PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: Richard Siddall on August 26, 2005, 03:02:52 am
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For the sake of realism and roleplaying i think it would be great if you couldn\'t just walk through each others avatar. is this possible? I ask this because... well imagine, there you are walking along the road when in front of you three toughs block the way, they tell you that there is a toll, pay up or go back, currently you just walk straight through them before they\'ve even finished typing, however the scenario changes if you can\'t simple walk through them, do you pay? do you fight, do you turn back?
Our intrepid adventurer is now a bit peeved who does he call for? The authorities of course. The Watch, we should have a City Watch, miscreants can be reported and Watchmen dispatched to make an arrest, Watchman can be either NPCs or even PCs who have joined up, Watch houses around the city hold pictures of those criminals still at large, another job opportunity for those who wish to become bounty hunters.
As for punishments, Death for the more serious crimes (PC is wiped for ever) and has to generate another.
Incarceration (the designers will have to develop either a prison environment/building where the bad boys and girls are chucked)
Fines for minor crimes such as petty theft
Exile from certain cities within the world (forced to move elsewhere or take up the life of an outlaw)
just a thought really
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This has been discussed a few times before :) While it can add realism, players can also block important doorways and go AFK. While GMs may be called upon for help, to do so often would just be cumbersome.
Your idea is actually two in one - physical avatars, and prisons. The latter isn\'t well evolved - how would these prisons function, in your eyes? How long would the miscreants stay there, and how to prevent player boredom and loss of interest? And what about theft, how would that be made possible?
Death forever is a bad idea. People are screaming bloody murder because of a wipe of skills. Erase their entire character, and they will bite everyone\'s head off ;) Too many things wrong with this.
Maybe if you develop the ideas a bit more?
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Character to character collision detection will most obviously be added at some point. But yeah, as Karyuu pointed out, there\'d be issues doing it at this point in the game. (aka: we need an AFK-booter and better ways to settle player disputes; shoving maybe?...)
On the subject of prisons and whatnot: I actually agree with you Richard, though only for the cases of serious offenses. It\'d be more RP than banning, to have them just logon in a prison till they are likely to stop griefing or being an ass or whathaveyou. :P And every now and again, there\'s a player who just cannot be allowed to continue to play the game. A public execution to scare the newbies would be interesting... :D
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Well at some point upon walking into a character you can use a button to shove him.. :D And the same button would be used to shove tables and boxes etc :D that would be awesome.
Yes shoving..
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The time that a character is in the prison does not have to be very long fro 15 minutes to 24 hours, and be more of a warning, and each time the character is put into a prison the time would grew longer.
But another intresting idea would be forced labor :rolleyes:
A player must collect a certain amount of some resource or build something or make some weapons... whatever skills a character has.
*thinks of several players in a fenced yard with chain and iron ball around the ankle, and breaking rocks* :D
And the physical barriers, would they apply to all objects?
now it would be \"funny\" to drop some Clacker Meat(with dwarf model) everywere and walking becomes a pain in the... of course one can pick them up, but it is always possible to put them several in one place...
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Originally posted by Mortac
Clacker Meat(with dwarf model)
Crap... I thought that was fixed?...
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He\'s right, clacker meat, at least still shows a dwarf model when dropped.
Perhaps the bugtracker says it\'s fixed, but we can\'t notice it because it\'s sheduled for next update?
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Originally posted by Mortac
now it would be funny to drop some Clacker Meat(with dwarf model) everywere and walking becomes a pain in the... of course one can pick them up, but it is always possible to put them several in one place...
That, my dear, would be a bannable offense.
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Originally posted by Mortac
And the physical barriers, would they apply to all objects?
now it would be \"funny\" to drop some Clacker Meat(with dwarf model) everywere and walking becomes a pain in the... of course one can pick them up, but it is always possible to put them several in one place...
That is the definition of \'fun\' to you? Do you do this in your spare time often? I find this odd, post details please. 8o
As far as making things more realistic by adding collision detection (that\'s what this is called) to the models, I have a full, hearty :tdown: . Why? Well for one it would slow everyone down in two ways. One, physical movement would be impeded of course. That seems to be in your definition of fun, but for others this is certainly seen as annoying and only that. Two, all the collision just may make some lag. This is iffy, but it could still happen.
I for one find urinating fun. Should we add that in game too? :P
Edit: Wrong quote X(
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Well Kixie... There has been a bathroom suggestion.. ;)
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Originally posted by Karyuu
Death forever is a bad idea. People are screaming bloody murder because of a wipe of skills. Erase their entire character, and they will bite everyone\'s head off ;) Too many things wrong with this.
It\'s actually a good idea if finished off well. You\'d be choosing between short life of an adventurer and long life of a farmer or so. But that would require lots of changes in the system (like characters starting with power high enough to take care of themselves and no such thing as growing 1000% stronger) and would mean change of the player base (although most likely to rp-oriented), so in the end that\'s still a big no :P
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A way to do this may be so have temporary \'blocking\'. A guarding skill perhaps, so it would take hard work and much money to achieve. That way you kill three birds with one stone; creating and RP situation, a job opportunity, and not allowing just any fresh off the boat nooblin to use it for ill.
There would have to be safeguards also. One being that a PC couldn\'t just be parked somewhere in \'guard mode\'. If another character addressed them, they would have a certain amount of time to respond, or collision would be turned off and anyone could pass. Another issue is that of \'shoving\'. Strength and agility would play a factor in this aspect. A weak character would never be able to push a Kran out of the way.
Just a few thoughts.
And Kixie...no.
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Originally posted by Kixie
That is the definition of \'fun\' to you? Do you do this in your spare time often? I find this odd, post details please. 8o
Ups forgot to put \" \".
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you also forgot your [/i]
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Originally posted by Draklar
[...] so in the end that\'s still a big no :P
Well said ^^
The problem with permanent death is that it won\'t be permanent unless a player will not be allowed to recreate the same character again. If this is the case, consider:
- The number of players who have complained in the past that many names are already taken (and this was months and months ago);
- The sheer frustration players are going to experience after making not only a strong and viable character using game mechanics, but a roleplaying work of art, only to have it destroyed forever in a single battle.
And if players will be able to recreate the same character many times, death isn\'t permanent, but a bigger nonRP hassle. How does it change from the current \"I thought you died...\" \"Ah yes, well, I was given a path back to the living by the Gods\"? Then instead of a long trip back from an in-game death realm, the player will have to go through the character creation process over and over, starting again with nearly nothing as players start, experiencing mini-wipes with each death.
And how mind-numblingly frustrating would it be to accidently die from fall damage? :P
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Originally posted by Karyuu
Originally posted by Draklar
[...] so in the end that\'s still a big no :P
...The problem with permanent death is... blah blah blah... I\'m really too cute for my own good... blah blah blah...
Wait, I thought the name of this thread was \"players as physical barriers\"?
:P
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*shakes fist at Kixie* :P
Richard Siddall also proposed this idea:
As for punishments, Death for the more serious crimes (PC is wiped for ever) and has to generate another.
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Originally posted by Karyuu
*shakes fist at Kixie* :P
Richard Siddall also proposed this idea:
As for punishments, Death for the more serious crimes (PC is wiped for ever) and has to generate another.
Ok ok, BESIDES the thread creator mentioning it as a miniscule, out of the way request that makes absolutely no sense, completely shattering any sense of roleplay that is present in planeshift atm with the death realm.
Besides THAT. :P
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I would agree that if players can be physical barriers, then there would be a massive player evolution in the game. Here\'s how I see it. If people can block doorways, block paths and demand tolls etc. then we instantly have an actual in-game \"evil\" (instead of guilds and people that claim they are evil but cannot act as such). By having evil, we will then ahve to have \"good\" people that will help by challenging these players and defeating them. Hence, the \"good guilds\" will actually be able to do good in the world by defeating evil.
To me, having player barriers would be awesome. The GMs would simply have to make it perfectly clear that they would not necessarily get involved, the person being blocked would have to find others (in an rp way) to help him.
Xirius
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Of course, there would need to be \"evil\" spells and quests that would trigger a giant worldwide acopalypse and the good guys would have to defeat the Evil guys to restore peace :D
Mabye there could also be a low-level spell that allows you to pass through other people.
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Still don\'t like it. There are characters that prefer not to use magic for various RP reasons, and there will be people who will block but refuse to accept a challenge. There will be people who will block for the sole reason of blocking, no RP solution required.
I think there are too many openings for abuse.
... x_X
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hm well one solution could be to have players represent something lighter than brick walls, like something that can be pushed/showed etc. I\'m thinking rag doll physics or the like. Of course thats too high tech to put in an MMORPG, but maybe something a bit similar. Like people can push eachother around.. Hm, just an idea.
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then you\'d have the case of someone goes idle to go put the laundry in the washing machine, and someone comes along and pushes them into a hole, or a pit of angry rats, a glitch and the likes.
it\'s all a nice idea, but i dont particularly want to log on and have a few hundred people scream at me to move someone from a door way, or pick people one by one out of a pile covering the laanx temple well ^^
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The only game I can think of that had something similar implemented is GuildWars. I believe characters could nudge past each other, often pushing a few out of the way of an entry to some place, if they were standing in front of it. Then again, if you have two players running at each other and pushing, there\'s no real solution... is there?
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Well if the blocking guy was running, that means he would be at his computer so.. unless he was wanting to be overly obnoxious..
And also the poerson wanting to go in could just sidestep and the blocker would go running off before he could stop. Then the other guy could walk into the doorway :D
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One way or another, player-to-player collision detection will be implemented... eventually. It\'s simply ridiculous without it. The most likely solution is the ability to shove a player when forcefully walking into them, and have no way to prevent that. (Imagine trying to push one pencil with another, point to point... you\'re not going to do it; you\'ll both move aside.) Then players aren\'t all ghosts, but they can\'t block stuff very well either. Simple in concept, and fully effective, but not easy to implement. And with the state of other things in the game, a long way off.
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mmhm, then spawns will have to be about 3 meteres above ground, wouldnt want people getting stuck in people, which also brings up what if gm\'s needed to teleport someone, they\'d get stuck inside o.O
well if anything, i say we should work on GM\'s being able to move people by click and drag in a special mode, also able to throw people around \"the wrath of Talad launches Demarthl against a wall like a ragdoll, breaking every bone in his body with such power\" and then i\'d die :|
fun! XD
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Hahaha lol.. :P
Well when 2 players try to teleport (from DR too) to the same point the server could offset the pos so the characters don\'t intersect. Which brings me to the problem.. what about enki tails and klyros wings? those woule really get annoying and in the way..
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Originally posted by Demarthl
mmhm, then spawns will have to be about 3 meteres above ground, wouldnt want people getting stuck in people
Yep. It\'d have to check the spawn location for potential obstacles before spawning, then pick another if it\'s unavailable. Quite doable, but it takes work. Basically, a perfect example of why no one has bothered to enable collision detection yet. :P
Originally posted by Neryam
what about enki tails and klyros wings? those woule really get annoying and in the way..
The wings would probably just extend the collision box, and the tail would probably just be outside of the box and ignored.
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Originally posted by Neryam
Yes shoving..
Yes, shoving is the answer.
--- Runs away from bad joke.
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Hmm, even with shoving, given sufficient dedication and time you can still abuse it, especially if you team up. It\'s a fact that what can be abused, will be abused. There is nothing that furthers people\'s creativity more than trying to hurt someone else. Thusly, things must be designed to be not abusable, or at least make the abuse so hard that it takes very long time and very much effort, and also can be easily traced back to the abuser. While shoving might account for the first two, it doesn\'t solve the latter. Logging shoving attempts is an option, if you compress it to report shoving only when done more than 4 times within 5 minutes, and also just count the number (like X shoved you 10 times). That way, it can easily be proven that someone was being shoved in an attempt to grief.
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Everything has the potential for abuse. If 5 people team up to grief with shoving... well... they\'re morons. And they can only keep it up for so long. If they continue to be a problem, other actions would need to be taken. (unfortunately, logging wouldn\'t be that useful... hard to log justifications; we\'d need situation info)
But, player conflicts in general need more ways to be settled. :P
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Originally posted by DaveG
Everything has the potential for abuse. If 5 people team up to grief with shoving... well... they\'re morons. And they can only keep it up for so long. If they continue to be a problem, other actions would need to be taken. (unfortunately, logging wouldn\'t be that useful... hard to log justifications; we\'d need situation info)
But, player conflicts in general need more ways to be settled. :P
There is no way to get me to accept open PvP. That is being abused all the time everywhere.
Yes, almost everything can be abused. However, this most definitely does not mean that things that can be easily abused should be put in anyway, neither does it mean that nothing needs to be done to prevent abuse.
As for the logging: the situation info would be clearly have to be provided by the players, as untrustworthy as that is. You might log death, though, to have added proof.
You can\'t just say \"if they do they\'re morons\", because obviously they will consider themselves very sly or funny or have some other purpose, like protecting their spawn camping turf. Seeing how hard the tracing of killstealing is, there must be extreme care taken to not add another way to hog spawns or grief players.
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Originally posted by Seytra
There is no way to get me to accept open PvP. That is being abused all the time everywhere.
I believe some form of limited open PvP system can be implemented with minimal risk of abuse, or at least such that it counteracts other forms of abuse. (ie allows people to settle grief fights one way or another) But yes, I agree, this sort of a thing is usually screwed up. Massive quantities of countermeasures would need to be created, and it would be a big undertaking. But I used the <>-ness because this discussion is off-topic, and I don\'t feel like arguing my points here. :P
Originally posted by Seytra
Yes, almost everything can be abused. However, this most definitely does not mean that things that can be easily abused should be put in anyway, neither does it mean that nothing needs to be done to prevent abuse.
Agreed. A feature should only be allowed if its potential for use distinctly outweighs its potential for abuse. I think collision detection (in association with shoving and debug measures) is too needed to do without, and can be implemented with only minor headaches... eventually.
Originally posted by Seytra
As for the logging: the situation info would be clearly have to be provided by the players, as untrustworthy as that is. You might log death, though, to have added proof.
You can\'t just say \"if they do they\'re morons\", because obviously they will consider themselves very sly or funny or have some other purpose, like protecting their spawn camping turf. Seeing how hard the tracing of killstealing is, there must be extreme care taken to not add another way to hog spawns or grief players.
This sort of immature junk is annoyingly hard to keep track of. With everything going on, it\'d be hard to make the server detect such things without logging everything and analyzing it constantly. (which is not an option; to much drain on the server) So yes, this sort of a thing should be player/GM controlled. It wouldn\'t be too hard, and would simply be unavoidable. Some sort of a risk is involved with all features, and I think dealing with the occasional moron is a valid price.
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I\'ve played more that a dozen MMORPG\'s and only one, EQ, had players as impassable objects to other players....and it was used to block doors, paths etc. simply to annoy other players. OK that\'s not quite true. People used it to block access to a spawn until they\'d killed itto complete a quest or get a rare item. Frankly, that is something a burly group of adventurers might really due. However, the potential for abuse is so high, I think it out weighs any addition to the \"reality\" of the game. Even shoving will be used to push other players off cliffs etc. unless there is some sort of semi-collidable positioning and animation that keeps players from actually being moved while they are being \"shoved\".
Someone in this thread already postulated what has been my First Law of MMORPG\'s for many years- \"Anything that can be done, will be done\" The Second law is, of course, -\"The chance of any particular female character actually being female is smaller that the square root of Pi\" :)
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Originally posted by Ivniciix
players as impassable objects to other players
No, I\'m not advocating that. You\'re misunderstanding me. I just don\'t want to be able to stand inside other players and NPCs... Again, I will use my analogy: Try pushing to pencils against each other, point to point. No \"pushing\" is going to happen; they\'ll be shoved aside. Anyone standing in the way of anything, will not be a plausible obstacle. And to push someone over the edge of a cliff, would require 4 or 5 people working together. The victim could escape by running between 2 people in the group, and forcing them aside. (I\'m thinking now, that some sort of maximum shoving distance could also be added to help stop this.)
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Matrix Online has a cute animation where players actually do shove incidental NPC\'s out of the way as they walk down the street. The real problem is, as stated, the grief aspect of either blocking or pushing people off cliffs...or interupting their ranged or melee combat in some way too, I suppose. If your simply asking for an animation and that players not be able to \"stand inside\" each other, I\'m all for it from a visual reality standpoint. The trick is to not have it actually cause a player to either be moved by pushing or blocked/impeded by groups of players. How easy or hard this is to do is entirely beyond my expertise or knowledge however. Good Luck on this one though.
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I\'d like to thank everyone for their responses to the post, every one of them. the sarky ones and the critical ones. Thinking about what has been said i have to agree with the argument that people could and will abuse such a system for their own gain. As a compromise would the system work if NPCs were solid and had the ability to block the way till negotiated with or defeated in combat?
Please forgive me for putting more than one wish/idea in my opening post. I started rambling.