No, I am not looking down upon Seytra in any way,
Instead, I am pointing to where to find the RP that I know about, and inviting him to help me as I RP my little furry butt off.
You can call Tell a whisper all you want to, but it is functionally equivalent to a multiline cellphone, and is pretty universally used as such...
Stfrn:
All channels of communication are about the same level of IC to OOC, because that is what players do, it matters little which channel it is, they are speaking to one another.
Tells tend, if anything, to be more RP than any other chat, because if something is important, or private, and you are too distant to group, or your target is already grouped, you use tell to say it, and that will come up more often with RP than otherwise. Most of the OOC chat is found either in group, or if it is a small guild, in Guild chat.
The most common tell, next to \"Crap, the lag got me killed again. I\'m gonna go train.\" is probably, \"Hi, I\'m back. What news?\" or \"Hi, welcome back, this is the news\".
As to how RP was almost destroyed by the wipe:
Players at the third extreme that I mentioned before, who do both PL and RP at the same time, are the ones who lead, who perform, who define the RP. They are the storytellers.
The social positions that help define those characters, who are the leaders of the playing community, almost always involves having extreme leveling, which commands respect, and attracts attention.
When you busted everyone down to zero, all of these were forced to make a mad dash for recovery. They have to have a substantial lead on the crowd, in order to exist as characters, and continue their ongoing RP stories.
There is a balance point, an equilibrium, where an average player will give up on leveling, and go look for something else to do.
Almost all of those who are leaders and storytellers have no choice whatsoever. They have to be past that point, to be unusual, to attract attention, to be respected and to have authority.
It is no accident, but hard-driven effort, that placed almost every one of the most deadly weapons in the hands of these leaders. Other players instinctively respect those who worked so hard to obtain them.
So all of these storytellers, who are the source of the RP in PS, put their stories on hold and stopped doing almost any RP. For over a month after the wipe, they became fanatical, sleepless, cranky super-PLers and beat themselves bloody with heartbreaking determination against the limits of endurance and what it was possible to achieve in the framework of the mechanics.
Almost all of them considered quitting. They told me so. Some of them did quit.
That point of equilibrium, where the average player started looking for something else besides leveling to do, was not reached for a very long time. Now that it finally has been, the RP is beginning to resume.
\"But what about the Guilds?\" You asked.
Guilds are built by RP, not the other way around. They do not create it, the storytellers do.
The friendships, fights and love affairs, relationships and explorations that continue, even outside the framework of the guilds; the stories that players create for themselves or join to be a part of, are what have value emotionally, and are why RP players play.
RP is at the individual character level. By definition.
The wipe destroyed my guild, The Twin Blades of Arete, which once had numbered almost thirty.
Most members were Mac users, and as such, doomed to be weeks and months behind those present at the starting line. They can\'t pick up where they left off, no matter what they do. To the best of my knowledge, only three still play. The rest have abandoned PS altogether.
World balance is very different from play balance.
Sincerely,
The Dark Lady
Verrliit.
-
The lack of Mac users I can understand, and I am trying as much as I can without a mac to support mac development.
As for mixed players rushing out to PL and neglecting RP, well, wasn\'t there mistake? If they truely were seeking a balance, they could do that still the same. So there is no argument there for the wipe destroying anything, except non-RP material.
What I do get from what you have said however, is that there does not seem to be enough rewards for anyhting besides blantent killing. Craft skills have been sorely neglected, but even more, there is not very much rewarding of good RP. I will see what can be done there to stop the discouragemnt of Roleplay, the entire point of this game.
-
i shall now state my reply
and this reply will rhyme!
though i\'m not sure why
but, i have the time.
rewarding good RP is hard
for many reasons you see
people could get left out
from all the rewards and glee
so many people
in so many places?
it will be hard to keep track
of all the names and new faces
not only that
but new items too?
a great thing to have
this i know is true
but creating them all
must be hard work
and it\'s even harder
when people act like jerks
and demand new things
oh demands are tough!
i don\'t know how you devs
get through all that stuff
but one thing\'s for sure
the RPers could use a lift
to add some wings
to our game of planeshift
...okay, so it\'s a little incoherent and stuff... not really what i had intended to say at all... i can\'t think when i write poetry.
but dagnabbit! it rhymes! and i haven\'t spammed something of this quality in ages, so *post!!*
-
Originally posted by Verrliit
You can call Tell a whisper all you want to, but it is functionally equivalent to a multiline cellphone, and is pretty universally used as such...
Actually, /tells are not universally accepted as RP, and I frankly have no idea how you came to this conclusion. Wishing it to be so and saying so doesn\'t make it so.
All channels of communication are about the same level of IC to OOC, because that is what players do, it matters little which channel it is, they are speaking to one another.
Agreed, but roleplay in PlaneShift has to function a certain a way... If you are /telling your roleplay with an individual who is in a diferent city, your roleplay has very little basis unless you\'re using telepathic characters. I\'m sure you are aware of the problems.
Tells tend, if anything, to be more RP than any other chat, because if something is important, or private, and you are too distant to group, or your target is already grouped, you use tell to say it, and that will come up more often with RP than otherwise.
For someone who is so into roleplay in general, you seem to have a rather odd idea of how it works here... :) You do know that it is acting out a role, and having your character(s) act pretty much as they would act in our world (mix in the craziness, magic, yadda yadda). You don\'t quite go on talking to people through invisible means here, and neither should characters in PlaneShift - because it\'s not realistic. It\'s one version of RP, granted, but it is not, and should not be the default. Roleplay should be visible to everyone, not just the individual(s) you are involved with - if someone walks into the tavern and you are speaking to another person without whispers, they should hear what you have to say. If you are slaying monsters, you should have a difficulty breaking concentration to something else, such as conversation. This is roleplay, not juggling five or more separate /tells with your character.
The most common tell, next to \"Crap, the lag got me killed again. I\'m gonna go train.\" is probably, \"Hi, I\'m back. What news?\" or \"Hi, welcome back, this is the news\".
And completely OOC, as well.
The social positions that help define those characters, who are the leaders of the playing community, almost always involves having extreme leveling, which commands respect, and attracts attention.
Actually I\'ve happened to notice that good roleplay alone will command a ton more respect and draw far more attention than \"physical\" power.
Almost all of those who are leaders and storytellers have no choice whatsoever. They have to be past that point, to be unusual, to attract attention, to be respected and to have authority.
Authority does not come from your stats.
It is no accident, but hard-driven effort, that placed almost every one of the most deadly weapons in the hands of these leaders. Other players instinctively respect those who worked so hard to obtain them.
Hardly. They are so common nowadays that they are given away. Perhaps in the beginning they were sigils of awe to those that knew where such weapons came from (the tougher creatures of slaying), but having such and such object, or knowing so-and-so who does, does not raise the respect-o-meter for a lot of people.
So all of these storytellers, who are the source of the RP in PS, put their stories on hold and stopped doing almost any RP.
...Um? The source of RP in PS? As if the task is on their shoulders alone :) You started out in a decent respectful manner, but this was a crack in your post. I assure you that far more RP exists than that which you are familiar with. Maybe you should explore the world outside of /tells.
That point of equilibrium, where the average player started looking for something else besides leveling to do, was not reached for a very long time. Now that it finally has been, the RP is beginning to resume.
Hardly! RP has always been going on, no matter the wipe, no matter the crashes, no matter the pauses and breaks and bugs and errors. You make it sound as if the wipe absolutely killed roleplay in PlaneShift completely - and while this is indeed the intention of your post, you couldn\'t possibly be more wrong.
-
Stfrn.
Status report:
The world system as a whole, has reached equilibrium, and most PLing has ceased.
As of the last week or three, normal RP is resuming, and has passed the point of potential die-off of ongoing stories.
More things can be introduced at any time, with the proviso that anything to do with combat should be brought to balance within less than three weeks, to minimise impact of the resulting arms race upon RP.
And the lag is the single largest complaint, at present.
Clarification:
As long as combat and leveling of anything is included in the game, then there will be competition. To call that power-levelling and then say it is undesirable, is wrong.
Competition is inevitable, and necessary. To encourage RP, you can\'t remove PLing. You have put in weapons and monsters and an Arena. Your world is not made of fuzzy bunnies, but warlords and duellists. It is a central structure. Don\'t damage that, design around it.
Instead of trying to cripple what has to be included, focus on the enrichment of the environment.
You want more RP?
Make it easier to talk: Give us cut and paste, and a LOT more shortcut buttons. Add vertical distance to the chat radius, so that people chatting on different floors don\'t hear each other easily.
Give us more material to RP with: More professions and Items and skills.
Give us more of the natural gathering places, where people tend to stop and talk: Put a fire in the darkness of one of the tents in Oja, and people will gather there. Darken the inside of the Oja Cafe, and fix sitting down. Put water in the fountains.
Implement day and night, and make campfires possible.
These will do much more for RP, than playing with the metrics of the combat and looting systems ever will.
Conclusion:
There is no discouragement of RP in PS.
There is only a lack of tools and materials.
Postscript:
I promise you, Stfrn, that if there is another full wipe, without migration for all, that you will lose at least half of the best and brightest performers in the world of PS. You may not be satisfied with my explanation of the reasons why, but rest assured that it is so.
The world you have made is a circus tent, with props and gear inside. The players that have talent, perform. The rest stay to watch the show.
There are at least thirty names that I could name that I know personally as creators of the RP in the world of PS.
I will speak of four.
Lady Agara is matchmaker, for guilds and romance. The other players bring her golden swords to use as tokens of marriage, since we have nothing else.
Bodacher and Ganinos play tricks and tell stories, drink gallons of ale, act as game wardens to the wilderness, and many things besides.
I say wise things, philosophy and poetry, point out the obvious but unnoticed, read minds, tell fortunes, and scare the bejeebers out of those that need it most.
Hundreds of players know us, we have helped them on their way, and we are part of their stories and their world.
All four of us almost left. And if we had, many more that do as we do, and those that follow them, would have left with us, like guests at a party that has come to an end.
We are grateful for the effort that built the tent, the skill that made it beautiful, and most of all that we get to play inside. But no one returns to look at the tent. Without us and those like us....
Noob: So what do you do here?
GM: Kill stuff, loot it, sell, train, buy weapons, repeat.
Noob: Is that all?
GM: Make stuff up yourself if you want. RP.
Noob: Are you making fun of me?
GM: No, it\'s a pre-alpha demo, not a game.
Post Postscript
Karyuu.
I report what I see, in-game.
I speak of what moves me, makes me passionate, and does the same for others around me.
I describe my experience and observation of what is, and how it is used, in PS RP.
I say what I think should be, what will help me, and those that play around me.
If you do not like to use tells the way I do, or RP the way I do, then don\'t. Play your way, with whoever you can get to voluntarily cripple their communications, all you want.
But do not tell me I do not know how RP works in PS, or that I am foolish somehow, or disrespectful in some mysterious way, just because I, and all I have encountered in PS, do not play your style of RP with you.
I think that logging 830 hours since the wipe, with my chat window in All when not grouped, and a buddy list with around 100 names gives me the credentials to speak.
Regardless, PS is a large place, and there should be room for all. Even those that think communication over distance is out of place in a world with magic.
And I never have cracks in my posts unless they are wise ones, Karyuu... :)
Sincerely,
The Dark Lady
Verrliit
-
Well said Lady Verrliit, there are plenty of us who think as you.
-
Well, I have not had much time to be in planeshift recently, and I too try to mix senseless slaughter with roleplay... but tells do not cut it. I\'ve tried to talk to you a few times in the arena Lady Verrliit, and you seemed to be in anouther world. Perhaps you were busy each time, but since we can only report what we see, myself, and newcomers to the game will see you as not a roleplayer. If you are proud of your actions you should let them be known :)
-
Verrliit, your way to \"RP\" is by far not a good one, and most definitely not something that should be more than a rare exception.
There is absolutely no justification to use /tell in RP unless
- you are telepathic, which is not nearly the default
- you are whispering, and even this is not good RP because in a real whisper one could be overheared, so it must be \"/me whispers to XYZ: \"text\"\"
- you have another means of distant communications. I have something like this with three other chars, and even these means aren\'t a cellphone replacement.
What you are doing is not using the tools you were given, you are ignoring them. What you call \"RP\" is only half-hearted, because it bypasses almost the entire world and is in fact no different than RP in IRC.
/tell is always OOC, save the few caveats I mentioned. Still I put my /tell OOC-ness in brackets so there will never be any misunderstanding if I /tell someone whom I could also /tell IC-ly.
/groups are justified for RP only when there is a lot of movement involved that makes /say not feasible due to the distance limit and the hard to precisely control movement that IRL would not happen.
Also, I must tell you that high stats do by far not generate respect with me. Why? Because I 1) know how they were attained: by completely OOC PLing, because otherwise there is no way to get them as fast save cheating and 2) stats are supplemental to RP, not defining. It is ridiculously easy to play an overpowered char, as it takes only very little skill in RP. Those whom I have learned to value as RPers have not demi-god chars, but chars with flaws and a realistic skillset, both in terms of number and levels of skills. They are who lead and shape RP, and it is completely independant on numbers and stats.
Yes, after the wipe, the few stats that are of some importance in my RP are off what they are supposed to and what I RP them to be. Yet I have been levelling only when there was no RP going on. Yes, I did not like losing the in my case actually hard earned stats, but RP went on seamlessly.
In fact, I avoid people whom I have seen PL more than just a bit, because chances are good they aren\'t goor RPers anyway. Likewise, I shun people with names that are not pristine, for the same reason. This also applies to guild names, whether the char is leader or not of the guild. Same reasons. Likewise, I shun the places where only OOC and PL will likely be encountered, like the plaza, the arena and the places with MOBs that drop good and thus are camped all the time.
Yes, the newbies will \"admire\" you for your super stats and items, but they do it because they think that it actually matters, because they likely never played a true RPG. They have been deranged by the MMO\"RP\"Gs that sell PL for RP.
Furthermore, having a lot of people on your buddylist does not serve to prove you a good RPer. It may prove you are liked, but this may very well be OOC. Likewise having a lot of online hours tells nothing ybout your RP\'s quality or even quantity. I have seen more than just a few people who were constantly idling. They must have logged ridiculous amounts of online hours, yet I would never even think of accepting that as measure of RP in any way. If anything, it is detrimental to my respect towards these people, because this sort of idling is abuse of the game and abusing is even more OOC. You are already quoting numbers and demand to be respected due to these, yet these numbers are devoid of meaning.
Yes, PL has almost ceased because the PLs have maxed out all stats and skills by now. Does that mean they are somehow necessary for RP? Definitely not. I have RP\'d quite a deal without involvement of any PL. In fact, I have RP\'d completely without \"support\" of any PL.
Originally posted by Verrliit
As long as combat and leveling of anything is included in the game, then there will be competition. To call that power-levelling and then say it is undesirable, is wrong.
Absolutely not. There is a quite distinct difference between healthy competition and PL. The fighting system is there to define a char, yes. But only as far as the char realistically would cimpete in the game world. And this realistic limit is, more often than not, exceeded several times by any PL. That is OOC competition for the highest numbers, not IC competition for a good life.
Originally posted by Verrliit
Competition is inevitable, and necessary. To encourage RP, you can\'t remove PLing. You have put in weapons and monsters and an Arena. Your world is not made of fuzzy bunnies, but warlords and duellists. It is a central structure. Don\'t damage that, design around it.
Most definitely not. The so called \"Warlords\" are nothing honourable, nothing desirable and most of all nothing respectable. They are merely players who take enjoyment in superceding others in numbers that would never show up IC. The duellists are the exact same, just more blatantly obviously OOC.
The fighting and duelling system is abused 99% of the time for completely OOC purposes.
Originally posted by Verrliit
Instead of trying to cripple what has to be included, focus on the enrichment of the environment.
What you call \"crippling\" is in fact a necessary readjustment to prune the excessive abuse of the system.
However, I even agree with you on a few points:
- when one wishes to RP, one must make the RP oneself.
- there is little implemented that can actually be used as is to support RP.
Both are obvious and by far not new to me. But with some imagination they can be overcome reasonably easily. But the few things that actually work and can be used as is, like \"physical\" presence and proximity of the chars, you ignore.
-
My turn to take a bashing here and take the heat of lady verrliit, i think we all miss a few points here i have my way of doing things you have yours but at end of day i am left with the impression it is your way or go...
Well i for one wont go i am learning how to do this and i have found lady Verrliit to be most helpful, even grumpy old Gholmyrr has tout me a thing or two about role play, we may not see eye to eye but i like him.
I am happy to learn from players who have the patience to help , but like most people do not like to be told to do it or leave, to me you are quick to condemn but no leeway is given by you ,that is how you come over to me and sorry but no go. i am 49 years old served my country and killed for them, i had a position of rank in the British army but was respected not for my rank but as a person.
So i ask you not to be so sharp with your tongs and try to give a little it goes a long way believe me.
On another note if it was not for the PL how would test the game fully, as i feel you have lost sight of the fact that we are here to help test the game.
-
I read this thread a couple of hours ago, and was about to post in reply to Verrlitt, to say that though I had seen her in-game a number of times, I had never seen her doing anything which would be obvious to another as role-playing.
After considering for a while, I decided not to post, and loaded up the game instead.
I started up in the tavern in the middle of a gathering there, and spent the next couple of hours actively role-playing with Verrlitt, and a number of others.
I guess my point is, none of us are together often enough to know what anyone else\'s playing style is; all we can do is assume from the limited amount that we see for ourselves.
Verrlitt, please accept my apology for my incorrect (though unspoken) assumption.
-
Frankly, the excuse of \"testing\" the game is used far too often. CB has been open to the public for so long (and tested numerous times privately) that previously unknown bugs are very rare. Powerleveling is also not the same as testing, although both are completely OOC.
In the end, I think Seytra\'s point about /tells summarizes my views as well: it is no different from roleplaying on IRC, and in PlaneShift, it is not roleplay. Of course you have the complete freedom to do as you wish, but when something else is clearly the default, accepted, and worked-towards way to do something, trying to justify \"roleplay /tells\" seems like having two separate games running and trying to combine them both when completely different things are going on at the same time.
What Verliit was doing in one of the examples she gave was fighting a monster and juggling five different conversations at once, no doubt with people that were nowhere near her. How is this realistic roleplay? You tell me.
I have no doubts that Verliit (and others) are extremely helpful, kind, and inspiring people, as many have pointed out here. But it doesn\'t mean that everything such people do should be exalted, or acceptable.
-
Originally posted by r.guppy
My turn to take a bashing here and take the heat of lady verrliit, i think we all miss a few points here i have my way of doing things you have yours but at end of day i am left with the impression it is your way or go...
Well i for one wont go i am learning how to do this and i have found lady Verrliit to be most helpful, even grumpy old Gholmyrr has tout me a thing or two about role play, we may not see eye to eye but i like him.
You say you try to learn how to RP, yet you don\'t care if what you are told is good or even universally accepted? Also, it is not just my way. It is the only way that is appropriate. Seriously, as Karyuu said, what she (Verrliit) is doing is playing two separete games:
Game 1 is an IRC RP and game 2 is a hack&slash game. However, in doing so she is degrading PS to something it is not. It\'s nieither a graphical chatroom nor is it hack&slash, or even centered on fighting (though due to the limited implementation it may look differently ATM).
Originally posted by r.guppy
I am happy to learn from players who have the patience to help , but like most people do not like to be told to do it or leave, to me you are quick to condemn but no leeway is given by you ,that is how you come over to me and sorry but no go. i am 49 years old served my country and killed for them, i had a position of rank in the British army but was respected not for my rank but as a person.
You see, the internet is not the real world. What counts here is not what you did IRL. Noone can prove or disprove that, anyway, apart from the fact that people may very well not approve of killing under whatever circumstances. You can be the ex president of America (Or even Bush, though that would show), or the queen, it wouldn\'t matter. (Also, postcount or forum age does not matter). Thus, I\'ll give the \"sorry but no go\" back to you.
Instead what counts is what you do here. And if you insist on having things your way while that way clearly isn\'t the way things are meant to be done, then that will be bad.
This is the same as being respected as person not by rank, and thus I don\'t see why you brought these RL things up at all.
Originally posted by r.guppy
So i ask you not to be so sharp with your tongs and try to give a little it goes a long way believe me.
I have had this \"PL is RP\" discussion so many times already it does get sickening. Furthermore, I don\'t think I have been terribly harsh in my posts, anyway. Not overly friendly, yes, but not overly harsh, either. (Though my initial one on this thread was, in retrospect, since you came accross as mere PL who insists on being listed.) Furthermore, what am I supposed to give? My opinion stands, and I have reasons to back it up. Good reasons for all I can see. How am I supposed to make myself clear when I am expected to lie about what I think of what others do, just to please them?
Yes, I could have said \"Well your way to RP is one way, but I think mine is better suited for an MMORPG\". But that\'d have been a lie. With that lie, I would send the message \"It\'s not necessary to change your style\". And that message is the exact opposite of what I intend to say.
Originally posted by r.guppy
On another note if it was not for the PL how would test the game fully, as i feel you have lost sight of the fact that we are here to help test the game.
That is what the GMs are for. They can set their own stats and thus test this sort of thing. The players are play-testing, and as such are expected to go the way the game is intended to be played. Furthermore, even with non PL, there will within reasonable time be people testing the upper end of things, so PL really is not even of benefit to testing.
-
Originally posted by Seytra
I have had this \"PL is RP\" discussion so many times already it does get sickening. Furthermore, I don\'t think I have been terribly harsh in my posts, anyway. Not overly friendly, yes, but not overly harsh, either. (Though my initial one on this thread was, in retrospect, since you came accross as mere PL who insists on being listed.) Furthermore, what am I supposed to give? My opinion stands, and I have reasons to back it up. Good reasons for all I can see. How am I supposed to make myself clear when I am expected to lie about what I think of what others do, just to please them?
Yes, I could have said \"Well your way to RP is one way, but I think mine is better suited for an MMORPG\". But that\'d have been a lie. With that lie, I would send the message \"It\'s not necessary to change your style\". And that message is the exact opposite of what I intend to say.
Your opinion is not always necessary especially when it is to flame someone for asking a question and then proceed to get on your hobbyhorse. You may be right about the strict rules for roleplay but you don\'t have to ram it down everyone\'s throats. You don\'t have to lie, better to say nothing at all, but I guess that is hard for you since you have 1677 posts since May 2004.
At the end of the day this is just a game, why is it so important that everyone plays the same way? We play to enjoy ourselves and if we are knocked because our play does not match up to another\'s ideals then that just spoils our enjoyment. Do we get in the way of your fun??
-
Pip, take a breather. Seytra wasn\'t \"ramming\" anything down anyone\'s throat in any of his posts here. He never flamed, he never lied. Please calm down.
PlaneShift is just a game, but it is a game with many people involved, and a community that works a certain way (and has been working a certain way ever since it was born). It\'s just something to take into consideration, and perhaps adapt to. None of the comments or suggestions here, from people that prefer open RP as opposed to /tells, are without reason, purpose, good intent, and ease of adaptation.
-
Karyuu, if you read the quote in my post you will see that I am not accusing Seytra of lying.
I am all in favour of open roleplay but how is roleplay in /tell hurting anyone else. Why not allow those who want to play that way to just get on with it?
In this situation a softly softly approach of lead by example would be much more beneficial that continuing an argument that noone can win.
-
both you and i read her post wrong (pip).
I am here husband and i just spook to here she was referring to quote of Seytra not calling here a lier.
my point on my real life was to be blunt respect is one from others not go with tittle.
-
You don\'t have to lie, better to say nothing at all, but I guess that is hard for you since you have 1677 posts since May 2004.
Then what was this all about?
Roleplay in /tell isn\'t hurting those who participate in it, Pip, but it\'s not the default way to roleplay. And if no one sees any roleplay going on, then it\'s hard to just jump in, right? :)
Besides, roleplay is supposed to be more or less realistic, and again, /tells have no IC realism in PlaneShift besides whispers, magic, etc.
-
I\'ve been trying to avoid this, but my nature seems to have pulled me in... So, here I go.
I want to reiterate: there is no role-play in /tells unless there is a good out-of-character reason for it. By default, all tells are OOC. Whenever I role-play in tells (i.e. let\'s say I activate a magic stone that allows me to talk to someone with the companion stone) I specify before hand OOC in the tell and then put all of my IC tells in quotes. Other than this sort of justified tell use, role-playing in tells does not exist.
It seems to me that what you\'re really doing is power-leveling and chatting with some people to pass the time between monster-spawns and killing.
When I read this:
Originally posted by Verrliit
...I often stand for hours at a time, mechanically bashing an NPC, while I frantically juggle Tells...
I think, \"Gee, mechanically bashing an NPC for hours while trying to role-play in tells... why doesn\'t Verrliit go talk to these people in person if she wants role-play? Oh, she\'s too busy killing the NPC. But if she wants to role-play and she has hours why doesn\'t she go talk to the people? Well, killing the NPC must be more important.\"
In my eyes, once killing the NPC is more important than going to talk to the people you want to role-play with, the hours spent killing the NPC are hours spent power-leveling. If you\'re off on an adventure with a friend or even by yourself off killing things in-character, that\'s fine, as long as you act in-character in town when you go to sell your goods and what-not. But when you\'re role-playing in tells, that\'s a problem. You clearly have people to role-play with and you have reason for role-playing with them, so go do it.
If you\'re going to talk to someone in character, do it in person, out loud. Not even in group chat. Group chat should be consider out of character as well, except in rare circumstances (if everyone has some magic long-distance communication spell, for instance).
Basic summary for everyone who skipped the long paragraphs above: role-playing in tells while killing monsters seems a lot like power-leveling to me. Tells can be used for role-play in limited circumstances, but it\'s rare. For the most part, if you\'re going to role-play, do it in person.
-
Counter-Summary for those who should have read the long paragraphs above, the first time.
1. Two of the top three most active players in all of PS, posted questions, experiences, observations and opinions.
2. We were told that the only thing that can be called roleplay, is something that might barely support interactions between six very polite players in the same room, provided there is only one topic, and no one outside is interested in talking to them.
3. We were also marginalized with the ficticious label of Power Leveler, and told we should be quiet, for as such we could have no idea what we were talking about.
Today I accepted an oath of fealty, from a classical chivalric Knght. We had never met until last night, when he asked to enter my service, based solely upon my reputation.
I call that roleplay that was the result of prior roleplay, and in what manner it was done, I call that irrelevant.
I am the Dark Lady, Verrliit.
What my detractors are, I shall leave unspoken.
-
Originally posted by Karyuu
You don\'t have to lie, better to say nothing at all, but I guess that is hard for you since you have 1677 posts since May 2004.
Then what was this all about?
It was about this:
Originally posted by Seytra
How am I supposed to make myself clear when I am expected to lie about what I think of what others do, just to please them?
Yes, I could have said \"Well your way to RP is one way, but I think mine is better suited for an MMORPG\". But that\'d have been a lie. With that lie, I would send the message \"It\'s not necessary to change your style\". And that message is the exact opposite of what I intend to say.
I said you needed to read the quote but it must be too much trouble.
-
You quoted Seytra\'s entire post, so it was a bit hard to pinpoint the exact statement you were referring to. I honestly apologize for not seeing it the first time. However, my reply to you had no hostility whatsoever, while yours tend to possess it rather frequently as of late. If I may make a formal request - please try to post without any condescending tones :)
-
I am sorry, you are right, my mood over the last few days has not been good. I will moderate my tone, I am not normally hostile but I really think there is room for everyone in this game and just because some people have a different idea of what roleplay is doen\'t mean you can make them feel unwelcome.
I understand that certain ways of playing are not proper roleplay but for some; sticking to a set of rules is stifling and taking it all too seriously. There is somewhere in the forum a roleplaying guide, why not just pop in a link to that and let players take from it what they like, instead of telling people that they don\'t know how to roleplay and shouldn\'t be in the game.
People are here and stay because they like it and if they just wanted to powerlevel they wouldn\'t like it.
-
Originally posted by Verrliit
1. Two of the top three most active players in all of PS, posted questions, experiences, observations and opinions.
Ah yes, quoting statistics again? Well, I have told you already that they mean absolutely nothing. Is someone who has less time to spend in PS necessarily less informed than you are? Does online time equal quality or even quantity of RP? Surely not. But obviously you have nothing except these figures to base your claim of superiority on, since otherwise you would not have to resort to that. :tdown:
Feel free to think that numbers grant respect. r.guppy knows they don\'t ( \"my point on my real life was to be blunt respect is one from others not go with tittle.\" ), and so do I.
There have been others (idlers, blatant PLs, all sorts of people) ranking high on that list before you, and others will come after you. Feel free to cherish these numbers as long as they last, but know that they don\'t make me respect you any more than without them.
Originally posted by Verrliit
2. We were told that the only thing that can be called roleplay, is something that might barely support interactions between six very polite players in the same room, provided there is only one topic, and no one outside is interested in talking to them.
And you think that is RP? What you are describing looks like you are not even engaged in the same situation with the people you /tell! Seriously, has it ever happened to you IRL that you were in the mall with a friend, at home with your neighbors, at school with a classmate, on a trip to a foreigh country with a teacher and at church talking to the priest at the very same instance of time? Because that is precisely what you are \"Roleplaying\". So unless your char is a multidimensional, time travelling being, there is no way that you are RPing.
If you are in a place, then that place and the people who are in that place are the situation your char is in, and nothing else (though obviously non RPers and trolls must be ignored IC).
And if the others happen to not be in that place, then they aren\'t there for your char to interact with. Plain and simple.
I try to maintain a clear temporal sequence in my RP, and it works out reasonably well. With your approach, it would be pure chaos, where either no RP can ever influence another, or they all do randomly, depending on who /tells first. This breaks realism quite badly, and also removes a level of depth from the possible RP. Yes, it can be a problem if you wish to RP with several people but the RP\'s cannot be joined for whatver reasons. However, you can\'t just use /tell to do both simultaneously. If anything, it makes you unreliable for the other players you are /tell-\"RP\"ing, because they can never rely on you correctly assigning memories to your char. So apart from excluding everyone from your RP, this is, at least when the RPs would realistically overlap occasionally, detrimental to other\'s RP. Not to mention that it breaks continuity and consistency.
Originally posted by Verrliit
and in what manner it was done, I call that irrelevant.
I call that highly relevant. The end does not justify the means.
Originally posted by Pip
You may be right about the strict rules for roleplay but you don\'t have to ram it down everyone\'s throats. You don\'t have to lie, better to say nothing at all, but I guess that is hard for you since you have 1677 posts since May 2004.
Yes, it is hard for me. In fact, I blatantly refuse to stay silent when I clearly disagree with something that is obviously wrong. Though I wonder why you pull in my postcount and forum age here. Wouldn\'t that, by the logic used by Verrliit, automatically make me right in all I say, since it\'s so obviously higher than yours or hers? :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Pip
At the end of the day this is just a game, why is it so important that everyone plays the same way? We play to enjoy ourselves and if we are knocked because our play does not match up to another\'s ideals then that just spoils our enjoyment. Do we get in the way of your fun??
Obviously what makes a game isn\'t clear: that everyone plays by the same rules. I seriously wonder why this simple fact so often is overlooked when it comes to MMORPGs. Take the rules from any game, like chess, and \"let everyone play the way they enjoy it most\" and what do you get? Chaos in which almost noone ends up having fun. Face it, without rules, there can never be any game. So yes, you do get in my way of fun in PS, because you aren\'t playing by the rules and thus exclude me (potentially) from RPing with you (either because I\'d have to break the rules to engage in RP with you, or cannot notice there is an opportunity to RP with you), possibly even destroying my RP due to inconsistencies and unresolvable time conflicts in your multi-RP. Yes, your argument now will be \"just stay away from us\". And this is precisely what I will do, but quite obviously my RP will be lessened by that choice (though lessened less than the damage that it would take when I\'d engage in your way of \"RP\".), and possibly yours as well.
So no, I do not accept you doing this \"your\" way, because your way is detrimental to PS as a whole. The only way you get to RP is because others do it the right way, since otherwise they\'d be /telling each other and never speak to you, nor hear of you at all.
-
Seytra, I truly think that you\'re going a bit overboard on this one.
Yes, I agree with you that the only \"real\" RP is when it\'s done in person, I also only use /tells ooc or for whispering. But you can\'t say that other people doing it differently are damaging your gaming experience. As you mentioned yourself, this is something that you\'ll rather not notice. Further, your argument that this is a loss to you because you won\'t be able to engage in RP with these people. Well, here\'s the point: It\'s not a real loss to you.
Imagine people who only see this game as a bit of monster-slashing fun after a hard day at work. Imagine people who just log in for half an hour, because they don\'t have more time (you can\'t RP in that case). Imagine people who, for whatever reason, don\'t want to RP at all or with you specifically. These people exist, and there\'s lots of them. And there always will be, realistically: look at any other MMORPG with an average of more than 15 players online.
Now, my point is: these players can hardly be said to be damaging your RP. If you have had any experience with MMORPGs at all, you must have learned to ignore them. They can\'t be more damaging to your RP than people who aren\'t there at all (or is everybody else damaging your RP by plainly not being logged on and thus deprieving you of the possibility to RP with them?). And for you, seeing it from the outside, the difference between these people and people who \"/tell-RP\" is... well, NIL.
By the way, imagine a \"real\" fantasy world with lots of people going after their business. And now imagine how much attention you\'d get from the average person living there. A grunt maybe, if you\'re especially annoying, but most likely none at all. The people interacting with you (\"RPing\") would be a few chosen friends, seen against a background of lots of people you don\'t know and who ignore you - and who you ignore.
So, I even dare say that lots of people who don\'t RP with you just increase the quality your RP can reach by simulating that indifferent background population that, technically, you could talk to and interact (RP) with, but who you will realistically never have any more contact with than the occasional \"Pardon, you happen to know where xxx is? No? Well, thanks anyway\".
And, last thing, my experience is that RPing in an empty world with just the people I know and play with regularily is just as bad as RPing in a world where you can\'t have a second of peace to RP with your friend because everybody tries to interact with you. The background hustle of people you don\'t know going about their business (whatever that business is - may it be their own RP, /tell-RP or powerlevelling - you don\'t know) is... well, very nice.
And for those who didn\'t want to read all of this: I think that having a lot of people online who don\'t RP with you and a group of people you do RP with is the best solution - and there it doesn\'t matter if these other people /tell-RP or do something else while they\'re not interacting with you.
-
Originally posted by grayFalcon
Imagine people who only see this game as a bit of monster-slashing fun after a hard day at work. Imagine people who just log in for half an hour, because they don\'t have more time (you can\'t RP in that case). Imagine people who, for whatever reason, don\'t want to RP at all or with you specifically. These people exist, and there\'s lots of them. And there always will be, realistically: look at any other MMORPG with an average of more than 15 players online.
Now imagine a game that isn\'t meant for such people, will not cater to such people, and has a strong community who have no love, fondness, and very little tolerance for such people. This is PlaneShift :| No matter how many times this has been said, and sadly no matter how many times this came off as \"snobbish,\" \"closed-minded,\" or \"wrong,\" this still stands: if anyone doesn\'t like the way things work here, particularly the need for RP and not PL, they are free to leave, and will most likely be asked to.
-
I couldn\'t agree with Karyuu more. PlaneShift is all about giving you options for how you can roleplay, however, that does not mean that you should just stick to the first thing that works for you. To an extent, playing planeshift should be a learning expernce in how people all around the world view roleplaying. What your stats are, is in no way comparable to the people you meet. You are free to try to increase them, but do not let the persuite of numbers distract you from others.
-
Finally the voice of reason i wondered how long it would be before one showed up, thank you.
KEY WORDS learning expernce in how people all around the world view roleplaying. :)
-
why is this in the server discussion thread?
Easton Ghent
-
Originally posted by Karyuu Now imagine a game that isn\'t meant for such people, will not cater to such people, and has a strong community who have no love, fondness, and very little tolerance for such people. This is PlaneShift :| No matter how many times this has been said, and sadly no matter how many times this came off as \"snobbish,\" \"closed-minded,\" or \"wrong,\" this still stands: if anyone doesn\'t like the way things work here, particularly the need for RP and not PL, they are free to leave, and will most likely be asked to.
May i ask if this kind of speaking is official or personal?
Because i\'ve never heard words worst than this before.... and in a so-called internet community too :(
Do you really think that i must feel not enough \'good\' for you (or for PS) because english is not my natural language (so RP is a little hard for me in the official PS language), because no one tried to explain me online (i\'m not a so called forum player) how can i RP in a good way and because the PS team (if is an official post) thinks that i\'m \'useless\' now that all the mayor bug are fixed?
Hope you are kidding because i don\'t want to have nothing to do with people like you......
So please vue that you are a \'Community moderator\' please let me know if your words are the official PS kind of thinking.
P.S. to all: sorry for my bad english, i do my best to be understood (and to understand other people too)
-
My last post was from an official stand taken by the PlaneShift development team. There are many internet communities out here - and their being on the internet alone doesn\'t mean that anyone with an internet connection is immediately welcome. Communities all have rules and some sense of order, by definition, and the rules of PlaneShift protect roleplay first and foremost above anything else, and aim to make any other use of the game hardly worth it, such as powerleveling.
Sadly and unfixably, PlaneShift is an English game and will always remain so. Translations of the Player Guide and in-game menus are welcome, but English is still the official and only allowed language in public chat. You seem to have a decent hold on it, however, and no one will make fun of you or ignore you if you have difficulties speaking sometimes. There are many here who are like that :) But the English-only in public in-game chat is a very strictly enforced rule, and has always been.
You, and anyone else who wishes to roleplay, are not useless. And a great many bugs aren\'t fixed yet, but players often have very little to do with fixing :)
If you want to have nothing to do with me, or people like me, then you won\'t like PlaneShift\'s development team much... For they work on the game for it to have one central purpose - open fantasy roleplay, not mindless monster slaughter and stat training.
@Easten: I hope someone will split this topic soon, or at least move it elsewhere. It indeed does not belong here.
-
Just a last thought from me:
If you find someone does a poor job following your oh-so-tight rules about how-to-roleplay-correctly, please consider: There are people who are not yet used to roleplaying games. For me, e.g., PlaneShift is my first MMORPG ever (mainly because it\'s free). Before approaching this kind of game, I even had only rare experience with single-user RPGs, where I could expect a defined plot and a remarkable advantage by training my skills (e.g. \"Gothic\").
A bad teacher tells you just that you are wrong.
A good teacher tells you how to do it better.
Please, don\'t make me feel unwelcome, just because I don\'t know all the details of rules about roleplaying. I want to learn - and I want you to teach me. But please, not by throwing a heap of laws on me and leaving me there...
In the one month being a member here, I learned a lot about roleplaying. Sometimes I\'m a bit helpless (especially when a character does not want to tell more about his concerns than \"...\"; or maybe due to a limited vocabulary). But sometimes, I am even successful in introducing a common phrase for a technical workaround (e.g. \"wipe eyes\" for unsticking to solve graphic glitches) or similar things. These are the little pieces I enjoy.
So far, just my thoughts. Please don\'t take them personal. But try to take them on.
-
These are not my rules :) They are the rules of the development team and community as a whole. Please consider this too.
I am not saying at all that you can\'t learn to roleplay or that you shouldn\'t be allowed to, or that you should come in here with all the necessary knowledge already under your belt. To expect that would be pure folly. My last couple of posts simply addressed the purpose of PlaneShift - roleplay as opposed to... well, a lack of it, or a refusal to participate in it, as some have either hinted at or bluntly stated.
There are wonderful teachers in this community, many of whom have taught me as well as those who came before and after. It would be silly of me to claim some sort of superiority. But there are still \"correct\" ways to go about doing things in PlaneShift, and it\'s better to learn about them in some form and try to adapt than learn and ignore.
I sincerely apologize if any of my previous posts came off as arrogant or harsh - it wasn\'t my intention at all. But while PlaneShift is a free game, it is still meant to cater to a certain type of crowd, not everyone in the world :) Again, doesn\'t mean you can\'t learn.
-
Ah, why does it always happen that people attack a small, meaningless side-sentence in my post, ignoring the whole message?
Well, anyway, your view is very idealistic, Karyuu. This is a dream about every MMORPG-gamemaster/developer shares. But as I already said: I have never seen any game that managed to keep a strictly RP-oriented community while growing popular. In my eyes, this is a privilege reserved for small, hard-to-find and little-known games. Every MMORPG I have known has had a nice start with a few players who did RP very well, but was then, when it grew popular, flooded with PLs. I\'m afraid you\'ll just have to learn to live with them, because, unfortunately, I have not yet seen a way to effectively keep them out.
On the other hand, they are not even that unrealistic - look at all the workoholics without a life in our real world ;)
As I already said: A background noise of people going about their business without interacting with you is just normal, and kind of nice to have. And meanwhile, I couldn\'t care less about what they do while not interacting with me. And hey, if I do try to RP with them and they just go off and prefer mindless monster-slaying - their loss. If I talk to somebody on the street in real life, most of them will also just ignore me and go back to work (they have a day that\'s basically: wake up, eat, work, eat, sleep, rinse, repeat - kinda PL, isn\'t it?).
Don\'t get me wrong, I don\'t love PLs, and I\'m not one of them. But I have learned to accept them, as they can\'t be gotten rid of, and I also have seen quite a few PLs become pretty decent roleplayers with the right assistance.
Short for those reasonable who don\'t want to read all of my rambling: I think that you can\'t get rid of PLs, so you have to accept them. And you can if you see them as that workoholic, not socially involved part of the population that you also have in real life.
-
Hear here, grayFalcon. I agree wholeheartedly with what you are saying.
-
Yes. Thank you for your last comments, Karyuu, grayFalcon - now I am relieved. I don\'t call myself a \"Power Leveler\", I like roleplaying as well (as good as I can). :)
-
I totaly agree grayFalcon :)
-
You don\'t realise how many minds you just spoke for ;)
110% agree with everything said in that post.
-
Originally posted by grayFalcon
Yes, I agree with you that the only \"real\" RP is when it\'s done in person, I also only use /tells ooc or for whispering. But you can\'t say that other people doing it differently are damaging your gaming experience. As you mentioned yourself, this is something that you\'ll rather not notice. Further, your argument that this is a loss to you because you won\'t be able to engage in RP with these people. Well, here\'s the point: It\'s not a real loss to you.
Obviously I failed to express myself clearly. Yes, I do not notice the people are RPing. However, that is the exact point: They are RPing, but because they don\'t do it in the proper way, I am effectively excluded from partaking in their RP. This is not realistic, because IRL, when people are talking and you are near them, then you will hear them. Have you never been standing near some people talking and volunteered advice when they had a problem you knew the answer to and they did not?
If they were /tell ing, that would not be possible. Now add to that the way gossip works: People standing somewhere and talking, others pass by and overhear something they are interested in and stay, and so the goup grows. Mostly found in taverns or near the wells in towns, or the marketplace. Again, if you /tell, you obviously take away from all others to enjoy or even participate in your RP.
Originally posted by grayFalcon
Imagine people who only see this game as a bit of monster-slashing fun after a hard day at work.
Then they misunderstood the point of PS, and are in the wrong game. There are plenty of other MMO\"RP\"Gs out there that don\'t mind this sort of people. Why should PS betray itself to accommodate people who don\'t give anything back?
Originally posted by grayFalcon
Imagine people who just log in for half an hour, because they don\'t have more time (you can\'t RP in that case).
I agree that you will not be able to RP a lot, but PLing won\'t really work as well, as it wastes a lot more time.
Originally posted by grayFalcon
Imagine people who, for whatever reason, don\'t want to RP at all or with you specifically. These people exist, and there\'s lots of them.
I don\'t mind the people who just don\'t want to RP with me. But I do mind those who don\'t want to RP at all, because they are not the target audience of PS, and not wanted here, and thus better be gotten rid of now than later.
Originally posted by grayFalcon
And there always will be, realistically: look at any other MMORPG with an average of more than 15 players online.
Yes, it is unfortunate that this tends to happen. However, Ps has a big advantage over these other MMO\"RP\"Gs: it is not commercial in any way. Therefore, noone i PS is pressured by marketroids or CEOs to have as many players (=customers=$$$) as possible. Therefore, PS can crack down on those that are not meant to be here.
Originally posted by grayFalcon
Now, my point is: these players can hardly be said to be damaging your RP. If you have had any experience with MMORPGs at all, you must have learned to ignore them.
Oh, I do ignore them. From an RP POV. But I do not ignore them from an OOC POV. Ignoring them would be accepting them, and this would be catering to them, betraying PS and myself.
Originally posted by grayFalcon
They can\'t be more damaging to your RP than people who aren\'t there at all (or is everybody else damaging your RP by plainly not being logged on and thus deprieving you of the possibility to RP with them?). And for you, seeing it from the outside, the difference between these people and people who \"/tell-RP\" is... well, NIL.
There is a definite difference, actually. People who aren\'t in PS obviously deprive me of their RP, yes. However, they then don\'t make use of PS. But once one enters PS, then they can be expected to be available for RP, because that is the entire point of PS. If you require an assessment of damage, then the most tangible and obvious one is that they are then draining bandwidth and computing power off the server and the clients (that need to render their \"chars\") while not using PS the way it is intended to be used. Therefore my RP gets hindered by performance loss and thus less smooth gameplay. People who don\'t log in don\'t. But this is not really the point: the point is: when you enter an RPG, then you agree to RP, because you do enter because you want to RP. When you don\'t want to RP, then you are not supposed to enter at all. You don\'t enter a tennis court to then sit there and read the newsaper. See how long you will be tolerated there.
Originally posted by grayFalcon
By the way, imagine a \"real\" fantasy world with lots of people going after their business. And now imagine how much attention you\'d get from the average person living there. A grunt maybe, if you\'re especially annoying, but most likely none at all. The people interacting with you (\"RPing\") would be a few chosen friends, seen against a background of lots of people you don\'t know and who ignore you - and who you ignore.
Yes, and ehter are lots of these. However, this same thing happens when you RP: when your chars have no reason to interact, then they won\'t. However, the big difference is that there is always the possibility that a reason to interact will pop up. And only when both are RPers, this can be made into RP, however brief.
Originally posted by grayFalcon
So, I even dare say that lots of people who don\'t RP with you just increase the quality your RP can reach by simulating that indifferent background population that, technically, you could talk to and interact (RP) with, but who you will realistically never have any more contact with than the occasional \"Pardon, you happen to know where xxx is? No? Well, thanks anyway\".
Same as above. There are a lot of RPers with whom my char has no or almost no contact. But contrary to the mindless PL, they are people in a world, not a set of numbers inside a database. I.e., you can meaningfully interact with them if there is reason to. RP reason, that is, not \"How do I get my toolbar to show up?\".
Originally posted by grayFalcon
And, last thing, my experience is that RPing in an empty world with just the people I know and play with regularily is just as bad as RPing in a world where you can\'t have a second of peace to RP with your friend because everybody tries to interact with you. The background hustle of people you don\'t know going about their business (whatever that business is - may it be their own RP, /tell-RP or powerlevelling - you don\'t know) is... well, very nice.
Yes, a world populated by RPers will, superficially, look similar to what you describe. However, the finer points are 1) the way communication takes place (i.e., RP aware vs. uncaring) and 2) the options to meaningfully interact are many vs. none.
Originally posted by grayFalcon
And for those who didn\'t want to read all of this: I think that having a lot of people online who don\'t RP with you and a group of people you do RP with is the best solution - and there it doesn\'t matter if these other people /tell-RP or do something else while they\'re not interacting with you.
The major difference is not the superficial looks, but the option and possibility to RP when there is an opportunity / reason to, from your chars POV. With RPers who RP the right way, these are there. With non RPers or those who refuse to do it the right way, these possibilities are lacking, and you might just as well put NPCs without any scripting ingame to replace these drones.
Originally posted by grayFalcon
I think that you can\'t get rid of PLs, so you have to accept them. And you can if you see them as that workoholic, not socially involved part of the population that you also have in real life
No. Apart from what I wrote above, IRL there are by far less \"workaholics\" than there are PLs ingame. Also, a workaholic will still act meaningfully, if only by saying \"Sorry, but I have to work\". They won\'t ignore you or speak OOC.
Accepting PLs is what makes other communities fall prey to them, because accepting is condoning. Silent majority, slowly turning into the silent minority. The community must, as a whole, discourage non RP and must never accept those who don\'t fit in and aren\'t willing to change / learn.
I am always perfectly willing to aid others in learning how to RP, but I am unwilling to put up with \"I don\'t care for RP, I just want to play my way so leave me alone!\" type of people.
-
Originally posted by Karyuu My last post was from an official stand taken by the PlaneShift development team. There are many internet communities out here - and their being on the internet alone doesn\'t mean that anyone with an internet connection is immediately welcome. Communities all have rules and some sense of order, by definition, and the rules of PlaneShift protect roleplay first and foremost above anything else, and aim to make any other use of the game hardly worth it, such as powerleveling.
It\'s about 8-9 months that i play PS and i have met a lot of people. The big difference between PL and RP is that PL speaks with you and explain you how to kill (!!!) monsters in the best way and what are the bests stats/skills to develope. RP just ignore you because you didn\'t met his/her basic requirements (maybe i\'ve spoken with the wrong ones) :(
Consequences of this kind of acting are well known.... last days before the wipe there was 15-25 players on line, now that there are new weapons and characters to develope there are 115-125 characters playing happy. This is something that the community can\'t ignore.
No one teaching and all around saying that people didn\'t learn nothing......in one word sad, really sad.
Originally posted by Karyuu [/Sadly and unfixably, PlaneShift is an English game and will always remain so. Translations of the Player Guide and in-game menus are welcome, but English is still the official and only allowed language in public chat. You seem to have a decent hold on it, however, and no one will make fun of you or ignore you if you have difficulties speaking sometimes. There are many here who are like that :) But the English-only in public in-game chat is a very strictly enforced rule, and has always been.
Sure, i was not saying that English have something wrong, i just tried to explain one of the difficulties that people can have if wants to RP more and english is not his/her natural language
Originally posted by Karyuu [/You, and anyone else who wishes to roleplay, are not useless. And a great many bugs aren\'t fixed yet, but players often have very little to do with fixing :)
Players can\'t fix them but some of us speaks with GM reporting them (and i\'m sure most of the \'old\' players does it)
Originally posted by Karyuu [/If you want to have nothing to do with me, or people like me, then you won\'t like PlaneShift\'s development team much... For they work on the game for it to have one central purpose - open fantasy roleplay, not mindless monster slaughter and stat training.
I was sure to be misunderstood here.... with your words you was giving no possibilities to no one to learn how to play fair because there is no place for RP noobs in PS (but maybe i misunderstood)
-
Originally posted by Seytra
Obviously I failed to express myself clearly. Yes, I do not notice the people are RPing. However, that is the exact point: They are RPing, but because they don\'t do it in the proper way, I am effectively excluded from partaking in their RP. This is not realistic, because IRL, when people are talking and you are near them, then you will hear them.
This is, in my eyes, contradicting what you said later:
Originally posted by Seytra
However, this same thing happens when you RP: when your chars have no reason to interact, then they won\'t. However, the big difference is that there is always the possibility that a reason to interact will pop up.
[...]
Also, a workaholic will still act meaningfully, if only by saying \"Sorry, but I have to work\". They won\'t ignore you or speak OOC.
The way I see it is that /tell-RPing people can still be talked to, they will still give you a meaningfull anwser, and they even may engage in, short though it may be, RP with you, if you talk to them. So, what is the difference between a /tell-RPer and somebody who just goes about his business and has nothing to do with you? How is this wrong?
Anyway, you can\'t stop it. /tell is a tool that\'s readily available. And, if push came to shove, what would you say against \"Leamme alone, I\'m telepathic\"?
I do take your following point concerning PLs:
Originally posted by Seytra
But this is not really the point: the point is: when you enter an RPG, then you agree to RP, because you do enter because you want to RP. When you don\'t want to RP, then you are not supposed to enter at all. You don\'t enter a tennis court to then sit there and read the newsaper. See how long you will be tolerated there.
May I, however, ask how you intend to discourage PLers from coming into PS? I think that they have to be in a way tolerated because you just can\'t get rid of them. And you still can try to introduce them to real RP.
As for people who /say ooc, I think this should be a jailable offense (hey, we need a jail ;) ) - it really is something that can destroy RP for others. This would also (hopefully) teach PLers to at least anwser in a reasonable way when talked to (a simple \"pardon me, but I have pressing affairs of my own\" is better than \"mompl got 2 go kill need only 40 more xp\"). This would make them a mere \"workoholic\" background again. And as such I don\'t see them damaging your RP, other than the resource thing you mentioned. I don\'t believe though that this is really grave, if noticable at all.
-
Originally posted by Esserfin
It\'s about 8-9 months that i play PS and i have met a lot of people. The big difference between PL and RP is that PL speaks with you and explain you how to kill (!!!) monsters in the best way and what are the bests stats/skills to develope. RP just ignore you because you didn\'t met his/her basic requirements (maybe i\'ve spoken with the wrong ones) :(
PL speaks with you and explains how to kill monsters and raise stats and nothing else - this is not what PlaneShift is for, again. Powerlevelers may be found here, but the game was not intended for them, will not concentrate on them, and will try hard to make any powerleveling not worth the effort, again. For example, it has been discussed that quests may give a lot more in the future than any mindless monster slaughter, and monster slaughter would give so little as to be nearly insignificant. PlaneShift is a roleplaying game, no matter what. If you\'re looking for something with more \"kill,\" this isn\'t the game for you...
Consequences of this kind of acting are well known.... last days before the wipe there was 15-25 players on line, now that there are new weapons and characters to develope there are 115-125 characters playing happy. This is something that the community can\'t ignore.
Wipes are a necessary step in development, and as Seytra stated in a previous post, this game isn\'t commercial and thus the development team is under no pressure at all to attract the largest playerbase - but the most fitting one.
No one teaching and all around saying that people didn\'t learn nothing......in one word sad, really sad.
People are teaching all the time. There is a guide in Hydlaa Plaza on roleplay, for example, and if you come up to some people in-game and say that you are a beginner in this whole RP business, I have no doubts whatsoever that there will be plenty of people to help you out. But if all you are doing is running around killing things that spawn every other minute, you\'re not going to find any teachers, right? You have to look a little, extend a bit more effort :)
Sure, i was not saying that English have something wrong, i just tried to explain one of the difficulties that people can have if wants to RP more and english is not his/her natural language
Again, sad but unfixable. PlaneShift is an English roleplaying game.
I was sure to be misunderstood here.... with your words you was giving no possibilities to no one to learn how to play fair because there is no place for RP noobs in PS (but maybe i misunderstood)
You definitely misunderstood. In the first post of mine that you addressed, I was simply saying that there is no place for powerleveling without any roleplay in PlaneShift. I never made any insinuation that there is no possibility to learn.
-
Man this is too bad... I have missed out on what seems to be a good conversation so far. As for me though, which I may be a little different, nearly all my Tell messages are OOC.. unless someone has contacted me in an IC way.. But if I am RPing.. once in awhile instead of using () I send a tell to that person instead. But of course that is just me. And I mostly RP in basic chat. Guild Chat is mostly just for BSing but it all depends on whos on and how many people are on. The fewer the people the more the conversation stays IC.
And from my point of view... RPing is the best way. No worries.. no wipe can take away what you are and what you possess. I have quit leveling, likely for good atleast until the next wipe then I will play around again. But I just RP with friends now in one place or another, or I am the acting Barkeep in Akkaio.
And yes.. the terms PL has definately become an insult. Which it really doesnt matter, but what can you prove through PLing? That you can power faster than someone else.. not really.. that you are more efficient, better equipt or anything else like that.. well not really. It just shows you have more time on your hands. But if you are strictly a PLer.. you really have no desired talents because everyone can do it.. and likely near the same level. But as for RPing, really it is wide open. No limitations on what you can do, and really it has nothing to do with that \"Im better than you because of this reason\"... People who RP do it because it is enjoyable, which if you strictly PL then you just do it to be better than everyone else... Now in Verrliits case it is a little more understandable.. because it is part of her character. Though I would not base my character on my physical attributes.. I guess it is fine either way.
And I know some people will agree and some people wont... but I agree with the wipes and have come to terms with them because I am moving more towards a RPer. In which I have never been a PLer... more of a finesse player if you will :). But I have never liked cheaters.. and since the fighting system has always been a bit bugged then it is cheating in one way or another. I avoid any monster that wont fight back because for me there is no challenge in it... and taking advantage of the system is wrong. Now if you are just testing things out, no matter... but if you are just doing it, hoarding monsters that dont fight back or are easily tricked then it is wrong in my opinion.
*** Wonders if anything he said just made sense
Well I am tired and I dont know.. maybe other tired people will be able to understand me :).
Now imagine a game that isn\'t meant for such people, will not cater to such people, and has a strong community who have no love, fondness, and very little tolerance for such people. This is PlaneShift :| No matter how many times this has been said, and sadly no matter how many times this came off as \"snobbish,\" \"closed-minded,\" or \"wrong,\" this still stands: if anyone doesn\'t like the way things work here, particularly the need for RP and not PL, they are free to leave, and will most likely be asked to.
A strong community? I would say things are looking up :D. I am feeling quite a bit more possitive about it lately. But yes, PS is my last Haven to try and hide from PLers. and if you are strictly an PLer... well I will stop there until my mind is more clear then it currently is :P.
Well, anyway, your view is very idealistic, Karyuu. This is a dream about every MMORPG-gamemaster/developer shares. But as I already said: I have never seen any game that managed to keep a strictly RP-oriented community while growing popular. In my eyes, this is a privilege reserved for small, hard-to-find and little-known games. Every MMORPG I have known has had a nice start with a few players who did RP very well, but was then, when it grew popular, flooded with PLs. I\'m afraid you\'ll just have to learn to live with them, because, unfortunately, I have not yet seen a way to effectively keep them out.
Well this is what I am against more than anything truly. I dont mean to sound fanatical.. and if you know me then you should understand where I am coming from. But if PS is going to be a true RP community... then we should make sure that it always stays as such. Never give in to those who do not understand what PS is. Even if the community remains smaller... so be it. If not this will become every other MMORPG.. that I would leave because we didnt stick to what exactly \"We\" (majority) wanted. Now, this is not WoW, FF XI and sure in the hell not EQ. I think an Idealistic RP realm is achievable in some ways. And I would devote myself if that is the intentions that each of us have for PS. And I am not saying there cannot be a mixture of RP and PL.. but I just think we need to stay true to what PS was and is. (Also if you dont agree, just take into consideration that I am still very tired.. if you agree then great because that is exactly how I feel :P.
-
I feel that this is indeed a very reasonable debate and we are getting some very good points from both sides of a long overdue topic, so I thank you all, and I am glad the powers that be have let us continue this, so to them I say Thank You.
I for one now see why both sides feel so strongly on their point of view, I now hope we all can try to help each other to Role Play, I try my best and I am willing to learn and feel with a little gentle help PLs can be helped to RP too.
If they are not willing to learn when they get maxed they get bored and move on, as for them there is no fun left or reason to stay; so we do not have to badger them they will leave on there own accord. :)
-
;)
-
Originally posted by grayFalcon
The way I see it is that /tell-RPing people can still be talked to, they will still give you a meaningfull anwser, and they even may engage in, short though it may be, RP with you, if you talk to them. So, what is the difference between a /tell-RPer and somebody who just goes about his business and has nothing to do with you? How is this wrong?
As I said, the difference is that without me starting to interact with them, there will be no chance to interact with them. However, there will be a lot less options for me to start interacting with them because I never get to notice their conversation, i.e., what they are concerning themselves with. Thusly, instead of possibly having the chance to comment on something, I would be reduced to the most generic things like \"Where is XYZ?\".
Example:
RPer to other RPer: And last time I saw him he was in a really bad mood, I wonder if something is going on.
Me: *happens to pass by and listens in*
Other RPer: Odd, I\'ve just met him yesterday and he sounded perfectly happy. *shrugs*
RPer: Hmm, RPer3 never seemed like the type for mood swings to me.
Me: Erm, wasn\'t RPer3 on a journey and returned just a few days ago? When I talked to him afterwards he did seem a bit different.
RPer: I see, so maybe something happened to him on that journey? Do you know where he went?
/Example
It is easy to see that with /tell \"RP\", this would have been like this:
/teller: (/tells other /teller same thing as above)
Me: *happens to pass by the silent person*
other /teller: (tells same thing as above)
/teller: (/tells other /teller same thing as above)
Me: *walks past without a word*
The best thing that I could do would be to instead of walking away from the silent people:
Me: Excuse me, but would you happen to know where RPer3 is?
This would be pure chance. Most likely it would be RPer4 or something else that the /tellers never heard about or don\'t care about so I\'d mostly earn a \"Sorry, no idea\".
Definitely there is no chance of me walking up to them:
Me: Erm, wasn\'t RPer3 on a journey and returned just a few days ago? When I talked to him afterwards he did seem a bit different.
I hope this example clarified the huge difference and how RP is lessened by abusing /tell.
Originally posted by grayFalcon
Anyway, you can\'t stop it. /tell is a tool that\'s readily available.
So what? Am I supposed to just accept it because of that? Surely not. And one can stop it: as you said, it\'s readily available. Now how about having a /tell quota of maybe 3 tells per 5 minutes? For people who have proven themselves as RPers, this could be extended to infinite /tells like it is now by default.
Originally posted by grayFalcon
And, if push came to shove, what would you say against \"Leamme alone, I\'m telepathic\"?
Then you would need to have a really detailed background including a good reason for that to be the case, and you would also have to deal with all the other implications of being telepathic. Not to mention that this sort of thing must be worked out extremely well so that it is woven into the settings, and considering how magic works in PS this is no trivial task. And because it borders on violation of the setting even if done well, trying it without extremely good reason and preparation and still failing is not acceptable.
Originally posted by grayFalcon
May I, however, ask how you intend to discourage PLers from coming into PS? I think that they have to be in a way tolerated because you just can\'t get rid of them.
I won\'t tolerate them. I will try to get them to RP and, failing that, ignore them and not deal with them when at all, because anything else could be viewed as condoning their behaviour.
I have a really cool idea on how to completely destroy PLing: Add buttons to arbitrarily set stats and skills, spawn items and force money to never go below selectable amount of tria to the char creation. This would still allow the RPers to progress to the point they deem appropriate for their char, while making the uselessness of PLing obvious. Maybe bypass all the char creation and just let them fill in their desired stats and possessions without further ado? A quick creation for PLs.
Edit:
Originally posted by Esserfin
with your words you was giving no possibilities to no one to learn how to play fair because there is no place for RP noobs in PS
Sure, as a newbie you will have to rely on luck to find a decent RPer (but that is being worked on) who also has the time to explain RP to you when you meet them and with whom you get along well.
The problem is with those not asking or those who seem to already know how to RP, just not doing it a lot or not seeming to be interested in it much. These will never get any teacher since it is assumed they don\'t want to have one.
I always ask people to designate OOC and explain the reasons for it. Their reaction then shows whether or not they are interested in becoming RPers, and if they are, I introduce the basic concepts of RP to them if there is time, otherwise I offer them to /tell me when they need assistance.
Just recently I found one who didn\'t even know the meaning of RP, not even from SP games (maybe that\'s why so many are deraged into PLs when they come here?), who is, at least up until now, looking very promising indeed.
-
Originally posted by Seytra
Example:
RPer to other RPer: And last time I saw him he was in a really bad mood, I wonder if something is going on.
Me: *happens to pass by and listens in*
Other RPer: Odd, I\'ve just met him yesterday and he sounded perfectly happy. *shrugs*
RPer: Hmm, RPer3 never seemed like the type for mood swings to me.
Me: Erm, wasn\'t RPer3 on a journey and returned just a few days ago? When I talked to him afterwards he did seem a bit different.
RPer: I see, so maybe something happened to him on that journey? Do you know where he went?
/Example
To my mind if someone is having a conversation in /tell, it is a private conversation. In RL if I was having a conversation with someone in the street and you came along and butted in, without even greeting us, I would think you were very rude indeed. I would never have the audacity to go up to people I didn\'t know and butt into their conversation even if something they said interested me.
Originally posted by Seytra
For people who have proven themselves as RPers, this could be extended to infinite /tells like it is now by default.
And how would one prove oneself as a roleplayer?
Originally posted by Seytra
Then you would need to have a really detailed background including a good reason for that to be the case, and you would also have to deal with all the other implications of being telepathic. Not to mention that this sort of thing must be worked out extremely well so that it is woven into the settings, and considering how magic works in PS this is no trivial task. And because it borders on violation of the setting even if done well, trying it without extremely good reason and preparation and still failing is not acceptable.
In RL if someone claimed they were telepathic, would you refute their claim because it is not normal? In a world where people have a natural tendency towards magic I find it quite believable that many would be telepathic.
Originally posted by Seytra
I won\'t tolerate them. I will try to get them to RP and, failing that, ignore them and not deal with them when at all, because anything else could be viewed as condoning their behaviour.
I don\'t believe that Planeshift is full of PLs, I think there are many who look like PLs because of the way the game is currently structured, and because people who are new to RP find the communications difficult at first, especially when they see OOC chat going on unchecked. If more people like you talked to them they could learn by example. I can\'t see that this game has any attraction for PLs and if they do join surely they must soon leave (especially if lots of people keep trying to talk to them when they are trying to PL :)).
Originally posted by Seytra
I have a really cool idea on how to completely destroy PLing: Add buttons to arbitrarily set stats and skills, spawn items and force money to never go below selectable amount of tria to the char creation. This would still allow the RPers to progress to the point they deem appropriate for their char, while making the uselessness of PLing obvious. Maybe bypass all the char creation and just let them fill in their desired stats and possessions without further ado? A quick creation for PLs.
PLs would just create a character with minimum stats and build it up to their hearts content. If anything that would encourage them even more. Better to have a hidden points system to automatically build your character while he/she engaged in various activities. No fun in that for a PL.
-
I would like to add my thoughts to the No`s on tells , if that was how you suggest\" 3 in 5 mins \"hello 1 gone: 2 how are you: two gone 3 good bye three gone:
So i see , something like this happening, 1 hello/how are you/well thank you/did you see what happened in the tavern last night/to do with Janner and Pipra Janner, as i crashed and need to no what happened so i can finish my report for the guild log. The reply hello/ how are you/ i am well thank you/ow sorry to hear that at what point did you crash.
this alone would kill five mins so if this was the case for a long period players would be oblivious to what is going on around them every time a player they knew joined game.
My second point yes if you knew the players ok to join in, but to a complete stranger i can see Pips point too. (if that happened to me in real life i would think nosey so \'n so) (being nice there).
Third point your suggestion to allow PL to set own limit is in my opinion not how they see it at all, to a true PL it is the challenge to get from worst to best that appeals to them. :)
-
Originally posted by Pip
To my mind if someone is having a conversation in /tell, it is a private conversation. In RL if I was having a conversation with someone in the street and you came along and butted in, without even greeting us, I would think you were very rude indeed. I would never have the audacity to go up to people I didn\'t know and butt into their conversation even if something they said interested me.
No, a private conversation cannot be held in /tells, because that would exclude eavesdropping or random overhearing. A private conversation should be done in a private place, and then you can, when someone RPing wants to join, OOC-ly clarify that it is meant to be not easily overheared. A RPer will know whether or not their own char would have overheared it or not.
Yes, the example situation lacks some formalities, like a greeting and such. However, that is besides the point. The point is that these formalities can easily be added and the situation would then become a possibility, whereas with /tells it would never be.
Furthermore, even if it would happen like that and you would find me rude, you would still talk to me to tell me to get lost, no? Also, asume that RPer3 is someone you care about, and you are likely to join the conversation.
Originally posted by Pip
Originally posted by Seytra
For people who have proven themselves as RPers, this could be extended to infinite /tells like it is now by default.
And how would one prove oneself as a roleplayer?
By good roleplaying, obviously. Other RPers will notice it. Maybe not within the first week, but eventually.
Yes, this includes the human factor, and with it favourism, feelings and other subjective things.
Originally posted by Pip
In RL if someone claimed they were telepathic, would you refute their claim because it is not normal? In a world where people have a natural tendency towards magic I find it quite believable that many would be telepathic.
Yes, I would do so immediately unless they can prove it. And the \"it\'s a world of magic\" argument is just another form of the \"It\'s fantasy, so anything goes!\" pseudo argument that completely fails to address the point:
Even though there is magic, it works in a certain way. This way is defined very well by the settings. And this means that telepathy requires a spell to be cast using one or likely many more glyphs. This requirement can of course be lessened by special circumstances like extreme specialisation or being highly advanced in the azure way. Still, this is something that is by far not common.
Originally posted by Pip
I don\'t believe that Planeshift is full of PLs, I think there are many who look like PLs because of the way the game is currently structured, and because people who are new to RP find the communications difficult at first, especially when they see OOC chat going on unchecked. If more people like you talked to them they could learn by example. I can\'t see that this game has any attraction for PLs and if they do join surely they must soon leave (especially if lots of people keep trying to talk to them when they are trying to PL :)).
Sadly, to PL you don\'t need to talk. In fact, the talk will be drowned out by the battle messages, nayway, so a PL will not need to care about RPers trying to talk to them. Also, there are PLs in PS, as they are wverywhere where things can be maxed.
Originally posted by Pip
PLs would just create a character with minimum stats and build it up to their hearts content. If anything that would encourage them even more.
That\'s not how I think a PL works, but I may have no idea. AFAICS, they want to brag about their stats and items, possibly using them in PvP to get the feeling they \"pwn\" someone. Now if anyone can just have the same stats as them, there is nothing to brag about. Sure, you can say \"Hey, I started with 1 in every stat and zero skills and maxed everything\", but AFAICS only very few would actually do that.
Originally posted by Pip
Better to have a hidden points system to automatically build your character while he/she engaged in various activities. No fun in that for a PL.
How would that not be fun for a PL? The purpose of the training system is to keep levelling at bay. With an automatic advancement, a PL won\'t even need to go to a trainer anymore, and instead just keep bashing MOB upon MOB. Also, hidden or not, stats always have effects, and these are noticable. If nowhere else, then in PvP, so they\'ll still find a way to measure their \"lvl\".
Though I, too, think that indeed the numbers should be made less prominent.
Edit:
Originally posted by r.guppy
I would like to add my thoughts to the No`s on tells , if that was how you suggest\" 3 in 5 mins \"hello 1 gone: 2 how are you: two gone 3 good bye three gone:
So i see , something like this happening, 1 hello/how are you/well thank you/did you see what happened in the tavern last night/to do with Janner and Pipra Janner, as i crashed and need to no what happened so i can finish my report for the guild log. The reply hello/ how are you/ i am well thank you/ow sorry to hear that at what point did you crash.
this alone would kill five mins so if this was the case for a long period players would be oblivious to what is going on around them every time a player they knew joined game.
I agree. There would be the possibility to meet and then use /say (though that would force more OOC in public channels = not good), and also the limit can be way less strict (like 20 /tells per 5 minutes, or even a limit based on length). But I would not be fond of such a system either.
Originally posted by r.guppy
Third point your suggestion to allow PL to set own limit is in my opinion not how they see it at all, to a true PL it is the challenge to get from worst to best that appeals to them. :)
Hmm, if that was the case, they would not be purchasing better weapons and instead aim to loot them themselves, no?
-
Just a small point again, I think the reason for buying more powerful swords is to 1: so they achieve their aim quicker; ergo bye bye to them quicker.
2: for some they do it for Symbol status
-
Seytra, I think we can drop the /tell-RPing-acceptable vs /tell-RPing-non-acceptable thing - from what I\'ve seen we\'re building on two approaches so different that we\'ve reached a dead end. While I compare the loss I have from people /tell-RPing to the loss I\'d have if they were not there at all, reaching the conclusion that I\'m taking no greater loss from them /tell-RPing and that they may go on then, you compare your loss from /tell-RP with the optimum case, which is /say-RP - and thus you reach the conclusion that you do have a loss in RP. Both conclusions are fully correct, the difference just being that I take the worst case and you take the best case as point of comparison. I\'m not one to judge which approach is better, so I guess we should just walk away with the other\'s arguments in mind and out own position kept.
There is, though, one thing that comes into mind: Why do we have /tell at all? The MMORPGs I remember most fondly are such without this feature, and I don\'t remember ever using it (except for ooc stuff in PS). Or is there anything I missed that would be hurt by taking away /tell? By the way, this might well hurt PLs, as it\'s probobaly more boring to bash NPCs while having noone to talk to than bashing NPCs and chatting with your friends.
As for your suggestion with setting your attributes/skills yourself - I dunno. Why don\'t we just go to IRC and do some pseudo-P&P-roleplay there? I mean, part of the fun in such an MMORPG is, imho, the fact that there are skills, that not everybody is equal, but that some have more skills and some less. And the fact that, if you don\'t do some work on your skills, you\'ll just stay weak. If you do work on your skills though, you can be proud of being the warrior who saves his comrades in need. Personally, I never had a highly-skilled char (though I was in most cases believed to be powerful), I preferred spending my time with RP. And I greatly enjoyed the fact that there were people with lots of hard-earned battle skills.
Now what you suggest would pretty much destroy all this. Most people would just set their skills to max and say \"Oh, well, but I don\'t use them, it\'s just in case...\". There\'s a reason why practically all RPGs have a ruleset that limits your skills and doesn\'t let you start with them maxed out, and that reason is... human nature.
I hope at least some of this made sense, as I\'m horribly tired.
-
Hm... A discussion on /tell removal took place sometime, I think. I was against it at the time, but leaning towards agreeing a little now.
Originally posted by Karyuu in another discussion:
We will always need the /tell command because we need easy ways of contacting individuals OOC, either to ask questions about RP, or to get help, or to give warnings. I don\'t think /tell will disappear, nor should it. It\'s incredibly useful for coordinating between characters: \"/tell someone I\'m at the city gates now, we left off our RP session here last night. Want to meet here once more, or should I \'stumble\' upon your character again somewhere else?\" Or \"/tell someone I\'m playing a character that has a tiny bit of limited telepathy. Can you give me a small trivial piece of information about your own character, so that mine may give it back to yours IC as roleplay \'proof\'?\" RP whispering to someone close to you is another problem. How would you go about doing this if the /tell command is removed?
Eh :/
-
Well, I do like having the ability to /tell someone. But if we were not going to have it... then take away the buddy list too because it would drive me nuts to know a friend is on and not be able to find them :P. It is as realistic as the Guild Chat and Group chat. I was just saying for me, I dont think it really has anything to do with RP.. just lets us communicate with the people we want to talk with over long distances. Which I do believe is very helpful and im not sure if I understand why we need to get rid of it. Though I can see why people want the /shout command and maybe even the /auction command gone :/.
-
I have to say that to remove tells completely would not go down well imagine in say two years time vastly more ares to cover, running around or tele-porting or flying all over the place to meet up. oops mist him/her/it were did they go, here we go again.
Sorry if a bit small in content not one for long explanations or quotes.
-
Well, r.guppy, keeping it short and meaningful is even more of a high art than writing pages over pages of text that could be condensated into a few lines anyway :)
I\'m not sure if /tells are really a bad thing - I have no experience whatsoever using them. I only know that I didn\'t miss them in other games. There is a certain flair in going around and shouting for somebody you know must be somewhere in the area, instead of just /telling him to come to the tavern, please. On the other hand it can get annoying at times.
Maybe a solution would be saying that, well, telepathy is simply common in this world. It doesn\'t even have to get mixed up with magic, it can be seen as a mental power that has nothing to do at all with magical power and is just something that most thinking creatures share. The drawback to this would be that, if /tell started to replace /say, finding suitable RP partners might become hard. But I am sure that this could also be taken care of (e.g. by making telepathy stop working at /say-able range).
As I already said, I have no problem whatsoever with /tell and /tell-RP existing, and I seem not to be alone with that opinion. On the other hand, neither is Seytra with her opposition of /tell-RP. So, perhaps it would be best to find some solution that would seem logical from an RP point of view and that would still encourage /say-RP (to satisfy the Seytra-like-thinking group) but that would also allow those who like /tell-RP and who generally don\'t want to give up the freedom of communicating around the world to continue using /tell as they are used to doing. Keeping the sheep healthy and the wolf satiated, so to say ;)
There has been a brief discussion on this (http://www.planeshift3d.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=11446&boardid=11&sid=6ad6917104e621e4e9a45284dc6a5919) in the wishlist forum, but it didn\'t go far.
If there\'s nothing to say against this, I\'d just condensate all the arguments for/against /tell into a short post and put it on the wishlist forum, too.
-
Telepathy doesn\'t mean that individuals have the ability to speak to each other over great distances alone, though. It implies the ability to read minds. Unless the \"telepathy\" concept is refined to such a degree that it no longer bears the implications it has as we know it, the idea is very messy. Also, I know several characters that like to avoid magic, or are \"immune\" to being able to possess it (mine included), so any magical attachment to /tells without another mana source (e.g., other object), would be \"bleh\" :P
Not only that, but any conversations still require concentration, any carrying on five conversations while fighting, again, is absolutely insane.
-
I think those are not matters that can\'t be resolved.
First, telepathy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telepathy) tends to get confused with magic, but it doesn\'t need to be. It doesn\'t imply the ability to read the opposite\'s mind, either (though the two are often confused with each other - the ability to read somebody else\'s feelings is called empathy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy)). Telepathy is seen as the ability to simply convey a message or a feeling over a great distance to somebody you are mentally close to. It can be seen as a property of the soul/mind, as different from magic as the ability to command your body to move.
Perhaps you could read up on ESP (Extra-sensory perception) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra-sensory_perception). It is a group of phenomena in our real world, including, but not limited to, forms of telepathy, that bear no resmeblence whatsoever to the kind of magic presented in PS or other RPGs. (Side note: if somebody is going to attack me for bringing up such \"nonsense\", be prepared that I won\'t claim that ESP does exist - I don\'t know if it does - but I can show that claiming that it definitely doesn\'t exist has no scientific grounds).
Concentration is a point, but what stops the devs from blocking /tells whithin, say, 15 seconds of the last hit taken/dealt?
(edit: inserted wiki-link to telepathy and added empathy)
-
Well, I, too, use /tell quite often for various purposes, so a complete removal would not be good I think.
grayFalcon, I know perfectly well why there are those rules in all PnP RPGs. But this would make it easy to distinguish between PLs and RPers: those who for some reason stick with maxed stats would obviously not make good RPers, and I still think it would discourage those PLs whose aim is to break the system.
Anyway, telepathy is incorporated into PS as part of the azure way. Therefore, if there was another way of doing that, it would have to be stated in the settings to exist, because it is a big modification to the world. Also I know of no PnP RPG that has telepathy without magic or a separate but well defined system for PSI of which ESP is a subset.
I am completely aware of the differences between telepathy and empathy, and there even is an empathy skill, which is possible since you don\'t need ESP for empathy.
I even think that /tell should be allowed during waiting for the transision to the DR, as it is OOC anyway. A decent RPer will not use it in this case even if they could when alive.
I see no way of justifying /tell \"RP\" given the current setting. So either there will be a major change to the settings, or /tell \"RP\" remains unacceptable. I also see no way of having /tell \"RP\" while still encouraging /say RP.
Also, people who ignore the features that actually are ingame and work, like distance and physical location, obviously ignore one of the most important apects of the system. And I think I may very well assume pure laziness and unwillingness to accept the rules (and it sould really be common sense that people who aren\'t close can\'t communicate unless they have very special ways to do so. I seriously wonder why in MMO\"RP\"Gs these things get ignored and outright disregarded).
In summary: anyone who uses /tell to \"RP\" is not an RPer, as it violates the settings, and the settings must be adhered to. /tell \"RP\" is just as bad as pretending there are vampires or dragons or spaceships in PS. :tdown: several times
Edit:
Originally posted by Karyuu
Not only that, but any conversations still require concentration, any carrying on five conversations while fighting, again, is absolutely insane.
Absolutely. Even more so if you also need to concentrate on maintaining these nonexistant telepathic links. Try to have five seperate conversations over telephone IRL, even without fighting (which realistically would take all concentration or you\'ll die pretty fast), some time to test it\'s viability.
This whole \"telepathy\" business is just like maxing skills or having invincible \"chars\" in ruleless RPGs. :tdown: another time
-
for an RP /tell form, some kind of postal system might be implemented. that way, it could be written as a letter and it wouldn\'t be an \"instant thing\" (perhaps the notification of a new message might be, but the going to the post office to retrieve it wouldn\'t)
and /tell will remain as a way to annoy your friends with useless and random facts about mahogany wood and why ducks quack
-
Sorry for the late reply but i was playing ;)
Originally posted by Karyuu PL speaks with you and explains how to kill monsters and raise stats and nothing else - this is not what PlaneShift is for, again. Powerlevelers may be found here, but the game was not intended for them, will not concentrate on them, and will try hard to make any powerleveling not worth the effort, again. For example, it has been discussed that quests may give a lot more in the future than any mindless monster slaughter, and monster slaughter would give so little as to be nearly insignificant. PlaneShift is a roleplaying game, no matter what. If you\'re looking for something with more \"kill,\" this isn\'t the game for you...
Well, i have understand that....but how about being a little more constructive? :)
Want my opinion on how you can destroy PL? Make things easier not harder ;)
There are some PLers that are trying to became RP...but most of them after a good character levelling. Give them (us maybe) a chance.
The game *now* seems build and calibrate for fighters/hunters/warriors...are they RP? Or we have to consider most of them (us) PLers?
This is something i\'d like to undestand (i\'m serious)
Originally posted by Karyuu Wipes are a necessary step in development, and as Seytra stated in a previous post, this game isn\'t commercial and thus the development team is under no pressure at all to attract the largest playerbase - but the most fitting one.
I\'m not really sure.
As i said the game (pre-alpha i know) now make things easier for PL and really hard for RP. Or, better, if we want to RP with something else than imagination.
And this attract people who want to fight :)
Let me know that i\'m really proud (proud as part of the humanity) of what PS team is doing, i started to play here because of the non-commercial open nature of the project (and not because is free like a beer) :)
Originally posted by Karyuu People are teaching all the time. There is a guide in Hydlaa Plaza on roleplay, for example, and if you come up to some people in-game and say that you are a beginner in this whole RP business, I have no doubts whatsoever that there will be plenty of people to help you out. But if all you are doing is running around killing things that spawn every other minute, you\'re not going to find any teachers, right? You have to look a little, extend a bit more effort :)
I have done both in PS..i killed and i passed my time in the plaza (or in the tavern too). Not too much after the last wipe ( ;) ) but be sure i\'ve done it.
I\'ll try again because things changes (fortunately) and maybe this time i\'ll find the characters you are speaking about.
Originally posted by Karyuu Again, sad but unfixable. PlaneShift is an English roleplaying game.
Again, i understand that ;)
Originally posted by Karyuu [/IYou definitely misunderstood. In the first post of mine that you addressed, I was simply saying that there is no place for powerleveling without any roleplay in PlaneShift. I never made any insinuation that there is no possibility to learn.
Nice to hear this :)
P.S. Seems to me that you are taking this discussion as a battle.... be sure that i just want to clarify things that i don\'t understand. We both win at the end. ;)
-
In some ways it is a battle, in others it isn\'t. I\'m dropping the discussion now because it\'s just eaten too much out of me, and others are capable of carrying on just as well, for as long as this thread is allowed to continue.
-
Now theirs a thought mail could be a good work around in place of tells and no need to inform you of new mail as you only have to go to post office to receive mail, i like that idea. :)
-
Hmm, the mail idea has been brought up in the wishlist forum in another context, and it by itself is something I am in favor of.
However, the only real benefit of /tell is the ability to co-ordinate things OOC-ly so that RP can run smoother, like arranging to \"happen to\" stumble accross oeach other (compensating for having to log off etc.) or clarifying things that may be unclear but relevant for the own char\'s reaction without spoiling it by an OOC say. It may be that a player requires additional information about another player\'s char to ensure that the own RP isn\'t flawed, etc.. For these the postage system wouldn\'t work nearly as well or at all.
@ Esserfin:
The degree to which the killing is RP or OOC is quite a touchy subject. I have come to the conclusion that for a great many chars, the amount of killing they do is much more than would be realistic for RP. And even if the amount os fitting, the targets almost never are. Let\'s face it: everyone camps the MOB that they can kill without having to make long regeneration breaks or take potions while still gaining the most PP and if possible good loot.
Like the very popular rogue in the forest or some of the mercs / gladiators in the arena while realistically they would be hunting animals, but since these animals are either not available or the closest thing (rats) doesn\'t provide the desired loot and PP gains, hunters instead \"hunt\" for mercenaries in the arena.
Therefore AFAICS ~80% of all killing done ingame is OOC. As I said, since the wipe my actual skill levels are far off what I RP (And I RP by far not maxed skills or stats!), so when there is no RP going on etc. I spend a bit of time camping as well (usually I get fed up with it pretty quickly), in order to get my stats to match up with my RP. IMO, both must align if possible, since stats are supplemental to RP so that no super chars get RP\'d. Still RP takes precedence. Therefore, I consider almost 100% of the killing I do to be completely OOC. IOW, from an IC POV, I am not even in the arena or at whatever spawn point unless in very rare circumstances. Once an RP opportunity announces itself (usually via /tell), I stop the camping and go to RP.
-
Originally posted by Karyuu
In some ways it is a battle, in others it isn\'t. I\'m dropping the discussion now because it\'s just eaten too much out of me, and others are capable of carrying on just as well, for as long as this thread is allowed to continue.
As you want :(
-
Is a pleasure to meet you here Lady Seytra :)
Originally posted by Seytra
@ Esserfin:
The degree to which the killing is RP or OOC is quite a touchy subject. I have come to the conclusion that for a great many chars, the amount of killing they do is much more than would be realistic for RP. And even if the amount os fitting, the targets almost never are. Let\'s face it: everyone camps the MOB that they can kill without having to make long regeneration breaks or take potions while still gaining the most PP and if possible good loot.
Uhmm...yes you are right. I\'m sure that normally no one can kill hundreds of enemies and to be able to move yet ;)
But i remember when the stamina system has been introduced:
at the beginning the loss of stamina due to character activity was very fast. Players didn\'t like it and devs changed it.
Originally posted by Seytra Like the very popular rogue in the forest or some of the mercs / gladiators in the arena while realistically they would be hunting animals, but since these animals are either not available or the closest thing (rats) doesn\'t provide the desired loot and PP gains, hunters instead \"hunt\" for mercenaries in the arena.
I know some characters that goes to hunt in the wild often (tefusangs, trepors or consumers valley) and are characters with high stats and skills now :)
Originally posted by Seytra [/ITherefore AFAICS ~80% of all killing done ingame is OOC. As I said, since the wipe my actual skill levels are far off what I RP (And I RP by far not maxed skills or stats!), so when there is no RP going on etc. I spend a bit of time camping as well (usually I get fed up with it pretty quickly), in order to get my stats to match up with my RP. IMO, both must align if possible, since stats are supplemental to RP so that no super chars get RP\'d. Still RP takes precedence. Therefore, I consider almost 100% of the killing I do to be completely OOC. IOW, from an IC POV, I am not even in the arena or at whatever spawn point unless in very rare circumstances. Once an RP opportunity announces itself (usually via /tell), I stop the camping and go to RP.
I can undestand your point of view but that is because of the role you chosed to play.
As you can imagine no one can be a *real* mighty warrior before to have high stats and combat skills (and let me say that i\'m not a maxed character).
As you know sometimes someone lead an ulber in Hydlaa (and is something i really dislike)...well some time ago i was heading back from Ojaveda (or maybe from some hunting in the wild) and i\'ve met an ulbernaut into the city. There were a few corpses on the ground because some citizens were already got killed by that guardian moved from his natural place (and so really enraged).
I\'ve wielded my weapons and after a long battle and some potions of healing i killed him. The streets were safe again and people around said \'thanks\' to me.
Can you undestand my point of view?
-
Originally posted by Seytra
Hmm, the mail idea has been brought up in the wishlist forum in another context, and it by itself is something I am in favor of.
Agreed. An in-game way to leave messages for players that are not on, or too busy to talk, is a basic function that is needed.
Seytra
However, the only real benefit of /tell is the ability to co-ordinate things OOC-ly so that RP can run smoother, like arranging to \"happen to\" stumble accross oeach other (compensating for having to log off etc.) or clarifying things that may be unclear but relevant for the own char\'s reaction without spoiling it by an OOC say. It may be that a player requires additional information about another player\'s char to ensure that the own RP isn\'t flawed, etc..
Disagree strongly. The bandwidth limit of chat is about 20 WPM, and in the case of bad lag, a three word sentence can take over a minute to be seen, and recovery from that glitch in the conversation may take five minutes more. It takes further time for a character to move to the same location as another.
Now that those with fur spawn on the other side of the world, they begin to grow apart from other races. Only those who stay in one place, or who have very few friends, can manage to have relationships with non-guldmembers that do not have tails, without using Tell for RP.
The plaza now stands empty more often, a good chunk of the action has moved away. For urgent meetings to which a furred one is a party, and for Enki that have lovers and friends without tails, the DR is now the busiest meeting place.
Seytra
@ Esserfin:
The degree to which the killing is RP or OOC is quite a touchy subject. I have come to the conclusion that for a great many chars, the amount of killing they do is much more than would be realistic for RP. And even if the amount os fitting, the targets almost never are. Let\'s face it: everyone camps the MOB that they can kill without having to make long regeneration breaks or take potions while still gaining the most PP and if possible good loot.
Like the very popular rogue in the forest or some of the mercs / gladiators in the arena while realistically they would be hunting animals, but since these animals are either not available or the closest thing (rats) doesn\'t provide the desired loot and PP gains, hunters instead \"hunt\" for mercenaries in the arena.
True.
Players compete. They will do their best to use all available resources to maximum effect.
Seytra
Therefore AFAICS ~80% of all killing done ingame is OOC. As I said, since the wipe my actual skill levels are far off what I RP (And I RP by far not maxed skills or stats!), so when there is no RP going on etc. I spend a bit of time camping as well (usually I get fed up with it pretty quickly), in order to get my stats to match up with my RP. IMO, both must align if possible, since stats are supplemental to RP so that no super chars get RP\'d. Still RP takes precedence. Therefore, I consider almost 100% of the killing I do to be completely OOC. IOW, from an IC POV, I am not even in the arena or at whatever spawn point unless in very rare circumstances. Once an RP opportunity announces itself (usually via /tell), I stop the camping and go to RP.
I agree with you that stats and skills need to match with RP. I disagree that there should not be superstars.
This is my first online game, and first character. I have only been in-game since June 15, 2005.
My RP is extreme. I have generated ten meg of chat log files so far. Almost all of it is of things I was a party to. I avoid the chaos and noise of the Plaza.
I have achieved a small measure of fame, without shouting, \"Everybody look at me!\" or leading a Guild, as others do.
I am competitive. I set out to level, using every possible advantage and strategy.
It was not for the joy of mindless bashing that I did so, nor am I a duellist.
It was to gain a respect for effort, that would make a total stranger who had never heard of me, ask to to hear what I might say, and then perhaps, want to become part of my story.
I show what is possible, and others seek me out. It has been for advice on whether to propose marriage, how to combat a rival, how to reach a goal or understanding, and to deal with hurt or anger. Others simply want to share their joy, their art, and play with me.
Yes, I am the thing you do not want, a super character. But I am complete, with loves and fears, virtues, flaws and weaknesses.
And I will create art, and be respected, regardless of whether I am loved, or hated.
The thing you call PLing was simply to get your attention.
The Dark Lady
Invited, though I\'ve had my fill.
My name remains unguilded still.
Instead I watch the stories flow,
in ways that others cannot know.
I reach, I grasp the unseen choice,
and hone the power of my voice.
To touch the paths that lives may take,
and leave Dark Wisdom in my wake.
I am,
The Dark Lady
Verrliit
-
Originally posted by Esserfin
Is a pleasure to meet you here Lady Seytra :)
Sadly, like several other players, we don\'t seem to meet ingame anymore due to RL constraints. :(
Originally posted by Esserfin
Uhmm...yes you are right. I\'m sure that normally no one can kill hundreds of enemies and to be able to move yet :)
But i remember when the stamina system has been introduced:
at the beginning the loss of stamina due to character activity was very fast. Players didn\'t like it and devs changed it.
I know that. However, this can be justified in a way. Granted, it is on the strong side of things, but realistically, in medieval times, people would be a lot of better trained for walking and running than they are today. Also, when you carry loads, the stamina drain is quite big, so this fits in well with the remaining system that also is ont he strong side of things, like HP regeneration (instead of loss and dying), etc.. These things are hard to RP, and realistic RP therefore is necessarily far off from the game mechanics in this case as well. This is why in RP, a broken leg takes, even aided with magic, several RP days to heal, while in terms of game mechanics, a char can regenerate by itself from 1HP to max within less than a single game day. This is necessary to allow for the fast paced gameplay expected (and required) in PC games, due to the limited amount of time one is able to spend playing them. Overall the stamina regeneration is less unrealistic as the HP regneneration.
I think RP should follow the more realistic approach.
Originally posted by Verrliit
Disagree strongly. The bandwidth limit of chat is about 20 WPM, and in the case of bad lag, a three word sentence can take over a minute to be seen, and recovery from that glitch in the conversation may take five minutes more. It takes further time for a character to move to the same location as another.
I don\'t see your point. The same \"bandwidth limit\" applies to /tell as does to /say. Yes, in /tell sentences tend to be longer, because the opposite end will just have to wait for you. This could be regarded as impolite behaviour, but whatever.
Also, /tell messages get delayed and mixed up just as badly due to the lag as any othe rmessage, so there is no difference as well.
The delay is independant of the text length, except if the text is longer than about 1000 characters (since then it would have to be split into separate packets that might in the worst case end up having a three minute delay each), which is highly unlikely.
Originally posted by Verrliit
Now that those with fur spawn on the other side of the world, they begin to grow apart from other races. Only those who stay in one place, or who have very few friends, can manage to have relationships with non-guldmembers that do not have tails, without using Tell for RP.
Yes, this happens, but you said you were abusing /tell to \"RP\" all the time. Regardless, I travel between Ojavedan and Hydlaa a lot, and it does take only a few minuts RL time. And no, I never abuse death to get back to Hydlaa faster. The simple solution to the problem is to merely not get killed. Getting killed all the time is so unrealistic it hurts.
Originally posted by Verrliit
The plaza now stands empty more often, a good chunk of the action has moved away. For urgent meetings to which a furred one is a party, and for Enki that have lovers and friends without tails, the DR is now the busiest meeting place.
Yes, the DR is becoming increasingly abused for duelling. And I am even more severely disappointed to hear that you abuse it for \"RP\" as well. This is abuse of death teleporting and disregarding of the settings. :tdown:
Originally posted by Verrliit
Seytra
True.
Players compete. They will do their best to use all available resources to maximum effect.
Which is why it must be ensured that the maximum possible effect is the one intended as default. And this is not the case. By the sound of it, you even condone abuse of game mechanics to leve faster. This is not tolerable.
Furthermore, there is no realism in that:
Originally posted by Esserfin
I know some characters that goes to hunt in the wild often (tefusangs, trepors or consumers valley) and are characters with high stats and skills now :)
Yes, they do. However, hunting for Trepors and consumers is, from an IC POV, not someting worthwhile. Yes, they drop loot. However, the prices for that loot don\'t correspond to the ectual value of the loot at all. They are set to that to cater to the players constantly wanting to loot things off all MOBs. A Trepor feeler should sell for almost nothing, like a consumer leg.
Fact is they\'re killing not for realism, but for completely OOC reasons, and this is not justifiable, and most definitely nothing worth being respected in any way. This is an RP game, not another mindless slaughtering game.
Originally posted by Verrliit
I agree with you that stats and skills need to match with RP. I disagree that there should not be superstars.
Please clarify what you refer to as \"superstars\". The way I see it, you mean godlike chars. The way I see your char, it is full of insanely high and completely overpowered skills, both implemented ones (like fighting) and made up ones (like \"seer\"). I am not sure to which degree this interpretation matches the fact, but it smells like something that is called \"Power Play\" (not to be confused with PL) in P&P RPGs, in which the PCs are godlike in comparison with each problem and opponent they face. This is not acceptable in RP.
Originally posted by Verrliit
This is my first online game, and first character. I have only been in-game since June 15, 2005.
My RP is extreme. I have generated ten meg of chat log files so far. Almost all of it is of things I was a party to. I avoid the chaos and noise of the Plaza.
Obviously I cannot verify the amount of actual RP contained in that, but I\'ll give you that this is quite an amount. But know that my chat logs are of similar size, though my ingame presence dates back some months before yours. Without implying anything about you, I prefer quality over quantity, and as such have not only shunned the plaza, but also all \"RP\" things that weren\'t real RP, like \"funny\" \"RP\" or hardly IC things.
As you see, figures tell almost nothing. In fact, they leave out almost all of the really important factirs, so why do you still insist on bringing them into the discussion?
Originally posted by Verrliit
I have achieved a small measure of fame, without shouting, \"Everybody look at me!\" or leading a Guild, as others do.
I am competitive. I set out to level, using every possible advantage and strategy.
This sounds very much like the too familiar try to phrase \"exploiting of game mechanics\" in an way that may make it look acceptable to the causal reader. This IMNSHO detracts almost all respect from you.
Also know that the people I respect and enjoy RPing with are by far not the ones who shout a lot or at all, and while there is the odd guild leader, they are by far not the majority.
Originally posted by Verrliit
It was not for the joy of mindless bashing that I did so, nor am I a duellist.
It was to gain a respect for effort, that would make a total stranger who had never heard of me, ask to to hear what I might say, and then perhaps, want to become part of my story.
If your effort is tainted by cheating, then all respect gained is unjustified. Even if your grinding efforts were not abusive, this sort of respect and fame is something given only due to the misconception of the other players that this is a MULARP, not an (MMO)RPG.
Originally posted by Verrliit
I show what is possible, and others seek me out. It has been for advice on whether to propose marriage, how to combat a rival, how to reach a goal or understanding, and to deal with hurt or anger. Others simply want to share their joy, their art, and play with me.
Yes, I am the thing you do not want, a super character. But I am complete, with loves and fears, virtues, flaws and weaknesses.
And I will create art, and be respected, regardless of whether I am loved, or hated.
The thing you call PLing was simply to get your attention.
Somehow I have the impression you have quite a high image of yourself that in more than one part seems quite unjustified to me. And a whole lot of superstition on top of that. :tdown:
Originally posted by Verrliit
The Dark Lady
Invited, though I\'ve had my fill.
My name remains unguilded still.
Instead I watch the stories flow,
in ways that others cannot know.
I reach, I grasp the unseen choice,
and hone the power of my voice.
To touch the paths that lives may take,
and leave Dark Wisdom in my wake.
I am,
The Dark Lady
Verrliit
This is not an RP forum, therefore this sort of thing is not supposed to clutter things up here. Also, everyone knows from your forum name who you are, there is no need to put it beneath every post. Put it in your sig if you must.
-
Ok.. I was about to post about an hour or so ago.. so I am going to continuely update this one so I dont lose everything once again :). But on with what I was saying :
To all who take advantage of PS bugs to power level:
I agree with nearly everything Seytra states. If you consistenly take advantage of bugs to level then you are a cheater for one... but to all who do, and I have no idea who is all doing this nor will I point fingers, you will receive none of the respect you think you deserve. Truly it is worse than just being a PLer... is you are a PLer who cheats.... hence why we need wipes until the battle system is completely fixed... though I could never figure out why some monsters would never fight back. I did notice that sometimes the NPC would stop if you moved in and out of their range and then you can kill it freely.
Classifications:
I believe there are three classes of players not counting hybrids of more than one of the three classes:
Roleplayer (RP) - This should be an understood term of course.
Power Levelers (PL) - Also should be understood but I will give a few thought of my own: (PS PLer) Someone who didnt bother to read the story/ history, races and didnt join the forums until the server was down (I didnt join the forums right away either :P)... People more into physically developing their character then anything else and may not even know what RP is.
Finesse Player (FP) - For those of you unaware... there is a third classification :).. or atleast I will say there is :P. The Finesse players are a bit different. I dont know of as many in online gaming... most that I know are primarily involved with console games. But they play to disprove rules in a way. Its about staying at a lower level and still accomplishing whatever... conserving time and being efficient to the utmost degree or atleast attempt to continuely get better and learn tactics for every situation. Its about the challenge.
I hope that explains it a bit. I have always been a Finesse player... In my eyes it is the opposite of what a PLer is... though still not any better because that doesnt mean they are or do RP. When I came here, I didnt have a character story and mostly (sorry guys :P) I had just made fun of the RL RPers... the dorky RP battles they have with air swords (you know the type I am talking about :P).. so really I had no idea what real RP was... Now what does any of this matter.. im getting there.
But then you have class relations... Rpers despise PLers because many do not RP, Finesse players despise PLers because because they only PL and have no real talents (sorry for the attack just going off my friends who are PLers :) ), and PLers just want to have fun and not have people complain about them PLing.
So what can be done to keep everyone happy in PS? Well FPers and PLers will have to move more towards the RP section. Over time here you will figure out what PS is or atleast get a general idea, in which the heart is pure RP it seems. Really if you wont change then you wont have a place here. Its a simple compromise, I believe we all want PS to be successful...
But getting to a few other questions at hand:
I dont believe there can be RP justification for having the /tell message. It is very useful and helps alot but telepathy??? I believe some game mechanics just need to be there and we dont neccessarily have to be for RP simply because some things like the /tell message have no replacement and I cant see teh function as RP. Now I do believe a mailbox is a great idea. Which I do hope that system will later be implemented.. because as of now we have no way to talk to someone out of game unless it is pure OOC like on the forums or in an IRC.
Bah everything sounded better the first time I wrote it.. stupid brown out :P
-
Im not sure if you consider this on topic or not considering the whole discussion is off-topic from the original post, but here goes...
let me first say, that Ive only been playing for two weeks now(12 days to be exact), I only started posting in the forums a few days ago, and i\'ve only just joined this debate as of a a while ago when i stumbled accross this thread. In short, consider me a \"noob\" if you will.
If I had to clasify myself i\'d say im what everyone calls a PL\'er. Actually, take the fact that i\'ve nearly maxed out my stats in a mere 12 days, and you could even might say I am an extreme PL\'er. Believe it or not I enjoy this aspect of the game.
This a chalenge to me, a quest even. Similarly IRL there are body builders who spend most of thier time training thier bodys and taking them to extremes, so maybe PL\'ing isnt so entirely OOC as you may think. A gladiator would spend most of his life in an arena, fighting to make a living. This is also a viable IC choice of lifestyle. Not all RP\'ers have to be adverturers, explorers, merchants, farmers, legendary wariors, barkeeps, etc.
I have friends in-game, I socialize, and I have explored a almost every part of the world that Im aware of. As a child my character played war games, and was apprentice to his father, a blacksmith. So it\'s also not hard to believe that my character would be fascinted or preoccupied by fine weaponry and a good fight. I also plan to make my character a skilled weapon smithy like his father was, but for now that is not possible in-game AFAIK.
what im trying to get at is that maybe people should be less critical of how people choose to enjoy the game. Not all PEOPLE are very social, or team players, or what have you, and not all CHARACTERS will be either. Some will like a chalenge, some will play it safe, others may not even fight at all, and spend thier time within the city limits. Believe it or not, some people even try to cheat thier way through life, and thats thier perogative of course(at least until they get caught)
I say let the PL\'ers powerlevel if they choose. there are ways to PL in-character. and there are also ways to make OOC powerleveling less appealing. For starters, i think changing the stats system (http://www.planeshift3d.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=19357&boardid=11&styleid=3&sid=2a00e885eb7497e396b1de6883ebb803)(read the whole post) would have the most immediate effect. Other ways, which i\'m sure are already in the works are:
giving more quests and making them more appealing (rewards like experience, unique items, good weapons)
making a wide variety of quests such as: fighting, adventure, strictly story, Magic, Farming, character development, etc
quests that take more time to complete, maybe even month long quests that no single character can complete alone? (forced interaction/cooperation)
quests that are required at certain points in order to continue progressing in certain skills?
more things to do in general (farm, craft, smith, etc)
populating the wild with more monsters (most of it is completely empty)
balancing monsters (no weak 5 pp rogues and the like)
having more diversity in monsters
make the monsters spawn in semi-random places, and allow them to wander rather than stand in place (This should probably be top priority, considering that 90% of players know exactly where to find almost every monster in the game)
Once those things, and many others, have been implemented you will see a lot less of people just killing things, but lets face it, for now there\'s not much more to do... honestly.
well, thats my point of view anyway.
-
/me gets the fire ready...
Actually, from reading your post, I don\'t think you are doing anything terribly wrong. There is no problem with spending every waking minute in the Arena fighting, as long as your character has a reason for doing it. Maybe it\'s a cultural thing, maybe you have made a promise to the gods, maybe you are just trying to impress that cute Fenki that you always see on your way to Harnquist\'s shop. As long as the character, and not the player has a motivation, then it\'s not a problem.
If you work in some actual RP, then that\'s even better. You mentioned that you have explored the land thoroughly; hopefully you found time to do some Role Playing while you were traveling the land. Try to stop by the Tavern from time to time, have a pint or two, and RP with the people there for a while. Then mention (IC) that you need to head back to the Arena to continue your training. Then you can be off, safe in the knowledge that you are a \"Role Player\", and not a dreaded \"Power Leveler\".
-
The one thing that really puzzles me is this is a RP game yes ?
Then why is it that most implemented skills are designed for PL ?
All the skills that would in-hanse the RP are not implemented ?
Sorry but thought this should be said as this is the main reason i fell is hindering RP and encouraging PL ?(
-
With regards to my posts and replies made to them, a recapitulation-
I reported on the state of PS, defined what is already in place, how it was being used, and some opinions as to why.
I was called a PLer who did not RP, and was told I did not know what I was talking about.
I showed that I knew what I was talking about, and that I RP more than many.
I was told that I did not RP \"properly\", and that it was not OK to use /tell to cram maximum RP into a limited time.
I said that I would be respected, whether I was liked or not.
I was called a cheater, accused of \"abusing\" features of the game that I had only reported on, and to Ten megs of chat log in four months, the reply was that quality is better than quantity. Further, although I have played and RP\'d a year\'s worth of hours and chat, in only four months, I was told that \"I think too highly of myself, without justification\".
I posted a tiny snippet of art.
I was told that there is no place for RP in a forum of a place whose reason for existence is RP.
Summary-
I posted my observations, thoughts and opinions on the current state of things in PS, how it is being used and why.
Responders tried to discredit me, and detract from me. I did not reply to insults, in kind.
Addendum-
To my detractors,
I have read endless discussion of what should and should not be, in PS. These are design goals.
I see things differently than some do. I pointed to how players use what has already been built and why they do it that way. I did not speak of what should be, but what already is.
The players of PS play ingeniously with what little they are given as props. Together we dream out loud, and the stories we live, interact and change each other, and sometimes even deserve to be called Art.
I am here to play; to laugh, to cry, to meet new friends and love them, to play at enemies and allies, power and politics, community and family and fantasy.
I am here to live and tell, a story named Verrliit.
One day I will think of an ending, and after that, perhaps I will begin another tale.
Until then...
(In deference to Seytra, I have omitted the RP that Seytra says is not supposed to be used here, and leave the pounce-kissing of Seytra, and other such inappropriate poking of fun at Seytra, including playfulness, silly imagery, and perhaps even a Knock Knock Joke or a rubber chicken, to the imagination of the reader, who is invited to PM me with things for later use, as long as they are not mean spirited, or personally insulting.)
I continue to be,
The Dark Lady
Verrliit
-
What IMO may stay on that page is
1) the list of who is online and
2) the list of AP
Nooo... Please tell me you will remove that too, it has been turning advising into a competition and sometimes you can see answers like \"You shouild ask a GM about that\".
Personaly i think that advising should be doing for helping people not for the \"Character stats\" webpage.
Edit: About PL... Please don\'t use that word because frankly i\'ve seen no ocurences for situations that might be described by that word in PS. Levelling is different than powerlevelling. Powerlevelling means that a stronger person helps a weaker one improve his levell or stats by killing monsters that would be impossible for the second mentioned to kill. That would imply group sharing for experience (progression points or weappon stats) and that is impossible in PS.
Edit2: I noticed over time that people tend to blame others so easily that they are not RPing and they are PL.
Try giving each oters the benefit of dout at least, and start by asuming the other is a RPer instead of asuming he or she is a PLer. Saying \"I\'m a good RPer and if i don\'t know you then you are cetainly a PLer\" is not right. Same goes for \"You have max stats, you are a PLer\". Levelling your character is part of \"life\" in Yliakum (or PS, call it whatever you like). Also, some characters need to be strong as part of they\'re RP. I have a story to live but my char gets wiped every month, how does that help?
Of course, i could stand in front of an ulbernaut and type \"/me kills the Ulbernaut giving him a fatal blow with his mighty sword\" and then, perhaps, the ulber would kill me in fact and it will all look so unrealistic. Would that be RP? Or would that be good RP? I guess not. In my opinion RP isnt based on how high are your stats, how many friends you have ingame, how well known you are or how many ales you drank at the tavern, it is a sum of all the above. Want to levell your char without even looking at other people passing by? No problem but i think you should be better off playing a RPG. Want create to live a story? Want to make some friends and live they\'re story too? Want to know fantasy? Want to fall in love? (and this doesn\'t necesarily mean with another person) Then welcome to Planeshift!
PS: I am here to live and tell, a story named Verrliit. One day I will think of an ending, and after that, perhaps I will begin another tale.
I hope your storry will be as long as possible and that ending and begining of another tale is far far away, milady.
-
(Quote)
Edit: About PL... Please don\'t use that word because frankly i\'ve seen no ocurences for situations that might be described by that word in PS. Levelling is different than powerlevelling. Powerlevelling means that a stronger person helps a weaker one improve his levell or stats by killing monsters that would be impossible for the second mentioned to kill. That would imply group sharing for experience (progression points or weappon stats) and that is impossible in PS. (end quote)
Am i reading this right its impossible?
An aspiring magi and I got chatting and he needed PP to attain his goal but was greatly hindered by the fact that he could only carry 5 in weight and was not even strong enough to kill rats, so I took pity on him and led him to the arena. (to the point) (we are not grouped)
I used what i call my training method, I attack monsters, stop after a few hits, monster is nearly dead, then the magi to be, attacks monster, as soon as he is allowed to. The monster still sees me as the bigger threat to him so keeps attacking me, the magi kills monster (which took a long time) gets PP and loot, (when he was full I picked up loot as it was dropped).
This went on till he had 500 PP, I then gave him 50 circles and said go train, he asked \"is it ok if I do not train strength (I had advised him to) as I only want to do magic as that is the role i want to play.\" (i said it was a gift to him and he was free to do with it as he saw fit.
So as you see you can help players gain PP and loot if you are willing to help them become what they want to be.
In RL a hunter would be away on the trail for days, weeks, even months on end with no contact with any other people. This role would suit players who have diffuculty communicating, so, to see what some people call PLs in this light, will serve to assist them in tolerating PLs.
-
Originally posted by Verrliit
I reported on the state of PS, defined what is already in place, how it was being used, and some opinions as to why.
I was called a PLer who did not RP, and was told I did not know what I was talking about.
Thereby implying that you do it and condone the reasons you listed.
Originally posted by Verrliit
I showed that I knew what I was talking about, and that I RP more than many.
I was told that I did not RP \"properly\", and that it was not OK to use /tell to cram maximum RP into a limited time.
Originally posted by Verrliit
I said that I would be respected, whether I was liked or not.
I was called a cheater, accused of \"abusing\" features of the game that I had only reported on,
You also made it sound like use of \"any tactic available\" is acceptable while in fact it isn\'t, and implied that you not only condone this, but do it yourself. In no way did you mention that you only commented on things, not doing ot justifying them.
Originally posted by Verrliit
and to Ten megs of chat log in four months, the reply was that quality is better than quantity. Further, although I have played and RP\'d a year\'s worth of hours and chat, in only four months, I was told that \"I think too highly of myself, without justification\".[/I]
I posted a tiny snippet of art.
I was told that there is no place for RP in a forum of a place whose reason for existence is RP.
Absolutely not. This forum has sections, and some sections are for RP and others are not. Putting things that belong into one section into any other section is SPAM. RP of the finest quality still is as much SPAM in a tech help section as is a bug report in an RP section.
This is another part of why I think you are superstitious: you think that you do not have to respect obvious rules and don\'t need to use things as they are meant to be used.
Your obvious disregard for the way that things are meant to be used in, board and ingame, fuels the impression that you either don\'t (want to) know or don\'t care. Of the available options \"ignorance\" and \"superstition\" I think \"superstition\" is the likely more fitting one.
Originally posted by Verrliit
Summary-
I posted my observations, thoughts and opinions on the current state of things in PS, how it is being used and why.
Responders tried to discredit me, and detract from me. I did not reply to insults, in kind.
You either kept justifying things that obviously are abuse, and did in no way even hint that you might merely be commenting on things, not condoning or doing them yourself. There was no insult targeted at you. I do not discredit you, I point out things that you are doing wrong, abusing or ignoring. That this takes away all the clout you might think you have gained, is a side-effect.
Originally posted by Verrliit
Addendum-
I see things differently than some do. I pointed to how players use what has already been built and why they do it that way. I did not speak of what should be, but what already is.
And made it sound like you condone it and do it yourself, despite obvious reasons not to do it.
Originally posted by Verrliit
(In deference to Seytra, I have omitted the RP that Seytra says is not supposed to be used here, and leave the pounce-kissing of Seytra, and other such inappropriate poking of fun at Seytra, including playfulness, silly imagery, and perhaps even a Knock Knock Joke or a rubber chicken, to the imagination of the reader, who is invited to PM me with things for later use, as long as they are not mean spirited, or personally insulting.)
I am here as player, fully OOC, as is the only way to be in any non RP forum section. I am not a character, neither are you. Therefore there cannot be any RP. Therefore the ridicule you are implying I deserve is completely OOC, i.e., you as player against me as player. There is no layer of RP that you could use to claim the attack isn\'t made at me as paerson or doesn\'t come from you as person. That you still try it is another bad sign.
Rubber chickens aren\'t IC as well, because 1) there is no rubber and 2) there are no chickens.
You show once again that you are unable or unwilling to separate things that must be separate, IC and OOC.
Originally posted by Verrliit
I continue to be,
The Dark Lady
Verrliit
In this section you are nothing but: Verrliit
Everyone knows that by it being written next to your post automatically. It is your forum name, which cuold just as well be \"12345\". You chose it to be the same as your ingame char\'s name, but that is irrelevant. The two still remain completely separate.
Clogging up the post by continously re-stating the obvious and dragging in things that don\'t belong here borders on spam. As I said, put it in your sig if you think it serves any purpose.
In summary: your way of arguing and later saying \"I just pointed it out, I never mentioned I do or condone things\", stating these things by implication instead of actually saying them reminds me a lot of Zanzibar, albeit being different in some respects.
@ r.guppy: Indeed, as I said on other threads, CB actually revolves around levelling and fighting in terms of game mechanics. Also, I fully agree that the possibility to PL in the aiding of levelling of others is a very real possibility in PS and very usable. More than just a few people have refined this to a high degree. Many guilds do this on a regular basis.
Still PLs (in both senses) will not be tolerated by me. At all. :tdown:
@ Eolius: The Ulbernaut example is why I said that what is working and available ingame should match up with what you are RPing. If you RP to kill an Ulbernaut that actually is ingame, then you should be able to actually kill it. Like interacting with people that aren\'t at your location. But you do not have to RP to kill that Ulbernaut. Therefore, you do not have to max out everything that is fight related.
-
Originally posted by r.guppy
(Quote)
Edit: About PL... Please don\'t use that word because frankly i\'ve seen no ocurences for situations that might be described by that word in PS. Levelling is different than powerlevelling. Powerlevelling means that a stronger person helps a weaker one improve his levell or stats by killing monsters that would be impossible for the second mentioned to kill. That would imply group sharing for experience (progression points or weappon stats) and that is impossible in PS. (end quote)
Am i reading this right its impossible?
An aspiring magi and I got chatting and he needed PP to attain his goal but was greatly hindered by the fact that he could only carry 5 in weight and was not even strong enough to kill rats, so I took pity on him and led him to the arena. (to the point) (we are not grouped)
I used what i call my training method, I attack monsters, stop after a few hits, monster is nearly dead, then the magi to be, attacks monster, as soon as he is allowed to. The monster still sees me as the bigger threat to him so keeps attacking me, the magi kills monster (which took a long time) gets PP and loot, (when he was full I picked up loot as it was dropped).
This went on till he had 500 PP, I then gave him 50 circles and said go train, he asked \"is it ok if I do not train strength (I had advised him to) as I only want to do magic as that is the role i want to play.\" (i said it was a gift to him and he was free to do with it as he saw fit.
So as you see you can help players gain PP and loot if you are willing to help them become what they want to be.
In RL a hunter would be away on the trail for days, weeks, even months on end with no contact with any other people. This role would suit players who have diffuculty communicating, so, to see what some people call PLs in this light, will serve to assist them in tolerating PLs.
Hehe, that way PL is umm.. possible but you should see other games ^_^
A friend of mine plays one of these and there the people can go afk and, without moving a finger, they can get to a respectfull levell by sitting on a rock.
My point was actualy that everybody cals everybody a PLer and if you look at the ocurances of this term on the forums you\'ll see that they are far more than the ocurances of this action ingame.
PS: About helping others get pp and money... I did that too with some people but don\'t tell anybody ^_^
-
Originally posted by Seytra
Originally posted by Verrliit
I posted a tiny snippet of art.
I was told that there is no place for RP in a forum of a place whose reason for existence is RP.
Absolutely not. This forum has sections, and some sections are for RP and others are not. Putting things that belong into one section into any other section is SPAM. RP of the finest quality still is as much SPAM in a tech help section as is a bug report in an RP section.
This is another part of why I think you are superstitious: you think that you do not have to respect obvious rules and don\'t need to use things as they are meant to be used.
Your obvious disregard for the way that things are meant to be used in, board and ingame, fuels the impression that you either don\'t (want to) know or don\'t care. Of the available options \"ignorance\" and \"superstition\" I think \"superstition\" is the likely more fitting one.
Originally posted by Verrliit
Summary-
I posted my observations, thoughts and opinions on the current state of things in PS, how it is being used and why.
Responders tried to discredit me, and detract from me. I did not reply to insults, in kind.
You either kept justifying things that obviously are abuse, and did in no way even hint that you might merely be commenting on things, not condoning or doing them yourself. There was no insult targeted at you. I do not discredit you, I point out things that you are doing wrong, abusing or ignoring. That this takes away all the clout you might think you have gained, is a side-effect.
Originally posted by Verrliit
Addendum-
I see things differently than some do. I pointed to how players use what has already been built and why they do it that way. I did not speak of what should be, but what already is.
And made it sound like you condone it and do it yourself, despite obvious reasons not to do it.
Originally posted by Verrliit
(In deference to Seytra, I have omitted the RP that Seytra says is not supposed to be used here, and leave the pounce-kissing of Seytra, and other such inappropriate poking of fun at Seytra, including playfulness, silly imagery, and perhaps even a Knock Knock Joke or a rubber chicken, to the imagination of the reader, who is invited to PM me with things for later use, as long as they are not mean spirited, or personally insulting.)
I am here as player, fully OOC, as is the only way to be in any non RP forum section. I am not a character, neither are you. Therefore there cannot be any RP. Therefore the ridicule you are implying I deserve is completely OOC, i.e., you as player against me as player. There is no layer of RP that you could use to claim the attack isn\'t made at me as paerson or doesn\'t come from you as person. That you still try it is another bad sign.
Rubber chickens aren\'t IC as well, because 1) there is no rubber and 2) there are no chickens.
You show once again that you are unable or unwilling to separate things that must be separate, IC and OOC.
Originally posted by Verrliit
I continue to be,
The Dark Lady
Verrliit
In this section you are nothing but: Verrliit
Everyone knows that by it being written next to your post automatically. It is your forum name, which cuold just as well be \"12345\". You chose it to be the same as your ingame char\'s name, but that is irrelevant. The two still remain completely separate.
Clogging up the post by continously re-stating the obvious and dragging in things that don\'t belong here borders on spam. As I said, put it in your sig if you think it serves any purpose.
In summary: your way of arguing and later saying \"I just pointed it out, I never mentioned I do or condone things\", stating these things by implication instead of actually saying them reminds me a lot of Zanzibar, albeit being different in some respects.
@ r.guppy: Indeed, as I said on other threads, CB actually revolves around levelling and fighting in terms of game mechanics. Also, I fully agree that the possibility to PL in the aiding of levelling of others is a very real possibility in PS and very usable. More than just a few people have refined this to a high degree. Many guilds do this on a regular basis.
Still PLs (in both senses) will not be tolerated by me. At all. :tdown:
@ Eolius: The Ulbernaut example is why I said that what is working and available ingame should match up with what you are RPing. If you RP to kill an Ulbernaut that actually is ingame, then you should be able to actually kill it. Like interacting with people that aren\'t at your location. But you do not have to RP to kill that Ulbernaut. Therefore, you do not have to max out everything that is fight related.
Seytra,
I am not fighting with you.
You have tried to attack me, in every way you could think of. You have attempted to turn the exchange between us into an argument over what the design goals are, or should be. You have placed me on trial, as character, player and person.
I have been respectful and courteous, throughout.
I even tried to be playful with you, but you have angrily responded that fun is not allowed here, and you would have none of it.
No insult you hurl at me, no accusation of wrongdoing, no amount of putting words in my mouth and then flaming me for them, not even comparing me to the banned Zanzibar/Shalmaneser, will make me look bad or foolish.
However loudly you proclaim how things are supposed to be, it will not make me wrong.
I don\'t need you to agree with me. If you don\'t like me, I am sorry, but not hurt.
I have no need to insult you, or to say things to make you look foolish and mean, Seytra.
And I have not done so.
I hope you understand that.
V.
-
Originally posted by Seytra
In summary: your way of arguing and later saying \"I just pointed it out, I never mentioned I do or condone things\", stating these things by implication instead of actually saying them reminds me a lot of Zanzibar, albeit being different in some respects.
Hey now, I know we don\'t always get along, but comparing me to Verrliit..... (joking)
Anyway, since I\'ve forgotten what incident you\'re refering to, it would be nice if you PMed me with what exactly it is you\'re thinking of. Oh, and I\'m only banned until tuesday Verr.... so see you then :-D
Originally posted by Valbrandr
Finesse Player (FP) - For those of you unaware... there is a third classification .. or atleast I will say there is . The Finesse players are a bit different. I dont know of as many in online gaming... most that I know are primarily involved with console games. But they play to disprove rules in a way. Its about staying at a lower level and still accomplishing whatever... conserving time and being efficient to the utmost degree or atleast attempt to continuely get better and learn tactics for every situation. Its about the challenge.
I like that. Personally, I don\'t buy into the PL-RP conflict. As long as you can make your character better, there will be people trying to make their character the best. And really, PLers do nothing to interfere with RPers. I think that there are other motives behind labelling people as power-levellers... but this has been discussed to death already. I don\'t supposed you could explain your concept of the \"FP\" in a bit more detail, for instance give an example of how a planeshift character could be an \"FP\"?
-
Originally posted by Verrliit
Seytra,
I am not fighting with you.
You have tried to attack me, in every way you could think of. You have attempted to turn the exchange between us into an argument over what the design goals are, or should be. You have placed me on trial, as character, player and person.
Be sure that I by far did not attack you by all means I can think of, only by those that seemed justified. Be also sure that I did not try to argue about what the design goals are or should be, because to me there is no need to argue about them at all: they are perfectly clear to me.
Yes, I turned this into an argument, because an argument is what a discussion is. But it is an argument on how PS is to be used or not to be used. And it so happens that I almost fully disagree with the way that you state as being acceptable and done by you.
Originally posted by Verrliit
I have been respectful and courteous, throughout.
I even tried to be playful with you, but you have angrily responded that fun is not allowed here, and you would have none of it.
A discussion is not RP, neither is it a play. It is there to exchange views and clarify things, if possible reach a consensus, not to obfuscate things by making statements one doesn\'t agree with. To back things up with reasons why the own arguments are valid, and to disprove the other\'s arguments if they seem invalid to one. I am not playing games in discussions, as they are dead serious business. And yes, I will have none of that \"being playful\" and \"fun\". If you must make fun of (parts of) the discussion, you need to state it as such so that it won\'t be mistaken for a contribution.
I have not seen you backing up your statements, neither have you tried to disprove mine. All I have seen you do is saying \"I am right no matter what\" and \"I am not bad regardless of what you say or claim.\".
Originally posted by Verrliit
No insult you hurl at me, no accusation of wrongdoing, no amount of putting words in my mouth and then flaming me for them, not even comparing me to the banned Zanzibar/Shalmaneser, will make me look bad or foolish.
I still see no insult I have used against you, save my statement of you being superstitious, which is something that I think is true (otherwise I wouldn\'t have stated it, obviously). Yes, I have accused you of doing wrong, and I stand by that. Also, I have never flamed you, that would have looked very different. I also did not put words in your mouth. What I however did was take what your statements clearly (at least to me) implied as tatements of their own. If you do not mean to say what your statements imply, then you need to make sure that your statements are clear and don\'t imply unintended thnings, or at least clarify the misimplication at the first possible occasion. None of that should be no problem for you, judging by how well you can use rhetorics. Also, without these implications, I see only very few actually relevant content in your posts.
Originally posted by Verrliit
However loudly you proclaim how things are supposed to be, it will not make me wrong.
Then why don\'t you bring on support that clearly proves that you are right? Or that things aren\'t supposed to be like what I think they are supposed to be? Or how the fact that things aren\'t like they are supposed to be justifies ignoring how they are supposed to be and carrying on keeping them the way they are and not how they are supposed to be?
Unless you strive to move things closer to what they are supposed to be, you are part of the problem and one of the reasons why things aren\'t as they are supposed to be.
Originally posted by Verrliit
I don\'t need you to agree with me. If you don\'t like me, I am sorry, but not hurt.
Be sure that I am not trying to hurt you. I am trying to get you to see the problems with what you do. But I obviously failed miserably. So in the end we seem to reach one consensus: this discussion is futile, a complete waste of a lot of time.
Originally posted by Verrliit
I have no need to insult you, or to say things to make you look foolish and mean, Seytra.
And I have not done so.
Well, compared to your self-proclaimed lack of need for that, you are doing quite a lot of it, judging by what you refer to as insult when coming from me. :rolleyes: The difference is that you phrase it in a patronizing (or possibly \"playful\" ) way and most often by implication (Like \"I have no need to (...) say things to make you look foolish and mean.\" ).
Originally posted by Verrliit
I hope you understand that.
Obviously I don\'t, and likely never will.
Edit: edited out smileys erroneously added by the forum software
-
I am totally absorbed in the debate you two are having; it reminds me so much of my Mum and Big Sister, who would go on like this from moment of meeting until they kissed goodbye. (wipes tear from eye as I fondly remembers my Mum who has passed on)
You two are different sides to a coin, and have passion in what you say, and will never see the others point of view, I ask you both to step back and try to see the others point, I do not expect you to agree, but just try to see through the eyes of each other for a moment.
It may help to understand your passions are the same, your goals are the same, just different in the way you go about it; as I see it, you both want the best for this game, just have a different ways of going about it. :D
-
Seytra,
The rest of us, in this thread, discuss and explore what might be done to have more fun in PS. We also enjoy each other\'s company, and we do what makes sense to us.
That is the point of most of the threads in the forum.
You give us orders. You tell us we can only play your way, and no other. You tell us that if you decide we are \"PLing\", you will not tolerate us. You threaten.
No amount of name-calling, jumping up and down, giving orders and bullying will force others to agree with you.
You have to make sense to them for that to happen.
In the final analysis, the players of PS will play the way they think is best. They will play the way they have the most fun.
Your opinion of whether what they do is right or wrong, is completely unimportant.
The only way you can get people to play the way you want, is if you make it more fun than any other way.
Good luck with that.
V.
-
Originally posted by zanzibar
Oh, and I\'m only banned until tuesday Verr.... so see you then :-D
Does this mean you were not supposed to be playing those alts while banned?
-
Originally posted by Verrliit
Originally posted by zanzibar
Oh, and I\'m only banned until tuesday Verr.... so see you then :-D
Does this mean you were not supposed to be playing those alts while banned?
I\'m \"allowed\" to start other accounts, and I think I know the incidents you\'re refering to. Honestly, I was around, but if we\'re thinking of the same people, they weren\'t me. I think I talked to you once in game using an alt, but straight up that was it. There\'s a lot of organization....
To be honest, I don\'t understand why you turned into such a crabby-pants. When you were new, I took you in and gave you a shot at jumping into the RP-spirit of things straight away. Then you turned that around on me, and used me as a stepping stone to gain advantage in other areas of the community. All in all I\'m tempted to have a image of you as a fickle person, but I\'m trying hard to give you the benifet of the doubt and say that it was all in-character, and you just let RP bleed into RL/OOC conversations. I\'m guilty of the same thing from time to time.
-
Originally posted by Verrliit
You give us orders. You tell us we can only play your way, and no other. You tell us that if you decide we are \"PLing\", you will not tolerate us. You threaten.
May I ask how I threaten anyone in here? Seriously, how can I threaten when I have no power whatsoever? How, if you don\'t care about what I think, and you also don\'t need me to agree with you, as you also stated, can me saying that I do not accept your behaviour be a threat to you? :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Verrliit
No amount of name-calling, jumping up and down, giving orders and bullying will force others to agree with you.
You see, I am not calling anyone names. Nor am I jumping up and down, or bullying anyone. And I am hardly in the position to give orders. I find it interesting how you increasingly accuse me of these things while not backing up your own points at all.
Originally posted by Verrliit
You have to make sense to them for that to happen.
In the final analysis, the players of PS will play the way they think is best. They will play the way they have the most fun.
Yes yes, they will. Just like in the tennis match it is perfectly acceptable to play soccer, \"because that is most fun to the soccer player\". As I have said, any game has rules, and the rules are there to maximize the enjoyment of everybody, not the enjoyment of a few. And this is exactly where you come in: to you, not adhering to the rules (which do make perfect sense to me and many others, by the way, in case you didn\'t read their posts), may be more fun than playing properly. However, in doing so, you decrease the fun of others, so this is why it cannot be tolerated.
It\'s really the same as with cheaters or exploiters: they break the game for everyone else, obviously having more fun doing so then not doing so, for whatever sad reasons. Nontheless, it is not tolerable. I seriously don\'t get how this can possibly not be understood by anyone. Why would PS, just because it it an online / computer game, not have rules to be adhered to while every other game (cards, chess, soccer, etc.) does?
Yes, there is no written explicit rule against /tell \"RPG\". However, there is the whole realism thing. And as has been beaten to death, /tell \"RP\" is by no means realistic, so that\'s the rule that applies and that you are violating in the selfish pursuit of maximised fun. :tdown:
Originally posted by Verrliit
Your opinion of whether what they do is right or wrong, is completely unimportant.
Obviously, it has to be to you, because you have no argument to counter mine. But you see, likewise, what you think is comparatively unimportant. In fact, by replying to you, I have given you way more attention than you deserve. I should have ignored you, and this is what I will be doing from now on.
Originally posted by Verrliit
The only way you can get people to play the way you want, is if you make it more fun than any other way.
If they are breaking rules, there are other ways that must be used, and I think those with the power to should enforce them. I know that they won\'t, but that doesn\'t make it better. It just lets you get away with it.
I find it notable that even zanzibar has issues with you. Different ones, but nontheless issues, while he himself is infinitely more \"open minded\" (if you will so) towards these things. Though maybe he spoilt you, I wouldn\'t know.
-
Originally posted by Seytra
You see, I am not calling anyone names. Nor am I jumping up and down, or bullying anyone.
Really? Oh, that\'s right, you only said it \"sounded\" like I cheated, and abused things, was superstitious and broke rules, etc, etc. That would be some kind of not calling names that I am unfamiliar with, I guess.
Originally posted by Seytra
Be sure that I by far did not attack you by all means I can think of, only by those that seemed justified.
You have worked very hard to make it seem that attacking me was justified.
Originally posted by Seytra
And I am hardly in the position to give orders.
Obviously you do not let that stop you from trying.
Originally posted by Seytra
I find it interesting how you increasingly accuse me of these things while not backing up your own points at all.
You attacked me. You were increasingly insulting. I have no need to argue these points. They not in doubt. Your attacks and insults are here. I do not need to repeat them again.
Originally posted by Seytra
I am not playing games in discussions, as they are dead serious business. And yes, I will have none of that \"being playful\" and \"fun\".
Then you are doomed to unhappiness, Seytra. Because being playful and having fun, is the whole point of PS. And the players that post here, will sometimes be playful and have fun, whether you are having any of it, or not.
Originally posted by Seytra
I should have ignored you, and this is what I will be doing from now on.
You are absolutely right. Attacking me was a very bad idea, and it did not go at all well.
Verrliit.
-
I see we\'re all done playing nicely here. Good show, then. :)